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Mambo #5 with God

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  • Jeff Belyea
    In response to Bob and Bruce s response to Era s post about knowing God ... Here s my little bit of this, little bit of that from my dance: From The Old
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 17, 2008
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      In response to Bob and Bruce's
      response to Era's post about
      "knowing God"...

      Here's my "little bit of this,
      little bit of that" from my dance:

      From The Old Testament
      (repeated in the New One
      and reference several times
      as "having come to pass"):

      "Behold, the days come,
      saith the LORD, that I
      will make a a new covenant...

      I will put my law in their
      inward parts, and write it in
      their hearts; ...

      they shall all know me."

      So, if the wise say that
      they know that God is
      unknowable, they err. And
      they are wise in their
      own mind - which is
      incidently the major block
      to enlightenment.

      Enlightenment IS coming
      into the knowledgable
      presence of God..
      as promised.

      I know God.

      Formally introduced
      July 21, many years ago,
      at about 9:30am.

      And we continue to
      stay in touch.

      Call me ignorant if
      you must. God knows.

      Jeff
    • Bruce Morgen
      ... I see you as not ignorant, but perhaps playing somewhat fast and loose with the word knowledge, which essentially means stored information. As an
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 17, 2008
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        Jeff Belyea wrote:
        > In response to Bob and Bruce's
        > response to Era's post about
        > "knowing God"...
        >
        > Here's my "little bit of this,
        > little bit of that" from my dance:
        >
        > >From The Old Testament
        > (repeated in the New One
        > and reference several times
        > as "having come to pass"):
        >
        > "Behold, the days come,
        > saith the LORD, that I
        > will make a a new covenant...
        >
        > I will put my law in their
        > inward parts, and write it in
        > their hearts; ...
        >
        > they shall all know me."
        >
        > So, if the wise say that
        > they know that God is
        > unknowable, they err. And
        > they are wise in their
        > own mind - which is
        > incidently the major block
        > to enlightenment.
        >
        > Enlightenment IS coming
        > into the knowledgable
        > presence of God..
        > as promised.
        >
        > I know God.
        >
        > Formally introduced
        > July 21, many years ago,
        > at about 9:30am.
        >
        > And we continue to
        > stay in touch.
        >
        > Call me ignorant if
        > you must. God knows.
        >
        I see you as not "ignorant,"
        but perhaps playing somewhat
        fast and loose with the word
        "knowledge," which essentially
        means "stored information."

        As an illustration, can you
        tell me what it is you "know"
        of this "God?"
      • Jeff Belyea
        ... It is the inadequacy of words to explain the fuller meaning of Knowledge in the context of my earlier post that makes it seem as a fast and loose dance.
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 17, 2008
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
          <editor@...> wrote:
          >
          > Jeff Belyea wrote:
          > > In response to Bob and Bruce's
          > > response to Era's post about
          > > "knowing God"...
          > >
          > > Here's my "little bit of this,
          > > little bit of that" from my dance:
          > >
          > > >From The Old Testament
          > > (repeated in the New One
          > > and reference several times
          > > as "having come to pass"):
          > >
          > > "Behold, the days come,
          > > saith the LORD, that I
          > > will make a a new covenant...
          > >
          > > I will put my law in their
          > > inward parts, and write it in
          > > their hearts; ...
          > >
          > > they shall all know me."
          > >
          > > So, if the wise say that
          > > they know that God is
          > > unknowable, they err. And
          > > they are wise in their
          > > own mind - which is
          > > incidently the major block
          > > to enlightenment.
          > >
          > > Enlightenment IS coming
          > > into the knowledgable
          > > presence of God..
          > > as promised.
          > >
          > > I know God.
          > >
          > > Formally introduced
          > > July 21, many years ago,
          > > at about 9:30am.
          > >
          > > And we continue to
          > > stay in touch.
          > >
          > > Call me ignorant if
          > > you must. God knows.
          > >
          > I see you as not "ignorant,"
          > but perhaps playing somewhat
          > fast and loose with the word
          > "knowledge," which essentially
          > means "stored information."
          >
          > As an illustration, can you
          > tell me what it is you "know"
          > of this "God?"
          >

          It is the inadequacy of words
          to explain the fuller meaning
          of "Knowledge" in the context
          of my earlier post that makes it
          seem as a fast and loose dance.

          Knowledge becomes secondary stored
          information when it enters
          the necessarily dualistic world
          of mental reflection and any
          attemp at "telling".

          God can be Known, but God
          cannot be explained in words;
          only Known by direct experience...
          which, to be redundant, is
          beyond words.

          Thanks, Bruce. Always
          enjoy your perspective.

          Jeff
        • Bruce Morgen
          ... True. ... True. ... Iow, unknowable -- and capitalizing that K doesn t change that fact. Please consider that fortunate realized folks still have the
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 17, 2008
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            Jeff Belyea wrote:
            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
            > <editor@...> wrote:
            >
            >> Jeff Belyea wrote:
            >>
            >>> In response to Bob and Bruce's
            >>> response to Era's post about
            >>> "knowing God"...
            >>>
            >>> Here's my "little bit of this,
            >>> little bit of that" from my dance:
            >>>
            >>> >From The Old Testament
            >>> (repeated in the New One
            >>> and reference several times
            >>> as "having come to pass"):
            >>>
            >>> "Behold, the days come,
            >>> saith the LORD, that I
            >>> will make a a new covenant...
            >>>
            >>> I will put my law in their
            >>> inward parts, and write it in
            >>> their hearts; ...
            >>>
            >>> they shall all know me."
            >>>
            >>> So, if the wise say that
            >>> they know that God is
            >>> unknowable, they err. And
            >>> they are wise in their
            >>> own mind - which is
            >>> incidently the major block
            >>> to enlightenment.
            >>>
            >>> Enlightenment IS coming
            >>> into the knowledgable
            >>> presence of God..
            >>> as promised.
            >>>
            >>> I know God.
            >>>
            >>> Formally introduced
            >>> July 21, many years ago,
            >>> at about 9:30am.
            >>>
            >>> And we continue to
            >>> stay in touch.
            >>>
            >>> Call me ignorant if
            >>> you must. God knows.
            >>>
            >>>
            >> I see you as not "ignorant,"
            >> but perhaps playing somewhat
            >> fast and loose with the word
            >> "knowledge," which essentially
            >> means "stored information."
            >>
            >> As an illustration, can you
            >> tell me what it is you "know"
            >> of this "God?"
            >>
            >>
            >
            > It is the inadequacy of words
            > to explain the fuller meaning
            > of "Knowledge" in the context
            > of my earlier post that makes it
            > seem as a fast and loose dance.
            >

            True.

            > Knowledge becomes secondary stored
            > information when it enters
            > the necessarily dualistic world
            > of mental reflection and any
            > attempt at "telling".
            >

            True.

            > God can be Known, but God
            > cannot be explained in words;
            > only Known by direct experience...
            > which, to be redundant, is
            > beyond words.
            >

            Iow, "unknowable" -- and
            capitalizing that "K"
            doesn't change that fact.

            Please consider that
            fortunate "realized" folks
            still have the failings of
            incarnate life to deal with.
            Religious conditioning is
            especially problematic and
            can easily lead to mistaking
            the ecstatic response of our
            personal meat puppets to the
            unknowable (aka "Holy
            Spirit") with "knowing God"
            or some such -- our heads
            are full of old scripture
            vouchsafing this knowledge
            to us, so in the aftermoment
            ego "backfills" the miracle
            of realization with that
            stuff and we are quite prone
            to claiming that we now
            "know God." It sure sounds
            good from the pulpit too!

            > Thanks, Bruce. Always
            > enjoy your perspective.
            >

            Right back atcha, Jeff!

            > Jeff
            >
            Much love -- Bruce
          • Jeff Belyea
            ... Interesting syntax - ego backfilling vs new enlightened understanding of scripture. There would be more of a case for the headroom filled with scripture
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 17, 2008
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              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
              <editor@...> wrote:
              >
              > Jeff Belyea wrote:
              > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
              > > <editor@> wrote:
              > >
              > >> Jeff Belyea wrote:
              > >>
              > >>> In response to Bob and Bruce's
              > >>> response to Era's post about
              > >>> "knowing God"...
              > >>>
              > >>> Here's my "little bit of this,
              > >>> little bit of that" from my dance:
              > >>>
              > >>> >From The Old Testament
              > >>> (repeated in the New One
              > >>> and reference several times
              > >>> as "having come to pass"):
              > >>>
              > >>> "Behold, the days come,
              > >>> saith the LORD, that I
              > >>> will make a a new covenant...
              > >>>
              > >>> I will put my law in their
              > >>> inward parts, and write it in
              > >>> their hearts; ...
              > >>>
              > >>> they shall all know me."
              > >>>
              > >>> So, if the wise say that
              > >>> they know that God is
              > >>> unknowable, they err. And
              > >>> they are wise in their
              > >>> own mind - which is
              > >>> incidently the major block
              > >>> to enlightenment.
              > >>>
              > >>> Enlightenment IS coming
              > >>> into the knowledgable
              > >>> presence of God..
              > >>> as promised.
              > >>>
              > >>> I know God.
              > >>>
              > >>> Formally introduced
              > >>> July 21, many years ago,
              > >>> at about 9:30am.
              > >>>
              > >>> And we continue to
              > >>> stay in touch.
              > >>>
              > >>> Call me ignorant if
              > >>> you must. God knows.
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >> I see you as not "ignorant,"
              > >> but perhaps playing somewhat
              > >> fast and loose with the word
              > >> "knowledge," which essentially
              > >> means "stored information."
              > >>
              > >> As an illustration, can you
              > >> tell me what it is you "know"
              > >> of this "God?"
              > >>
              > >>
              > >
              > > It is the inadequacy of words
              > > to explain the fuller meaning
              > > of "Knowledge" in the context
              > > of my earlier post that makes it
              > > seem as a fast and loose dance.
              > >
              >
              > True.
              >
              > > Knowledge becomes secondary stored
              > > information when it enters
              > > the necessarily dualistic world
              > > of mental reflection and any
              > > attempt at "telling".
              > >
              >
              > True.
              >
              > > God can be Known, but God
              > > cannot be explained in words;
              > > only Known by direct experience...
              > > which, to be redundant, is
              > > beyond words.
              > >
              >
              > Iow, "unknowable" -- and
              > capitalizing that "K"
              > doesn't change that fact.
              >
              > Please consider that
              > fortunate "realized" folks
              > still have the failings of
              > incarnate life to deal with.
              > Religious conditioning is
              > especially problematic and
              > can easily lead to mistaking
              > the ecstatic response of our
              > personal meat puppets to the
              > unknowable (aka "Holy
              > Spirit") with "knowing God"
              > or some such -- our heads
              > are full of old scripture
              > vouchsafing this knowledge
              > to us, so in the aftermoment
              > ego "backfills" the miracle
              > of realization with that
              > stuff and we are quite prone
              > to claiming that we now
              > "know God." It sure sounds
              > good from the pulpit too!
              >
              > > Thanks, Bruce. Always
              > > enjoy your perspective.
              > >
              >
              > Right back atcha, Jeff!
              >
              > > Jeff
              > >
              > Much love -- Bruce
              >

              Interesting syntax -
              ego backfilling vs new
              enlightened understanding
              of scripture. There would
              be more of a case for the
              headroom filled with
              scripture that is used
              by the ego to backfill,
              if the backfilling were
              model specific (the home
              of the fundamentalist),
              but when the knowledge
              with a capital K (a literary
              and graphic design convention,
              I know) reveals a core
              understanding in all
              spiritual traditions
              (the mystical path),
              the case is less
              convincing.

              The meat puppets who
              think morph into meat
              puppets who have a
              pseudo-spiritual experience?

              Cosmic, man.

              I'll take theist language,
              thanks. Sure sounds better
              from the pulpit - especially
              when it comes from the
              mystic heart of Knowledge.

              Thanks,

              Cosmic Man

              PS: Just had flashback
              to the punch and Judy days.
            • Bruce Morgen
              Jeff knows this, but just for clarity: I m not questioning his authenticity, just noting what I see as the pitfalls of adopting theistic expression. We all
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 17, 2008
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                Jeff knows this, but just for
                clarity: I'm not questioning
                his authenticity, just noting
                what I see as the pitfalls of
                adopting theistic expression.
                We all have to weigh pulpit
                impact vs. possibly misleading
                or occluding effects, and we
                tend to make our calls based
                on conditioning -- both the
                environmental conditioning of
                our upbringings (cum other
                formative experiences) and the
                biological/genetic conditioning
                that determines our places on
                the bhakta-jnana spectrum.

                Thanks for the dialogue, Jeff!


                Jeff Belyea wrote:
                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
                > <editor@...> wrote:
                >
                >> Jeff Belyea wrote:
                >>
                >>> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
                >>> <editor@> wrote:
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>> Jeff Belyea wrote:
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>> In response to Bob and Bruce's
                >>>>> response to Era's post about
                >>>>> "knowing God"...
                >>>>>
                >>>>> Here's my "little bit of this,
                >>>>> little bit of that" from my dance:
                >>>>>
                >>>>> >From The Old Testament
                >>>>> (repeated in the New One
                >>>>> and reference several times
                >>>>> as "having come to pass"):
                >>>>>
                >>>>> "Behold, the days come,
                >>>>> saith the LORD, that I
                >>>>> will make a a new covenant...
                >>>>>
                >>>>> I will put my law in their
                >>>>> inward parts, and write it in
                >>>>> their hearts; ...
                >>>>>
                >>>>> they shall all know me."
                >>>>>
                >>>>> So, if the wise say that
                >>>>> they know that God is
                >>>>> unknowable, they err. And
                >>>>> they are wise in their
                >>>>> own mind - which is
                >>>>> incidently the major block
                >>>>> to enlightenment.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> Enlightenment IS coming
                >>>>> into the knowledgable
                >>>>> presence of God..
                >>>>> as promised.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> I know God.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> Formally introduced
                >>>>> July 21, many years ago,
                >>>>> at about 9:30am.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> And we continue to
                >>>>> stay in touch.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> Call me ignorant if
                >>>>> you must. God knows.
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >>>> I see you as not "ignorant,"
                >>>> but perhaps playing somewhat
                >>>> fast and loose with the word
                >>>> "knowledge," which essentially
                >>>> means "stored information."
                >>>>
                >>>> As an illustration, can you
                >>>> tell me what it is you "know"
                >>>> of this "God?"
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>> It is the inadequacy of words
                >>> to explain the fuller meaning
                >>> of "Knowledge" in the context
                >>> of my earlier post that makes it
                >>> seem as a fast and loose dance.
                >>>
                >>>
                >> True.
                >>
                >>
                >>> Knowledge becomes secondary stored
                >>> information when it enters
                >>> the necessarily dualistic world
                >>> of mental reflection and any
                >>> attempt at "telling".
                >>>
                >>>
                >> True.
                >>
                >>
                >>> God can be Known, but God
                >>> cannot be explained in words;
                >>> only Known by direct experience...
                >>> which, to be redundant, is
                >>> beyond words.
                >>>
                >>>
                >> Iow, "unknowable" -- and
                >> capitalizing that "K"
                >> doesn't change that fact.
                >>
                >> Please consider that
                >> fortunate "realized" folks
                >> still have the failings of
                >> incarnate life to deal with.
                >> Religious conditioning is
                >> especially problematic and
                >> can easily lead to mistaking
                >> the ecstatic response of our
                >> personal meat puppets to the
                >> unknowable (aka "Holy
                >> Spirit") with "knowing God"
                >> or some such -- our heads
                >> are full of old scripture
                >> vouchsafing this knowledge
                >> to us, so in the aftermoment
                >> ego "backfills" the miracle
                >> of realization with that
                >> stuff and we are quite prone
                >> to claiming that we now
                >> "know God." It sure sounds
                >> good from the pulpit too!
                >>
                >>
                >>> Thanks, Bruce. Always
                >>> enjoy your perspective.
                >>>
                >>>
                >> Right back atcha, Jeff!
                >>
                >>
                >>> Jeff
                >>>
                >>>
                >> Much love -- Bruce
                >>
                >>
                >
                > Interesting syntax -
                > ego backfilling vs new
                > enlightened understanding
                > of scripture. There would
                > be more of a case for the
                > headroom filled with
                > scripture that is used
                > by the ego to backfill,
                > if the backfilling were
                > model specific (the home
                > of the fundamentalist),
                > but when the knowledge
                > with a capital K (a literary
                > and graphic design convention,
                > I know) reveals a core
                > understanding in all
                > spiritual traditions
                > (the mystical path),
                > the case is less
                > convincing.
                >
                > The meat puppets who
                > think morph into meat
                > puppets who have a
                > pseudo-spiritual experience?
                >
                > Cosmic, man.
                >
                > I'll take theist language,
                > thanks. Sure sounds better
                > from the pulpit - especially
                > when it comes from the
                > mystic heart of Knowledge.
                >
                > Thanks,
                >
                > Cosmic Man
                >
                > PS: Just had flashback
                > to the punch and Judy days.
                >
                >
              • Jeff Belyea
                ... You re welcome, Bruce. True, your responses to me are never taken as questioning authenticity. I couldn t help but note the plot twist at the end of your
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 17, 2008
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                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Jeff knows this, but just for
                  > clarity: I'm not questioning
                  > his authenticity, just noting
                  > what I see as the pitfalls of
                  > adopting theistic expression.
                  > We all have to weigh pulpit
                  > impact vs. possibly misleading
                  > or occluding effects, and we
                  > tend to make our calls based
                  > on conditioning -- both the
                  > environmental conditioning of
                  > our upbringings (cum other
                  > formative experiences) and the
                  > biological/genetic conditioning
                  > that determines our places on
                  > the bhakta-jnana spectrum.
                  >
                  > Thanks for the dialogue, Jeff!

                  You're welcome, Bruce.
                  True, your responses to
                  me are never taken as
                  questioning authenticity.

                  I couldn't help but note
                  the "plot twist" at the end
                  of your post. Two of us
                  from Judeo (you)-Christian (me)
                  backgrounds discussing
                  the pros and pitfalls of
                  theistic language ends with
                  a reference to the bhakta-
                  jnana spectrum. Smilling.

                  How about, God is knowable,
                  but not wordable?

                  Peace, love and blessings,

                  Jeff

                  PS: Not sure why you mixed
                  in the little aside about fortunate
                  "realized" ones having to cope with
                  the slings and arrows of life on
                  earth, but, of course, agreed.

                  Above the fray (in a way), but not
                  above stubbing a toe on a bedpost
                  during a night-time sojourn...
                  and spouting a burst of profanity.





                  >
                  >
                  > Jeff Belyea wrote:
                  > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
                  > > <editor@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >> Jeff Belyea wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >>> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
                  > >>> <editor@> wrote:
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>> Jeff Belyea wrote:
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>> In response to Bob and Bruce's
                  > >>>>> response to Era's post about
                  > >>>>> "knowing God"...
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> Here's my "little bit of this,
                  > >>>>> little bit of that" from my dance:
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> >From The Old Testament
                  > >>>>> (repeated in the New One
                  > >>>>> and reference several times
                  > >>>>> as "having come to pass"):
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> "Behold, the days come,
                  > >>>>> saith the LORD, that I
                  > >>>>> will make a a new covenant...
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> I will put my law in their
                  > >>>>> inward parts, and write it in
                  > >>>>> their hearts; ...
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> they shall all know me."
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> So, if the wise say that
                  > >>>>> they know that God is
                  > >>>>> unknowable, they err. And
                  > >>>>> they are wise in their
                  > >>>>> own mind - which is
                  > >>>>> incidently the major block
                  > >>>>> to enlightenment.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> Enlightenment IS coming
                  > >>>>> into the knowledgable
                  > >>>>> presence of God..
                  > >>>>> as promised.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> I know God.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> Formally introduced
                  > >>>>> July 21, many years ago,
                  > >>>>> at about 9:30am.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> And we continue to
                  > >>>>> stay in touch.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> Call me ignorant if
                  > >>>>> you must. God knows.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>> I see you as not "ignorant,"
                  > >>>> but perhaps playing somewhat
                  > >>>> fast and loose with the word
                  > >>>> "knowledge," which essentially
                  > >>>> means "stored information."
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>> As an illustration, can you
                  > >>>> tell me what it is you "know"
                  > >>>> of this "God?"
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>
                  > >>> It is the inadequacy of words
                  > >>> to explain the fuller meaning
                  > >>> of "Knowledge" in the context
                  > >>> of my earlier post that makes it
                  > >>> seem as a fast and loose dance.
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >> True.
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>> Knowledge becomes secondary stored
                  > >>> information when it enters
                  > >>> the necessarily dualistic world
                  > >>> of mental reflection and any
                  > >>> attempt at "telling".
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >> True.
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>> God can be Known, but God
                  > >>> cannot be explained in words;
                  > >>> only Known by direct experience...
                  > >>> which, to be redundant, is
                  > >>> beyond words.
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >> Iow, "unknowable" -- and
                  > >> capitalizing that "K"
                  > >> doesn't change that fact.
                  > >>
                  > >> Please consider that
                  > >> fortunate "realized" folks
                  > >> still have the failings of
                  > >> incarnate life to deal with.
                  > >> Religious conditioning is
                  > >> especially problematic and
                  > >> can easily lead to mistaking
                  > >> the ecstatic response of our
                  > >> personal meat puppets to the
                  > >> unknowable (aka "Holy
                  > >> Spirit") with "knowing God"
                  > >> or some such -- our heads
                  > >> are full of old scripture
                  > >> vouchsafing this knowledge
                  > >> to us, so in the aftermoment
                  > >> ego "backfills" the miracle
                  > >> of realization with that
                  > >> stuff and we are quite prone
                  > >> to claiming that we now
                  > >> "know God." It sure sounds
                  > >> good from the pulpit too!
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>> Thanks, Bruce. Always
                  > >>> enjoy your perspective.
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >> Right back atcha, Jeff!
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>> Jeff
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >> Much love -- Bruce
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > > Interesting syntax -
                  > > ego backfilling vs new
                  > > enlightened understanding
                  > > of scripture. There would
                  > > be more of a case for the
                  > > headroom filled with
                  > > scripture that is used
                  > > by the ego to backfill,
                  > > if the backfilling were
                  > > model specific (the home
                  > > of the fundamentalist),
                  > > but when the knowledge
                  > > with a capital K (a literary
                  > > and graphic design convention,
                  > > I know) reveals a core
                  > > understanding in all
                  > > spiritual traditions
                  > > (the mystical path),
                  > > the case is less
                  > > convincing.
                  > >
                  > > The meat puppets who
                  > > think morph into meat
                  > > puppets who have a
                  > > pseudo-spiritual experience?
                  > >
                  > > Cosmic, man.
                  > >
                  > > I'll take theist language,
                  > > thanks. Sure sounds better
                  > > from the pulpit - especially
                  > > when it comes from the
                  > > mystic heart of Knowledge.
                  > >
                  > > Thanks,
                  > >
                  > > Cosmic Man
                  > >
                  > > PS: Just had flashback
                  > > to the punch and Judy days.
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Bruce Morgen
                  ... No sale -- but thanks for playing! :-) ... Right back atcha! ... Because our language preferences tend to be part and parcel of conditioning
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 17, 2008
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                    Jeff Belyea wrote:
                    > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >> Jeff knows this, but just for
                    >> clarity: I'm not questioning
                    >> his authenticity, just noting
                    >> what I see as the pitfalls of
                    >> adopting theistic expression.
                    >> We all have to weigh pulpit
                    >> impact vs. possibly misleading
                    >> or occluding effects, and we
                    >> tend to make our calls based
                    >> on conditioning -- both the
                    >> environmental conditioning of
                    >> our upbringings (cum other
                    >> formative experiences) and the
                    >> biological/genetic conditioning
                    >> that determines our places on
                    >> the bhakta-jnana spectrum.
                    >>
                    >> Thanks for the dialogue, Jeff!
                    >>
                    >
                    > You're welcome, Bruce.
                    > True, your responses to
                    > me are never taken as
                    > questioning authenticity.
                    >
                    > I couldn't help but note
                    > the "plot twist" at the end
                    > of your post. Two of us
                    > from Judeo (you)-Christian (me)
                    > backgrounds discussing
                    > the pros and pitfalls of
                    > theistic language ends with
                    > a reference to the bhakta-
                    > jnana spectrum. Smilling.
                    >
                    > How about, God is knowable,
                    > but not wordable?
                    >

                    No sale -- but thanks for
                    playing! :-)

                    > Peace, love and blessings,
                    >

                    Right back atcha!

                    > Jeff
                    >
                    > PS: Not sure why you mixed
                    > in the little aside about fortunate
                    > "realized" ones having to cope with
                    > the slings and arrows of life on
                    > earth, but, of course, agreed.
                    >
                    Because our language
                    preferences tend to be part
                    and parcel of conditioning
                    rather than imparted by our
                    "Holy Spirit" encounter(s).

                    > Above the fray (in a way), but not
                    > above stubbing a toe on a bedpost
                    > during a night-time sojourn...
                    > and spouting a burst of profanity.
                    >
                    bcnu around, Jeff!

                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >> Jeff Belyea wrote:
                    >>
                    >>> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
                    >>> <editor@> wrote:
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>> Jeff Belyea wrote:
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
                    >>>>> <editor@> wrote:
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>> Jeff Belyea wrote:
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> In response to Bob and Bruce's
                    >>>>>>> response to Era's post about
                    >>>>>>> "knowing God"...
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> Here's my "little bit of this,
                    >>>>>>> little bit of that" from my dance:
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> >From The Old Testament
                    >>>>>>> (repeated in the New One
                    >>>>>>> and reference several times
                    >>>>>>> as "having come to pass"):
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> "Behold, the days come,
                    >>>>>>> saith the LORD, that I
                    >>>>>>> will make a a new covenant...
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> I will put my law in their
                    >>>>>>> inward parts, and write it in
                    >>>>>>> their hearts; ...
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> they shall all know me."
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> So, if the wise say that
                    >>>>>>> they know that God is
                    >>>>>>> unknowable, they err. And
                    >>>>>>> they are wise in their
                    >>>>>>> own mind - which is
                    >>>>>>> incidently the major block
                    >>>>>>> to enlightenment.
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> Enlightenment IS coming
                    >>>>>>> into the knowledgable
                    >>>>>>> presence of God..
                    >>>>>>> as promised.
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> I know God.
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> Formally introduced
                    >>>>>>> July 21, many years ago,
                    >>>>>>> at about 9:30am.
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> And we continue to
                    >>>>>>> stay in touch.
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> Call me ignorant if
                    >>>>>>> you must. God knows.
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>> I see you as not "ignorant,"
                    >>>>>> but perhaps playing somewhat
                    >>>>>> fast and loose with the word
                    >>>>>> "knowledge," which essentially
                    >>>>>> means "stored information."
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>> As an illustration, can you
                    >>>>>> tell me what it is you "know"
                    >>>>>> of this "God?"
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>> It is the inadequacy of words
                    >>>>> to explain the fuller meaning
                    >>>>> of "Knowledge" in the context
                    >>>>> of my earlier post that makes it
                    >>>>> seem as a fast and loose dance.
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>> True.
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>> Knowledge becomes secondary stored
                    >>>>> information when it enters
                    >>>>> the necessarily dualistic world
                    >>>>> of mental reflection and any
                    >>>>> attempt at "telling".
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>> True.
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>> God can be Known, but God
                    >>>>> cannot be explained in words;
                    >>>>> only Known by direct experience...
                    >>>>> which, to be redundant, is
                    >>>>> beyond words.
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>> Iow, "unknowable" -- and
                    >>>> capitalizing that "K"
                    >>>> doesn't change that fact.
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Please consider that
                    >>>> fortunate "realized" folks
                    >>>> still have the failings of
                    >>>> incarnate life to deal with.
                    >>>> Religious conditioning is
                    >>>> especially problematic and
                    >>>> can easily lead to mistaking
                    >>>> the ecstatic response of our
                    >>>> personal meat puppets to the
                    >>>> unknowable (aka "Holy
                    >>>> Spirit") with "knowing God"
                    >>>> or some such -- our heads
                    >>>> are full of old scripture
                    >>>> vouchsafing this knowledge
                    >>>> to us, so in the aftermoment
                    >>>> ego "backfills" the miracle
                    >>>> of realization with that
                    >>>> stuff and we are quite prone
                    >>>> to claiming that we now
                    >>>> "know God." It sure sounds
                    >>>> good from the pulpit too!
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>> Thanks, Bruce. Always
                    >>>>> enjoy your perspective.
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>> Right back atcha, Jeff!
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>> Jeff
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>> Much love -- Bruce
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>> Interesting syntax -
                    >>> ego backfilling vs new
                    >>> enlightened understanding
                    >>> of scripture. There would
                    >>> be more of a case for the
                    >>> headroom filled with
                    >>> scripture that is used
                    >>> by the ego to backfill,
                    >>> if the backfilling were
                    >>> model specific (the home
                    >>> of the fundamentalist),
                    >>> but when the knowledge
                    >>> with a capital K (a literary
                    >>> and graphic design convention,
                    >>> I know) reveals a core
                    >>> understanding in all
                    >>> spiritual traditions
                    >>> (the mystical path),
                    >>> the case is less
                    >>> convincing.
                    >>>
                    >>> The meat puppets who
                    >>> think morph into meat
                    >>> puppets who have a
                    >>> pseudo-spiritual experience?
                    >>>
                    >>> Cosmic, man.
                    >>>
                    >>> I'll take theist language,
                    >>> thanks. Sure sounds better
                    >>> from the pulpit - especially
                    >>> when it comes from the
                    >>> mystic heart of Knowledge.
                    >>>
                    >>> Thanks,
                    >>>
                    >>> Cosmic Man
                    >>>
                    >>> PS: Just had flashback
                    >>> to the punch and Judy days.
                    >>>
                    >>>
                  • sean tremblay
                    Gods favorite color is Blue God is a people person God likes water, sunshine and the outdoors God loves astronomy I m not sure what Gods musical preference is
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 18, 2008
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                      Gods favorite color is Blue
                      God is a people person
                      God likes water,
                       sunshine
                      and the outdoors
                      God loves astronomy
                      I'm not sure what Gods musical preference is
                      God looks nothing like Gorge Burns
                      But I'm sure God would enjoy a good cigar(who doesnt)
                      Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
                      Jeff Belyea wrote:
                      > In response to Bob and Bruce's
                      > response to Era's post about
                      > "knowing God"...
                      >
                      > Here's my "little bit of this,
                      > little bit of that" from my dance:
                      >
                      > >From The Old Testament
                      > (repeated in the New One
                      > and reference several times
                      > as "having come to pass"):
                      >
                      > "Behold, the days come,
                      > saith the LORD, that I
                      > will make a a new covenant...
                      >
                      > I will put my law in their
                      > inward parts, and write it in
                      > their hearts; ...
                      >
                      > they shall all know me."
                      >
                      > So, if the wise say that
                      > they know that God is
                      > unknowable, they err. And
                      > they are wise in their
                      > own mind - which is
                      > incidently the major block
                      > to enlightenment.
                      >
                      > Enlightenment IS coming
                      > into the knowledgable
                      > presence of God..
                      > as promised.
                      >
                      > I know God.
                      >
                      > Formally introduced
                      > July 21, many years ago,
                      > at about 9:30am.
                      >
                      > And we continue to
                      > stay in touch.
                      >
                      > Call me ignorant if
                      > you must. God knows.
                      >
                      I see you as not "ignorant,"
                      but perhaps playing somewhat
                      fast and loose with the word
                      "knowledge," which essentially
                      means "stored information. "

                      As an illustration, can you
                      tell me what it is you "know"
                      of this "God?"



                      Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

                    • Jeff Belyea
                      God s musical preference is the harp...not the wimpy harp, but more of the Blues Travelers lung-rippin harp.
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 18, 2008
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                        God's musical preference
                        is the harp...not the wimpy
                        harp, but more of the Blues
                        Travelers lung-rippin' harp.


                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean tremblay
                        <bethjams9@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Gods favorite color is Blue
                        > God is a people person
                        > God likes water,
                        > sunshine
                        > and the outdoors
                        > God loves astronomy
                        > I'm not sure what Gods musical preference is
                        > God looks nothing like Gorge Burns
                        > But I'm sure God would enjoy a good cigar(who doesnt)
                        > Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
                        > Jeff Belyea wrote:
                        > > In response to Bob and Bruce's
                        > > response to Era's post about
                        > > "knowing God"...
                        > >
                        > > Here's my "little bit of this,
                        > > little bit of that" from my dance:
                        > >
                        > > >From The Old Testament
                        > > (repeated in the New One
                        > > and reference several times
                        > > as "having come to pass"):
                        > >
                        > > "Behold, the days come,
                        > > saith the LORD, that I
                        > > will make a a new covenant...
                        > >
                        > > I will put my law in their
                        > > inward parts, and write it in
                        > > their hearts; ...
                        > >
                        > > they shall all know me."
                        > >
                        > > So, if the wise say that
                        > > they know that God is
                        > > unknowable, they err. And
                        > > they are wise in their
                        > > own mind - which is
                        > > incidently the major block
                        > > to enlightenment.
                        > >
                        > > Enlightenment IS coming
                        > > into the knowledgable
                        > > presence of God..
                        > > as promised.
                        > >
                        > > I know God.
                        > >
                        > > Formally introduced
                        > > July 21, many years ago,
                        > > at about 9:30am.
                        > >
                        > > And we continue to
                        > > stay in touch.
                        > >
                        > > Call me ignorant if
                        > > you must. God knows.
                        > >
                        > I see you as not "ignorant,"
                        > but perhaps playing somewhat
                        > fast and loose with the word
                        > "knowledge," which essentially
                        > means "stored information."
                        >
                        > As an illustration, can you
                        > tell me what it is you "know"
                        > of this "God?"
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
                        >
                      • Bruce Morgen
                        nuff said....
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jan 18, 2008
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                          <http://youtube.com/watch?v=OmC4SJ42Z-s>

                          'nuff said....


                          Jeff Belyea wrote:
                          > God's musical preference
                          > is the harp...not the wimpy
                          > harp, but more of the Blues
                          > Travelers lung-rippin' harp.
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean tremblay
                          > <bethjams9@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >> Gods favorite color is Blue
                          >> God is a people person
                          >> God likes water,
                          >> sunshine
                          >> and the outdoors
                          >> God loves astronomy
                          >> I'm not sure what Gods musical preference is
                          >> God looks nothing like Gorge Burns
                          >> But I'm sure God would enjoy a good cigar(who doesnt)
                          >> Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
                          >> Jeff Belyea wrote:
                          >>
                          >>> In response to Bob and Bruce's
                          >>> response to Era's post about
                          >>> "knowing God"...
                          >>>
                          >>> Here's my "little bit of this,
                          >>> little bit of that" from my dance:
                          >>>
                          >>> >From The Old Testament
                          >>> (repeated in the New One
                          >>> and reference several times
                          >>> as "having come to pass"):
                          >>>
                          >>> "Behold, the days come,
                          >>> saith the LORD, that I
                          >>> will make a a new covenant...
                          >>>
                          >>> I will put my law in their
                          >>> inward parts, and write it in
                          >>> their hearts; ...
                          >>>
                          >>> they shall all know me."
                          >>>
                          >>> So, if the wise say that
                          >>> they know that God is
                          >>> unknowable, they err. And
                          >>> they are wise in their
                          >>> own mind - which is
                          >>> incidently the major block
                          >>> to enlightenment.
                          >>>
                          >>> Enlightenment IS coming
                          >>> into the knowledgable
                          >>> presence of God..
                          >>> as promised.
                          >>>
                          >>> I know God.
                          >>>
                          >>> Formally introduced
                          >>> July 21, many years ago,
                          >>> at about 9:30am.
                          >>>
                          >>> And we continue to
                          >>> stay in touch.
                          >>>
                          >>> Call me ignorant if
                          >>> you must. God knows.
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >> I see you as not "ignorant,"
                          >> but perhaps playing somewhat
                          >> fast and loose with the word
                          >> "knowledge," which essentially
                          >> means "stored information."
                          >>
                          >> As an illustration, can you
                          >> tell me what it is you "know"
                          >> of this "God?"
                          >>
                        • Jeff Belyea
                          heavenly
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jan 18, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            heavenly

                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
                            <editor@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > <http://youtube.com/watch?v=OmC4SJ42Z-s>
                            >
                            > 'nuff said....
                            >
                            >
                            > Jeff Belyea wrote:
                            > > God's musical preference
                            > > is the harp...not the wimpy
                            > > harp, but more of the Blues
                            > > Travelers lung-rippin' harp.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean tremblay
                            > > <bethjams9@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > >> Gods favorite color is Blue
                            > >> God is a people person
                            > >> God likes water,
                            > >> sunshine
                            > >> and the outdoors
                            > >> God loves astronomy
                            > >> I'm not sure what Gods musical preference is
                            > >> God looks nothing like Gorge Burns
                            > >> But I'm sure God would enjoy a good cigar(who doesnt)
                            > >> Bruce Morgen <editor@> wrote:
                            > >> Jeff Belyea wrote:
                            > >>
                            > >>> In response to Bob and Bruce's
                            > >>> response to Era's post about
                            > >>> "knowing God"...
                            > >>>
                            > >>> Here's my "little bit of this,
                            > >>> little bit of that" from my dance:
                            > >>>
                            > >>> >From The Old Testament
                            > >>> (repeated in the New One
                            > >>> and reference several times
                            > >>> as "having come to pass"):
                            > >>>
                            > >>> "Behold, the days come,
                            > >>> saith the LORD, that I
                            > >>> will make a a new covenant...
                            > >>>
                            > >>> I will put my law in their
                            > >>> inward parts, and write it in
                            > >>> their hearts; ...
                            > >>>
                            > >>> they shall all know me."
                            > >>>
                            > >>> So, if the wise say that
                            > >>> they know that God is
                            > >>> unknowable, they err. And
                            > >>> they are wise in their
                            > >>> own mind - which is
                            > >>> incidently the major block
                            > >>> to enlightenment.
                            > >>>
                            > >>> Enlightenment IS coming
                            > >>> into the knowledgable
                            > >>> presence of God..
                            > >>> as promised.
                            > >>>
                            > >>> I know God.
                            > >>>
                            > >>> Formally introduced
                            > >>> July 21, many years ago,
                            > >>> at about 9:30am.
                            > >>>
                            > >>> And we continue to
                            > >>> stay in touch.
                            > >>>
                            > >>> Call me ignorant if
                            > >>> you must. God knows.
                            > >>>
                            > >>>
                            > >> I see you as not "ignorant,"
                            > >> but perhaps playing somewhat
                            > >> fast and loose with the word
                            > >> "knowledge," which essentially
                            > >> means "stored information."
                            > >>
                            > >> As an illustration, can you
                            > >> tell me what it is you "know"
                            > >> of this "God?"
                            > >>
                            >
                          • Aideen McKenna
                            Oh thank you – that video made my week! _____ From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jan 18, 2008
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                              Oh thank you – that video made my week!

                               


                              From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com [mailto: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Bruce Morgen
                              Sent: January 18, 2008 10:30 AM
                              To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America ] Mambo #5 with God

                               

                              <http://youtube. com/watch? v=OmC4SJ42Z- s>

                              'nuff said....

                              Jeff Belyea wrote:

                              > God's musical preference
                              > is the harp...not the wimpy
                              > harp, but more of the Blues
                              > Travelers lung-rippin' harp.
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com,
                              sean tremblay
                              > <bethjams9@. ..> wrote:
                              >
                              >> Gods favorite color is Blue
                              >> God is a people person
                              >> God likes water,
                              >> sunshine
                              >> and the outdoors
                              >> God loves astronomy
                              >> I'm not sure what Gods musical preference is
                              >> God looks nothing like Gorge Burns
                              >> But I'm sure God would enjoy a good cigar(who doesnt)
                              >> Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
                              >> Jeff Belyea wrote:
                              >>
                              >>> In response to Bob and Bruce's
                              >>> response to Era's post about
                              >>> "knowing God"...
                              >>>
                              >>> Here's my "little bit of this,
                              >>> little bit of that" from my dance:
                              >>>
                              >>> >From The Old Testament
                              >>> (repeated in the New One
                              >>> and reference several times
                              >>> as "having come to pass"):
                              >>>
                              >>> "Behold, the days come,
                              >>> saith the LORD, that I
                              >>> will make a a new covenant...
                              >>>
                              >>> I will put my law in their
                              >>> inward parts, and write it in
                              >>> their hearts; ...
                              >>>
                              >>> they shall all know me."
                              >>>
                              >>> So, if the wise say that
                              >>> they know that God is
                              >>> unknowable, they err. And
                              >>> they are wise in their
                              >>> own mind - which is
                              >>> incidently the major block
                              >>> to enlightenment.
                              >>>
                              >>> Enlightenment IS coming
                              >>> into the knowledgable
                              >>> presence of God..
                              >>> as promised.
                              >>>
                              >>> I know God.
                              >>>
                              >>> Formally introduced
                              >>> July 21, many years ago,
                              >>> at about 9:30am.
                              >>>
                              >>> And we continue to
                              >>> stay in touch.
                              >>>
                              >>> Call me ignorant if
                              >>> you must. God knows.
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >> I see you as not "ignorant,"
                              >> but perhaps playing somewhat
                              >> fast and loose with the word
                              >> "knowledge," which essentially
                              >> means "stored information. "
                              >>
                              >> As an illustration, can you
                              >> tell me what it is you "know"
                              >> of this "God?"
                              >>


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