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Re: [Meditation Society of America] Mambo #5 with God

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  • Bruce Morgen
    ... I see you as not ignorant, but perhaps playing somewhat fast and loose with the word knowledge, which essentially means stored information. As an
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 17, 2008
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      Jeff Belyea wrote:
      > In response to Bob and Bruce's
      > response to Era's post about
      > "knowing God"...
      >
      > Here's my "little bit of this,
      > little bit of that" from my dance:
      >
      > >From The Old Testament
      > (repeated in the New One
      > and reference several times
      > as "having come to pass"):
      >
      > "Behold, the days come,
      > saith the LORD, that I
      > will make a a new covenant...
      >
      > I will put my law in their
      > inward parts, and write it in
      > their hearts; ...
      >
      > they shall all know me."
      >
      > So, if the wise say that
      > they know that God is
      > unknowable, they err. And
      > they are wise in their
      > own mind - which is
      > incidently the major block
      > to enlightenment.
      >
      > Enlightenment IS coming
      > into the knowledgable
      > presence of God..
      > as promised.
      >
      > I know God.
      >
      > Formally introduced
      > July 21, many years ago,
      > at about 9:30am.
      >
      > And we continue to
      > stay in touch.
      >
      > Call me ignorant if
      > you must. God knows.
      >
      I see you as not "ignorant,"
      but perhaps playing somewhat
      fast and loose with the word
      "knowledge," which essentially
      means "stored information."

      As an illustration, can you
      tell me what it is you "know"
      of this "God?"
    • Jeff Belyea
      ... It is the inadequacy of words to explain the fuller meaning of Knowledge in the context of my earlier post that makes it seem as a fast and loose dance.
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 17, 2008
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
        <editor@...> wrote:
        >
        > Jeff Belyea wrote:
        > > In response to Bob and Bruce's
        > > response to Era's post about
        > > "knowing God"...
        > >
        > > Here's my "little bit of this,
        > > little bit of that" from my dance:
        > >
        > > >From The Old Testament
        > > (repeated in the New One
        > > and reference several times
        > > as "having come to pass"):
        > >
        > > "Behold, the days come,
        > > saith the LORD, that I
        > > will make a a new covenant...
        > >
        > > I will put my law in their
        > > inward parts, and write it in
        > > their hearts; ...
        > >
        > > they shall all know me."
        > >
        > > So, if the wise say that
        > > they know that God is
        > > unknowable, they err. And
        > > they are wise in their
        > > own mind - which is
        > > incidently the major block
        > > to enlightenment.
        > >
        > > Enlightenment IS coming
        > > into the knowledgable
        > > presence of God..
        > > as promised.
        > >
        > > I know God.
        > >
        > > Formally introduced
        > > July 21, many years ago,
        > > at about 9:30am.
        > >
        > > And we continue to
        > > stay in touch.
        > >
        > > Call me ignorant if
        > > you must. God knows.
        > >
        > I see you as not "ignorant,"
        > but perhaps playing somewhat
        > fast and loose with the word
        > "knowledge," which essentially
        > means "stored information."
        >
        > As an illustration, can you
        > tell me what it is you "know"
        > of this "God?"
        >

        It is the inadequacy of words
        to explain the fuller meaning
        of "Knowledge" in the context
        of my earlier post that makes it
        seem as a fast and loose dance.

        Knowledge becomes secondary stored
        information when it enters
        the necessarily dualistic world
        of mental reflection and any
        attemp at "telling".

        God can be Known, but God
        cannot be explained in words;
        only Known by direct experience...
        which, to be redundant, is
        beyond words.

        Thanks, Bruce. Always
        enjoy your perspective.

        Jeff
      • Bruce Morgen
        ... True. ... True. ... Iow, unknowable -- and capitalizing that K doesn t change that fact. Please consider that fortunate realized folks still have the
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 17, 2008
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          Jeff Belyea wrote:
          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
          > <editor@...> wrote:
          >
          >> Jeff Belyea wrote:
          >>
          >>> In response to Bob and Bruce's
          >>> response to Era's post about
          >>> "knowing God"...
          >>>
          >>> Here's my "little bit of this,
          >>> little bit of that" from my dance:
          >>>
          >>> >From The Old Testament
          >>> (repeated in the New One
          >>> and reference several times
          >>> as "having come to pass"):
          >>>
          >>> "Behold, the days come,
          >>> saith the LORD, that I
          >>> will make a a new covenant...
          >>>
          >>> I will put my law in their
          >>> inward parts, and write it in
          >>> their hearts; ...
          >>>
          >>> they shall all know me."
          >>>
          >>> So, if the wise say that
          >>> they know that God is
          >>> unknowable, they err. And
          >>> they are wise in their
          >>> own mind - which is
          >>> incidently the major block
          >>> to enlightenment.
          >>>
          >>> Enlightenment IS coming
          >>> into the knowledgable
          >>> presence of God..
          >>> as promised.
          >>>
          >>> I know God.
          >>>
          >>> Formally introduced
          >>> July 21, many years ago,
          >>> at about 9:30am.
          >>>
          >>> And we continue to
          >>> stay in touch.
          >>>
          >>> Call me ignorant if
          >>> you must. God knows.
          >>>
          >>>
          >> I see you as not "ignorant,"
          >> but perhaps playing somewhat
          >> fast and loose with the word
          >> "knowledge," which essentially
          >> means "stored information."
          >>
          >> As an illustration, can you
          >> tell me what it is you "know"
          >> of this "God?"
          >>
          >>
          >
          > It is the inadequacy of words
          > to explain the fuller meaning
          > of "Knowledge" in the context
          > of my earlier post that makes it
          > seem as a fast and loose dance.
          >

          True.

          > Knowledge becomes secondary stored
          > information when it enters
          > the necessarily dualistic world
          > of mental reflection and any
          > attempt at "telling".
          >

          True.

          > God can be Known, but God
          > cannot be explained in words;
          > only Known by direct experience...
          > which, to be redundant, is
          > beyond words.
          >

          Iow, "unknowable" -- and
          capitalizing that "K"
          doesn't change that fact.

          Please consider that
          fortunate "realized" folks
          still have the failings of
          incarnate life to deal with.
          Religious conditioning is
          especially problematic and
          can easily lead to mistaking
          the ecstatic response of our
          personal meat puppets to the
          unknowable (aka "Holy
          Spirit") with "knowing God"
          or some such -- our heads
          are full of old scripture
          vouchsafing this knowledge
          to us, so in the aftermoment
          ego "backfills" the miracle
          of realization with that
          stuff and we are quite prone
          to claiming that we now
          "know God." It sure sounds
          good from the pulpit too!

          > Thanks, Bruce. Always
          > enjoy your perspective.
          >

          Right back atcha, Jeff!

          > Jeff
          >
          Much love -- Bruce
        • Jeff Belyea
          ... Interesting syntax - ego backfilling vs new enlightened understanding of scripture. There would be more of a case for the headroom filled with scripture
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 17, 2008
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
            <editor@...> wrote:
            >
            > Jeff Belyea wrote:
            > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
            > > <editor@> wrote:
            > >
            > >> Jeff Belyea wrote:
            > >>
            > >>> In response to Bob and Bruce's
            > >>> response to Era's post about
            > >>> "knowing God"...
            > >>>
            > >>> Here's my "little bit of this,
            > >>> little bit of that" from my dance:
            > >>>
            > >>> >From The Old Testament
            > >>> (repeated in the New One
            > >>> and reference several times
            > >>> as "having come to pass"):
            > >>>
            > >>> "Behold, the days come,
            > >>> saith the LORD, that I
            > >>> will make a a new covenant...
            > >>>
            > >>> I will put my law in their
            > >>> inward parts, and write it in
            > >>> their hearts; ...
            > >>>
            > >>> they shall all know me."
            > >>>
            > >>> So, if the wise say that
            > >>> they know that God is
            > >>> unknowable, they err. And
            > >>> they are wise in their
            > >>> own mind - which is
            > >>> incidently the major block
            > >>> to enlightenment.
            > >>>
            > >>> Enlightenment IS coming
            > >>> into the knowledgable
            > >>> presence of God..
            > >>> as promised.
            > >>>
            > >>> I know God.
            > >>>
            > >>> Formally introduced
            > >>> July 21, many years ago,
            > >>> at about 9:30am.
            > >>>
            > >>> And we continue to
            > >>> stay in touch.
            > >>>
            > >>> Call me ignorant if
            > >>> you must. God knows.
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >> I see you as not "ignorant,"
            > >> but perhaps playing somewhat
            > >> fast and loose with the word
            > >> "knowledge," which essentially
            > >> means "stored information."
            > >>
            > >> As an illustration, can you
            > >> tell me what it is you "know"
            > >> of this "God?"
            > >>
            > >>
            > >
            > > It is the inadequacy of words
            > > to explain the fuller meaning
            > > of "Knowledge" in the context
            > > of my earlier post that makes it
            > > seem as a fast and loose dance.
            > >
            >
            > True.
            >
            > > Knowledge becomes secondary stored
            > > information when it enters
            > > the necessarily dualistic world
            > > of mental reflection and any
            > > attempt at "telling".
            > >
            >
            > True.
            >
            > > God can be Known, but God
            > > cannot be explained in words;
            > > only Known by direct experience...
            > > which, to be redundant, is
            > > beyond words.
            > >
            >
            > Iow, "unknowable" -- and
            > capitalizing that "K"
            > doesn't change that fact.
            >
            > Please consider that
            > fortunate "realized" folks
            > still have the failings of
            > incarnate life to deal with.
            > Religious conditioning is
            > especially problematic and
            > can easily lead to mistaking
            > the ecstatic response of our
            > personal meat puppets to the
            > unknowable (aka "Holy
            > Spirit") with "knowing God"
            > or some such -- our heads
            > are full of old scripture
            > vouchsafing this knowledge
            > to us, so in the aftermoment
            > ego "backfills" the miracle
            > of realization with that
            > stuff and we are quite prone
            > to claiming that we now
            > "know God." It sure sounds
            > good from the pulpit too!
            >
            > > Thanks, Bruce. Always
            > > enjoy your perspective.
            > >
            >
            > Right back atcha, Jeff!
            >
            > > Jeff
            > >
            > Much love -- Bruce
            >

            Interesting syntax -
            ego backfilling vs new
            enlightened understanding
            of scripture. There would
            be more of a case for the
            headroom filled with
            scripture that is used
            by the ego to backfill,
            if the backfilling were
            model specific (the home
            of the fundamentalist),
            but when the knowledge
            with a capital K (a literary
            and graphic design convention,
            I know) reveals a core
            understanding in all
            spiritual traditions
            (the mystical path),
            the case is less
            convincing.

            The meat puppets who
            think morph into meat
            puppets who have a
            pseudo-spiritual experience?

            Cosmic, man.

            I'll take theist language,
            thanks. Sure sounds better
            from the pulpit - especially
            when it comes from the
            mystic heart of Knowledge.

            Thanks,

            Cosmic Man

            PS: Just had flashback
            to the punch and Judy days.
          • Bruce Morgen
            Jeff knows this, but just for clarity: I m not questioning his authenticity, just noting what I see as the pitfalls of adopting theistic expression. We all
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 17, 2008
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              Jeff knows this, but just for
              clarity: I'm not questioning
              his authenticity, just noting
              what I see as the pitfalls of
              adopting theistic expression.
              We all have to weigh pulpit
              impact vs. possibly misleading
              or occluding effects, and we
              tend to make our calls based
              on conditioning -- both the
              environmental conditioning of
              our upbringings (cum other
              formative experiences) and the
              biological/genetic conditioning
              that determines our places on
              the bhakta-jnana spectrum.

              Thanks for the dialogue, Jeff!


              Jeff Belyea wrote:
              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
              > <editor@...> wrote:
              >
              >> Jeff Belyea wrote:
              >>
              >>> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
              >>> <editor@> wrote:
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>> Jeff Belyea wrote:
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>>> In response to Bob and Bruce's
              >>>>> response to Era's post about
              >>>>> "knowing God"...
              >>>>>
              >>>>> Here's my "little bit of this,
              >>>>> little bit of that" from my dance:
              >>>>>
              >>>>> >From The Old Testament
              >>>>> (repeated in the New One
              >>>>> and reference several times
              >>>>> as "having come to pass"):
              >>>>>
              >>>>> "Behold, the days come,
              >>>>> saith the LORD, that I
              >>>>> will make a a new covenant...
              >>>>>
              >>>>> I will put my law in their
              >>>>> inward parts, and write it in
              >>>>> their hearts; ...
              >>>>>
              >>>>> they shall all know me."
              >>>>>
              >>>>> So, if the wise say that
              >>>>> they know that God is
              >>>>> unknowable, they err. And
              >>>>> they are wise in their
              >>>>> own mind - which is
              >>>>> incidently the major block
              >>>>> to enlightenment.
              >>>>>
              >>>>> Enlightenment IS coming
              >>>>> into the knowledgable
              >>>>> presence of God..
              >>>>> as promised.
              >>>>>
              >>>>> I know God.
              >>>>>
              >>>>> Formally introduced
              >>>>> July 21, many years ago,
              >>>>> at about 9:30am.
              >>>>>
              >>>>> And we continue to
              >>>>> stay in touch.
              >>>>>
              >>>>> Call me ignorant if
              >>>>> you must. God knows.
              >>>>>
              >>>>>
              >>>>>
              >>>> I see you as not "ignorant,"
              >>>> but perhaps playing somewhat
              >>>> fast and loose with the word
              >>>> "knowledge," which essentially
              >>>> means "stored information."
              >>>>
              >>>> As an illustration, can you
              >>>> tell me what it is you "know"
              >>>> of this "God?"
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>> It is the inadequacy of words
              >>> to explain the fuller meaning
              >>> of "Knowledge" in the context
              >>> of my earlier post that makes it
              >>> seem as a fast and loose dance.
              >>>
              >>>
              >> True.
              >>
              >>
              >>> Knowledge becomes secondary stored
              >>> information when it enters
              >>> the necessarily dualistic world
              >>> of mental reflection and any
              >>> attempt at "telling".
              >>>
              >>>
              >> True.
              >>
              >>
              >>> God can be Known, but God
              >>> cannot be explained in words;
              >>> only Known by direct experience...
              >>> which, to be redundant, is
              >>> beyond words.
              >>>
              >>>
              >> Iow, "unknowable" -- and
              >> capitalizing that "K"
              >> doesn't change that fact.
              >>
              >> Please consider that
              >> fortunate "realized" folks
              >> still have the failings of
              >> incarnate life to deal with.
              >> Religious conditioning is
              >> especially problematic and
              >> can easily lead to mistaking
              >> the ecstatic response of our
              >> personal meat puppets to the
              >> unknowable (aka "Holy
              >> Spirit") with "knowing God"
              >> or some such -- our heads
              >> are full of old scripture
              >> vouchsafing this knowledge
              >> to us, so in the aftermoment
              >> ego "backfills" the miracle
              >> of realization with that
              >> stuff and we are quite prone
              >> to claiming that we now
              >> "know God." It sure sounds
              >> good from the pulpit too!
              >>
              >>
              >>> Thanks, Bruce. Always
              >>> enjoy your perspective.
              >>>
              >>>
              >> Right back atcha, Jeff!
              >>
              >>
              >>> Jeff
              >>>
              >>>
              >> Much love -- Bruce
              >>
              >>
              >
              > Interesting syntax -
              > ego backfilling vs new
              > enlightened understanding
              > of scripture. There would
              > be more of a case for the
              > headroom filled with
              > scripture that is used
              > by the ego to backfill,
              > if the backfilling were
              > model specific (the home
              > of the fundamentalist),
              > but when the knowledge
              > with a capital K (a literary
              > and graphic design convention,
              > I know) reveals a core
              > understanding in all
              > spiritual traditions
              > (the mystical path),
              > the case is less
              > convincing.
              >
              > The meat puppets who
              > think morph into meat
              > puppets who have a
              > pseudo-spiritual experience?
              >
              > Cosmic, man.
              >
              > I'll take theist language,
              > thanks. Sure sounds better
              > from the pulpit - especially
              > when it comes from the
              > mystic heart of Knowledge.
              >
              > Thanks,
              >
              > Cosmic Man
              >
              > PS: Just had flashback
              > to the punch and Judy days.
              >
              >
            • Jeff Belyea
              ... You re welcome, Bruce. True, your responses to me are never taken as questioning authenticity. I couldn t help but note the plot twist at the end of your
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 17, 2008
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                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
                >
                > Jeff knows this, but just for
                > clarity: I'm not questioning
                > his authenticity, just noting
                > what I see as the pitfalls of
                > adopting theistic expression.
                > We all have to weigh pulpit
                > impact vs. possibly misleading
                > or occluding effects, and we
                > tend to make our calls based
                > on conditioning -- both the
                > environmental conditioning of
                > our upbringings (cum other
                > formative experiences) and the
                > biological/genetic conditioning
                > that determines our places on
                > the bhakta-jnana spectrum.
                >
                > Thanks for the dialogue, Jeff!

                You're welcome, Bruce.
                True, your responses to
                me are never taken as
                questioning authenticity.

                I couldn't help but note
                the "plot twist" at the end
                of your post. Two of us
                from Judeo (you)-Christian (me)
                backgrounds discussing
                the pros and pitfalls of
                theistic language ends with
                a reference to the bhakta-
                jnana spectrum. Smilling.

                How about, God is knowable,
                but not wordable?

                Peace, love and blessings,

                Jeff

                PS: Not sure why you mixed
                in the little aside about fortunate
                "realized" ones having to cope with
                the slings and arrows of life on
                earth, but, of course, agreed.

                Above the fray (in a way), but not
                above stubbing a toe on a bedpost
                during a night-time sojourn...
                and spouting a burst of profanity.





                >
                >
                > Jeff Belyea wrote:
                > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
                > > <editor@> wrote:
                > >
                > >> Jeff Belyea wrote:
                > >>
                > >>> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
                > >>> <editor@> wrote:
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >>>> Jeff Belyea wrote:
                > >>>>
                > >>>>
                > >>>>> In response to Bob and Bruce's
                > >>>>> response to Era's post about
                > >>>>> "knowing God"...
                > >>>>>
                > >>>>> Here's my "little bit of this,
                > >>>>> little bit of that" from my dance:
                > >>>>>
                > >>>>> >From The Old Testament
                > >>>>> (repeated in the New One
                > >>>>> and reference several times
                > >>>>> as "having come to pass"):
                > >>>>>
                > >>>>> "Behold, the days come,
                > >>>>> saith the LORD, that I
                > >>>>> will make a a new covenant...
                > >>>>>
                > >>>>> I will put my law in their
                > >>>>> inward parts, and write it in
                > >>>>> their hearts; ...
                > >>>>>
                > >>>>> they shall all know me."
                > >>>>>
                > >>>>> So, if the wise say that
                > >>>>> they know that God is
                > >>>>> unknowable, they err. And
                > >>>>> they are wise in their
                > >>>>> own mind - which is
                > >>>>> incidently the major block
                > >>>>> to enlightenment.
                > >>>>>
                > >>>>> Enlightenment IS coming
                > >>>>> into the knowledgable
                > >>>>> presence of God..
                > >>>>> as promised.
                > >>>>>
                > >>>>> I know God.
                > >>>>>
                > >>>>> Formally introduced
                > >>>>> July 21, many years ago,
                > >>>>> at about 9:30am.
                > >>>>>
                > >>>>> And we continue to
                > >>>>> stay in touch.
                > >>>>>
                > >>>>> Call me ignorant if
                > >>>>> you must. God knows.
                > >>>>>
                > >>>>>
                > >>>>>
                > >>>> I see you as not "ignorant,"
                > >>>> but perhaps playing somewhat
                > >>>> fast and loose with the word
                > >>>> "knowledge," which essentially
                > >>>> means "stored information."
                > >>>>
                > >>>> As an illustration, can you
                > >>>> tell me what it is you "know"
                > >>>> of this "God?"
                > >>>>
                > >>>>
                > >>>>
                > >>> It is the inadequacy of words
                > >>> to explain the fuller meaning
                > >>> of "Knowledge" in the context
                > >>> of my earlier post that makes it
                > >>> seem as a fast and loose dance.
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >> True.
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>> Knowledge becomes secondary stored
                > >>> information when it enters
                > >>> the necessarily dualistic world
                > >>> of mental reflection and any
                > >>> attempt at "telling".
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >> True.
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>> God can be Known, but God
                > >>> cannot be explained in words;
                > >>> only Known by direct experience...
                > >>> which, to be redundant, is
                > >>> beyond words.
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >> Iow, "unknowable" -- and
                > >> capitalizing that "K"
                > >> doesn't change that fact.
                > >>
                > >> Please consider that
                > >> fortunate "realized" folks
                > >> still have the failings of
                > >> incarnate life to deal with.
                > >> Religious conditioning is
                > >> especially problematic and
                > >> can easily lead to mistaking
                > >> the ecstatic response of our
                > >> personal meat puppets to the
                > >> unknowable (aka "Holy
                > >> Spirit") with "knowing God"
                > >> or some such -- our heads
                > >> are full of old scripture
                > >> vouchsafing this knowledge
                > >> to us, so in the aftermoment
                > >> ego "backfills" the miracle
                > >> of realization with that
                > >> stuff and we are quite prone
                > >> to claiming that we now
                > >> "know God." It sure sounds
                > >> good from the pulpit too!
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>> Thanks, Bruce. Always
                > >>> enjoy your perspective.
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >> Right back atcha, Jeff!
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>> Jeff
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >> Much love -- Bruce
                > >>
                > >>
                > >
                > > Interesting syntax -
                > > ego backfilling vs new
                > > enlightened understanding
                > > of scripture. There would
                > > be more of a case for the
                > > headroom filled with
                > > scripture that is used
                > > by the ego to backfill,
                > > if the backfilling were
                > > model specific (the home
                > > of the fundamentalist),
                > > but when the knowledge
                > > with a capital K (a literary
                > > and graphic design convention,
                > > I know) reveals a core
                > > understanding in all
                > > spiritual traditions
                > > (the mystical path),
                > > the case is less
                > > convincing.
                > >
                > > The meat puppets who
                > > think morph into meat
                > > puppets who have a
                > > pseudo-spiritual experience?
                > >
                > > Cosmic, man.
                > >
                > > I'll take theist language,
                > > thanks. Sure sounds better
                > > from the pulpit - especially
                > > when it comes from the
                > > mystic heart of Knowledge.
                > >
                > > Thanks,
                > >
                > > Cosmic Man
                > >
                > > PS: Just had flashback
                > > to the punch and Judy days.
                > >
                > >
                >
              • Bruce Morgen
                ... No sale -- but thanks for playing! :-) ... Right back atcha! ... Because our language preferences tend to be part and parcel of conditioning
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 17, 2008
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                  Jeff Belyea wrote:
                  > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >> Jeff knows this, but just for
                  >> clarity: I'm not questioning
                  >> his authenticity, just noting
                  >> what I see as the pitfalls of
                  >> adopting theistic expression.
                  >> We all have to weigh pulpit
                  >> impact vs. possibly misleading
                  >> or occluding effects, and we
                  >> tend to make our calls based
                  >> on conditioning -- both the
                  >> environmental conditioning of
                  >> our upbringings (cum other
                  >> formative experiences) and the
                  >> biological/genetic conditioning
                  >> that determines our places on
                  >> the bhakta-jnana spectrum.
                  >>
                  >> Thanks for the dialogue, Jeff!
                  >>
                  >
                  > You're welcome, Bruce.
                  > True, your responses to
                  > me are never taken as
                  > questioning authenticity.
                  >
                  > I couldn't help but note
                  > the "plot twist" at the end
                  > of your post. Two of us
                  > from Judeo (you)-Christian (me)
                  > backgrounds discussing
                  > the pros and pitfalls of
                  > theistic language ends with
                  > a reference to the bhakta-
                  > jnana spectrum. Smilling.
                  >
                  > How about, God is knowable,
                  > but not wordable?
                  >

                  No sale -- but thanks for
                  playing! :-)

                  > Peace, love and blessings,
                  >

                  Right back atcha!

                  > Jeff
                  >
                  > PS: Not sure why you mixed
                  > in the little aside about fortunate
                  > "realized" ones having to cope with
                  > the slings and arrows of life on
                  > earth, but, of course, agreed.
                  >
                  Because our language
                  preferences tend to be part
                  and parcel of conditioning
                  rather than imparted by our
                  "Holy Spirit" encounter(s).

                  > Above the fray (in a way), but not
                  > above stubbing a toe on a bedpost
                  > during a night-time sojourn...
                  > and spouting a burst of profanity.
                  >
                  bcnu around, Jeff!

                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >> Jeff Belyea wrote:
                  >>
                  >>> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
                  >>> <editor@> wrote:
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>> Jeff Belyea wrote:
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>>> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
                  >>>>> <editor@> wrote:
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>> Jeff Belyea wrote:
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>>> In response to Bob and Bruce's
                  >>>>>>> response to Era's post about
                  >>>>>>> "knowing God"...
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>> Here's my "little bit of this,
                  >>>>>>> little bit of that" from my dance:
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>> >From The Old Testament
                  >>>>>>> (repeated in the New One
                  >>>>>>> and reference several times
                  >>>>>>> as "having come to pass"):
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>> "Behold, the days come,
                  >>>>>>> saith the LORD, that I
                  >>>>>>> will make a a new covenant...
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>> I will put my law in their
                  >>>>>>> inward parts, and write it in
                  >>>>>>> their hearts; ...
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>> they shall all know me."
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>> So, if the wise say that
                  >>>>>>> they know that God is
                  >>>>>>> unknowable, they err. And
                  >>>>>>> they are wise in their
                  >>>>>>> own mind - which is
                  >>>>>>> incidently the major block
                  >>>>>>> to enlightenment.
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>> Enlightenment IS coming
                  >>>>>>> into the knowledgable
                  >>>>>>> presence of God..
                  >>>>>>> as promised.
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>> I know God.
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>> Formally introduced
                  >>>>>>> July 21, many years ago,
                  >>>>>>> at about 9:30am.
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>> And we continue to
                  >>>>>>> stay in touch.
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>> Call me ignorant if
                  >>>>>>> you must. God knows.
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>> I see you as not "ignorant,"
                  >>>>>> but perhaps playing somewhat
                  >>>>>> fast and loose with the word
                  >>>>>> "knowledge," which essentially
                  >>>>>> means "stored information."
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>> As an illustration, can you
                  >>>>>> tell me what it is you "know"
                  >>>>>> of this "God?"
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>> It is the inadequacy of words
                  >>>>> to explain the fuller meaning
                  >>>>> of "Knowledge" in the context
                  >>>>> of my earlier post that makes it
                  >>>>> seem as a fast and loose dance.
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>> True.
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>>> Knowledge becomes secondary stored
                  >>>>> information when it enters
                  >>>>> the necessarily dualistic world
                  >>>>> of mental reflection and any
                  >>>>> attempt at "telling".
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>> True.
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>>> God can be Known, but God
                  >>>>> cannot be explained in words;
                  >>>>> only Known by direct experience...
                  >>>>> which, to be redundant, is
                  >>>>> beyond words.
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>> Iow, "unknowable" -- and
                  >>>> capitalizing that "K"
                  >>>> doesn't change that fact.
                  >>>>
                  >>>> Please consider that
                  >>>> fortunate "realized" folks
                  >>>> still have the failings of
                  >>>> incarnate life to deal with.
                  >>>> Religious conditioning is
                  >>>> especially problematic and
                  >>>> can easily lead to mistaking
                  >>>> the ecstatic response of our
                  >>>> personal meat puppets to the
                  >>>> unknowable (aka "Holy
                  >>>> Spirit") with "knowing God"
                  >>>> or some such -- our heads
                  >>>> are full of old scripture
                  >>>> vouchsafing this knowledge
                  >>>> to us, so in the aftermoment
                  >>>> ego "backfills" the miracle
                  >>>> of realization with that
                  >>>> stuff and we are quite prone
                  >>>> to claiming that we now
                  >>>> "know God." It sure sounds
                  >>>> good from the pulpit too!
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>>> Thanks, Bruce. Always
                  >>>>> enjoy your perspective.
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>> Right back atcha, Jeff!
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>>> Jeff
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>> Much love -- Bruce
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>> Interesting syntax -
                  >>> ego backfilling vs new
                  >>> enlightened understanding
                  >>> of scripture. There would
                  >>> be more of a case for the
                  >>> headroom filled with
                  >>> scripture that is used
                  >>> by the ego to backfill,
                  >>> if the backfilling were
                  >>> model specific (the home
                  >>> of the fundamentalist),
                  >>> but when the knowledge
                  >>> with a capital K (a literary
                  >>> and graphic design convention,
                  >>> I know) reveals a core
                  >>> understanding in all
                  >>> spiritual traditions
                  >>> (the mystical path),
                  >>> the case is less
                  >>> convincing.
                  >>>
                  >>> The meat puppets who
                  >>> think morph into meat
                  >>> puppets who have a
                  >>> pseudo-spiritual experience?
                  >>>
                  >>> Cosmic, man.
                  >>>
                  >>> I'll take theist language,
                  >>> thanks. Sure sounds better
                  >>> from the pulpit - especially
                  >>> when it comes from the
                  >>> mystic heart of Knowledge.
                  >>>
                  >>> Thanks,
                  >>>
                  >>> Cosmic Man
                  >>>
                  >>> PS: Just had flashback
                  >>> to the punch and Judy days.
                  >>>
                  >>>
                • sean tremblay
                  Gods favorite color is Blue God is a people person God likes water, sunshine and the outdoors God loves astronomy I m not sure what Gods musical preference is
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 18, 2008
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                    Gods favorite color is Blue
                    God is a people person
                    God likes water,
                     sunshine
                    and the outdoors
                    God loves astronomy
                    I'm not sure what Gods musical preference is
                    God looks nothing like Gorge Burns
                    But I'm sure God would enjoy a good cigar(who doesnt)
                    Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
                    Jeff Belyea wrote:
                    > In response to Bob and Bruce's
                    > response to Era's post about
                    > "knowing God"...
                    >
                    > Here's my "little bit of this,
                    > little bit of that" from my dance:
                    >
                    > >From The Old Testament
                    > (repeated in the New One
                    > and reference several times
                    > as "having come to pass"):
                    >
                    > "Behold, the days come,
                    > saith the LORD, that I
                    > will make a a new covenant...
                    >
                    > I will put my law in their
                    > inward parts, and write it in
                    > their hearts; ...
                    >
                    > they shall all know me."
                    >
                    > So, if the wise say that
                    > they know that God is
                    > unknowable, they err. And
                    > they are wise in their
                    > own mind - which is
                    > incidently the major block
                    > to enlightenment.
                    >
                    > Enlightenment IS coming
                    > into the knowledgable
                    > presence of God..
                    > as promised.
                    >
                    > I know God.
                    >
                    > Formally introduced
                    > July 21, many years ago,
                    > at about 9:30am.
                    >
                    > And we continue to
                    > stay in touch.
                    >
                    > Call me ignorant if
                    > you must. God knows.
                    >
                    I see you as not "ignorant,"
                    but perhaps playing somewhat
                    fast and loose with the word
                    "knowledge," which essentially
                    means "stored information. "

                    As an illustration, can you
                    tell me what it is you "know"
                    of this "God?"



                    Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

                  • Jeff Belyea
                    God s musical preference is the harp...not the wimpy harp, but more of the Blues Travelers lung-rippin harp.
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 18, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      God's musical preference
                      is the harp...not the wimpy
                      harp, but more of the Blues
                      Travelers lung-rippin' harp.


                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean tremblay
                      <bethjams9@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Gods favorite color is Blue
                      > God is a people person
                      > God likes water,
                      > sunshine
                      > and the outdoors
                      > God loves astronomy
                      > I'm not sure what Gods musical preference is
                      > God looks nothing like Gorge Burns
                      > But I'm sure God would enjoy a good cigar(who doesnt)
                      > Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
                      > Jeff Belyea wrote:
                      > > In response to Bob and Bruce's
                      > > response to Era's post about
                      > > "knowing God"...
                      > >
                      > > Here's my "little bit of this,
                      > > little bit of that" from my dance:
                      > >
                      > > >From The Old Testament
                      > > (repeated in the New One
                      > > and reference several times
                      > > as "having come to pass"):
                      > >
                      > > "Behold, the days come,
                      > > saith the LORD, that I
                      > > will make a a new covenant...
                      > >
                      > > I will put my law in their
                      > > inward parts, and write it in
                      > > their hearts; ...
                      > >
                      > > they shall all know me."
                      > >
                      > > So, if the wise say that
                      > > they know that God is
                      > > unknowable, they err. And
                      > > they are wise in their
                      > > own mind - which is
                      > > incidently the major block
                      > > to enlightenment.
                      > >
                      > > Enlightenment IS coming
                      > > into the knowledgable
                      > > presence of God..
                      > > as promised.
                      > >
                      > > I know God.
                      > >
                      > > Formally introduced
                      > > July 21, many years ago,
                      > > at about 9:30am.
                      > >
                      > > And we continue to
                      > > stay in touch.
                      > >
                      > > Call me ignorant if
                      > > you must. God knows.
                      > >
                      > I see you as not "ignorant,"
                      > but perhaps playing somewhat
                      > fast and loose with the word
                      > "knowledge," which essentially
                      > means "stored information."
                      >
                      > As an illustration, can you
                      > tell me what it is you "know"
                      > of this "God?"
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
                      >
                    • Bruce Morgen
                      nuff said....
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 18, 2008
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                        <http://youtube.com/watch?v=OmC4SJ42Z-s>

                        'nuff said....


                        Jeff Belyea wrote:
                        > God's musical preference
                        > is the harp...not the wimpy
                        > harp, but more of the Blues
                        > Travelers lung-rippin' harp.
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean tremblay
                        > <bethjams9@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >> Gods favorite color is Blue
                        >> God is a people person
                        >> God likes water,
                        >> sunshine
                        >> and the outdoors
                        >> God loves astronomy
                        >> I'm not sure what Gods musical preference is
                        >> God looks nothing like Gorge Burns
                        >> But I'm sure God would enjoy a good cigar(who doesnt)
                        >> Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
                        >> Jeff Belyea wrote:
                        >>
                        >>> In response to Bob and Bruce's
                        >>> response to Era's post about
                        >>> "knowing God"...
                        >>>
                        >>> Here's my "little bit of this,
                        >>> little bit of that" from my dance:
                        >>>
                        >>> >From The Old Testament
                        >>> (repeated in the New One
                        >>> and reference several times
                        >>> as "having come to pass"):
                        >>>
                        >>> "Behold, the days come,
                        >>> saith the LORD, that I
                        >>> will make a a new covenant...
                        >>>
                        >>> I will put my law in their
                        >>> inward parts, and write it in
                        >>> their hearts; ...
                        >>>
                        >>> they shall all know me."
                        >>>
                        >>> So, if the wise say that
                        >>> they know that God is
                        >>> unknowable, they err. And
                        >>> they are wise in their
                        >>> own mind - which is
                        >>> incidently the major block
                        >>> to enlightenment.
                        >>>
                        >>> Enlightenment IS coming
                        >>> into the knowledgable
                        >>> presence of God..
                        >>> as promised.
                        >>>
                        >>> I know God.
                        >>>
                        >>> Formally introduced
                        >>> July 21, many years ago,
                        >>> at about 9:30am.
                        >>>
                        >>> And we continue to
                        >>> stay in touch.
                        >>>
                        >>> Call me ignorant if
                        >>> you must. God knows.
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >> I see you as not "ignorant,"
                        >> but perhaps playing somewhat
                        >> fast and loose with the word
                        >> "knowledge," which essentially
                        >> means "stored information."
                        >>
                        >> As an illustration, can you
                        >> tell me what it is you "know"
                        >> of this "God?"
                        >>
                      • Jeff Belyea
                        heavenly
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jan 18, 2008
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                          heavenly

                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
                          <editor@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > <http://youtube.com/watch?v=OmC4SJ42Z-s>
                          >
                          > 'nuff said....
                          >
                          >
                          > Jeff Belyea wrote:
                          > > God's musical preference
                          > > is the harp...not the wimpy
                          > > harp, but more of the Blues
                          > > Travelers lung-rippin' harp.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean tremblay
                          > > <bethjams9@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >> Gods favorite color is Blue
                          > >> God is a people person
                          > >> God likes water,
                          > >> sunshine
                          > >> and the outdoors
                          > >> God loves astronomy
                          > >> I'm not sure what Gods musical preference is
                          > >> God looks nothing like Gorge Burns
                          > >> But I'm sure God would enjoy a good cigar(who doesnt)
                          > >> Bruce Morgen <editor@> wrote:
                          > >> Jeff Belyea wrote:
                          > >>
                          > >>> In response to Bob and Bruce's
                          > >>> response to Era's post about
                          > >>> "knowing God"...
                          > >>>
                          > >>> Here's my "little bit of this,
                          > >>> little bit of that" from my dance:
                          > >>>
                          > >>> >From The Old Testament
                          > >>> (repeated in the New One
                          > >>> and reference several times
                          > >>> as "having come to pass"):
                          > >>>
                          > >>> "Behold, the days come,
                          > >>> saith the LORD, that I
                          > >>> will make a a new covenant...
                          > >>>
                          > >>> I will put my law in their
                          > >>> inward parts, and write it in
                          > >>> their hearts; ...
                          > >>>
                          > >>> they shall all know me."
                          > >>>
                          > >>> So, if the wise say that
                          > >>> they know that God is
                          > >>> unknowable, they err. And
                          > >>> they are wise in their
                          > >>> own mind - which is
                          > >>> incidently the major block
                          > >>> to enlightenment.
                          > >>>
                          > >>> Enlightenment IS coming
                          > >>> into the knowledgable
                          > >>> presence of God..
                          > >>> as promised.
                          > >>>
                          > >>> I know God.
                          > >>>
                          > >>> Formally introduced
                          > >>> July 21, many years ago,
                          > >>> at about 9:30am.
                          > >>>
                          > >>> And we continue to
                          > >>> stay in touch.
                          > >>>
                          > >>> Call me ignorant if
                          > >>> you must. God knows.
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >> I see you as not "ignorant,"
                          > >> but perhaps playing somewhat
                          > >> fast and loose with the word
                          > >> "knowledge," which essentially
                          > >> means "stored information."
                          > >>
                          > >> As an illustration, can you
                          > >> tell me what it is you "know"
                          > >> of this "God?"
                          > >>
                          >
                        • Aideen McKenna
                          Oh thank you – that video made my week! _____ From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jan 18, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment

                            Oh thank you – that video made my week!

                             


                            From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com [mailto: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Bruce Morgen
                            Sent: January 18, 2008 10:30 AM
                            To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America ] Mambo #5 with God

                             

                            <http://youtube. com/watch? v=OmC4SJ42Z- s>

                            'nuff said....

                            Jeff Belyea wrote:

                            > God's musical preference
                            > is the harp...not the wimpy
                            > harp, but more of the Blues
                            > Travelers lung-rippin' harp.
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com,
                            sean tremblay
                            > <bethjams9@. ..> wrote:
                            >
                            >> Gods favorite color is Blue
                            >> God is a people person
                            >> God likes water,
                            >> sunshine
                            >> and the outdoors
                            >> God loves astronomy
                            >> I'm not sure what Gods musical preference is
                            >> God looks nothing like Gorge Burns
                            >> But I'm sure God would enjoy a good cigar(who doesnt)
                            >> Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
                            >> Jeff Belyea wrote:
                            >>
                            >>> In response to Bob and Bruce's
                            >>> response to Era's post about
                            >>> "knowing God"...
                            >>>
                            >>> Here's my "little bit of this,
                            >>> little bit of that" from my dance:
                            >>>
                            >>> >From The Old Testament
                            >>> (repeated in the New One
                            >>> and reference several times
                            >>> as "having come to pass"):
                            >>>
                            >>> "Behold, the days come,
                            >>> saith the LORD, that I
                            >>> will make a a new covenant...
                            >>>
                            >>> I will put my law in their
                            >>> inward parts, and write it in
                            >>> their hearts; ...
                            >>>
                            >>> they shall all know me."
                            >>>
                            >>> So, if the wise say that
                            >>> they know that God is
                            >>> unknowable, they err. And
                            >>> they are wise in their
                            >>> own mind - which is
                            >>> incidently the major block
                            >>> to enlightenment.
                            >>>
                            >>> Enlightenment IS coming
                            >>> into the knowledgable
                            >>> presence of God..
                            >>> as promised.
                            >>>
                            >>> I know God.
                            >>>
                            >>> Formally introduced
                            >>> July 21, many years ago,
                            >>> at about 9:30am.
                            >>>
                            >>> And we continue to
                            >>> stay in touch.
                            >>>
                            >>> Call me ignorant if
                            >>> you must. God knows.
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >> I see you as not "ignorant,"
                            >> but perhaps playing somewhat
                            >> fast and loose with the word
                            >> "knowledge," which essentially
                            >> means "stored information. "
                            >>
                            >> As an illustration, can you
                            >> tell me what it is you "know"
                            >> of this "God?"
                            >>


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