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Re: [Meditation Society of America] Seeking, Finding, Floundering, Flowering

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  • C. Joubert
    Aideen, I got a laugh out of that. Yep, can t go back and family has a way of being the most relentless objectors to allowing your own path. Interestingly, a
    Message 1 of 65 , Aug 29, 2007
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      Aideen,
      I got a laugh out of that.
      Yep, can't go back and family has a way of being the most relentless objectors to allowing your own path. Interestingly, a decade ago there were 58 different types of Baptists. Most of them do not even agree on the premise of salvation being permanent, much less on the more complex ideas concerning predestination and God's will. But all of them strongly believe all other belief sets outside of Christ-based ones are demonic. I at least have the benefit that my family believes salvation is permanent. So while they think I have strayed far away, they won't fret about me going to hell, because I was 'saved' long ago. But that doesn't stop them asking me to come to church and bringing up hot topics when given half a chance. My mom is particular notorious for this. She won't confront me directly, but she loves just making loud statements. I just smile and say "yep".
       
      Candy
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 10:15 AM
      Subject: RE: [Meditation Society of America] Seeking, Finding, Floundering, Flowering

      Sean’s wife’s karma ran over the Baptist lady’s dogma.

      (Sorry – I’ll try not to do that again).

       

      Yes.   I went into group therapy (long overdue) with a psychiatrist, & as soon as I began to pay real attention to what I thought & felt, away flew a rigid set of beliefs that had defined me (I’d thought they did).  So I, the apostate, fell from grace with my family.  But you can’t go back.

      Aideen

       


      From:meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com [mailto: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Ted
      Sent: August 30, 2007 5:59 AM
      To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Meditation Society ofAmerica ] Seeking, Finding, Floundering, Flowering

       

      Great story, Sean. Jesus said "when you look, you'll find." Modern
      interpretation. Your wife's client was able to look past the dogma.
      (The word "dogma" always reminded me of something dogs leave in the
      yard. It's apropos.) One thing about honest meditation and that is
      looking inside is unavoidable. When one looks inside one is forced to
      see doubts and questions. This forces a re-examination of many points
      of view. At least, that's the way I sort'a see it. What yall think?

      MMT (Motor Mouth Ted haha)

      --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com, sean tremblay
      <bethjams9@. ..> wrote:
      >
      > Candy And Ted both touched on something I am witnessing at my wife
      work (please excuse the typo's I have a bandaged finger wahhh)
      > My wife has a studio where she teaches Ashtanga and Pilates. One
      of her clients is the daughter of a Baptist minister, and she has a
      strong ingrained faith though not the screaming evenglism as seen on
      TV. Hers is typical of Virginia and the old south traditions, a little
      slow and wery of new ideas and religions, she had been enjoying the
      Ashtanga in perticulare the meditations. Long story short this has
      lead to a sort of awakening for her a new calling to ministry and with
      the encoragement from her husband and the support of her church she
      has started a womens group centered around meditation and a gut level
      non dogmatic interpretation of biblical scripture
      > The whole thing is pretty cool to watch happen
      > and it started with one womans experiences after an hour of asanas
      and ten to fifteen minutes of meditation
      >
      > sean tremblay <bethjams9@. ..> wrote:
      > I would assume this shared experience of you and Candy is
      a very strengthening thing
      >
      > Ted <txhandyman57@ ...> wrote: Hi, Candy.
      >
      > There's probably no other event that makes us consider, or reconsider,
      > our faith than death. The bonds that tied me to Evangelical
      > Christianity twanged one after the other through the nineties like
      > too-tight guitar strings. Then my dad died and they all went. I
      > didn't give up belief in God but I put distance between myself and
      > things Christian.
      >
      > Time after time during my several decades in Evangelical circles my
      > zeal was condemned and suppressed rather than supported. In ministry
      > after ministry, try after try, I hit stone walls where there should
      > have been loving hearts. I just kept coming back for more.
      >
      > That last crash I mentioned was the result of trusting "good Christian
      > people" when I really knew better. Maybe my cynicism and lack of
      > sincerity were too obvious. I played the "religion" card to try and
      > build a foster care non-profit a couple years ago mostly because
      > that's the only game in this town. Without the support of the
      > religious community or that of the Good Ol' Boy club nothing happens
      > here. I was a part of neither. I had been a part of the church club
      > but I suppose my chips were not good any more.
      >
      > The Board of our non-profit terminated the services of a person who
      > was supposed to do our fundraising. She was a volunteer--nobody was
      > getting paid and we were putting all our money into the effort. The
      > terminated volunteer turned on me and the corp, claimed wages not due,
      > threatened law suits, even wrote letters to the paper with slanderous
      > lies. Fortunately the paper didn't print them. I knew about them
      > because she sent them to some other people who forwarded them to me.
      > Anyway, the good Christian board members flew the coop, including some
      > good Christian family members, and all the work and money and time
      > spent on the effort died. My wife and I lost several thousand bucks
      > but the worst of it is that kids were not ever helped by the project.
      > Because the project was my dream I crashed and burned, too.
      >
      > In my turn-around, what I call my epiphany, I threw everything about
      > faith out too, then approached from an entirely different angle. I'm
      > still working things out as far as faith goes. That last post
      > summarized what my basic conclusions are.
      >
      > I do believe Jesus was who he said he was but not who the Church says
      > he is. I believe there was a purpose to all he did, including his
      > death, but I think it has something to do with things in the spiritual
      > realm that we could never understand if we knew the particulars. I do
      > not believe in the Christian version of Salvation, in that one must
      > know Jesus. Neither do I believe Jesus intended for us to worship him
      > directly but that he came to provide a compass heading towards God our
      > Creator. I believe Gautama also gave us a compass heading towards God.
      >
      > "God" is, to me, the Creator, a universal consciousness who may have a
      > body or may be a spirit who lives within spiritual beings or may be
      > the universe itself of which we are a part. Most likely he's all and
      > none, something far different than we can comprehend.
      >
      > I have been growing a friendship with a man who leads a Pure Land
      > Buddhist Sangha who has been a great help to me. Pure Land Buddhism
      > is, as he says, "Buddhism without the Christian-like elements taken
      > out." He's help me recognize the universality of the Great Spirit,
      > God, or Amida (The Buddha of my friend's Pure Land Sangha). The most
      > excellent thing is that I can freely worship God and accept the truth
      > of Jesus (from a gentile perspective, not as a Jewish wannabe like
      > Christianity of theU.S. ) and be a part of Buddhism too. Faith,
      > truth, understanding, these are not arbitrary or relative, we can't
      > "Pick and choose," but they are universal in nature. Faith and Truth
      > speaks to the heart and each heart responds--or not--in a unique
      fashion.
      >
      > I, too, am a novice at meditation. In the beginning I tried to follow
      > Christian Meditation, a la John Main, which was useful but not what I
      > was seeking. I moved to Vipassana meditation and there I find the
      > most direction. This is meditation from the Theravada tradition.
      > Pure Land comes from Mahayana tradition, but in Buddhism there's no
      > animosity or ill will between traditions like there is among assorted
      > denominations and between Roman Catholicism and protestantism.
      > Temples are often shared, teachers move back and forth, teachings
      > shared. A Catholic would not fit in well in a Baptist church.
      > Neither would a Buddhist. But I find acceptance (so far only
      > virtually since there's no sangha around here) in fellowship with my
      > Pure Land friend and others in other traditions even as I remain a
      > Gentile follower of Jesus.
      >
      > Hmm... got off track. Meditation. The most important element in
      > meditation to me is the effort to reach mindfulness. The key to
      > living a quality life, I believe, is in our ability to be mindful, to
      > live in the present. We learn to cut loose of so much baggage when we
      > do that. This includes guilt, worry, fretting over the past and fear
      > of death or the future.
      >
      > Thanks for sharing your story, Candy. It would seem there are many
      > who are in a similar situation as you and I. I was rather saddened by
      > the confusion, loss of faith, and sometimes bitterness and fierce
      > anger in blogs and essays across the web when I researched for my
      > book. Christianity is dissolving. Only the "McDonnald's"
      > Mega-Churches are thriving because they've given up on any moral or
      > ethical stand and are becoming joy joints and social clubs. Most
      > main-line churches are drying up. There's several church buildings
      > for sale in this little town, the churches just fell apart.
      >
      > My Pure Land friend believes we are on the verge of a more universal
      > spirituality based on Truth and a clear understanding of the universal
      > nature of faith. I hope he is right. I also hope the horrific
      > problems in our society doesn't kill us all before we get there.
      >
      > So, I ramble again. 'Tis my nature. Blessings to you, Candy, and to
      > all. This is the end of the first day of my 50th year on earth. I
      > shall retire to my chamber and mourn my lost youth. lol
      >
      > --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com, "C. Joubert"
      > <redbrew@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Ted,
      > > Beautiful post, thank you for taking the time.
      > >
      > > I share your background in evangelical christianity. I left
      > organized religion because of being burned out (20 years of devout
      > service) and shortly after released myself from all belief that rested
      > in a need for salvation and a spiritual separation between myself and
      > "God". At first, I remained interested in biblical scriptures but read
      > them from a completely different perspective. But the background was
      > so ingrained in me, that I needed to walk away from all things
      > biblical to clear my mind and give myself a chance to breath
      > unfiltered spiritual air.
      > >
      > > I have looked into several other religions, such as Wicca, Buddhism,
      > and most recently the LOA (law of attraction). In all of them I find
      > things that feel good, resonate, and seem worthy of consideration. But
      > in all of them I also bump up against a wall. Usually it is something
      > arbitrary that seems to me completely out of place and unnecessary,
      > like bad packaging on an otherwise decent product. But it planted the
      > seeds of doubt and probably a bit of mistrust. [yeah, I know its the
      > whole baby and bathwater thing].
      > >
      > > At my core, essentially, I reached a point where I believed I had
      > everything I need...that I was born into or with a perfection of
      > spirit that while unrealized (tongue in cheek for Jeff there ;-), is
      > nevertheless there, growing, and pulsing in everything I do. I felt no
      > need to 'search for a path'. In fact, I was content to let truths
      > present themselves to me in whatever way they would. My focus was on
      > enjoying life and my physical experience, which included a lot of
      > outdoor/nature related activities.
      > >
      > > Two things sort of catapulted me into searching again. The first was
      > my mentioned need to present something for my daughter.
      > > But along with that has been the unsettling results of physical
      > changes in my body after childbirth. I used to be an extremely
      > articulate, organized, and verbally expressive person. I have won
      > awards, promotions, refunds, pay raises, positions, responsibilities,
      > etc., directly resulting from my ability to articulate myself verbally
      > and in written form. Since my daughter's birth, however, I have
      > experienced foggy thinking, forgetfulness, and funny quirks in my
      > basic personality. I still have to double read my emails 3-4 times to
      > catch all my mistakes, where I think one word and type a similar but
      > completely different one. I have lost count the number of times I have
      > lost keys, locked myself out of the house, or other such
      > mental/physical small trainwrecks. Extremely frustrating for me. It
      > was sort of like having the one person I could really depend on (ME!)
      > become undependable. I started feeling vulnerabilities and weaknesses
      > inch upon me...and there is where my fears of how I parent and what I
      > pass on to my daughter spiritually began to pop up.
      > >
      > > The second, and most recent event, was the death of a soldier
      > serving with my husband in Iraq . I attended the memorial and the
      > experience was both the most beautiful and most horrible thing I have
      > ever experienced. I have experienced death of loved ones before, but
      > this was like experiencing the death of my spouse, as the man who died
      > and my husband were very close, did the same job, ate meals together,
      > used the same equipment, traveled the same roads, every day. That it
      > was him (and others) who died that day was a bit of a coin toss.
      > Everything in the memorial, except the man's name, was nearly exactly
      > as it would have been if my husband were the one gone. Long short, I
      > found myself extremely disturbed by this passing. I would stand at the
      > man's grave on a weekly basis and grieve and wonder how his mother
      > could prevent herself from tearing at the dirt to retrieve her son.
      > >
      > > So there, in that place, I began to wrestle again with the eternal
      > and my place in it. I found some measure of peace by simply choosing
      > to believe. To believe that he wasn't gone. To believe that while I
      > can't define what IT is out there, I can believe it is peaceful,
      > joyful, and never-ending - for him...and therefore for me.
      > >
      > > When I use meditation (I am a complete beginner) I love the calmness
      > of mind and restfulness it brings. When I read the post a few days ago
      > about meeting the true me, the essence that I am, along with Jeff's
      > description of Realization, it brought tears of hope - while I had not
      > even realized I was missing hope.
      > >
      > > So there is a small piece of my experience. Thank you for sharing
      > your truths. I really enjoyed reading your post.
      > > One thing I find great pleasure in is the way my daughter responds
      > to me sitting quietly. While I follow Chopra's advise to not limit the
      > natural energy and enthusiasm of children under the age of 5 by
      > expecting them to follow a meditation routine, I love that she
      > naturally wants to sit next to me and share my connection to all
      that is.
      > >
      > > While I still feel struggles and strains of the physical, there is
      > an undercurrent of trust, faith, knowledge, love, and belief that
      > there is no wrong path or choice. I am free, whole, and perfect. I
      > believe.
      > >
      > > Candy
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: Ted
      > > To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com
      > > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 9:18 AM
      > > Subject: [Meditation Society of America ] Seeking, Finding,
      > Floundering, Flowering
      > >
      > >
      > > OK, the heading is a bit lame but what can I say? ...this is a really
      > > long thought... just a warning. lol I think I'll post it on my blog,
      > > too. So anyway....
      > >
      > > Candy, thanks for the comments on keeping kids. It's a shame how so
      > > few realize it's the kids that do the saving. Many more kids would
      > > find homes if people understood that.
      > >
      > > Your words, Candy, struck a chord with me. A couple of years ago I
      > > fell apart. The uglies of life jumped right up and bit me in two. Up
      > > until that point I'd held on to a faith in God though I'd abandoned
      > > the doctrinal goofiness of my former years long ago. But then the
      > > whole world came crashing down. My catch-phrase became, "Life sucks
      > > and then you die."
      > >
      > > But then there were the kids. Month after month I sank lower. The
      > > only thing on this earth that kept me breathing was the love of my
      > > kids. Our bonds go very deep. Unfortunately my pessimism was rubbing
      > > off on them. They picked up the phrase "Life sucks and then yo die"
      > > too. It sounds bad coming from a five-year-old. Eventually I reached
      > > a point of total confusion. Then I became fearful of death and at the
      > > same time developed a paranoid feeling that I was about to die.
      > > Psychologists probably have all kinds of "syndromes" to describe me.
      > > All I knew was that I was screwed up. That "white light" you spoke
      > > about had gone out for me.
      > >
      > > One year ago I hit 49. I realized I was far past my mid-life and I
      > > had no clue. Worse, I had kids who clung to my every word and my
      > > every word was nothing but pessimism. I absolutely had to find Truth
      > > so I could leave them something, something to hang on to, when I was
      > > gone. And I was sure I would be gone. I quit all my other projects,
      > > abandoned housework, and leaped into an examination of life, truth,
      > > God, and all that. I wanted not to fear death but more than that I
      > > wanted to know my kids had Truth.
      > >
      > > You said you "...feel some level of responsibility to present a
      > > coherent thought process on what mommy believes." That nails how I
      > > felt. What I came up with, what I discovered, completely
      > > revolutionized my life, my thought processes, my attitudes, and is
      > > slowly revolutionizing my family as well. In the words of Sidharta
      > > Gautuama, and Jesus, and elsewhere, I finally found Truth and
      > > understanding. It's simple, direct, and entirely applicable to
      > > everyone, no matter where they are in belief or faith. I sound like a
      > > Guru, don't I? lol
      > >
      > > Here, briefly, are the points I have discovered (at least as brief as
      > > one with Energizer Bunny Syndrome can be):
      > >
      > > 1. There are truths available for the knowing and then there is Truth
      > > that we cannot in our finite state ever comprehend. Jeff wrote: "We
      > > 'find' ourselves in this human form - not knowing how or why or for
      > > what purpose, if any. The rational, linear way of thinking does not
      > > allow for, and cannot grasp infinity, first cause, no beginning, no
      > > end, eternity.... " Absolutely.
      > >
      > > 2. Unable to discover Truth ful

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    • kumara_maniin
      to state briefly man in india we call manushan.manas meaning mind.meditation aims at stilling the mind.by chanting one mantra and slowly driving out all other
      Message 65 of 65 , Oct 10, 2007
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        to state briefly man in india we call manushan.manas meaning
        mind.meditation aims at stilling the mind.by chanting one mantra and
        slowly driving out all other thoughts and finally the mantra also
        the mind becomes blank.having started TM thirty years back with a
        mantra,initially i felt euphoric and felt thats it.but slowly there
        was a feeling of dissatisfaction.i now feel mind is like any other
        organ like hand or feet or eyes or ears.since this mind is involved
        in almost all the sensory perceptions in recalling recollecting or
        in some way it has slowly become a master and has gone crazy acting
        without stop and trying to lead the person than just being an
        instrument.yes while we are able to use it constructively to
        analyse.judge conclude and plan we are helpless to switch it off
        when not required.the children do not think much.a butterfly chase
        can make them more happy than a great property.i think we have lost
        the ability to switch off the mind.now the gr88 question is
        fine...but how to switch off?in my opinion it is not that difficult
        either.from ecckhart tolles power of now,i realised always being
        focussed on anything that we are engaged at the moment...at this
        very moment..and bringing the mind constantly back to whatever we
        are doing now..( not asking for much isnt it?)..not thinking about
        the consequences or results or fretting about why we have not done
        this yesterday or any other thought interfering...just be
        here...now..100% is one thing.
        secondly when we are not doing anything ..just observing what our
        thoughts.mind is unable to think when looked at.
        the gap in thoughts could be only couple of seconds but it is a
        start..and i think ..as i read here earlier not seeking just
        watching.. watchingintently to catch a thought...
        mani

        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean tremblay
        <bethjams9@...> wrote:
        >
        > Jeff ,
        > I have had many teachers in some most unlikely places. Most did
        not see themselves as such. The way of many teachers is the way of
        being open to all around you, and aware of the inate knowlege
        possed by many from all walks of life, there are truly wise sages
        amoungst us. What ever blockage I am currently feeling I have to
        work it out on my own. My reluctance to submit my will to anouther
        comes from the fact that I have met many charlotains as well as
        sages, A point in case I am a pretty smart dude and I could concoct
        some line of bull shit and even make myself believe it! even derive
        a sense of deep satifaction from it, then the next step I could
        affect a manner of speach in the style of David Carridine and walk
        around calmly despencing my knowlege. At this point I could even
        develope a fallowing, but I would not do that nor have it done to me!
        > But the great sages are out thier and I just have ro Tune My
        Dial Back In
        > P/S I likke the qoutes from J.C. truly a great master I always
        dug his work
        >
        > Jeff Belyea <jeff@...> wrote:
        > Sean,
        >
        > There is so much information
        > and insight into your perspective
        > in the short paragraph you wrote,
        > that it will be impossible to be
        > brief in reply...but I'll try.
        >
        > One other thing: I'll also try
        > not to sound "preachy". There
        > was a teacher who used anologies
        > in his really beautiful teachings,
        > and I draw upon them often -
        > because they are so on point.
        >
        > Unfortunately, the church has
        > created such a trainwreck of
        > what this particular master
        > taught that many people have
        > "thrown the baby out with the
        > bathwater". (You and I have each
        > used this expression).
        >
        > He is reported to have said that,
        > "Only as child do you enter the
        > Kingdom of Heaven". And as you
        > have written, it is the lightness
        > of being that a child knows that
        > we miss as life coerces us into
        > worry and stress and obligation.
        >
        > The good news is that there is
        > a Truth that sets you free...and
        > returns you to the garden - that
        > lightness of being, as a nearly
        > constant state of Being. Life
        > will still through an occasionally
        > curve ball, a shot of adrenalin,
        > and a temporary rush of negativity -
        > but once the Truth is discovered,
        > these are only momentary flashes
        > with no residual. Kind of the
        > reverse of what you mention as
        > glimpses into the lightness, in
        > a life that lacks the lightness
        > of Being - it is a lightness of
        > Being with glimpses into the
        > negativity the world bombards
        > us with daily.
        >
        > It is possible to rise above the
        > circumstances and enjoy a fullness
        > of joy as a way of life.
        >
        > Some people seem to never experience
        > the angst of uneasiness and longing
        > for the light, but those who do find
        > that is just doesn't go away. And so,
        > we find ourselves "seeking". We try
        > meditation and yoga, and attempt to
        > pump ourselves up with resolve to
        > be grateful and appreciative of
        > the beauty that surrounds us every
        > day in nature, music, relationships,
        > and even commerce. But to resolve
        > never seems to last - until...
        >
        > "When the student is ready, the
        > teacher appears." The "teacher" can
        > take many forms, and that light
        > can come on when least expected.
        > It seems to ALWAYS come as a rush
        > of sudden wisdom.
        >
        > We seem more removed as time passes,
        > and your keen polymorphic (a 25
        > center word that I don't have a
        > chance to use often) insight into the
        > parallels of actually seeing the edges
        > of objects more distinctly is a
        > powerful reflection of that sense
        > of separation and longing for
        > lightness.
        >
        > For me, it became a desparate
        > search, until I was willing to
        > lose my life to/or find it. That
        > doesn't have to be the case, but
        > there seems to come a point where
        > the longing becomes all consuming
        > for some.
        >
        > (The following is necessarily
        > subjective and offered as opinion.
        > We can only teach from our own
        > experiences, and there may others
        > here who will offer other approaches...
        >
        > If you find yourself approaching that
        > consuming level of inquiry...pitch your camp
        > at one sight. Find a teacher. Accept
        > the teaching of someone who has
        > made the journey, and who is willing
        > to be your guide.
        >
        > Your heart will resonate from the
        > sound of their voice, the content
        > of their teaching, or even a book
        > they have written - even their
        > photograph. If your teacher happens
        > to be in nature, it may be to
        > magic of sunrises or sunsets that
        > will speak to you. You get the idea.
        >
        > Meditation seems to be a pretty
        > common gateway to the garden to
        > which you wish to return. Patience
        > is virtue when it comes to this.
        > (I know that's not your strongest
        > virtue, and it may require some
        > time in the patience gym).
        >
        > More later.
        >
        > Love, as always,
        >
        > Jeff
        >
        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean tremblay
        > <bethjams9@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Jeff,
        > > I've had a revelationion this morning, something I have been
        > trying to articulate. In life I guess I've gleened some insights
        > about people and things. I've been to the bottom of the ocean and
        > around the world, I've played cards with prostitutes, drank cheap
        > wine with bums, flown with CEO's in private jets and dined with
        > millionairs. All these things have taught me something, but thier
        is
        > also something I've lost, something I've wittnessed with my kids.
        > It's a lightness of being, I remember it well, that garden of eden
        > but I can't seem to get back to it, I catch glimpses of it. With
        > every pain felt or experienced or witnessed it seems I have grown
        > harder and denser like the callouses of my hands. The worlds edges
        > that define the boundry of objects in view seem sharper. And the
        > yoga and meditaion under the wise tutorage of my wife just don't
        seem
        > to be enough, I supose I need to spend more time with my kids and
        > rediscover the joy of finding butterfly eggs or a tree
        > > frog or simply hanging out and realy enjoying chocolate milk.
        > >
        > > Jeff Belyea <jeff@> wrote:
        > > Hey Sean, I love your humor
        > > and your colorful play of words.
        > >
        > > Email and online discussions
        > > do tend to flatten the tone,
        > > and often tongue-in-check
        > > humor can sound sarcastic,
        > > and beside the point. But...
        > >
        > > You seem to be one of those
        > > writers who layers their prose
        > > with several meanings. Some
        > > are good at reading this, and
        > > some miss all but the superficial
        > > layer. Not to worry. It's all
        > > perfect.
        > >
        > > Love, as always,
        > >
        > > Jeff
        > >
        > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean tremblay
        > > <bethjams9@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I guess thats what I was trying to say.....thanks Jeff. I
        suppose
        > I
        > > have a courser manner of putting it and a bit crass as well, but
        > > thats my humor of couse nobody can hear the inflections of tone
        in
        > my
        > > voice. There are those out there who seek to lead others and
        there
        > > are those out there who seek to be lead.. hence drugged monkeys
        and
        > > organ grinders.
        > > > I do supose it's not my role to correct this it's as as
        humanity
        > > itself, and the Buddha cautioned against taking anybodies word a
        > face
        > > value even his. I of course don't have the patience of the Buddha
        > > > But I am glad we got the ball rolling again and thier are some
        > > real discusions taking place
        > > > Thanks guy's
        > > >
        > > > Jeff Belyea <jeff@> wrote:
        > > > I hope to add clarity here
        > > > and not confusion...
        > > >
        > > > While it is ultimately true
        > > > that there is no seeking and
        > > > nothing to be sought...it is
        > > > a matter of timing.
        > > >
        > > > When we are stirred by the
        > > > sense of unhappiness or "something
        > > > missing" in our lives, we do
        > > > initially seek an ineffable
        > > > "something" to satisfy the longing
        > > > for contentment and happiness.
        > > >
        > > > Often, that occurs to us as
        > > > a new job, new car, bigger house,
        > > > bigger muscles, success on our
        > > > terms, new relationships, and so on.
        > > >
        > > > But when we achieve any or all
        > > > of these "things", we find that
        > > > the longing remains and we hear
        > > > the old refrain, "Is this all there
        > > > is?"...and we're back on the search,
        > > > again.
        > > >
        > > > However, as tough as it may be
        > > > to swallow, the paradox is that
        > > > we must give up the search (the
        > > > seduction as Sean described it)
        > > > and come to a place of absolute
        > > > surrender of the search, the
        > > > desires, the longing. We must
        > > > give it all up and just stop.
        > > >
        > > > It is here, at the stop sign,
        > > > that the magic may happen. We
        > > > have "seeded" our magic garden
        > > > earlier with the search. To stay
        > > > with this metaphor, we must now
        > > > wait silently while the growth
        > > > begins without our conscious
        > > > knowledge. Any attempt to peek
        > > > too soon destroys the potential
        > > > fruit (or veggie) of Awakening.
        > > >
        > > > This timing aspect causes a lot
        > > > of confusion and discouragement -
        > > > especially when those who are
        > > > not authentic in their "teaching"
        > > > speak and write about not seeking.
        > > >
        > > > The curriculum runs: Seeking, Not
        > > > Seeking, SURPRISE! The surprise
        > > > is beyond anything we could think
        > > > or imagine, beyond description,
        > > > a joy unspeakable, a peace beyond
        > > > understanding. Of course, we cannot
        > > > seek it in advance, because IT
        > > > does not yield to concept or idea.
        > > >
        > > > This is not the same as saying
        > > > that IT does not exist or IT is
        > > > some mental fabrication and opium
        > > > of the masses (or spritually
        > > > drugged monkies on minimum wage
        > > > for an organ grinder).
        > > >
        > > > Too long already. Hope there's
        > > > something here of clarity.
        > > >
        > > > Jeff
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Sandeep
        > > > <sandeep1960@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > sean tremblay wrote:
        > > > > > Sandeep,
        > > > > > Anouther great reply
        > > > > > I think what I am getting at is there is a seduction in
        > Finding
        > > > this
        > > > > > THING and having possesion of it.
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > *The very sense of "something-to-be-sought" call it THING or
        > > Self,
        > > > or
        > > > > Enlightenment or happiness
        > > > > constructs the sense of "you-the-seeker-of-the-defined-
        sought".
        > > > >
        > > > > The perpetuating of the sense of "something-to-be-sought"
        > > > perpetuates
        > > > > the sense of "you-the-seeker-of-the-defined-sought".
        > > > >
        > > > > The term being used is sense of..........as no such
        > construction
        > > > > actually takes place.
        > > > > *
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > > I like to use the terms of dependent and independent
        > realities,
        > > > that
        > > > > > kinda jives with me
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > > The dependent reality as you know is the cause and efect
        > > response
        > > > that
        > > > > > causes suffering, and alienation, raises questions and
        fills
        > in
        > > > the
        > > > > > blanks.... I'ts the filling in the blanks part that may
        lead
        > a
        > > > person
        > > > > > to manufacture an answer that may or may not lead to
        > fullfilment
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > *Is there anything as independent reality?
        > > > >
        > > > > Is there anything really independent .......aka.......that
        > which
        > > > is not
        > > > > dependent on........... which it is supposed to be
        independent
        > of?
        > > > > *
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > *//*__,_._,__
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
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