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Re: [Meditation Society of America] Enlightenment or Grace

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  • sandeep chatterjee
    ... The term gift has been used to point that there is no casual linkage. That it is not an end destination of a process happening in time. ... There is an
    Message 1 of 35 , Feb 8, 2008
      --- westwindwood2003 <westwindwood2003@...>

      > > Witness, surrender all effort, and fill with this
      > most precious
      > gift of Grace.
      > Enlightenment is a gift.

      The term "gift" has been used to point that there is
      no casual linkage.

      That it is not an end destination of a process
      happening in time.

      > One-day enlightenment just
      > happened and I
      > cannot say I deserved it or had any idea of what I
      > was getting into.

      There is an "I" still left to wonder whether it
      deserved or not?

      To wonder what is being got into?

      > Someone told me that while in a state of
      > concentration that is with
      > the calculating mind bored and so shut down, just
      > make my mind blank
      > and this would be meditation.

      A "blanked mind" needs someone to note and conclude of
      the blanked mind.

      Meditation is not the blanking of the mind, for the
      blanking of the mind is more mind-stuff.

      Meditation is cessation of all conceptualizing,
      including the conceptualizing of a mind which needs to
      be blanked.

      Including even the conceptualizing of something as a
      state of meditation, which can be achieved, attained,
      obtained, experienced, related to, defined, explained
      benefited from.... et al.

      Further, since the "end of conceptualizing" is yet
      another concept...

      ...The absence of the presence of conceptualizing AND
      the absence of the absence of the presence of

      > I found out later
      > that this is the
      > intellectual approach to enlightenment and is
      > considered dangerous
      > compared to the devotional approach, which is not
      > dangerous.

      There has been some posts recently on the danger of
      meditation and the correct way etc etc.

      There is nothing as danger.

      For there is nothing as inappropriate in Life.

      Yes, actions bring consequences.

      But whatever be the state of this moment, could not
      have been any different to what it is, for all the
      Shivas on Mount Kailash.

      So in playfullness, explore.... knowing in childlike
      innocence, that there is nothing which can happen
      which was not meant to be as so.

      If there is a sense of discomfort or dis-ease, cease
      whetver is casuing the discomfort.
      Or boldly dive further into the discomfort.

      All the nonsense of posed dangers with paths or the
      incorrect doings in such paths are mere clever devices
      to atttract and build a fan club.

      After all the mind is least interested in something
      which is safe and boring.

      There has to be a hint of danger, to attract.

      And with the suggestion of the danger, is the birth of
      the "expert", the "Guru", without whom you will go mad
      etc etc.

      See through the con job.

      > The
      > intellectual approach is considered dangerous
      > because one can be distracted by occult powers.
      The >devotional approach is God's will

      If everything is God's will, "getting distracted by
      occult powers, or an attractive male/female specimen
      walking by " is not God's will?

      > be done and offering up some particular desire found
      > at this point in
      > my development, like what do I do God with this
      > craving I am
      > experiencing right now? How do I proceed with this
      > problem? It's a
      > letting go of an ego driven desire I am
      > experiencing. Then God gives
      > a direct answer, it just comes into the mind. The
      > blank mind
      > approach is a ceasing of the bubbling up of the ego
      > driven desire or
      > problem into the consciousness. In each of these
      > two approaches to
      > enlightenment, there is a letting go of this desire.

      The need to let go of a desire is yet another desire.

      Thus a cul de sac.

      Round and round the same mulberry bush.

      Desire is an arising thought with maybe an associated
      senstation in the body-mind complex.

      Which disipates in time.

      There is no issue whatsover with an arising thought,
      any arising thought.

      The issue with an arising thought arises with the
      sense of a stake associated with the arising thought.

      For whom is this sense of a stake?

      For whom are approaches to enlightenment, of

      For whom is the very concept of something like
      "enlightenment" of relevance, of interest?

      > Now this relationship with the enlightenment process
      > goes on for a
      > few decades, the giving up, and eventually all the
      > cravings dissolve,
      > burn up, and become nothing.

      It is an experience to which, a relating is possible.

      Relating in the sense of able to define, refine,
      describe, concretize, expand, amplify etc.

      An experience, any experience... having a duration of
      maybe minutes or maybe of a thousand years, is a
      durational occurrance in time and no matter how
      profound or profane...

      ... is mind stuff.

      That to which no relating is possible, for there is
      none separated......left to relate...

      ...that is neither an occurrence,

      nor a non-occurrence.

      > If you want a good
      > description of this,
      > read The Dark Night of the Soul by Saint John of the
      > Cross. He got
      > the material from Jewish mysticism, by the way. Now
      > a little hint
      > here, Dark Night does not mean a hard time is in
      > store. Rather it
      > means that ones desires are extinguished and dark
      > means there is
      > nothing left to desire. Dark means craving is gone.
      > At this point
      > meditation shifts and one slowly takes on the nature
      > of God and again
      > this takes decades, or maybe it is lifetimes. I am
      > not sure about
      > how long this takes. Maybe it does not matter how
      > long it takes as
      > long as the journey eventually ends.

      As soon as time is accepted to be a reality and thus
      concepts of journey, end-destinations, the traveler to
      traverse the journey etc etc....

      ....mind has been birthed,

      the separative, individuated entity is birthed.

      For this sense of the entity, it is only round and
      round the mulberry bush.

      Changing mulberry bushes, does not cease the running
    • sandeep chatterjee
      Yes. However since even the state of deep sleep is a durational occurrence, it is also within the gestalt of time. The state of deep sleep has a start and an
      Message 35 of 35 , Feb 14, 2008
        However since even the state of deep sleep is a durational occurrence, it is also within the gestalt of time.
        The state of deep sleep has a start and an end.

        That which is trancendental to even the state of deep sleep is.....

        yeshwanthi vasudevan wrote:
        > But Sandeep, isn't that like a deep-sleep state. While I'am asleep (in deep-sleep) there is no form, identity or any past, present or future related to that identity of "me", while I'am in a deep-sleep.   While I'am in a deep sleep, there is no "me" to be aware of the fact that there is no "me" (along with all the baggage that the "me" carries with itself, such as form, identity, past, present future etc).    In other words, while I'am in a deep sleep, I don't even know if I'am alive or dead.   sandeep chatterjee <sandeep1960@ yahoo.com> wrote: Jeff Belyea <jeff@mindgoal. com> wrote: --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com , sandeep chatterjee <sandeep1960@ ...> wrote: > Changing mulberry bushes, does not cease the running > around. This true, but it is through the running around, and finding of just the right mulberry bush in just the right light that entices the mind to cease running and
        conceptualizing. ------------ The mind can never cease running or conceptualizing. The very presence of the sense of conceptualizing. .. infers the existence of the
        > mind. The very sense that such and such act which may be enfolding as the moment, moment to moment will get "me" such and such, infers the existence of the "me". The very presence of a sense of enticement, no matter about what........ ..is the sense of the mind. The very presence of a sense of a stake (and enticement is nothing but a stake), no matter about what........ ..is the sense of the mind. Thus the mind can never know or experience the state (so to say) of the absence of the presence of conceptualizing. And thus the state....... ....(to use a mere term).. . of the absence of the presence of conceptualizing and the absence of this very absence..... .....has no cognition of a mind........ ... let alone a mind  to be enticed to cease.   Awakened.... ......there is nothing which is not already
        > awakened. Nor is there anything which is awakened either.   And yet this post as a pointing over cyber space....... ... happens.   .
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