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Re: [Meditation Society of America] Seeking, Finding, Floundering, Flowering

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  • C. Joubert
    Ted, Beautiful post, thank you for taking the time. I share your background in evangelical christianity. I left organized religion because of being burned out
    Message 1 of 65 , Aug 28, 2007
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      Ted,
      Beautiful post, thank you for taking the time.
       
      I share your background in evangelical christianity. I left organized religion because of being burned out (20 years of devout service) and shortly after released myself from all belief that rested in a need for salvation and a spiritual separation between myself and "God". At first, I remained interested in biblical scriptures but read them from a completely different perspective. But the background was so ingrained in me, that I needed to walk away from all things biblical to clear my mind and give myself a chance to breath unfiltered spiritual air.
       
      I have looked into several other religions, such as Wicca, Buddhism, and most recently the LOA (law of attraction). In all of them I find things that feel good, resonate, and seem worthy of consideration. But in all of them I also bump up against a wall. Usually it is something arbitrary that seems to me completely out of place and unnecessary, like bad packaging on an otherwise decent product. But it planted the seeds of doubt and probably a bit of mistrust. [yeah, I know its the whole baby and bathwater thing].
       
      At my core, essentially, I reached a point where I believed I had everything I need...that I was born into or with a perfection of spirit that while unrealized (tongue in cheek for Jeff there ;-), is nevertheless there, growing, and pulsing in everything I do. I felt no need to 'search for a path'. In fact, I was content to let truths present themselves to me in whatever way they would. My focus was on enjoying life and my physical experience, which included a lot of outdoor/nature related activities.
       
      Two things sort of catapulted me into searching again. The first was my mentioned need to present something for my daughter.
      But along with that has been the unsettling results of physical changes in my body after childbirth. I used to be an extremely articulate, organized, and verbally expressive person. I have won awards, promotions, refunds, pay raises, positions, responsibilities, etc., directly resulting from my ability to articulate myself verbally and in written form. Since my daughter's birth, however,  I have experienced foggy thinking, forgetfulness, and funny quirks in my basic personality. I still have to double read my emails 3-4 times to catch all my mistakes, where I think one word and type a similar but completely different one. I have lost count the number of times I have lost keys, locked myself out of the house, or other such mental/physical small trainwrecks. Extremely frustrating for me. It was sort of like having the one person I could really depend on (ME!) become undependable. I started feeling vulnerabilities and weaknesses inch upon me...and there is where my fears of how I parent and what I pass on to my daughter spiritually began to pop up.
       
      The second, and most recent event, was the death of a soldier serving with my husband in Iraq. I attended the memorial and the experience was both the most beautiful and most horrible thing I have ever experienced. I have experienced death of loved ones before, but this was like experiencing the death of my spouse, as the man who died and my husband were very close, did the same job, ate meals together, used the same equipment, traveled the same roads, every day. That it was him (and others) who died that day was a bit of a coin toss. Everything in the memorial, except the man's name, was nearly exactly as it would have been if my husband were the one gone. Long short, I found myself extremely disturbed by this passing. I would stand at the man's grave on a weekly basis and grieve and wonder how his mother could prevent herself from tearing at the dirt to retrieve her son.
       
      So there, in that place, I began to wrestle again with the eternal and my place in it. I found some measure of peace by simply choosing to believe. To believe that he wasn't gone. To believe that while I can't define what IT is out there, I can believe it is peaceful, joyful, and never-ending - for him...and therefore for me.
       
      When I use meditation (I am a complete beginner) I love the calmness of mind and restfulness it brings. When I read the post a few days ago about meeting the true me, the essence that I am, along with Jeff's description of Realization, it brought tears of hope - while I had not even realized I was missing hope.
       
      So there is a small piece of my experience. Thank you for sharing your truths. I really enjoyed reading your post.
      One thing I find great pleasure in is the way my daughter responds to me sitting quietly. While I follow Chopra's advise to not limit the natural energy and enthusiasm of children under the age of 5 by expecting them to follow a meditation routine, I love that she naturally wants to sit next to me and share my connection to all that is.
       
      While I still feel struggles and strains of the physical, there is an undercurrent of trust, faith, knowledge, love, and belief that there is no wrong path or choice. I am free, whole, and perfect. I believe.
       
      Candy
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Ted
      Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 9:18 AM
      Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Seeking, Finding, Floundering, Flowering

      OK, the heading is a bit lame but what can I say? ...this is a really
      long thought... just a warning. lol  I think I'll post it on my blog,
      too.  So anyway....

      Candy, thanks for the comments on keeping kids.  It's a shame how so
      few realize it's the kids that do the saving.  Many more kids would
      find homes if people understood that. 

      Your words, Candy, struck a chord with me.  A couple of years ago I
      fell apart.  The uglies of life jumped right up and bit me in two. Up
      until that point I'd held on to a faith in God though I'd abandoned
      the doctrinal goofiness of my former years long ago.  But then the
      whole world came crashing down.  My catch-phrase became, "Life sucks
      and then you die."

      But then there were the kids.  Month after month I sank lower.  The
      only thing on this earth that kept me breathing was the love of my
      kids.  Our bonds go very deep.  Unfortunately my pessimism was rubbing
      off on them.  They picked up the phrase "Life sucks and then yo die"
      too.  It sounds bad coming from a five-year-old.  Eventually I reached
      a point of total confusion.  Then I became fearful of death and at the
      same time developed a paranoid feeling that I was about to die.
      Psychologists probably have all kinds of "syndromes" to describe me.
      All I knew was that I was screwed up.  That "white light" you spoke
      about had gone out for me.

      One year ago I hit 49.  I realized I was far past my mid-life and I
      had no clue.  Worse, I had kids who clung to my every word and my
      every word was nothing but pessimism.  I absolutely had to find Truth
      so I could leave them something, something to hang on to, when I was
      gone.  And I was sure I would be gone.  I quit all my other projects,
      abandoned housework, and leaped into an examination of life, truth,
      God, and all that.  I wanted not to fear death but more than that I
      wanted to know my kids had Truth.

      You said you "...feel some level of responsibility to present a
      coherent thought process on what mommy believes."  That nails how I
      felt.  What I came up with, what I discovered, completely
      revolutionized my life, my thought processes, my attitudes, and is
      slowly revolutionizing my family as well.  In the words of Sidharta
      Gautuama, and Jesus, and elsewhere, I finally found Truth and
      understanding.  It's simple, direct, and entirely applicable to
      everyone, no matter where they are in belief or faith.  I sound like a
      Guru, don't I? lol

      Here, briefly, are the points I have discovered (at least as brief as
      one with Energizer Bunny Syndrome can be):

      1. There are truths available for the knowing and then there is Truth
      that we cannot in our finite state ever comprehend.  Jeff wrote: "We
      'find' ourselves in this human form - not knowing how or why or for
      what purpose, if any. The rational, linear way of thinking does not
      allow for, and cannot grasp infinity, first cause, no beginning, no
      end, eternity...."  Absolutely. 

      2. Unable to discover Truth fully ourselves, we are being presumptuous
      and self-righteous to impose the partial-truths we have adopted as our
      "religion" upon others.  We can share, discuss, debate, but it is
      wrong in my opinion to insist someone follow the same creeds.  Of
      course I'm referring primarily to Evangelical Christianity of which I
      was once an adherent and zealot.  But many religions share the same
      "exclusivity" factor.  As a rule, Buddhism doesn't.  I am slowly
      drifting in that direction.

      3. There is yesterday, today, and tomorrow.  Yesterday includes the
      whole history of the universe up until one moment ago.  We have no way
      to view, comprehend, or grasp all those trillions of events nor even
      are we able to look back at our own life objectively.  Tomorrow, is of
      course, also out of reach.  Like Jeff said, we're linear, stuck in
      time.  Infinity in either direction is beyond our comprehension.  The
      present, however, what is right now, we can grasp.

      We must, therefore, live in the present.  We must be Mindful, to use a
      good Buddhist term.  We must let yesterday be, turn loose of it
      however we can, by forgiving, by accepting, by bidding it farewell.
      And we must not fret over tomorrow, either the day to come or the
      second after our last breath.  If we choose to live in the present
      moment and in this moment make the right choices tomorrow will take
      care of itself.

      4. But what are the "Right" choices?  How do we know?  If we can't
      know God, if we can't nail down all those universal absolutes, aren't
      we adrift in not-knowing?  Not exactly.  Remember I said there are
      truths we can know.  They are there, right under our noses, if we only
      look for them.  Actually, it's only one truth and that truth is, in
      fact, an absolute.  It is called Love.

      Jeff wrote, "The answers to these questions (if we persist in pursuing
      them...for whatever reason) come in a way that we do not expect. It is
      more that they dissolve as meaningless in the 'big' picture, and are
      replaced with...a startling wisdom that is found in the matrix
      of...Love. It comes and gets us."  Great words!

      In my search I discovered that there's a thread that runs through
      hundreds of belief systems from the staunchest atheists to the most
      hard-nosed fundamentalists of whatever religion.  That thread, though
      written in many forms, is this: "do unto others as you would have them
      do unto you."  At the very bottom, the most solid foundation of all
      our societies, so many of our laws, there lies this foundation which
      is, in fact, an expression of love.  We call it the "Golden Rule."

      Many people have recognized what I discovered, that the words of Jesus
      and the words of Gautama are virtually identical.  How could this be
      possible?  How could a Jewish Messiah and a teacher in Asia, entirely
      and absolutely removed from each other by time, space, distance,
      belief and culture, wind up espousing identical values?  It is
      possible because neither Jesus nor Gautama were "inventing" anything.
       Gautama did not claim to be a god, merely an individual who had been
      enlightened.  Jesus continuously said his words were not his own but
      were his Father's.  Ah-hah!

      Here's something we can latch on to.  Love.  But what of it?  What is
      love?  That, my friend, is the right question.  The answer is, love,
      as taught by so many understanding and enlightened souls, including
      the Buddha and the Christ, is a choice.  It is not an emotion, a
      feeling, or a sensation.  Those may go along with the choice but in
      the end the love spoken of by the great Masters is more, far more than
      feelings.  In fact, in most instances the act of love must come long
      before the feeling of love is realized.

      An evangelist in 17th Century America, Charles Finney, taught
      extensively on what he called the "Law of Benevolence."  No matter how
      Calvinistic Finney might have been in his faith he was right on target
      with this teaching.  Gautama, Jesus, so many others, tell us that the
      way we should live when we live in this moment is to live by the Law
      of Benevolence, the law of love.  This "law" has many facets, many
      faces, and there's not room here (even with my rambling) to go into
      them.  But it is this law, the two great commandments of Jesus, the
      Eight Fold Path of Gautama, that dictate how we should live. 

      I actually wrote a book about all I discovered.  In it I lay out what
      I call The Way, a very simple plan to discard self in favor of others,
      to put others' needs ahead of self, to treat others better than self,
      to love enemies and offer complete and total forgiveness to all.  When
      I completed the book I began to practice these things as precisely as
      I could.  That was when my life was completely revolutionized.

      So, down here at the bottom I return to your statement, Candy, about
      your need to present some coherent thought process to your child.
      Once I had made these conclusions I began to teach them to my children
      and to my wife.  We've had "Sunday School" on occasion where I've
      taught the words of Jesus right alongside the Eight Fold Path.  In
      daily prayer, Bible reading (we're going through the Gospels) and
      short meditation I continue to teach the universal truth of Love and
      how it applies. 

      I do not attempt to instill them with dogma nor to indoctrinate them
      with doctrine.  In the end they'll have to find their own place in
      faith.  When they get older I will guide them as much as they let me
      but their trek is their own.  What I do, instead, is point out the
      Truth of Love.  In the beginning I had to open up to them the mistakes
      I made, apologize to them for my lousy attitudes, explain to them how
      I should have acted, and reveal to them the best course of action
      according to the Law of Benevolence (I love that Finney phrase). 

      These are all, of course, just words.  They have no meaning if my kids
      do not see them in action in my life.  Not only did I feel the need to
      point to my failures and ask forgiveness but I also have realized the
       responsibility I have now to live according to The Way and show
      rather than tell how it works.  Where once I would talk ugly about
      political figures whom I believed were bad for the country (I was an
      avid contributer to the Letters column of our local paper) now I tell
      them I was ugly and wrong for doing that and now I pray for those
      individuals.  Where once I was a know-it-all sometimes I explain that
      I don't know anything other than love is of the most important. 

      Finally, considering that this board is dedicated to meditation, let
      me conclude my ridiculously long post by saying all I'd learned and my
      choice to put these things into practice never quite came together
      until I began to meditate regularly.  I spoke of meditation in my book
      even before I had begun the process myself.  Once I did I discovered
      that meditation is a place where everything comes together.  In
      practicing a form of Vipassana meditation, relying upon the
      instructions of the Buddha, I learn mindfulness, find clarity, and
      experience renewal, even when my mindful meditation turns out to be
      being mindful of my lack of mindfulness.

      Every day is precious.  When we are mindful we recognize this even
      more.  In meditation we observe the "now" and ourselves in it.  Then
      in our lives we recognize the preciousness of all we have, whatever
      those things are.  The importance of the Law of Benevolence grows more
      clear all the time.  Today, we live.  Today we love.  Today, we are.
      If I can get this understanding across to my children I will have
      accomplished my greatest purpose.

      Selah.

      ... ok, class dismissed. hahaha....

      Ted



       
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    • kumara_maniin
      to state briefly man in india we call manushan.manas meaning mind.meditation aims at stilling the mind.by chanting one mantra and slowly driving out all other
      Message 65 of 65 , Oct 10, 2007
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        to state briefly man in india we call manushan.manas meaning
        mind.meditation aims at stilling the mind.by chanting one mantra and
        slowly driving out all other thoughts and finally the mantra also
        the mind becomes blank.having started TM thirty years back with a
        mantra,initially i felt euphoric and felt thats it.but slowly there
        was a feeling of dissatisfaction.i now feel mind is like any other
        organ like hand or feet or eyes or ears.since this mind is involved
        in almost all the sensory perceptions in recalling recollecting or
        in some way it has slowly become a master and has gone crazy acting
        without stop and trying to lead the person than just being an
        instrument.yes while we are able to use it constructively to
        analyse.judge conclude and plan we are helpless to switch it off
        when not required.the children do not think much.a butterfly chase
        can make them more happy than a great property.i think we have lost
        the ability to switch off the mind.now the gr88 question is
        fine...but how to switch off?in my opinion it is not that difficult
        either.from ecckhart tolles power of now,i realised always being
        focussed on anything that we are engaged at the moment...at this
        very moment..and bringing the mind constantly back to whatever we
        are doing now..( not asking for much isnt it?)..not thinking about
        the consequences or results or fretting about why we have not done
        this yesterday or any other thought interfering...just be
        here...now..100% is one thing.
        secondly when we are not doing anything ..just observing what our
        thoughts.mind is unable to think when looked at.
        the gap in thoughts could be only couple of seconds but it is a
        start..and i think ..as i read here earlier not seeking just
        watching.. watchingintently to catch a thought...
        mani

        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean tremblay
        <bethjams9@...> wrote:
        >
        > Jeff ,
        > I have had many teachers in some most unlikely places. Most did
        not see themselves as such. The way of many teachers is the way of
        being open to all around you, and aware of the inate knowlege
        possed by many from all walks of life, there are truly wise sages
        amoungst us. What ever blockage I am currently feeling I have to
        work it out on my own. My reluctance to submit my will to anouther
        comes from the fact that I have met many charlotains as well as
        sages, A point in case I am a pretty smart dude and I could concoct
        some line of bull shit and even make myself believe it! even derive
        a sense of deep satifaction from it, then the next step I could
        affect a manner of speach in the style of David Carridine and walk
        around calmly despencing my knowlege. At this point I could even
        develope a fallowing, but I would not do that nor have it done to me!
        > But the great sages are out thier and I just have ro Tune My
        Dial Back In
        > P/S I likke the qoutes from J.C. truly a great master I always
        dug his work
        >
        > Jeff Belyea <jeff@...> wrote:
        > Sean,
        >
        > There is so much information
        > and insight into your perspective
        > in the short paragraph you wrote,
        > that it will be impossible to be
        > brief in reply...but I'll try.
        >
        > One other thing: I'll also try
        > not to sound "preachy". There
        > was a teacher who used anologies
        > in his really beautiful teachings,
        > and I draw upon them often -
        > because they are so on point.
        >
        > Unfortunately, the church has
        > created such a trainwreck of
        > what this particular master
        > taught that many people have
        > "thrown the baby out with the
        > bathwater". (You and I have each
        > used this expression).
        >
        > He is reported to have said that,
        > "Only as child do you enter the
        > Kingdom of Heaven". And as you
        > have written, it is the lightness
        > of being that a child knows that
        > we miss as life coerces us into
        > worry and stress and obligation.
        >
        > The good news is that there is
        > a Truth that sets you free...and
        > returns you to the garden - that
        > lightness of being, as a nearly
        > constant state of Being. Life
        > will still through an occasionally
        > curve ball, a shot of adrenalin,
        > and a temporary rush of negativity -
        > but once the Truth is discovered,
        > these are only momentary flashes
        > with no residual. Kind of the
        > reverse of what you mention as
        > glimpses into the lightness, in
        > a life that lacks the lightness
        > of Being - it is a lightness of
        > Being with glimpses into the
        > negativity the world bombards
        > us with daily.
        >
        > It is possible to rise above the
        > circumstances and enjoy a fullness
        > of joy as a way of life.
        >
        > Some people seem to never experience
        > the angst of uneasiness and longing
        > for the light, but those who do find
        > that is just doesn't go away. And so,
        > we find ourselves "seeking". We try
        > meditation and yoga, and attempt to
        > pump ourselves up with resolve to
        > be grateful and appreciative of
        > the beauty that surrounds us every
        > day in nature, music, relationships,
        > and even commerce. But to resolve
        > never seems to last - until...
        >
        > "When the student is ready, the
        > teacher appears." The "teacher" can
        > take many forms, and that light
        > can come on when least expected.
        > It seems to ALWAYS come as a rush
        > of sudden wisdom.
        >
        > We seem more removed as time passes,
        > and your keen polymorphic (a 25
        > center word that I don't have a
        > chance to use often) insight into the
        > parallels of actually seeing the edges
        > of objects more distinctly is a
        > powerful reflection of that sense
        > of separation and longing for
        > lightness.
        >
        > For me, it became a desparate
        > search, until I was willing to
        > lose my life to/or find it. That
        > doesn't have to be the case, but
        > there seems to come a point where
        > the longing becomes all consuming
        > for some.
        >
        > (The following is necessarily
        > subjective and offered as opinion.
        > We can only teach from our own
        > experiences, and there may others
        > here who will offer other approaches...
        >
        > If you find yourself approaching that
        > consuming level of inquiry...pitch your camp
        > at one sight. Find a teacher. Accept
        > the teaching of someone who has
        > made the journey, and who is willing
        > to be your guide.
        >
        > Your heart will resonate from the
        > sound of their voice, the content
        > of their teaching, or even a book
        > they have written - even their
        > photograph. If your teacher happens
        > to be in nature, it may be to
        > magic of sunrises or sunsets that
        > will speak to you. You get the idea.
        >
        > Meditation seems to be a pretty
        > common gateway to the garden to
        > which you wish to return. Patience
        > is virtue when it comes to this.
        > (I know that's not your strongest
        > virtue, and it may require some
        > time in the patience gym).
        >
        > More later.
        >
        > Love, as always,
        >
        > Jeff
        >
        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean tremblay
        > <bethjams9@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Jeff,
        > > I've had a revelationion this morning, something I have been
        > trying to articulate. In life I guess I've gleened some insights
        > about people and things. I've been to the bottom of the ocean and
        > around the world, I've played cards with prostitutes, drank cheap
        > wine with bums, flown with CEO's in private jets and dined with
        > millionairs. All these things have taught me something, but thier
        is
        > also something I've lost, something I've wittnessed with my kids.
        > It's a lightness of being, I remember it well, that garden of eden
        > but I can't seem to get back to it, I catch glimpses of it. With
        > every pain felt or experienced or witnessed it seems I have grown
        > harder and denser like the callouses of my hands. The worlds edges
        > that define the boundry of objects in view seem sharper. And the
        > yoga and meditaion under the wise tutorage of my wife just don't
        seem
        > to be enough, I supose I need to spend more time with my kids and
        > rediscover the joy of finding butterfly eggs or a tree
        > > frog or simply hanging out and realy enjoying chocolate milk.
        > >
        > > Jeff Belyea <jeff@> wrote:
        > > Hey Sean, I love your humor
        > > and your colorful play of words.
        > >
        > > Email and online discussions
        > > do tend to flatten the tone,
        > > and often tongue-in-check
        > > humor can sound sarcastic,
        > > and beside the point. But...
        > >
        > > You seem to be one of those
        > > writers who layers their prose
        > > with several meanings. Some
        > > are good at reading this, and
        > > some miss all but the superficial
        > > layer. Not to worry. It's all
        > > perfect.
        > >
        > > Love, as always,
        > >
        > > Jeff
        > >
        > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean tremblay
        > > <bethjams9@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I guess thats what I was trying to say.....thanks Jeff. I
        suppose
        > I
        > > have a courser manner of putting it and a bit crass as well, but
        > > thats my humor of couse nobody can hear the inflections of tone
        in
        > my
        > > voice. There are those out there who seek to lead others and
        there
        > > are those out there who seek to be lead.. hence drugged monkeys
        and
        > > organ grinders.
        > > > I do supose it's not my role to correct this it's as as
        humanity
        > > itself, and the Buddha cautioned against taking anybodies word a
        > face
        > > value even his. I of course don't have the patience of the Buddha
        > > > But I am glad we got the ball rolling again and thier are some
        > > real discusions taking place
        > > > Thanks guy's
        > > >
        > > > Jeff Belyea <jeff@> wrote:
        > > > I hope to add clarity here
        > > > and not confusion...
        > > >
        > > > While it is ultimately true
        > > > that there is no seeking and
        > > > nothing to be sought...it is
        > > > a matter of timing.
        > > >
        > > > When we are stirred by the
        > > > sense of unhappiness or "something
        > > > missing" in our lives, we do
        > > > initially seek an ineffable
        > > > "something" to satisfy the longing
        > > > for contentment and happiness.
        > > >
        > > > Often, that occurs to us as
        > > > a new job, new car, bigger house,
        > > > bigger muscles, success on our
        > > > terms, new relationships, and so on.
        > > >
        > > > But when we achieve any or all
        > > > of these "things", we find that
        > > > the longing remains and we hear
        > > > the old refrain, "Is this all there
        > > > is?"...and we're back on the search,
        > > > again.
        > > >
        > > > However, as tough as it may be
        > > > to swallow, the paradox is that
        > > > we must give up the search (the
        > > > seduction as Sean described it)
        > > > and come to a place of absolute
        > > > surrender of the search, the
        > > > desires, the longing. We must
        > > > give it all up and just stop.
        > > >
        > > > It is here, at the stop sign,
        > > > that the magic may happen. We
        > > > have "seeded" our magic garden
        > > > earlier with the search. To stay
        > > > with this metaphor, we must now
        > > > wait silently while the growth
        > > > begins without our conscious
        > > > knowledge. Any attempt to peek
        > > > too soon destroys the potential
        > > > fruit (or veggie) of Awakening.
        > > >
        > > > This timing aspect causes a lot
        > > > of confusion and discouragement -
        > > > especially when those who are
        > > > not authentic in their "teaching"
        > > > speak and write about not seeking.
        > > >
        > > > The curriculum runs: Seeking, Not
        > > > Seeking, SURPRISE! The surprise
        > > > is beyond anything we could think
        > > > or imagine, beyond description,
        > > > a joy unspeakable, a peace beyond
        > > > understanding. Of course, we cannot
        > > > seek it in advance, because IT
        > > > does not yield to concept or idea.
        > > >
        > > > This is not the same as saying
        > > > that IT does not exist or IT is
        > > > some mental fabrication and opium
        > > > of the masses (or spritually
        > > > drugged monkies on minimum wage
        > > > for an organ grinder).
        > > >
        > > > Too long already. Hope there's
        > > > something here of clarity.
        > > >
        > > > Jeff
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Sandeep
        > > > <sandeep1960@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > sean tremblay wrote:
        > > > > > Sandeep,
        > > > > > Anouther great reply
        > > > > > I think what I am getting at is there is a seduction in
        > Finding
        > > > this
        > > > > > THING and having possesion of it.
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > *The very sense of "something-to-be-sought" call it THING or
        > > Self,
        > > > or
        > > > > Enlightenment or happiness
        > > > > constructs the sense of "you-the-seeker-of-the-defined-
        sought".
        > > > >
        > > > > The perpetuating of the sense of "something-to-be-sought"
        > > > perpetuates
        > > > > the sense of "you-the-seeker-of-the-defined-sought".
        > > > >
        > > > > The term being used is sense of..........as no such
        > construction
        > > > > actually takes place.
        > > > > *
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > > I like to use the terms of dependent and independent
        > realities,
        > > > that
        > > > > > kinda jives with me
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > > The dependent reality as you know is the cause and efect
        > > response
        > > > that
        > > > > > causes suffering, and alienation, raises questions and
        fills
        > in
        > > > the
        > > > > > blanks.... I'ts the filling in the blanks part that may
        lead
        > a
        > > > person
        > > > > > to manufacture an answer that may or may not lead to
        > fullfilment
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > *Is there anything as independent reality?
        > > > >
        > > > > Is there anything really independent .......aka.......that
        > which
        > > > is not
        > > > > dependent on........... which it is supposed to be
        independent
        > of?
        > > > > *
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > *//*__,_._,__
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
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