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Re: [Meditation Society of America] Sharing, Caring, and The Buddha

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  • Ted
    ... florish is for good men to do nothing. Sean, I used to have that quote on the header of a website I used to have up for an online publication I toyed with.
    Message 1 of 13 , Sep 2, 2007
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      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean tremblay
      <bethjams9@...> wrote:
      >
      > Ego or not a wise man once said, all that it takes for evil to
      florish is for good men to do nothing.

      Sean, I used to have that quote on the header of a website I used to
      have up for an online publication I toyed with. A friend who leads a
      Sangha said once that the Sangha must find the balance between
      selflessness, forgiveness, etc., and when to give voice or make a
      stand for right. Something like that. Too many yell about the train
      but are not willing to stand in front of it. My inspiration for
      public action used to be John Wayne. Now it is Mahatma Gandhi. Or,
      of course, Jesus. It wasn't by going in with guns a'blazing but
      rather appearing to "loose" that they overcame. Love will triumph but
      only if we live it at all costs.

      >
      > Aideen McKenna <aideenmck@...> wrote: Thanks for both
      links, Ted.
      > I love the way you talked about the functions of a belt. Until
      quite recently, I was living in a "Bible Belt" & although I've found
      out that a Canadian Bible Belt is a flabby elastic band compared to
      those in your country, it seemed plenty tight & unpleasant enough. I
      wrote frequent letters to the editors of the town's 2 papers. I don't
      know whether they had any effect. Sometimes I think that letters like
      yours & mine only serve to increase the paranoia, the siege mentality,
      of the people who only want to further tighten the belt. So now &
      then, I'd give up the effort, but then there'd be another flare-up of
      hate disguised as Christianity & I'd find it too difficult to resist
      another written call for love & tolerance. Like you, I have trouble
      keeping my mouth shut. I'm not sure how much of that has to do with
      my own ego – maybe quite a lot. On the other hand, surely one can't
      just say nothing when the crazies are taking over the asylum…? I
      dunno. Anyway, yours
      > was a dandy letter.
      > Aideen
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      >
      > From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ted
      > Sent: September 2, 2007 7:34 AM
      > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Sharing, Caring, and The Buddha
      >
      >
      > Greetings all!
      >
      > I have recently become acquainted with a teacher on the Facebook
      > Sangha named Lin Zi Quan who has written some exemplary works. One of
      > them, entitled "Clearing the Misconceptions," that provides some
      > wonderful insight into Buddhism. This article is found here:
      >
      > http://www.freewebs.com/jingxinyuanmgc/dustingthemirror.htm
      >
      > This person has a Taoist/Buddhist background and great insight. Enjoy!
      >
      > Second item:
      >
      > A letter I wrote to our local newspaper, the Lufkin Daily News, was
      > printed today. I wish to share this letter. I would also like to ask
      > what you all think of the propriety of writing letters such as this
      > might be and if any have written to your local paper.
      >
      > Find the letter here:
      >
      >
      http://www.lufkindailynews.com/opin/content/news/opinion/stories/2007/9/2/letter_gresham.html
      >
      > Alternately, visit www.lufkindailynews.com , choose "Opinion" and then
      > the letter: LETTER: Cinching up the Bible belt
      >
      > The book of Philippians offers these words: "whatever is true,
      > whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is
      > lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or
      > praiseworthy—think about such things." (NIV) Selah.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > No virus found in this incoming message.
      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
      > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.1/982 - Release Date:
      8/31/07 5:21 PM
      >
      >
      > No virus found in this outgoing message.
      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
      > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/984 - Release Date:
      9/02/07 12:59 PM
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
      >
    • sean tremblay
      I asked a methodist minister his take on pacifism and action, he talked about the story of Jesus and the money changers in the temple, the ministry said that
      Message 2 of 13 , Sep 2, 2007
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        I asked a methodist minister his take on pacifism and action, he talked about the story of Jesus and the money changers in the temple,  the ministry said that some offences are so great they just need to be stopped!
        Of course there are alot of things to take action on
        A two front war that is in the Bill$$$ and Thousands in los of life
        We have a planet on the verge of ecological disaster
        Pandemics
        the list goes on. and I have digressed from the point of this group wich is meditation

        Ted <txhandyman57@...> wrote:
        --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com, sean tremblay
        <bethjams9@. ..> wrote:
        >
        > Ego or not a wise man once said, all that it takes for evil to
        florish is for good men to do nothing.

        Sean, I used to have that quote on the header of a website I used to
        have up for an online publication I toyed with. A friend who leads a
        Sangha said once that the Sangha must find the balance between
        selflessness, forgiveness, etc., and when to give voice or make a
        stand for right. Something like that. Too many yell about the train
        but are not willing to stand in front of it. My inspiration for
        public action used to be John Wayne. Now it is Mahatma Gandhi. Or,
        of course, Jesus. It wasn't by going in with guns a'blazing but
        rather appearing to "loose" that they overcame. Love will triumph but
        only if we live it at all costs.

        >
        > Aideen McKenna <aideenmck@. ..> wrote: Thanks for both
        links, Ted.
        > I love the way you talked about the functions of a belt. Until
        quite recently, I was living in a "Bible Belt" & although I've found
        out that a Canadian Bible Belt is a flabby elastic band compared to
        those in your country, it seemed plenty tight & unpleasant enough. I
        wrote frequent letters to the editors of the town's 2 papers. I don't
        know whether they had any effect. Sometimes I think that letters like
        yours & mine only serve to increase the paranoia, the siege mentality,
        of the people who only want to further tighten the belt. So now &
        then, I'd give up the effort, but then there'd be another flare-up of
        hate disguised as Christianity & I'd find it too difficult to resist
        another written call for love & tolerance. Like you, I have trouble
        keeping my mouth shut. I'm not sure how much of that has to do with
        my own ego – maybe quite a lot. On the other hand, surely one can't
        just say nothing when the crazies are taking over the asylum…? I
        dunno. Anyway, yours
        > was a dandy letter.
        > Aideen
        >
        >
        > ------------ --------- --------- ---
        >
        > From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com
        [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com] On Behalf Of Ted
        > Sent: September 2, 2007 7:34 AM
        > To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com
        > Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Sharing, Caring, and The Buddha
        >
        >
        > Greetings all!
        >
        > I have recently become acquainted with a teacher on the Facebook
        > Sangha named Lin Zi Quan who has written some exemplary works. One of
        > them, entitled "Clearing the Misconceptions, " that provides some
        > wonderful insight into Buddhism. This article is found here:
        >
        > http://www.freewebs .com/jingxinyuan mgc/dustingthemi rror.htm
        >
        > This person has a Taoist/Buddhist background and great insight. Enjoy!
        >
        > Second item:
        >
        > A letter I wrote to our local newspaper, the Lufkin Daily News, was
        > printed today. I wish to share this letter. I would also like to ask
        > what you all think of the propriety of writing letters such as this
        > might be and if any have written to your local paper.
        >
        > Find the letter here:
        >
        >
        http://www.lufkinda ilynews.com/ opin/content/ news/opinion/ stories/2007/ 9/2/letter_ gresham.html
        >
        > Alternately, visit www.lufkindailynews .com , choose "Opinion" and then
        > the letter: LETTER: Cinching up the Bible belt
        >
        > The book of Philippians offers these words: "whatever is true,
        > whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is
        > lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or
        > praiseworthy— think about such things." (NIV) Selah.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > No virus found in this incoming message.
        > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
        > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.1/982 - Release Date:
        8/31/07 5:21 PM
        >
        >
        > No virus found in this outgoing message.
        > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
        > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/984 - Release Date:
        9/02/07 12:59 PM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------ --------- --------- ---
        > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
        >



        Building a website is a piece of cake.
        Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

      • Ted
        ... talked about the story of Jesus and the money changers in the temple, the ministry said that some offences are so great they just need to be stopped! ...
        Message 3 of 13 , Sep 2, 2007
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean tremblay
          <bethjams9@...> wrote:
          >
          > I asked a methodist minister his take on pacifism and action, he
          talked about the story of Jesus and the money changers in the temple,
          the ministry said that some offences are so great they just need to
          be stopped!
          > Of course there are alot of things to take action on
          > A two front war that is in the Bill$$$ and Thousands in los of life
          > We have a planet on the verge of ecological disaster
          > Pandemics
          > the list goes on. and I have digressed from the point of this
          group wich is meditation

          Maybe we have digressed a bit but only if this discussion does not
          find its way into contemplation, into the seeking, into the knowing
          we're working on.

          I used to be one of the most bellicose of Christians, "just war" and
          all that. I am quite ashamed of those views I held. I am now an
          exceptional pacifist. To that Methodist preacher I might once have
          said, "right on" but now I would say, "sure, Jesus had authority,
          understanding, and maybe the right to insist his own father's house
          not be defiled." Then I might question the actual validity of those
          "reports" in the gospels themselves.

          Even that "was then." The question I've had to ask is where does
          peace begin? It does not begin with legislation, with protests, with
          marches, with talking heads or radio pundits or letters to the editor.
          Peace begins right here in my room, in my meditation, in my prayer.
          It begins in me. It begins in my family.

          Twenty five hundred years ago a guy named Siddhartha Gautama gave up a
          position as a prince with plenty of power to "fix" things and became a
          wondering monk. He discovered the answer to human suffering was not
          to raise a sword but to sit quietly counting breaths and releasing
          everything that causes suffering.

          Five hundred years later and a world away in the midst of a broiling
          middle-east, Jews vs. Samaritans and both vs. Romans, there was much
          to war about, complain about, rail about. All the while Jesus
          wandered across fields and sat on seashores Romans were crucifying
          Jews. Jesus could have easily led an insurrection. He didn't. He
          taught ultimate humility.

          A little over a half-century ago a scrawny little guy stood up to the
          British Empire, walked barefoot across India and made salt by the sea.
          A few decades later a little lady refused to get up in a bus. She,
          like the salt-maker and the Jewish teacher and the ex-prince changed
          history. It all came from the heart and it all began within those
          individuals.

          The way of Peace has never changed. Peace isn't a state of politics,
          it's a place of the heart. So actually this discussion has everything
          with meditation! Cool, huh?

          Hey, all this deep thought while my family watches "Selina"! Biddy
          Biddy Bambah!

          >
          > Ted <txhandyman57@...> wrote:
          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean
          tremblay
          > <bethjams9@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Ego or not a wise man once said, all that it takes for evil to
          > florish is for good men to do nothing.
          >
          > Sean, I used to have that quote on the header of a website I used to
          > have up for an online publication I toyed with. A friend who leads a
          > Sangha said once that the Sangha must find the balance between
          > selflessness, forgiveness, etc., and when to give voice or make a
          > stand for right. Something like that. Too many yell about the train
          > but are not willing to stand in front of it. My inspiration for
          > public action used to be John Wayne. Now it is Mahatma Gandhi. Or,
          > of course, Jesus. It wasn't by going in with guns a'blazing but
          > rather appearing to "loose" that they overcame. Love will triumph but
          > only if we live it at all costs.
          >
          > >
          > > Aideen McKenna <aideenmck@> wrote: Thanks for both
          > links, Ted.
          > > I love the way you talked about the functions of a belt. Until
          > quite recently, I was living in a "Bible Belt" & although I've found
          > out that a Canadian Bible Belt is a flabby elastic band compared to
          > those in your country, it seemed plenty tight & unpleasant enough. I
          > wrote frequent letters to the editors of the town's 2 papers. I don't
          > know whether they had any effect. Sometimes I think that letters like
          > yours & mine only serve to increase the paranoia, the siege mentality,
          > of the people who only want to further tighten the belt. So now &
          > then, I'd give up the effort, but then there'd be another flare-up of
          > hate disguised as Christianity & I'd find it too difficult to resist
          > another written call for love & tolerance. Like you, I have trouble
          > keeping my mouth shut. I'm not sure how much of that has to do with
          > my own ego – maybe quite a lot. On the other hand, surely one can't
          > just say nothing when the crazies are taking over the asylum…? I
          > dunno. Anyway, yours
          > > was a dandy letter.
          > > Aideen
          > >
          > >
          > > ---------------------------------
          > >
          > > From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ted
          > > Sent: September 2, 2007 7:34 AM
          > > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Sharing, Caring, and The
          Buddha
          > >
          > >
          > > Greetings all!
          > >
          > > I have recently become acquainted with a teacher on the Facebook
          > > Sangha named Lin Zi Quan who has written some exemplary works. One of
          > > them, entitled "Clearing the Misconceptions," that provides some
          > > wonderful insight into Buddhism. This article is found here:
          > >
          > > http://www.freewebs.com/jingxinyuanmgc/dustingthemirror.htm
          > >
          > > This person has a Taoist/Buddhist background and great insight. Enjoy!
          > >
          > > Second item:
          > >
          > > A letter I wrote to our local newspaper, the Lufkin Daily News, was
          > > printed today. I wish to share this letter. I would also like to ask
          > > what you all think of the propriety of writing letters such as this
          > > might be and if any have written to your local paper.
          > >
          > > Find the letter here:
          > >
          > >
          >
          http://www.lufkindailynews.com/opin/content/news/opinion/stories/2007/9/2/letter_gresham.html
          > >
          > > Alternately, visit www.lufkindailynews.com , choose "Opinion" and then
          > > the letter: LETTER: Cinching up the Bible belt
          > >
          > > The book of Philippians offers these words: "whatever is true,
          > > whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is
          > > lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or
          > > praiseworthy—think about such things." (NIV) Selah.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > No virus found in this incoming message.
          > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
          > > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.1/982 - Release Date:
          > 8/31/07 5:21 PM
          > >
          > >
          > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
          > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
          > > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/984 - Release Date:
          > 9/02/07 12:59 PM
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ---------------------------------
          > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Building a website is a piece of cake.
          > Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
          >
        • sean tremblay
          I don t think the minister was equating violence with action, you had given great examples of non violent action I personally suffer from the guilt of non
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 3, 2007
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            I don't think the minister was equating violence with action, you had given great examples of non violent action
            I personally suffer from the guilt of non action at such a volitial time in history, the fact is I am caught up in the struggle for survival like everyone else. Ted you also gave agreat example of the politics of the middle east in the time of Jesus and how it parralels with whats happening now, the biggest difference is the amount of damage that can be done now compared to then. In one day we can kill what would have taken a year of constant warfare.
            The damage we can do environmentaly is hundreds of times greater than what we were able to do even during the industrial revolution, so purhaps I'm in the camp that feels that Right thought and Right speech are not enough
            Then again I don't have a leg to stand on in this dept, between buisness and work and mortgages and kids and school I might have the energy to just go for a ride and drop it all for an hour or so.

            Ted <txhandyman57@...> wrote:
            --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com, sean tremblay
            <bethjams9@. ..> wrote:
            >
            > I asked a methodist minister his take on pacifism and action, he
            talked about the story of Jesus and the money changers in the temple,
            the ministry said that some offences are so great they just need to
            be stopped!
            > Of course there are alot of things to take action on
            > A two front war that is in the Bill$$$ and Thousands in los of life
            > We have a planet on the verge of ecological disaster
            > Pandemics
            > the list goes on. and I have digressed from the point of this
            group wich is meditation

            Maybe we have digressed a bit but only if this discussion does not
            find its way into contemplation, into the seeking, into the knowing
            we're working on.

            I used to be one of the most bellicose of Christians, "just war" and
            all that. I am quite ashamed of those views I held. I am now an
            exceptional pacifist. To that Methodist preacher I might once have
            said, "right on" but now I would say, "sure, Jesus had authority,
            understanding, and maybe the right to insist his own father's house
            not be defiled." Then I might question the actual validity of those
            "reports" in the gospels themselves.

            Even that "was then." The question I've had to ask is where does
            peace begin? It does not begin with legislation, with protests, with
            marches, with talking heads or radio pundits or letters to the editor.
            Peace begins right here in my room, in my meditation, in my prayer.
            It begins in me. It begins in my family.

            Twenty five hundred years ago a guy named Siddhartha Gautama gave up a
            position as a prince with plenty of power to "fix" things and became a
            wondering monk. He discovered the answer to human suffering was not
            to raise a sword but to sit quietly counting breaths and releasing
            everything that causes suffering.

            Five hundred years later and a world away in the midst of a broiling
            middle-east, Jews vs. Samaritans and both vs. Romans, there was much
            to war about, complain about, rail about. All the while Jesus
            wandered across fields and sat on seashores Romans were crucifying
            Jews. Jesus could have easily led an insurrection. He didn't. He
            taught ultimate humility.

            A little over a half-century ago a scrawny little guy stood up to the
            British Empire, walked barefoot across India and made salt by the sea.
            A few decades later a little lady refused to get up in a bus. She,
            like the salt-maker and the Jewish teacher and the ex-prince changed
            history. It all came from the heart and it all began within those
            individuals.

            The way of Peace has never changed. Peace isn't a state of politics,
            it's a place of the heart. So actually this discussion has everything
            with meditation! Cool, huh?

            Hey, all this deep thought while my family watches "Selina"! Biddy
            Biddy Bambah!

            >
            > Ted <txhandyman57@ ...> wrote:
            > --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com, sean
            tremblay
            > <bethjams9@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Ego or not a wise man once said, all that it takes for evil to
            > florish is for good men to do nothing.
            >
            > Sean, I used to have that quote on the header of a website I used to
            > have up for an online publication I toyed with. A friend who leads a
            > Sangha said once that the Sangha must find the balance between
            > selflessness, forgiveness, etc., and when to give voice or make a
            > stand for right. Something like that. Too many yell about the train
            > but are not willing to stand in front of it. My inspiration for
            > public action used to be John Wayne. Now it is Mahatma Gandhi. Or,
            > of course, Jesus. It wasn't by going in with guns a'blazing but
            > rather appearing to "loose" that they overcame. Love will triumph but
            > only if we live it at all costs.
            >
            > >
            > > Aideen McKenna <aideenmck@> wrote: Thanks for both
            > links, Ted.
            > > I love the way you talked about the functions of a belt. Until
            > quite recently, I was living in a "Bible Belt" & although I've found
            > out that a Canadian Bible Belt is a flabby elastic band compared to
            > those in your country, it seemed plenty tight & unpleasant enough. I
            > wrote frequent letters to the editors of the town's 2 papers. I don't
            > know whether they had any effect. Sometimes I think that letters like
            > yours & mine only serve to increase the paranoia, the siege mentality,
            > of the people who only want to further tighten the belt. So now &
            > then, I'd give up the effort, but then there'd be another flare-up of
            > hate disguised as Christianity & I'd find it too difficult to resist
            > another written call for love & tolerance. Like you, I have trouble
            > keeping my mouth shut. I'm not sure how much of that has to do with
            > my own ego – maybe quite a lot. On the other hand, surely one can't
            > just say nothing when the crazies are taking over the asylum…? I
            > dunno. Anyway, yours
            > > was a dandy letter.
            > > Aideen
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------ --------- --------- ---
            > >
            > > From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com
            > [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com] On Behalf Of Ted
            > > Sent: September 2, 2007 7:34 AM
            > > To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com
            > > Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Sharing, Caring, and The
            Buddha
            > >
            > >
            > > Greetings all!
            > >
            > > I have recently become acquainted with a teacher on the Facebook
            > > Sangha named Lin Zi Quan who has written some exemplary works. One of
            > > them, entitled "Clearing the Misconceptions, " that provides some
            > > wonderful insight into Buddhism. This article is found here:
            > >
            > > http://www.freewebs .com/jingxinyuan mgc/dustingthemi rror.htm
            > >
            > > This person has a Taoist/Buddhist background and great insight. Enjoy!
            > >
            > > Second item:
            > >
            > > A letter I wrote to our local newspaper, the Lufkin Daily News, was
            > > printed today. I wish to share this letter. I would also like to ask
            > > what you all think of the propriety of writing letters such as this
            > > might be and if any have written to your local paper.
            > >
            > > Find the letter here:
            > >
            > >
            >
            http://www.lufkinda ilynews.com/ opin/content/ news/opinion/ stories/2007/ 9/2/letter_ gresham.html
            > >
            > > Alternately, visit www.lufkindailynews .com , choose "Opinion" and then
            > > the letter: LETTER: Cinching up the Bible belt
            > >
            > > The book of Philippians offers these words: "whatever is true,
            > > whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is
            > > lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or
            > > praiseworthy— think about such things." (NIV) Selah.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > No virus found in this incoming message.
            > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
            > > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.1/982 - Release Date:
            > 8/31/07 5:21 PM
            > >
            > >
            > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
            > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
            > > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/984 - Release Date:
            > 9/02/07 12:59 PM
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------ --------- --------- ---
            > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------ --------- --------- ---
            > Building a website is a piece of cake.
            > Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
            >



            Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
            Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.

          • Jeff Belyea
            The value of meditation, or the act of meditating, may be seen as too passive in light of the overt and obvious damage of warfare and environmental neglect and
            Message 5 of 13 , Sep 3, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              The value of meditation,
              or the act of meditating,
              may be seen as too passive
              in light of the overt and
              obvious damage of warfare
              and environmental neglect
              and exploitation, but...

              Meditation as a means to
              an end; that is, a loving
              kindness and compassion
              that comes from the heart
              rather than an intellectual
              "wish" that we were more
              kind and globally compassionate,
              can provoke us and bring us
              to action. This (meditation)
              is often a necessary and
              critical first step.

              As meditation moves us to
              the heart level, and then
              the heart and mind level,
              we move with a "choiceless
              obligation" to be more
              involved in act of kindness
              and compassion - even if
              those "acts" are simply to
              encourage meditation as
              we attend to our own level
              of consciousness that is
              kind and compassionate.
              (Regular meditation is a
              great maintenance tool.)

              As Ramana Maharshi said,
              "Aspirants meditate to attain,
              and awakened meditate to maintain."

              As more people meditate to
              the depth of the heart stirring,
              the world moves toward global
              kindness, compassion, and
              environmental sensitivity.

              The powerfully simplistic
              mission of the Unity movement,
              "Peace on earth begins with me,"
              comes to mind.


              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean tremblay
              <bethjams9@...> wrote:
              >
              > I don't think the minister was equating violence with action, you
              had given great examples of non violent action
              > I personally suffer from the guilt of non action at such a
              volitial time in history, the fact is I am caught up in the struggle
              for survival like everyone else. Ted you also gave agreat example of
              the politics of the middle east in the time of Jesus and how it
              parralels with whats happening now, the biggest difference is the
              amount of damage that can be done now compared to then. In one day we
              can kill what would have taken a year of constant warfare.
              > The damage we can do environmentaly is hundreds of times greater
              than what we were able to do even during the industrial revolution,
              so purhaps I'm in the camp that feels that Right thought and Right
              speech are not enough
              > Then again I don't have a leg to stand on in this dept, between
              buisness and work and mortgages and kids and school I might have the
              energy to just go for a ride and drop it all for an hour or so.
              >
              > Ted <txhandyman57@...> wrote:
              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean
              tremblay
              > <bethjams9@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I asked a methodist minister his take on pacifism and action, he
              > talked about the story of Jesus and the money changers in the
              temple,
              > the ministry said that some offences are so great they just need to
              > be stopped!
              > > Of course there are alot of things to take action on
              > > A two front war that is in the Bill$$$ and Thousands in los of
              life
              > > We have a planet on the verge of ecological disaster
              > > Pandemics
              > > the list goes on. and I have digressed from the point of this
              > group wich is meditation
              >
              > Maybe we have digressed a bit but only if this discussion does not
              > find its way into contemplation, into the seeking, into the knowing
              > we're working on.
              >
              > I used to be one of the most bellicose of Christians, "just war" and
              > all that. I am quite ashamed of those views I held. I am now an
              > exceptional pacifist. To that Methodist preacher I might once have
              > said, "right on" but now I would say, "sure, Jesus had authority,
              > understanding, and maybe the right to insist his own father's house
              > not be defiled." Then I might question the actual validity of those
              > "reports" in the gospels themselves.
              >
              > Even that "was then." The question I've had to ask is where does
              > peace begin? It does not begin with legislation, with protests, with
              > marches, with talking heads or radio pundits or letters to the
              editor.
              > Peace begins right here in my room, in my meditation, in my prayer.
              > It begins in me. It begins in my family.
              >
              > Twenty five hundred years ago a guy named Siddhartha Gautama gave
              up a
              > position as a prince with plenty of power to "fix" things and
              became a
              > wondering monk. He discovered the answer to human suffering was not
              > to raise a sword but to sit quietly counting breaths and releasing
              > everything that causes suffering.
              >
              > Five hundred years later and a world away in the midst of a broiling
              > middle-east, Jews vs. Samaritans and both vs. Romans, there was much
              > to war about, complain about, rail about. All the while Jesus
              > wandered across fields and sat on seashores Romans were crucifying
              > Jews. Jesus could have easily led an insurrection. He didn't. He
              > taught ultimate humility.
              >
              > A little over a half-century ago a scrawny little guy stood up to
              the
              > British Empire, walked barefoot across India and made salt by the
              sea.
              > A few decades later a little lady refused to get up in a bus. She,
              > like the salt-maker and the Jewish teacher and the ex-prince changed
              > history. It all came from the heart and it all began within those
              > individuals.
              >
              > The way of Peace has never changed. Peace isn't a state of politics,
              > it's a place of the heart. So actually this discussion has
              everything
              > with meditation! Cool, huh?
              >
              > Hey, all this deep thought while my family watches "Selina"! Biddy
              > Biddy Bambah!
              >
              > >
              > > Ted <txhandyman57@> wrote:
              > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean
              > tremblay
              > > <bethjams9@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Ego or not a wise man once said, all that it takes for evil to
              > > florish is for good men to do nothing.
              > >
              > > Sean, I used to have that quote on the header of a website I used
              to
              > > have up for an online publication I toyed with. A friend who
              leads a
              > > Sangha said once that the Sangha must find the balance between
              > > selflessness, forgiveness, etc., and when to give voice or make a
              > > stand for right. Something like that. Too many yell about the
              train
              > > but are not willing to stand in front of it. My inspiration for
              > > public action used to be John Wayne. Now it is Mahatma Gandhi. Or,
              > > of course, Jesus. It wasn't by going in with guns a'blazing but
              > > rather appearing to "loose" that they overcame. Love will triumph
              but
              > > only if we live it at all costs.
              > >
              > > >
              > > > Aideen McKenna <aideenmck@> wrote: Thanks for both
              > > links, Ted.
              > > > I love the way you talked about the functions of a belt. Until
              > > quite recently, I was living in a "Bible Belt" & although I've
              found
              > > out that a Canadian Bible Belt is a flabby elastic band compared
              to
              > > those in your country, it seemed plenty tight & unpleasant
              enough. I
              > > wrote frequent letters to the editors of the town's 2 papers. I
              don't
              > > know whether they had any effect. Sometimes I think that letters
              like
              > > yours & mine only serve to increase the paranoia, the siege
              mentality,
              > > of the people who only want to further tighten the belt. So now &
              > > then, I'd give up the effort, but then there'd be another flare-
              up of
              > > hate disguised as Christianity & I'd find it too difficult to
              resist
              > > another written call for love & tolerance. Like you, I have
              trouble
              > > keeping my mouth shut. I'm not sure how much of that has to do
              with
              > > my own ego – maybe quite a lot. On the other hand, surely one
              can't
              > > just say nothing when the crazies are taking over the asylum…? I
              > > dunno. Anyway, yours
              > > > was a dandy letter.
              > > > Aideen
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ---------------------------------
              > > >
              > > > From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
              > > [mailto:meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              Ted
              > > > Sent: September 2, 2007 7:34 AM
              > > > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
              > > > Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Sharing, Caring, and
              The
              > Buddha
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Greetings all!
              > > >
              > > > I have recently become acquainted with a teacher on the Facebook
              > > > Sangha named Lin Zi Quan who has written some exemplary works.
              One of
              > > > them, entitled "Clearing the Misconceptions," that provides some
              > > > wonderful insight into Buddhism. This article is found here:
              > > >
              > > > http://www.freewebs.com/jingxinyuanmgc/dustingthemirror.htm
              > > >
              > > > This person has a Taoist/Buddhist background and great insight.
              Enjoy!
              > > >
              > > > Second item:
              > > >
              > > > A letter I wrote to our local newspaper, the Lufkin Daily News,
              was
              > > > printed today. I wish to share this letter. I would also like
              to ask
              > > > what you all think of the propriety of writing letters such as
              this
              > > > might be and if any have written to your local paper.
              > > >
              > > > Find the letter here:
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              http://www.lufkindailynews.com/opin/content/news/opinion/stories/2007/
              9/2/letter_gresham.html
              > > >
              > > > Alternately, visit www.lufkindailynews.com , choose "Opinion"
              and then
              > > > the letter: LETTER: Cinching up the Bible belt
              > > >
              > > > The book of Philippians offers these words: "whatever is true,
              > > > whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure,
              whatever is
              > > > lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or
              > > > praiseworthy—think about such things." (NIV) Selah.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
              > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
              > > > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.1/982 - Release Date:
              > > 8/31/07 5:21 PM
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
              > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
              > > > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/984 - Release Date:
              > > 9/02/07 12:59 PM
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ---------------------------------
              > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo!
              Travel.
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ---------------------------------
              > > Building a website is a piece of cake.
              > > Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative
              vehicles.
              > Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
              >
            • Ted
              ... had given great examples of non violent action ... volitial time in history, the fact is I am caught up in the struggle for survival like everyone else.
              Message 6 of 13 , Sep 3, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean tremblay
                <bethjams9@...> wrote:
                >
                > I don't think the minister was equating violence with action, you
                had given great examples of non violent action
                > I personally suffer from the guilt of non action at such a
                volitial time in history, the fact is I am caught up in the struggle
                for survival like everyone else. Ted you also gave agreat example of
                the politics of the middle east in the time of Jesus and how it
                parralels with whats happening now, the biggest difference is the
                amount of damage that can be done now compared to then. In one day we
                can kill what would have taken a year of constant warfare.
                > The damage we can do environmentally is hundreds of times greater
                than what we were able to do even during the industrial revolution, so
                purhaps I'm in the camp that feels that Right thought and Right speech
                are not enough
                > Then again I don't have a leg to stand on in this dept, between
                buisness and work and mortgages and kids and school I might have the
                energy to just go for a ride and drop it all for an hour or so.
                >

                I share your guilt, Sean. I sit out here in the woods extremely
                isolated, mostly broke, and unable so far to find even a low paying
                job in this area I can work at. But truthfully, we should not have
                guilt. We do what we can do. How can we do what we can not do?

                Notice I said Peace starts at home. Doesn't end there. We actually
                make a difference in all we do if we begin to focus our lives and
                attitudes in the right direction. In this country we always have the
                power to vote. Not sure if it's "fixed" or not but it's something.
                Then there's letters to the editor (written in the right spirit, of
                course), sharing, and just living. The key is not to meet force with
                force but force with a type of yielding that re-directs. This is the
                message of all those folks I mentioned.

                The fact is, Sean, there's very little we can do as individuals to
                "change things," either end the war or stop violence or protect the
                environment. If we're participating in destruction somehow we can
                stop what we're doing, of course. There is an element of the Eight
                Fold Path that is totally ignored most of the time. It's Right Work
                (Livelihood). This element says that we must choose a profession that
                does no harm. Thus choosing a career is important and how we work at
                our job is also important. Every little thing has a consequence.

                Our town has a little "defense" plant. They build PC circuits for
                cruise missiles. What's the harm in slipping a chip onto a PC Board?
                Nothing if it's for a radio. But those PC boards go into devices that
                kill, usually indiscriminately. I could never work there. I even
                chide my wife some because she works at an personnel services company
                that hires and conducts initial training for those people at the
                plant. Where does "do no harm" begin? We have to answer that for
                ourselves.

                But, some would ask, how can I not do my job? That might mean lower
                pay, transitions, moving, loosing stuff, on and on. Is it fair?
                Should I do that? Christians quibble, rationalize, but the fact is
                that Jesus said, "sell it all and follow me." Likewise, Gautama would
                say, "what is fair? There is The Path or not the path." Yes, I'm a
                radical sometimes. I have always been one, actually. It has cost me
                a couple of well paying jobs. And I've never had anybody commend me
                for my ethics. I've been blasted for "blowing a good job" by being a
                "fanatic" about honesty. Such is life. I didn't write the morals, I
                just follow them. .... I digress...

                Most of us don't face this Right Livelihood dilemma. If we're doing
                all we know to do, buying "green" and living "green" and not
                supporting violence and have Right Livelihood then the problems are
                beyond us. They are being created by others who have not discovered
                the Truth we have discovered. To correct the problems requires them
                to change. This is where the "meditation and prayer" beginning comes in.

                The way we deal with others depends upon how we've learned to deal
                with ourselves, our family, and our faith. In the beginning all we
                can do is live Metta, loving kindness, compassion, towards all, no
                matter how they are returned. From there, when the time and place and
                opportunity presents itself we share truth (peace, environmental
                protection, etc) with those who are willing to listen. We waste our
                time and make enemies when we blast others with stuff when we know
                they disagree and won't listen. That's the whole problem with
                in-your-face evangelism.

                It's a long-term process. We make the choice to live Metta and love.
                In time, others recognize and are open to hearing why. Even more
                time will pass before any results will be seen in others--if we ever
                see it at all. This process is how the vast majority of us should
                live. We do and there's nothing for us to be guilty about.

                There are ways to do more. Some do a lot. Some enter politics, some
                are scientists, writers, etc. Some become "Gandhis." They can do more
                and they bear a greater responsibility. Less than that we can give
                when we have it or volunteer if it's possible.

                We should not feel guilt for the world. We cannot fix the world. We
                should not feel guilt for others. We cannot change others. We should
                not feel guilt for self. If there's something we're doing that is not
                productive then we change it. If we get new information about
                something we were doing that was not good, we stop doing it. If we
                are guilty then we are guilty by choice for we are doing something
                deliberately that we feel we should not do. If we're choosing to do
                something the guilt is silly. Anyway, that's what I think. What you
                think?

                Selah! haha

                Pseudoyen Ted


                > Ted <txhandyman57@...> wrote:
                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean
                tremblay
                > <bethjams9@> wrote:
                > >
                > > I asked a methodist minister his take on pacifism and action, he
                > talked about the story of Jesus and the money changers in the temple,
                > the ministry said that some offences are so great they just need to
                > be stopped!
                > > Of course there are alot of things to take action on
                > > A two front war that is in the Bill$$$ and Thousands in los of life
                > > We have a planet on the verge of ecological disaster
                > > Pandemics
                > > the list goes on. and I have digressed from the point of this
                > group wich is meditation
                >
                > Maybe we have digressed a bit but only if this discussion does not
                > find its way into contemplation, into the seeking, into the knowing
                > we're working on.
                >
                > I used to be one of the most bellicose of Christians, "just war" and
                > all that. I am quite ashamed of those views I held. I am now an
                > exceptional pacifist. To that Methodist preacher I might once have
                > said, "right on" but now I would say, "sure, Jesus had authority,
                > understanding, and maybe the right to insist his own father's house
                > not be defiled." Then I might question the actual validity of those
                > "reports" in the gospels themselves.
                >
                > Even that "was then." The question I've had to ask is where does
                > peace begin? It does not begin with legislation, with protests, with
                > marches, with talking heads or radio pundits or letters to the editor.
                > Peace begins right here in my room, in my meditation, in my prayer.
                > It begins in me. It begins in my family.
                >
                > Twenty five hundred years ago a guy named Siddhartha Gautama gave up a
                > position as a prince with plenty of power to "fix" things and became a
                > wondering monk. He discovered the answer to human suffering was not
                > to raise a sword but to sit quietly counting breaths and releasing
                > everything that causes suffering.
                >
                > Five hundred years later and a world away in the midst of a broiling
                > middle-east, Jews vs. Samaritans and both vs. Romans, there was much
                > to war about, complain about, rail about. All the while Jesus
                > wandered across fields and sat on seashores Romans were crucifying
                > Jews. Jesus could have easily led an insurrection. He didn't. He
                > taught ultimate humility.
                >
                > A little over a half-century ago a scrawny little guy stood up to the
                > British Empire, walked barefoot across India and made salt by the sea.
                > A few decades later a little lady refused to get up in a bus. She,
                > like the salt-maker and the Jewish teacher and the ex-prince changed
                > history. It all came from the heart and it all began within those
                > individuals.
                >
                > The way of Peace has never changed. Peace isn't a state of politics,
                > it's a place of the heart. So actually this discussion has everything
                > with meditation! Cool, huh?
                >
                > Hey, all this deep thought while my family watches "Selina"! Biddy
                > Biddy Bambah!
                >
                > >
                > > Ted <txhandyman57@> wrote:
                > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean
                > tremblay
                > > <bethjams9@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Ego or not a wise man once said, all that it takes for evil to
                > > florish is for good men to do nothing.
                > >
                > > Sean, I used to have that quote on the header of a website I used to
                > > have up for an online publication I toyed with. A friend who leads a
                > > Sangha said once that the Sangha must find the balance between
                > > selflessness, forgiveness, etc., and when to give voice or make a
                > > stand for right. Something like that. Too many yell about the train
                > > but are not willing to stand in front of it. My inspiration for
                > > public action used to be John Wayne. Now it is Mahatma Gandhi. Or,
                > > of course, Jesus. It wasn't by going in with guns a'blazing but
                > > rather appearing to "loose" that they overcame. Love will triumph but
                > > only if we live it at all costs.
                > >
                > > >
                > > > Aideen McKenna <aideenmck@> wrote: Thanks for both
                > > links, Ted.
                > > > I love the way you talked about the functions of a belt. Until
                > > quite recently, I was living in a "Bible Belt" & although I've found
                > > out that a Canadian Bible Belt is a flabby elastic band compared to
                > > those in your country, it seemed plenty tight & unpleasant enough. I
                > > wrote frequent letters to the editors of the town's 2 papers. I don't
                > > know whether they had any effect. Sometimes I think that letters like
                > > yours & mine only serve to increase the paranoia, the siege mentality,
                > > of the people who only want to further tighten the belt. So now &
                > > then, I'd give up the effort, but then there'd be another flare-up of
                > > hate disguised as Christianity & I'd find it too difficult to resist
                > > another written call for love & tolerance. Like you, I have trouble
                > > keeping my mouth shut. I'm not sure how much of that has to do with
                > > my own ego – maybe quite a lot. On the other hand, surely one can't
                > > just say nothing when the crazies are taking over the asylum…? I
                > > dunno. Anyway, yours
                > > > was a dandy letter.
                > > > Aideen
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ---------------------------------
                > > >
                > > > From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                > > [mailto:meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ted
                > > > Sent: September 2, 2007 7:34 AM
                > > > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                > > > Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Sharing, Caring, and The
                > Buddha
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Greetings all!
                > > >
                > > > I have recently become acquainted with a teacher on the Facebook
                > > > Sangha named Lin Zi Quan who has written some exemplary works.
                One of
                > > > them, entitled "Clearing the Misconceptions," that provides some
                > > > wonderful insight into Buddhism. This article is found here:
                > > >
                > > > http://www.freewebs.com/jingxinyuanmgc/dustingthemirror.htm
                > > >
                > > > This person has a Taoist/Buddhist background and great insight.
                Enjoy!
                > > >
                > > > Second item:
                > > >
                > > > A letter I wrote to our local newspaper, the Lufkin Daily News, was
                > > > printed today. I wish to share this letter. I would also like to ask
                > > > what you all think of the propriety of writing letters such as this
                > > > might be and if any have written to your local paper.
                > > >
                > > > Find the letter here:
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
                http://www.lufkindailynews.com/opin/content/news/opinion/stories/2007/9/2/letter_gresham.html
                > > >
                > > > Alternately, visit www.lufkindailynews.com , choose "Opinion"
                and then
                > > > the letter: LETTER: Cinching up the Bible belt
                > > >
                > > > The book of Philippians offers these words: "whatever is true,
                > > > whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is
                > > > lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or
                > > > praiseworthy—think about such things." (NIV) Selah.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                > > > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.1/982 - Release Date:
                > > 8/31/07 5:21 PM
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                > > > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/984 - Release Date:
                > > 9/02/07 12:59 PM
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ---------------------------------
                > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ---------------------------------
                > > Building a website is a piece of cake.
                > > Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
                > Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
                >
              • sean tremblay
                Well Ted I decided to go back to school and eventualy study law. I realized as long as I work with my body I will always be subject to the will and intent of
                Message 7 of 13 , Sep 3, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Well Ted I decided to go back to school and eventualy study law.  I realized as long as I work with my body I will always be subject to the will and intent of those above me(harder to practice the ZRight Livelyhood.) Also I'm not gettting younger so it's time to movr on mentaly physicaly and spiritualy, I'll write more in depth later my hand is still bandanged and I'm all over the key board

                  Ted <txhandyman57@...> wrote:
                  --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com, sean tremblay
                  <bethjams9@. ..> wrote:
                  >
                  > I don't think the minister was equating violence with action, you
                  had given great examples of non violent action
                  > I personally suffer from the guilt of non action at such a
                  volitial time in history, the fact is I am caught up in the struggle
                  for survival like everyone else. Ted you also gave agreat example of
                  the politics of the middle east in the time of Jesus and how it
                  parralels with whats happening now, the biggest difference is the
                  amount of damage that can be done now compared to then. In one day we
                  can kill what would have taken a year of constant warfare.
                  > The damage we can do environmentally is hundreds of times greater
                  than what we were able to do even during the industrial revolution, so
                  purhaps I'm in the camp that feels that Right thought and Right speech
                  are not enough
                  > Then again I don't have a leg to stand on in this dept, between
                  buisness and work and mortgages and kids and school I might have the
                  energy to just go for a ride and drop it all for an hour or so.
                  >

                  I share your guilt, Sean. I sit out here in the woods extremely
                  isolated, mostly broke, and unable so far to find even a low paying
                  job in this area I can work at. But truthfully, we should not have
                  guilt. We do what we can do. How can we do what we can not do?

                  Notice I said Peace starts at home. Doesn't end there. We actually
                  make a difference in all we do if we begin to focus our lives and
                  attitudes in the right direction. In this country we always have the
                  power to vote. Not sure if it's "fixed" or not but it's something.
                  Then there's letters to the editor (written in the right spirit, of
                  course), sharing, and just living. The key is not to meet force with
                  force but force with a type of yielding that re-directs. This is the
                  message of all those folks I mentioned.

                  The fact is, Sean, there's very little we can do as individuals to
                  "change things," either end the war or stop violence or protect the
                  environment. If we're participating in destruction somehow we can
                  stop what we're doing, of course. There is an element of the Eight
                  Fold Path that is totally ignored most of the time. It's Right Work
                  (Livelihood) . This element says that we must choose a profession that
                  does no harm. Thus choosing a career is important and how we work at
                  our job is also important. Every little thing has a consequence.

                  Our town has a little "defense" plant. They build PC circuits for
                  cruise missiles. What's the harm in slipping a chip onto a PC Board?
                  Nothing if it's for a radio. But those PC boards go into devices that
                  kill, usually indiscriminately. I could never work there. I even
                  chide my wife some because she works at an personnel services company
                  that hires and conducts initial training for those people at the
                  plant. Where does "do no harm" begin? We have to answer that for
                  ourselves.

                  But, some would ask, how can I not do my job? That might mean lower
                  pay, transitions, moving, loosing stuff, on and on. Is it fair?
                  Should I do that? Christians quibble, rationalize, but the fact is
                  that Jesus said, "sell it all and follow me." Likewise, Gautama would
                  say, "what is fair? There is The Path or not the path." Yes, I'm a
                  radical sometimes. I have always been one, actually. It has cost me
                  a couple of well paying jobs. And I've never had anybody commend me
                  for my ethics. I've been blasted for "blowing a good job" by being a
                  "fanatic" about honesty. Such is life. I didn't write the morals, I
                  just follow them. .... I digress...

                  Most of us don't face this Right Livelihood dilemma. If we're doing
                  all we know to do, buying "green" and living "green" and not
                  supporting violence and have Right Livelihood then the problems are
                  beyond us. They are being created by others who have not discovered
                  the Truth we have discovered. To correct the problems requires them
                  to change. This is where the "meditation and prayer" beginning comes in.

                  The way we deal with others depends upon how we've learned to deal
                  with ourselves, our family, and our faith. In the beginning all we
                  can do is live Metta, loving kindness, compassion, towards all, no
                  matter how they are returned. From there, when the time and place and
                  opportunity presents itself we share truth (peace, environmental
                  protection, etc) with those who are willing to listen. We waste our
                  time and make enemies when we blast others with stuff when we know
                  they disagree and won't listen. That's the whole problem with
                  in-your-face evangelism.

                  It's a long-term process. We make the choice to live Metta and love.
                  In time, others recognize and are open to hearing why. Even more
                  time will pass before any results will be seen in others--if we ever
                  see it at all. This process is how the vast majority of us should
                  live. We do and there's nothing for us to be guilty about.

                  There are ways to do more. Some do a lot. Some enter politics, some
                  are scientists, writers, etc. Some become "Gandhis." They can do more
                  and they bear a greater responsibility. Less than that we can give
                  when we have it or volunteer if it's possible.

                  We should not feel guilt for the world. We cannot fix the world. We
                  should not feel guilt for others. We cannot change others. We should
                  not feel guilt for self. If there's something we're doing that is not
                  productive then we change it. If we get new information about
                  something we were doing that was not good, we stop doing it. If we
                  are guilty then we are guilty by choice for we are doing something
                  deliberately that we feel we should not do. If we're choosing to do
                  something the guilt is silly. Anyway, that's what I think. What you
                  think?

                  Selah! haha

                  Pseudoyen Ted

                  > Ted <txhandyman57@ ...> wrote:
                  > --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com, sean
                  tremblay
                  > <bethjams9@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I asked a methodist minister his take on pacifism and action, he
                  > talked about the story of Jesus and the money changers in the temple,
                  > the ministry said that some offences are so great they just need to
                  > be stopped!
                  > > Of course there are alot of things to take action on
                  > > A two front war that is in the Bill$$$ and Thousands in los of life
                  > > We have a planet on the verge of ecological disaster
                  > > Pandemics
                  > > the list goes on. and I have digressed from the point of this
                  > group wich is meditation
                  >
                  > Maybe we have digressed a bit but only if this discussion does not
                  > find its way into contemplation, into the seeking, into the knowing
                  > we're working on.
                  >
                  > I used to be one of the most bellicose of Christians, "just war" and
                  > all that. I am quite ashamed of those views I held. I am now an
                  > exceptional pacifist. To that Methodist preacher I might once have
                  > said, "right on" but now I would say, "sure, Jesus had authority,
                  > understanding, and maybe the right to insist his own father's house
                  > not be defiled." Then I might question the actual validity of those
                  > "reports" in the gospels themselves.
                  >
                  > Even that "was then." The question I've had to ask is where does
                  > peace begin? It does not begin with legislation, with protests, with
                  > marches, with talking heads or radio pundits or letters to the editor.
                  > Peace begins right here in my room, in my meditation, in my prayer.
                  > It begins in me. It begins in my family.
                  >
                  > Twenty five hundred years ago a guy named Siddhartha Gautama gave up a
                  > position as a prince with plenty of power to "fix" things and became a
                  > wondering monk. He discovered the answer to human suffering was not
                  > to raise a sword but to sit quietly counting breaths and releasing
                  > everything that causes suffering.
                  >
                  > Five hundred years later and a world away in the midst of a broiling
                  > middle-east, Jews vs. Samaritans and both vs. Romans, there was much
                  > to war about, complain about, rail about. All the while Jesus
                  > wandered across fields and sat on seashores Romans were crucifying
                  > Jews. Jesus could have easily led an insurrection. He didn't. He
                  > taught ultimate humility.
                  >
                  > A little over a half-century ago a scrawny little guy stood up to the
                  > British Empire, walked barefoot across India and made salt by the sea.
                  > A few decades later a little lady refused to get up in a bus. She,
                  > like the salt-maker and the Jewish teacher and the ex-prince changed
                  > history. It all came from the heart and it all began within those
                  > individuals.
                  >
                  > The way of Peace has never changed. Peace isn't a state of politics,
                  > it's a place of the heart. So actually this discussion has everything
                  > with meditation! Cool, huh?
                  >
                  > Hey, all this deep thought while my family watches "Selina"! Biddy
                  > Biddy Bambah!
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Ted <txhandyman57@ > wrote:
                  > > --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com, sean
                  > tremblay
                  > > <bethjams9@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Ego or not a wise man once said, all that it takes for evil to
                  > > florish is for good men to do nothing.
                  > >
                  > > Sean, I used to have that quote on the header of a website I used to
                  > > have up for an online publication I toyed with. A friend who leads a
                  > > Sangha said once that the Sangha must find the balance between
                  > > selflessness, forgiveness, etc., and when to give voice or make a
                  > > stand for right. Something like that. Too many yell about the train
                  > > but are not willing to stand in front of it. My inspiration for
                  > > public action used to be John Wayne. Now it is Mahatma Gandhi. Or,
                  > > of course, Jesus. It wasn't by going in with guns a'blazing but
                  > > rather appearing to "loose" that they overcame. Love will triumph but
                  > > only if we live it at all costs.
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Aideen McKenna <aideenmck@> wrote: Thanks for both
                  > > links, Ted.
                  > > > I love the way you talked about the functions of a belt. Until
                  > > quite recently, I was living in a "Bible Belt" & although I've found
                  > > out that a Canadian Bible Belt is a flabby elastic band compared to
                  > > those in your country, it seemed plenty tight & unpleasant enough. I
                  > > wrote frequent letters to the editors of the town's 2 papers. I don't
                  > > know whether they had any effect. Sometimes I think that letters like
                  > > yours & mine only serve to increase the paranoia, the siege mentality,
                  > > of the people who only want to further tighten the belt. So now &
                  > > then, I'd give up the effort, but then there'd be another flare-up of
                  > > hate disguised as Christianity & I'd find it too difficult to resist
                  > > another written call for love & tolerance. Like you, I have trouble
                  > > keeping my mouth shut. I'm not sure how much of that has to do with
                  > > my own ego – maybe quite a lot. On the other hand, surely one can't
                  > > just say nothing when the crazies are taking over the asylum…? I
                  > > dunno. Anyway, yours
                  > > > was a dandy letter.
                  > > > Aideen
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ------------ --------- --------- ---
                  > > >
                  > > > From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com
                  > > [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com] On Behalf Of Ted
                  > > > Sent: September 2, 2007 7:34 AM
                  > > > To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com
                  > > > Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Sharing, Caring, and The
                  > Buddha
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Greetings all!
                  > > >
                  > > > I have recently become acquainted with a teacher on the Facebook
                  > > > Sangha named Lin Zi Quan who has written some exemplary works.
                  One of
                  > > > them, entitled "Clearing the Misconceptions, " that provides some
                  > > > wonderful insight into Buddhism. This article is found here:
                  > > >
                  > > > http://www.freewebs .com/jingxinyuan mgc/dustingthemi rror.htm
                  > > >
                  > > > This person has a Taoist/Buddhist background and great insight.
                  Enjoy!
                  > > >
                  > > > Second item:
                  > > >
                  > > > A letter I wrote to our local newspaper, the Lufkin Daily News, was
                  > > > printed today. I wish to share this letter. I would also like to ask
                  > > > what you all think of the propriety of writing letters such as this
                  > > > might be and if any have written to your local paper.
                  > > >
                  > > > Find the letter here:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                  http://www.lufkinda ilynews.com/ opin/content/ news/opinion/ stories/2007/ 9/2/letter_ gresham.html
                  > > >
                  > > > Alternately, visit www.lufkindailynews .com , choose "Opinion"
                  and then
                  > > > the letter: LETTER: Cinching up the Bible belt
                  > > >
                  > > > The book of Philippians offers these words: "whatever is true,
                  > > > whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is
                  > > > lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or
                  > > > praiseworthy— think about such things." (NIV) Selah.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                  > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                  > > > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.1/982 - Release Date:
                  > > 8/31/07 5:21 PM
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                  > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                  > > > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/984 - Release Date:
                  > > 9/02/07 12:59 PM
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ------------ --------- --------- ---
                  > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------ --------- --------- ---
                  > > Building a website is a piece of cake.
                  > > Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------ --------- --------- ---
                  > Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
                  > Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
                  >



                  Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

                • Ted
                  ... realized as long as I work with my body I will always be subject to the will and intent of those above me(harder to practice the ZRight Livelyhood.) Also
                  Message 8 of 13 , Sep 3, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean tremblay
                    <bethjams9@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Well Ted I decided to go back to school and eventualy study law. I
                    realized as long as I work with my body I will always be subject to
                    the will and intent of those above me(harder to practice the ZRight
                    Livelyhood.) Also I'm not gettting younger so it's time to movr on
                    mentaly physicaly and spiritualy, I'll write more in depth later my
                    hand is still bandanged and I'm all over the key board

                    That's cool, Sean. I had actually enrolled in summer term but didn't
                    get to go. First, didn't have the dough to get there. My mom got
                    sick so our sitter option went south. Then I got some kind of muscle
                    spasm problem in my shoulder that completely put me out of action for
                    over a month. I'd like to get a Master's degree. Not sure if my
                    fifty year old brain could do it though. Law is a field. Thought
                    about that a couple decades ago. Took the pre-law exam, did well in
                    two fields and so lousy in the third I didn't figure I could pull it off.

                    Hope your hand gets better, dude.

                    Ted

                    >
                    > Ted <txhandyman57@...> wrote: --- In
                    meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean tremblay
                    > <bethjams9@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I don't think the minister was equating violence with action, you
                    > had given great examples of non violent action
                    > > I personally suffer from the guilt of non action at such a
                    > volitial time in history, the fact is I am caught up in the struggle
                    > for survival like everyone else. Ted you also gave agreat example of
                    > the politics of the middle east in the time of Jesus and how it
                    > parralels with whats happening now, the biggest difference is the
                    > amount of damage that can be done now compared to then. In one day we
                    > can kill what would have taken a year of constant warfare.
                    > > The damage we can do environmentally is hundreds of times greater
                    > than what we were able to do even during the industrial revolution, so
                    > purhaps I'm in the camp that feels that Right thought and Right speech
                    > are not enough
                    > > Then again I don't have a leg to stand on in this dept, between
                    > buisness and work and mortgages and kids and school I might have the
                    > energy to just go for a ride and drop it all for an hour or so.
                    > >
                    >
                    > I share your guilt, Sean. I sit out here in the woods extremely
                    > isolated, mostly broke, and unable so far to find even a low paying
                    > job in this area I can work at. But truthfully, we should not have
                    > guilt. We do what we can do. How can we do what we can not do?
                    >
                    > Notice I said Peace starts at home. Doesn't end there. We actually
                    > make a difference in all we do if we begin to focus our lives and
                    > attitudes in the right direction. In this country we always have the
                    > power to vote. Not sure if it's "fixed" or not but it's something.
                    > Then there's letters to the editor (written in the right spirit, of
                    > course), sharing, and just living. The key is not to meet force with
                    > force but force with a type of yielding that re-directs. This is the
                    > message of all those folks I mentioned.
                    >
                    > The fact is, Sean, there's very little we can do as individuals to
                    > "change things," either end the war or stop violence or protect the
                    > environment. If we're participating in destruction somehow we can
                    > stop what we're doing, of course. There is an element of the Eight
                    > Fold Path that is totally ignored most of the time. It's Right Work
                    > (Livelihood). This element says that we must choose a profession that
                    > does no harm. Thus choosing a career is important and how we work at
                    > our job is also important. Every little thing has a consequence.
                    >
                    > Our town has a little "defense" plant. They build PC circuits for
                    > cruise missiles. What's the harm in slipping a chip onto a PC Board?
                    > Nothing if it's for a radio. But those PC boards go into devices that
                    > kill, usually indiscriminately. I could never work there. I even
                    > chide my wife some because she works at an personnel services company
                    > that hires and conducts initial training for those people at the
                    > plant. Where does "do no harm" begin? We have to answer that for
                    > ourselves.
                    >
                    > But, some would ask, how can I not do my job? That might mean lower
                    > pay, transitions, moving, loosing stuff, on and on. Is it fair?
                    > Should I do that? Christians quibble, rationalize, but the fact is
                    > that Jesus said, "sell it all and follow me." Likewise, Gautama would
                    > say, "what is fair? There is The Path or not the path." Yes, I'm a
                    > radical sometimes. I have always been one, actually. It has cost me
                    > a couple of well paying jobs. And I've never had anybody commend me
                    > for my ethics. I've been blasted for "blowing a good job" by being a
                    > "fanatic" about honesty. Such is life. I didn't write the morals, I
                    > just follow them. .... I digress...
                    >
                    > Most of us don't face this Right Livelihood dilemma. If we're doing
                    > all we know to do, buying "green" and living "green" and not
                    > supporting violence and have Right Livelihood then the problems are
                    > beyond us. They are being created by others who have not discovered
                    > the Truth we have discovered. To correct the problems requires them
                    > to change. This is where the "meditation and prayer" beginning comes in.
                    >
                    > The way we deal with others depends upon how we've learned to deal
                    > with ourselves, our family, and our faith. In the beginning all we
                    > can do is live Metta, loving kindness, compassion, towards all, no
                    > matter how they are returned. From there, when the time and place and
                    > opportunity presents itself we share truth (peace, environmental
                    > protection, etc) with those who are willing to listen. We waste our
                    > time and make enemies when we blast others with stuff when we know
                    > they disagree and won't listen. That's the whole problem with
                    > in-your-face evangelism.
                    >
                    > It's a long-term process. We make the choice to live Metta and love.
                    > In time, others recognize and are open to hearing why. Even more
                    > time will pass before any results will be seen in others--if we ever
                    > see it at all. This process is how the vast majority of us should
                    > live. We do and there's nothing for us to be guilty about.
                    >
                    > There are ways to do more. Some do a lot. Some enter politics, some
                    > are scientists, writers, etc. Some become "Gandhis." They can do more
                    > and they bear a greater responsibility. Less than that we can give
                    > when we have it or volunteer if it's possible.
                    >
                    > We should not feel guilt for the world. We cannot fix the world. We
                    > should not feel guilt for others. We cannot change others. We should
                    > not feel guilt for self. If there's something we're doing that is not
                    > productive then we change it. If we get new information about
                    > something we were doing that was not good, we stop doing it. If we
                    > are guilty then we are guilty by choice for we are doing something
                    > deliberately that we feel we should not do. If we're choosing to do
                    > something the guilt is silly. Anyway, that's what I think. What you
                    > think?
                    >
                    > Selah! haha
                    >
                    > Pseudoyen Ted
                    >
                    > > Ted <txhandyman57@> wrote:
                    > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean
                    > tremblay
                    > > <bethjams9@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > I asked a methodist minister his take on pacifism and action, he
                    > > talked about the story of Jesus and the money changers in the temple,
                    > > the ministry said that some offences are so great they just need to
                    > > be stopped!
                    > > > Of course there are alot of things to take action on
                    > > > A two front war that is in the Bill$$$ and Thousands in los of life
                    > > > We have a planet on the verge of ecological disaster
                    > > > Pandemics
                    > > > the list goes on. and I have digressed from the point of this
                    > > group wich is meditation
                    > >
                    > > Maybe we have digressed a bit but only if this discussion does not
                    > > find its way into contemplation, into the seeking, into the knowing
                    > > we're working on.
                    > >
                    > > I used to be one of the most bellicose of Christians, "just war" and
                    > > all that. I am quite ashamed of those views I held. I am now an
                    > > exceptional pacifist. To that Methodist preacher I might once have
                    > > said, "right on" but now I would say, "sure, Jesus had authority,
                    > > understanding, and maybe the right to insist his own father's house
                    > > not be defiled." Then I might question the actual validity of those
                    > > "reports" in the gospels themselves.
                    > >
                    > > Even that "was then." The question I've had to ask is where does
                    > > peace begin? It does not begin with legislation, with protests, with
                    > > marches, with talking heads or radio pundits or letters to the editor.
                    > > Peace begins right here in my room, in my meditation, in my prayer.
                    > > It begins in me. It begins in my family.
                    > >
                    > > Twenty five hundred years ago a guy named Siddhartha Gautama gave up a
                    > > position as a prince with plenty of power to "fix" things and became a
                    > > wondering monk. He discovered the answer to human suffering was not
                    > > to raise a sword but to sit quietly counting breaths and releasing
                    > > everything that causes suffering.
                    > >
                    > > Five hundred years later and a world away in the midst of a broiling
                    > > middle-east, Jews vs. Samaritans and both vs. Romans, there was much
                    > > to war about, complain about, rail about. All the while Jesus
                    > > wandered across fields and sat on seashores Romans were crucifying
                    > > Jews. Jesus could have easily led an insurrection. He didn't. He
                    > > taught ultimate humility.
                    > >
                    > > A little over a half-century ago a scrawny little guy stood up to the
                    > > British Empire, walked barefoot across India and made salt by the sea.
                    > > A few decades later a little lady refused to get up in a bus. She,
                    > > like the salt-maker and the Jewish teacher and the ex-prince changed
                    > > history. It all came from the heart and it all began within those
                    > > individuals.
                    > >
                    > > The way of Peace has never changed. Peace isn't a state of politics,
                    > > it's a place of the heart. So actually this discussion has everything
                    > > with meditation! Cool, huh?
                    > >
                    > > Hey, all this deep thought while my family watches "Selina"! Biddy
                    > > Biddy Bambah!
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Ted <txhandyman57@> wrote:
                    > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean
                    > > tremblay
                    > > > <bethjams9@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Ego or not a wise man once said, all that it takes for evil to
                    > > > florish is for good men to do nothing.
                    > > >
                    > > > Sean, I used to have that quote on the header of a website I used to
                    > > > have up for an online publication I toyed with. A friend who leads a
                    > > > Sangha said once that the Sangha must find the balance between
                    > > > selflessness, forgiveness, etc., and when to give voice or make a
                    > > > stand for right. Something like that. Too many yell about the train
                    > > > but are not willing to stand in front of it. My inspiration for
                    > > > public action used to be John Wayne. Now it is Mahatma Gandhi. Or,
                    > > > of course, Jesus. It wasn't by going in with guns a'blazing but
                    > > > rather appearing to "loose" that they overcame. Love will
                    triumph but
                    > > > only if we live it at all costs.
                    > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Aideen McKenna <aideenmck@> wrote: Thanks for both
                    > > > links, Ted.
                    > > > > I love the way you talked about the functions of a belt. Until
                    > > > quite recently, I was living in a "Bible Belt" & although I've found
                    > > > out that a Canadian Bible Belt is a flabby elastic band compared to
                    > > > those in your country, it seemed plenty tight & unpleasant enough. I
                    > > > wrote frequent letters to the editors of the town's 2 papers. I
                    don't
                    > > > know whether they had any effect. Sometimes I think that letters
                    like
                    > > > yours & mine only serve to increase the paranoia, the siege
                    mentality,
                    > > > of the people who only want to further tighten the belt. So now &
                    > > > then, I'd give up the effort, but then there'd be another
                    flare-up of
                    > > > hate disguised as Christianity & I'd find it too difficult to resist
                    > > > another written call for love & tolerance. Like you, I have trouble
                    > > > keeping my mouth shut. I'm not sure how much of that has to do with
                    > > > my own ego – maybe quite a lot. On the other hand, surely one can't
                    > > > just say nothing when the crazies are taking over the asylum…? I
                    > > > dunno. Anyway, yours
                    > > > > was a dandy letter.
                    > > > > Aideen
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ---------------------------------
                    > > > >
                    > > > > From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > [mailto:meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ted
                    > > > > Sent: September 2, 2007 7:34 AM
                    > > > > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Sharing, Caring, and The
                    > > Buddha
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Greetings all!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I have recently become acquainted with a teacher on the Facebook
                    > > > > Sangha named Lin Zi Quan who has written some exemplary works.
                    > One of
                    > > > > them, entitled "Clearing the Misconceptions," that provides some
                    > > > > wonderful insight into Buddhism. This article is found here:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > http://www.freewebs.com/jingxinyuanmgc/dustingthemirror.htm
                    > > > >
                    > > > > This person has a Taoist/Buddhist background and great insight.
                    > Enjoy!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Second item:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > A letter I wrote to our local newspaper, the Lufkin Daily
                    News, was
                    > > > > printed today. I wish to share this letter. I would also like
                    to ask
                    > > > > what you all think of the propriety of writing letters such as
                    this
                    > > > > might be and if any have written to your local paper.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Find the letter here:
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                    http://www.lufkindailynews.com/opin/content/news/opinion/stories/2007/9/2/letter_gresham.html
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Alternately, visit www.lufkindailynews.com , choose "Opinion"
                    > and then
                    > > > > the letter: LETTER: Cinching up the Bible belt
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The book of Philippians offers these words: "whatever is true,
                    > > > > whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure,
                    whatever is
                    > > > > lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or
                    > > > > praiseworthy—think about such things." (NIV) Selah.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                    > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                    > > > > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.1/982 - Release Date:
                    > > > 8/31/07 5:21 PM
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                    > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                    > > > > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/984 - Release Date:
                    > > > 9/02/07 12:59 PM
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
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