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Re: [Meditation Society of America] The power of knowledge gives you an extra ed

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  • C. Joubert
    Jeff, Thank you. Everything you say makes perfect sense and is like the soothing sound of running water to my brain. What is funny about that to me, is that I
    Message 1 of 65 , Aug 29 9:46 AM
      Thank you. Everything you say makes perfect sense and is like the soothing sound of running water to my brain. What is funny about that to me, is that I sincerely do not feel a need to be soothed. This forum, this discussion, and this soothing are unexpected and wonderful. I'm sort of speechless due to the amount of things I'd like to say.
      I'm smiling. I hope that conveys it for now.
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 7:10 AM
      Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] The power of knowledge gives you an extra ed

      Hi Candy -

      Thanks for the postscript
      note. You are right about
      the speculative questions
      of how and why. We "find"
      ourselves in this human
      form - not knowing how or
      why or for what purpose,
      if any. The rational, linear
      way of thinking does not
      allow for, and cannot grasp
      infinity, first cause, no
      beginning, no end, eternity...

      The answers to these questions
      (if we persist in pursuing
      them...for whatever reason)
      come in a way that we do
      not expect. It is more that
      they dissolve as meaningless
      in the "big" picture, and are
      replaced with...a startling
      wisdom that is found in the
      matrix of...Love. It comes
      and gets us.

      Realization gives us knowledge
      of the big picture and a view
      of timelessness (eternity) and
      infinity, but not in the way
      the thinking mind's way of
      "knowing" gives us understanding
      of a process...like tying our
      shoes. That's a mystery that
      yields to process. Loop-de-
      loop and one day suddenly,
      you proudly know how to tie
      your shoes.

      The mystery of the "mystic
      path" reveals itself when all
      attempts at process and even
      thinking itself is suspended.
      (That's a very short way of
      speaking to it - there are
      many preludes that take many
      years for most "aspirants".)

      If you are content, then the
      questions of the how's and why's
      of existence may be a curiosity,
      but are not necessarily born
      of a nagging, persistent, intuitive
      stirring that "something" is
      lost or missing.

      For those who feel the stirring
      powerful, there are "teachers"
      who empathize and offer guidance.
      But even here, there is only a
      pointing. No one can experience
      anything for another person.
      If you know something, rather
      than know about it (from reading
      and such), you know from direct
      personal experience.

      If you have tasted an orange,
      and someone attempts to teach
      you about the taste - and begins
      by comparing it to the taste
      of a potato chip, you can be
      quite sure that they are a
      "false prophet". And there are
      many warnings in spiritual
      traditions about false teachers.
      (See Sean's concern in one
      of his last few posts).

      Can you be duped? Oh, yeah! Many
      have been and many bear the scars
      of disappointment. So it is a
      legitimate concern.

      So how to we progress?

      If you seek out a teacher, or
      a teacher "appears", whose words
      resonate in your heart as exciting
      and sincere, they may be a valuable
      guide through a portion of your
      life - up to an including Realization.
      Listen to your heart.

      It is not a matter of submitting
      or surrendering your will to someone
      else. It is a matter of resonance
      with the Truth, and a submitting
      and absolute surrender of ego -
      any and all concepts (including
      any of the earlier teaching)and
      fearlessly jumping "into the void"
      of not knowing.

      This is a very tough proposition
      for the prideful, muscle-bound ego that
      cannot stand the thought of there
      being something "beyond" there
      personal knowing. This is the
      final hurdle. Not for everyone.
      Not for many.

      Many people curiously toy with
      the idea of Realization, but few,
      a very rare few (not special, just
      few in number) actually step onto
      the path with fearless commitment
      to Know for themselves.

      Often, it is despair that leads
      to fearless surrender in the hope
      of release from the despair. When
      despair reaches the depths, some
      will risk even death to find
      release. This is why the "dark
      night of the sout" and "death
      of ego" and "being reborn" are
      seen frequently in spiritual
      and philosophical texts.

      OK, enough rambling for now.


      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "C. Joubert"
      <redbrew@...> wrote:
      > All,
      > I hope you do not mind me jumping in here? I have searched, for a
      long time, to settle questions I have. The problem I experience in
      every avenue, however, was the standard presentation of theme:
      overcoming some human condition in order to reach the white light.
      Usually what has turned me off is the use of arbitrary numbers of
      repeating a certain cycle, ritual, prayer, number of lives, or
      process along these paths. At one time, I was one of those people who
      would accept an answer from anywhere I could get it and actively
      spent time seeking out the unrevealed secret I thought I was missing.
      > Then I stopped. I stopped when I experienced enough resistance to
      any other's beliefs that I became somewhat antagonistic. That of
      course doesn't bode well for friendships, ha ha.  Anyway, I have
      found some things that feel right and that fit for me. But having a
      child, I now feel some level of responsibility to present a coherent
      thought process on what mommy believes. Clearly no one here can
      answer that, yet here is where I have put myself. I believe
      meditation is a valuable process, and one in which I have had
      positive experience with in the past. I am here to learn and to share
      what I may. Today it occurred to me that my job as mother is not so
      much to impart something to my daughter, but perhaps as simple as not
      preventing her acquiring it on her own...something she'll have no
      problem doing.
      > I've wanted to respond to several posts and have not done so
      because of my slight inclination toward antagonism. As an example,
      when Jeff described the process of Realization and the joy he
      experienced, I found it very enticing. But I also immediately found
      myself asking something like "what facility or benefit exists in
      human form which draws the existing unencumbered joyous consciousness
      into it in the first place? Weren't we already Realized and if so why
      would we inhabit human form only to struggle toward Realization while
      in that human form? I do understand, I think, that having experienced
      Realization ["truth that sets you free" from these questions of why
      and how] making such speculations becomes rather pointless or at
      least insignificant. But that is where I am today and the questions
      seem important, for whatever reason. I am not troubled by my current
      state nor do I feel I am missing something in my experience. For me,
      many things simply "are what they are", no questions attached.
      > In one of the original posts establishing this group, Bob asked for
      people to share experiences or process. Here is an experience I have
      had. I welcome comment. I was practicing Hatha Yoga in a group
      setting. I used to practice several times a week, though did not
      pursue any spiritual experience in it. I was focused on health and
      fitness mainly. At the end of one class, while in the final
      relaxation before class ending, I experienced a flow of energy
      throughout my body. While laying flat on the ground, it felt as if my
      hands and feet were anchored to the ground, while my body was pulled
      up into a high arch. The flow of energy was so significant that I
      wondered if I might just float right up off the ground and if anyone
      else would observe this in the physical realm. But my hands and feet
      stayed anchored. With this confidence, I released all resistance and
      enjoyed the experience while it lasted. It seemed to only end when I
      let it flow away as the class was ending.
      > blessings,
      > Candy
      > ps: Jeff, I do not think anyone could accuse you of sounding
      preachy. You have a wonderful style of articulation.

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    • kumara_maniin
      to state briefly man in india we call manushan.manas meaning mind.meditation aims at stilling the mind.by chanting one mantra and slowly driving out all other
      Message 65 of 65 , Oct 10, 2007
        to state briefly man in india we call manushan.manas meaning
        mind.meditation aims at stilling the mind.by chanting one mantra and
        slowly driving out all other thoughts and finally the mantra also
        the mind becomes blank.having started TM thirty years back with a
        mantra,initially i felt euphoric and felt thats it.but slowly there
        was a feeling of dissatisfaction.i now feel mind is like any other
        organ like hand or feet or eyes or ears.since this mind is involved
        in almost all the sensory perceptions in recalling recollecting or
        in some way it has slowly become a master and has gone crazy acting
        without stop and trying to lead the person than just being an
        instrument.yes while we are able to use it constructively to
        analyse.judge conclude and plan we are helpless to switch it off
        when not required.the children do not think much.a butterfly chase
        can make them more happy than a great property.i think we have lost
        the ability to switch off the mind.now the gr88 question is
        fine...but how to switch off?in my opinion it is not that difficult
        either.from ecckhart tolles power of now,i realised always being
        focussed on anything that we are engaged at the moment...at this
        very moment..and bringing the mind constantly back to whatever we
        are doing now..( not asking for much isnt it?)..not thinking about
        the consequences or results or fretting about why we have not done
        this yesterday or any other thought interfering...just be
        here...now..100% is one thing.
        secondly when we are not doing anything ..just observing what our
        thoughts.mind is unable to think when looked at.
        the gap in thoughts could be only couple of seconds but it is a
        start..and i think ..as i read here earlier not seeking just
        watching.. watchingintently to catch a thought...

        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean tremblay
        <bethjams9@...> wrote:
        > Jeff ,
        > I have had many teachers in some most unlikely places. Most did
        not see themselves as such. The way of many teachers is the way of
        being open to all around you, and aware of the inate knowlege
        possed by many from all walks of life, there are truly wise sages
        amoungst us. What ever blockage I am currently feeling I have to
        work it out on my own. My reluctance to submit my will to anouther
        comes from the fact that I have met many charlotains as well as
        sages, A point in case I am a pretty smart dude and I could concoct
        some line of bull shit and even make myself believe it! even derive
        a sense of deep satifaction from it, then the next step I could
        affect a manner of speach in the style of David Carridine and walk
        around calmly despencing my knowlege. At this point I could even
        develope a fallowing, but I would not do that nor have it done to me!
        > But the great sages are out thier and I just have ro Tune My
        Dial Back In
        > P/S I likke the qoutes from J.C. truly a great master I always
        dug his work
        > Jeff Belyea <jeff@...> wrote:
        > Sean,
        > There is so much information
        > and insight into your perspective
        > in the short paragraph you wrote,
        > that it will be impossible to be
        > brief in reply...but I'll try.
        > One other thing: I'll also try
        > not to sound "preachy". There
        > was a teacher who used anologies
        > in his really beautiful teachings,
        > and I draw upon them often -
        > because they are so on point.
        > Unfortunately, the church has
        > created such a trainwreck of
        > what this particular master
        > taught that many people have
        > "thrown the baby out with the
        > bathwater". (You and I have each
        > used this expression).
        > He is reported to have said that,
        > "Only as child do you enter the
        > Kingdom of Heaven". And as you
        > have written, it is the lightness
        > of being that a child knows that
        > we miss as life coerces us into
        > worry and stress and obligation.
        > The good news is that there is
        > a Truth that sets you free...and
        > returns you to the garden - that
        > lightness of being, as a nearly
        > constant state of Being. Life
        > will still through an occasionally
        > curve ball, a shot of adrenalin,
        > and a temporary rush of negativity -
        > but once the Truth is discovered,
        > these are only momentary flashes
        > with no residual. Kind of the
        > reverse of what you mention as
        > glimpses into the lightness, in
        > a life that lacks the lightness
        > of Being - it is a lightness of
        > Being with glimpses into the
        > negativity the world bombards
        > us with daily.
        > It is possible to rise above the
        > circumstances and enjoy a fullness
        > of joy as a way of life.
        > Some people seem to never experience
        > the angst of uneasiness and longing
        > for the light, but those who do find
        > that is just doesn't go away. And so,
        > we find ourselves "seeking". We try
        > meditation and yoga, and attempt to
        > pump ourselves up with resolve to
        > be grateful and appreciative of
        > the beauty that surrounds us every
        > day in nature, music, relationships,
        > and even commerce. But to resolve
        > never seems to last - until...
        > "When the student is ready, the
        > teacher appears." The "teacher" can
        > take many forms, and that light
        > can come on when least expected.
        > It seems to ALWAYS come as a rush
        > of sudden wisdom.
        > We seem more removed as time passes,
        > and your keen polymorphic (a 25
        > center word that I don't have a
        > chance to use often) insight into the
        > parallels of actually seeing the edges
        > of objects more distinctly is a
        > powerful reflection of that sense
        > of separation and longing for
        > lightness.
        > For me, it became a desparate
        > search, until I was willing to
        > lose my life to/or find it. That
        > doesn't have to be the case, but
        > there seems to come a point where
        > the longing becomes all consuming
        > for some.
        > (The following is necessarily
        > subjective and offered as opinion.
        > We can only teach from our own
        > experiences, and there may others
        > here who will offer other approaches...
        > If you find yourself approaching that
        > consuming level of inquiry...pitch your camp
        > at one sight. Find a teacher. Accept
        > the teaching of someone who has
        > made the journey, and who is willing
        > to be your guide.
        > Your heart will resonate from the
        > sound of their voice, the content
        > of their teaching, or even a book
        > they have written - even their
        > photograph. If your teacher happens
        > to be in nature, it may be to
        > magic of sunrises or sunsets that
        > will speak to you. You get the idea.
        > Meditation seems to be a pretty
        > common gateway to the garden to
        > which you wish to return. Patience
        > is virtue when it comes to this.
        > (I know that's not your strongest
        > virtue, and it may require some
        > time in the patience gym).
        > More later.
        > Love, as always,
        > Jeff
        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean tremblay
        > <bethjams9@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Jeff,
        > > I've had a revelationion this morning, something I have been
        > trying to articulate. In life I guess I've gleened some insights
        > about people and things. I've been to the bottom of the ocean and
        > around the world, I've played cards with prostitutes, drank cheap
        > wine with bums, flown with CEO's in private jets and dined with
        > millionairs. All these things have taught me something, but thier
        > also something I've lost, something I've wittnessed with my kids.
        > It's a lightness of being, I remember it well, that garden of eden
        > but I can't seem to get back to it, I catch glimpses of it. With
        > every pain felt or experienced or witnessed it seems I have grown
        > harder and denser like the callouses of my hands. The worlds edges
        > that define the boundry of objects in view seem sharper. And the
        > yoga and meditaion under the wise tutorage of my wife just don't
        > to be enough, I supose I need to spend more time with my kids and
        > rediscover the joy of finding butterfly eggs or a tree
        > > frog or simply hanging out and realy enjoying chocolate milk.
        > >
        > > Jeff Belyea <jeff@> wrote:
        > > Hey Sean, I love your humor
        > > and your colorful play of words.
        > >
        > > Email and online discussions
        > > do tend to flatten the tone,
        > > and often tongue-in-check
        > > humor can sound sarcastic,
        > > and beside the point. But...
        > >
        > > You seem to be one of those
        > > writers who layers their prose
        > > with several meanings. Some
        > > are good at reading this, and
        > > some miss all but the superficial
        > > layer. Not to worry. It's all
        > > perfect.
        > >
        > > Love, as always,
        > >
        > > Jeff
        > >
        > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean tremblay
        > > <bethjams9@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I guess thats what I was trying to say.....thanks Jeff. I
        > I
        > > have a courser manner of putting it and a bit crass as well, but
        > > thats my humor of couse nobody can hear the inflections of tone
        > my
        > > voice. There are those out there who seek to lead others and
        > > are those out there who seek to be lead.. hence drugged monkeys
        > > organ grinders.
        > > > I do supose it's not my role to correct this it's as as
        > > itself, and the Buddha cautioned against taking anybodies word a
        > face
        > > value even his. I of course don't have the patience of the Buddha
        > > > But I am glad we got the ball rolling again and thier are some
        > > real discusions taking place
        > > > Thanks guy's
        > > >
        > > > Jeff Belyea <jeff@> wrote:
        > > > I hope to add clarity here
        > > > and not confusion...
        > > >
        > > > While it is ultimately true
        > > > that there is no seeking and
        > > > nothing to be sought...it is
        > > > a matter of timing.
        > > >
        > > > When we are stirred by the
        > > > sense of unhappiness or "something
        > > > missing" in our lives, we do
        > > > initially seek an ineffable
        > > > "something" to satisfy the longing
        > > > for contentment and happiness.
        > > >
        > > > Often, that occurs to us as
        > > > a new job, new car, bigger house,
        > > > bigger muscles, success on our
        > > > terms, new relationships, and so on.
        > > >
        > > > But when we achieve any or all
        > > > of these "things", we find that
        > > > the longing remains and we hear
        > > > the old refrain, "Is this all there
        > > > is?"...and we're back on the search,
        > > > again.
        > > >
        > > > However, as tough as it may be
        > > > to swallow, the paradox is that
        > > > we must give up the search (the
        > > > seduction as Sean described it)
        > > > and come to a place of absolute
        > > > surrender of the search, the
        > > > desires, the longing. We must
        > > > give it all up and just stop.
        > > >
        > > > It is here, at the stop sign,
        > > > that the magic may happen. We
        > > > have "seeded" our magic garden
        > > > earlier with the search. To stay
        > > > with this metaphor, we must now
        > > > wait silently while the growth
        > > > begins without our conscious
        > > > knowledge. Any attempt to peek
        > > > too soon destroys the potential
        > > > fruit (or veggie) of Awakening.
        > > >
        > > > This timing aspect causes a lot
        > > > of confusion and discouragement -
        > > > especially when those who are
        > > > not authentic in their "teaching"
        > > > speak and write about not seeking.
        > > >
        > > > The curriculum runs: Seeking, Not
        > > > Seeking, SURPRISE! The surprise
        > > > is beyond anything we could think
        > > > or imagine, beyond description,
        > > > a joy unspeakable, a peace beyond
        > > > understanding. Of course, we cannot
        > > > seek it in advance, because IT
        > > > does not yield to concept or idea.
        > > >
        > > > This is not the same as saying
        > > > that IT does not exist or IT is
        > > > some mental fabrication and opium
        > > > of the masses (or spritually
        > > > drugged monkies on minimum wage
        > > > for an organ grinder).
        > > >
        > > > Too long already. Hope there's
        > > > something here of clarity.
        > > >
        > > > Jeff
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Sandeep
        > > > <sandeep1960@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > sean tremblay wrote:
        > > > > > Sandeep,
        > > > > > Anouther great reply
        > > > > > I think what I am getting at is there is a seduction in
        > Finding
        > > > this
        > > > > > THING and having possesion of it.
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > *The very sense of "something-to-be-sought" call it THING or
        > > Self,
        > > > or
        > > > > Enlightenment or happiness
        > > > > constructs the sense of "you-the-seeker-of-the-defined-
        > > > >
        > > > > The perpetuating of the sense of "something-to-be-sought"
        > > > perpetuates
        > > > > the sense of "you-the-seeker-of-the-defined-sought".
        > > > >
        > > > > The term being used is sense of..........as no such
        > construction
        > > > > actually takes place.
        > > > > *
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > > I like to use the terms of dependent and independent
        > realities,
        > > > that
        > > > > > kinda jives with me
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > > The dependent reality as you know is the cause and efect
        > > response
        > > > that
        > > > > > causes suffering, and alienation, raises questions and
        > in
        > > > the
        > > > > > blanks.... I'ts the filling in the blanks part that may
        > a
        > > > person
        > > > > > to manufacture an answer that may or may not lead to
        > fullfilment
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > *Is there anything as independent reality?
        > > > >
        > > > > Is there anything really independent .......aka.......that
        > which
        > > > is not
        > > > > dependent on........... which it is supposed to be
        > of?
        > > > > *
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > *//*__,_._,__
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ---------------------------------
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