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RE: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting

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  • Aideen McKenna
    Exactly. That s what confuses me, too. ---Aideen _____ From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com]
    Message 1 of 17 , Jul 16, 2007
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      Exactly.  That’s what confuses me, too.  ---Aideen

       

       


      From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com [mailto: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Grace Yllana
      Sent: July 16, 2007 10:52 AM
      To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America ] Re: Sleepy & Hurting

       

      Hello all...I'm confused about the pain issue...I heard that part of meditation is to be able to "observe" pain, discomforts and other sensations.. .and realize they have a shelf life..or are temporary... etc...what is the word on pain..not from arthritis or any ailment...the pain and discomfort that sitting in one position for a long time produce??

      Grace Yllana

      Daniel Bonekeeper <bonekeeper@gmail. com> wrote:

      Aideen, have you tried to sleep as much as you could, to the point where you just can't sleep anymore ? Try this. Sleep until you are fully rested and just can't sleep anymore, even if you tried. Then, try to meditate, and we'll see.

      About the pain, I can't tell much... personally I like to meditate in an reclinable armchair, very confortable, so it's easy to just forget the body.

      Daniel

      On 7/16/07, Aideen McKenna <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:

      Errata: I exercise regularly, not irregularly.  --Aideen

       


      From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com] On Behalf Of Aideen McKenna
      Sent: July 16, 2007 9:17 AM
      To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [Meditation Society of America ] Re: Sleepy & Hurting

       

      Thanks to Sean & Bob.  Thanks also to the people who responded to Ben's post, because what they said reminded me that here are other ways of meditating besides sitting on a zafu.

      The cause of my painful joints is no mystery – it's arthritis, & there are times when it's more painful than other times.  I exercise irregularly & take long daily walks. 

      For the present, I'll make dish-washing my meditation & I'll position myself as Witness to the pain in my hands, which is less frightful than hip-joint pain.

      It's all good.

      Aideen

       


      From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sean tremblay
      Sent: July 16, 2007 3:59 AM
      To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America ] Re: Sleepy & Hurting

       

      Aideen: you may need to see a doctor, it could be circulatory or even something in the nervous system.  In the mean time take a break from meditation.  Get plenty of rest and exercise especialy after dinner take a long walk if it's safe to do so.

      sean

      aideenmck <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:

      --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com , "aideenmck"
      <aideenmck@.. .> wrote:
      >
      > Lately I tend to fall asleep every time I sit down to meditate;
      it's a
      > constant battle to remain awake. Regarding this matter, I find 2
      > conflicting views in books & articles about meditation. One is to
      > accept that what's needed at that time is sleep, so if sleep is
      what
      > happens, so be it. The other is to regard the sleepiness as the
      egoic
      > mind, fearful of annihilation, setting up a hindrance.
      >
      > Another problem which arose about the same time as the sleepiness
      is
      > pain. Again, I read conflicting advice about whether or not to
      adjust
      > my position. Be one with the excruciating pain, or shift the
      foot,
      > leg, whatever.
      >
      > It's a bad patch I'm going through, I guess, because if it isn't
      one
      > thing, it's the other. I'd like to hear what anybody has to say
      about
      > it.
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Aideen
      >
      I'm still wondering whether anybody has words of wisdom about the
      problem of pain to which I referred. Does one go into the pain, as
      it were, remaining physically still? Or move to alleviate it?
      Lately, there's always leg pain when I sit down to meditate, so I
      could be fidgeting constantly. I don't know what to do about this.
      I'd appreciate some advice.
      Thanks,
      Aideen

       

       


      Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
      Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.




      --
      "If you are still asking for the result, then a very subtle effort will continuously be there. You will not be just sitting; you cannot just sit if there are any desires. The desire will be a subtle movement in you, and the movement will continue. You may be sitting like a stone or like a buddha, but still within the stone will be moving. Desire is movement."

       

       


      Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

    • sean tremblay
      When I was in the Army I used to go by the philosophy that Pain is weakness leaving the body after having back surgery my wife who s an RN and yoga
      Message 2 of 17 , Jul 16, 2007
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        When I was in the Army I used to go by the philosophy that "Pain is weakness leaving the body" after having back surgery my wife who's an RN and yoga instructor reminded me "No Sean pain is an indication that something is wrong!"
        She's smarter than me!

        Grace Yllana <yllanagr@...> wrote:
        Hello all...I'm confused about the pain issue...I heard that part of meditation is to be able to "observe" pain, discomforts and other sensations.. .and realize they have a shelf life..or are temporary... etc...what is the word on pain..not from arthritis or any ailment...the pain and discomfort that sitting in one position for a long time produce??

        Grace Yllana

        Daniel Bonekeeper <bonekeeper@gmail. com> wrote:
        Aideen, have you tried to sleep as much as you could, to the point where you just can't sleep anymore ? Try this. Sleep until you are fully rested and just can't sleep anymore, even if you tried. Then, try to meditate, and we'll see.

        About the pain, I can't tell much... personally I like to meditate in an reclinable armchair, very confortable, so it's easy to just forget the body.

        Daniel

        On 7/16/07, Aideen McKenna <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:
        Errata: I exercise regularly, not irregularly.  --Aideen
         

        From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com] On Behalf Of Aideen McKenna
        Sent: July 16, 2007 9:17 AM
        To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting
         
        Thanks to Sean & Bob.  Thanks also to the people who responded to Ben's post, because what they said reminded me that here are other ways of meditating besides sitting on a zafu.
        The cause of my painful joints is no mystery – it's arthritis, & there are times when it's more painful than other times.  I exercise irregularly & take long daily walks. 
        For the present, I'll make dish-washing my meditation & I'll position myself as Witness to the pain in my hands, which is less frightful than hip-joint pain.
        It's all good.
        Aideen
         

        From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sean tremblay
        Sent: July 16, 2007 3:59 AM
        To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting
         
        Aideen: you may need to see a doctor, it could be circulatory or even something in the nervous system.  In the mean time take a break from meditation.  Get plenty of rest and exercise especialy after dinner take a long walk if it's safe to do so.
        sean

        aideenmck <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:
        --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com , "aideenmck"
        <aideenmck@.. .> wrote:
        >
        > Lately I tend to fall asleep every time I sit down to meditate;
        it's a
        > constant battle to remain awake. Regarding this matter, I find 2
        > conflicting views in books & articles about meditation. One is to
        > accept that what's needed at that time is sleep, so if sleep is
        what
        > happens, so be it. The other is to regard the sleepiness as the
        egoic
        > mind, fearful of annihilation, setting up a hindrance.
        >
        > Another problem which arose about the same time as the sleepiness
        is
        > pain. Again, I read conflicting advice about whether or not to
        adjust
        > my position. Be one with the excruciating pain, or shift the
        foot,
        > leg, whatever.
        >
        > It's a bad patch I'm going through, I guess, because if it isn't
        one
        > thing, it's the other. I'd like to hear what anybody has to say
        about
        > it.
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Aideen
        >
        I'm still wondering whether anybody has words of wisdom about the
        problem of pain to which I referred. Does one go into the pain, as
        it were, remaining physically still? Or move to alleviate it?
        Lately, there's always leg pain when I sit down to meditate, so I
        could be fidgeting constantly. I don't know what to do about this.
        I'd appreciate some advice.
        Thanks,
        Aideen
         
         

        Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
        Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.



        --
        "If you are still asking for the result, then a very subtle effort will continuously be there. You will not be just sitting; you cannot just sit if there are any desires. The desire will be a subtle movement in you, and the movement will continue. You may be sitting like a stone or like a buddha, but still within the stone will be moving. Desire is movement."


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      • Grace Yllana
        Does that mean that when the teacher...says locked in one position without moving...we should move and not practice observing the pain? I do know that with
        Message 3 of 17 , Jul 16, 2007
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          Does that mean that when the teacher...says locked in one position without moving...we should move and not practice observing the pain? I do know that with practice..I got better and better at observing the pain and watching it come and go...and one time actually "think" it away..like self hypnosis...but during meditation retreat..I passed out from trying to "observe" the pain..I was hyperventilating to be able to keep in the locked position we were told to keep...and I was the only one who was going to move after 2 hours and did not want to be the one..result I passed out and they took me to ER..so still confused on the pain issue..

          Grace

          sean tremblay <bethjams9@...> wrote:
          When I was in the Army I used to go by the philosophy that "Pain is weakness leaving the body" after having back surgery my wife who's an RN and yoga instructor reminded me "No Sean pain is an indication that something is wrong!"
          She's smarter than me!

          Grace Yllana <yllanagr@yahoo. com> wrote:
          Hello all...I'm confused about the pain issue...I heard that part of meditation is to be able to "observe" pain, discomforts and other sensations.. .and realize they have a shelf life..or are temporary... etc...what is the word on pain..not from arthritis or any ailment...the pain and discomfort that sitting in one position for a long time produce??

          Grace Yllana

          Daniel Bonekeeper <bonekeeper@gmail. com> wrote:
          Aideen, have you tried to sleep as much as you could, to the point where you just can't sleep anymore ? Try this. Sleep until you are fully rested and just can't sleep anymore, even if you tried. Then, try to meditate, and we'll see.

          About the pain, I can't tell much... personally I like to meditate in an reclinable armchair, very confortable, so it's easy to just forget the body.

          Daniel

          On 7/16/07, Aideen McKenna <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:
          Errata: I exercise regularly, not irregularly.  --Aideen
           

          From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com] On Behalf Of Aideen McKenna
          Sent: July 16, 2007 9:17 AM
          To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting
           
          Thanks to Sean & Bob.  Thanks also to the people who responded to Ben's post, because what they said reminded me that here are other ways of meditating besides sitting on a zafu.
          The cause of my painful joints is no mystery – it's arthritis, & there are times when it's more painful than other times.  I exercise irregularly & take long daily walks. 
          For the present, I'll make dish-washing my meditation & I'll position myself as Witness to the pain in my hands, which is less frightful than hip-joint pain.
          It's all good.
          Aideen
           

          From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sean tremblay
          Sent: July 16, 2007 3:59 AM
          To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting
           
          Aideen: you may need to see a doctor, it could be circulatory or even something in the nervous system.  In the mean time take a break from meditation.  Get plenty of rest and exercise especialy after dinner take a long walk if it's safe to do so.
          sean

          aideenmck <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:
          --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com , "aideenmck"
          <aideenmck@.. .> wrote:
          >
          > Lately I tend to fall asleep every time I sit down to meditate;
          it's a
          > constant battle to remain awake. Regarding this matter, I find 2
          > conflicting views in books & articles about meditation. One is to
          > accept that what's needed at that time is sleep, so if sleep is
          what
          > happens, so be it. The other is to regard the sleepiness as the
          egoic
          > mind, fearful of annihilation, setting up a hindrance.
          >
          > Another problem which arose about the same time as the sleepiness
          is
          > pain. Again, I read conflicting advice about whether or not to
          adjust
          > my position. Be one with the excruciating pain, or shift the
          foot,
          > leg, whatever.
          >
          > It's a bad patch I'm going through, I guess, because if it isn't
          one
          > thing, it's the other. I'd like to hear what anybody has to say
          about
          > it.
          >
          > Thanks,
          > Aideen
          >
          I'm still wondering whether anybody has words of wisdom about the
          problem of pain to which I referred. Does one go into the pain, as
          it were, remaining physically still? Or move to alleviate it?
          Lately, there's always leg pain when I sit down to meditate, so I
          could be fidgeting constantly. I don't know what to do about this.
          I'd appreciate some advice.
          Thanks,
          Aideen
           
           

          Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
          Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.



          --
          "If you are still asking for the result, then a very subtle effort will continuously be there. You will not be just sitting; you cannot just sit if there are any desires. The desire will be a subtle movement in you, and the movement will continue. You may be sitting like a stone or like a buddha, but still within the stone will be moving. Desire is movement."


          Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.


          Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.


          Got a little couch potato?
          Check out fun summer activities for kids.

        • medit8ionsociety
          ... without moving...we should move and not practice observing the pain? I do know that with practice..I got better and better at observing the pain and
          Message 4 of 17 , Jul 16, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Grace Yllana
            <yllanagr@...> wrote:
            >
            > Does that mean that when the teacher...says locked in one position
            without moving...we should move and not practice observing the pain? I
            do know that with practice..I got better and better at observing the
            pain and watching it come and go...and one time actually "think" it
            away..like self hypnosis...but during meditation retreat..I passed out
            from trying to "observe" the pain..I was hyperventilating to be able
            to keep in the locked position we were told to keep...and I was the
            only one who was going to move after 2 hours and did not want to be
            the one..result I passed out and they took me to ER..so still confused
            on the pain issue..
            >
            > Grace
            >
            Working with intense pain - Ram Dass

            "What I've learned from all this is what a delicate
            game it is to work with intense pain. Like all
            the experiences of an incarnation, pain has to be
            experienced fully by the Ego in order to be an
            effective learning experience for the Soul, but
            plunging in like that locks you into the pain.
            The only solution is to be on two planes at once:
            you have to enter the pain fully, and yet be in
            the Soul level at the same time. That's fierce?
            You feel the full intensity of the pain, and at the
            same time you transcend it by being in the Witness state.
            Pain demands that you establish yourself
            simultaneously in Ego and Soul. What an incredible
            teacher it is."

            From: Still Here by Ram Dass
          • Grace Yllana
            Thanks...that makes more sense to me now...whether I will ever get to the 2 plane state..I don t know..hopefully it happens with practice. Grace
            Message 5 of 17 , Jul 16, 2007
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              Thanks...that makes more sense to me now...whether I will ever get to the 2 plane state..I don't know..hopefully it happens with practice.

              Grace

              medit8ionsociety <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
              --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com, Grace Yllana
              <yllanagr@.. .> wrote:
              >
              > Does that mean that when the teacher...says locked in one position
              without moving...we should move and not practice observing the pain? I
              do know that with practice..I got better and better at observing the
              pain and watching it come and go...and one time actually "think" it
              away..like self hypnosis...but during meditation retreat..I passed out
              from trying to "observe" the pain..I was hyperventilating to be able
              to keep in the locked position we were told to keep...and I was the
              only one who was going to move after 2 hours and did not want to be
              the one..result I passed out and they took me to ER..so still confused
              on the pain issue..
              >
              > Grace
              >
              Working with intense pain - Ram Dass

              "What I've learned from all this is what a delicate
              game it is to work with intense pain. Like all
              the experiences of an incarnation, pain has to be
              experienced fully by the Ego in order to be an
              effective learning experience for the Soul, but
              plunging in like that locks you into the pain.
              The only solution is to be on two planes at once:
              you have to enter the pain fully, and yet be in
              the Soul level at the same time. That's fierce?
              You feel the full intensity of the pain, and at the
              same time you transcend it by being in the Witness state.
              Pain demands that you establish yourself
              simultaneously in Ego and Soul. What an incredible
              teacher it is."

              From: Still Here by Ram Dass



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            • sean tremblay
              The Idea of observing the pain is restricted to the level of minor discomfort. IF pain is continual and extreme that is an indication that there is something
              Message 6 of 17 , Jul 16, 2007
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                The Idea of observing the pain is restricted to the level of minor discomfort. IF pain is continual and extreme that is an indication that there is something wrong biologicaly, remember there is a difference in transending suffering and enduring it.  The practice of Hatha Yoga is to create a mind body connection through fittness and strength as well as flexibility the true purpose of this yoga is to prepare the body for meditation, it frees the mind from the aches and pains a healthy body enables the meditator to focus on meditation rather than getting beyond pain.  In my career I have had to push many physical limits, mentaly override physical pain and injury to achieve a certain goal. The mind can be trained to do this easy enough the threshold for pain increases with exposure BUT this is the extreme and should be reserved for extremes.
                As grandpa Harvey always told me
                "Bull strength and ignorence will only get you so far"

                Grace Yllana <yllanagr@...> wrote:
                Does that mean that when the teacher...says locked in one position without moving...we should move and not practice observing the pain? I do know that with practice..I got better and better at observing the pain and watching it come and go...and one time actually "think" it away..like self hypnosis...but during meditation retreat..I passed out from trying to "observe" the pain..I was hyperventilating to be able to keep in the locked position we were told to keep...and I was the only one who was going to move after 2 hours and did not want to be the one..result I passed out and they took me to ER..so still confused on the pain issue..

                Grace

                sean tremblay <bethjams9@yahoo. com> wrote:
                When I was in the Army I used to go by the philosophy that "Pain is weakness leaving the body" after having back surgery my wife who's an RN and yoga instructor reminded me "No Sean pain is an indication that something is wrong!"
                She's smarter than me!

                Grace Yllana <yllanagr@yahoo. com> wrote:
                Hello all...I'm confused about the pain issue...I heard that part of meditation is to be able to "observe" pain, discomforts and other sensations.. .and realize they have a shelf life..or are temporary... etc...what is the word on pain..not from arthritis or any ailment...the pain and discomfort that sitting in one position for a long time produce??

                Grace Yllana

                Daniel Bonekeeper <bonekeeper@gmail. com> wrote:
                Aideen, have you tried to sleep as much as you could, to the point where you just can't sleep anymore ? Try this. Sleep until you are fully rested and just can't sleep anymore, even if you tried. Then, try to meditate, and we'll see.

                About the pain, I can't tell much... personally I like to meditate in an reclinable armchair, very confortable, so it's easy to just forget the body.

                Daniel

                On 7/16/07, Aideen McKenna <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:
                Errata: I exercise regularly, not irregularly.  --Aideen
                 

                From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com] On Behalf Of Aideen McKenna
                Sent: July 16, 2007 9:17 AM
                To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting
                 
                Thanks to Sean & Bob.  Thanks also to the people who responded to Ben's post, because what they said reminded me that here are other ways of meditating besides sitting on a zafu.
                The cause of my painful joints is no mystery – it's arthritis, & there are times when it's more painful than other times.  I exercise irregularly & take long daily walks. 
                For the present, I'll make dish-washing my meditation & I'll position myself as Witness to the pain in my hands, which is less frightful than hip-joint pain.
                It's all good.
                Aideen
                 

                From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sean tremblay
                Sent: July 16, 2007 3:59 AM
                To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting
                 
                Aideen: you may need to see a doctor, it could be circulatory or even something in the nervous system.  In the mean time take a break from meditation.  Get plenty of rest and exercise especialy after dinner take a long walk if it's safe to do so.
                sean

                aideenmck <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:
                --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com , "aideenmck"
                <aideenmck@.. .> wrote:
                >
                > Lately I tend to fall asleep every time I sit down to meditate;
                it's a
                > constant battle to remain awake. Regarding this matter, I find 2
                > conflicting views in books & articles about meditation. One is to
                > accept that what's needed at that time is sleep, so if sleep is
                what
                > happens, so be it. The other is to regard the sleepiness as the
                egoic
                > mind, fearful of annihilation, setting up a hindrance.
                >
                > Another problem which arose about the same time as the sleepiness
                is
                > pain. Again, I read conflicting advice about whether or not to
                adjust
                > my position. Be one with the excruciating pain, or shift the
                foot,
                > leg, whatever.
                >
                > It's a bad patch I'm going through, I guess, because if it isn't
                one
                > thing, it's the other. I'd like to hear what anybody has to say
                about
                > it.
                >
                > Thanks,
                > Aideen
                >
                I'm still wondering whether anybody has words of wisdom about the
                problem of pain to which I referred. Does one go into the pain, as
                it were, remaining physically still? Or move to alleviate it?
                Lately, there's always leg pain when I sit down to meditate, so I
                could be fidgeting constantly. I don't know what to do about this.
                I'd appreciate some advice.
                Thanks,
                Aideen
                 
                 

                Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
                Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.



                --
                "If you are still asking for the result, then a very subtle effort will continuously be there. You will not be just sitting; you cannot just sit if there are any desires. The desire will be a subtle movement in you, and the movement will continue. You may be sitting like a stone or like a buddha, but still within the stone will be moving. Desire is movement."


                Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.


                Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.


                Got a little couch potato?
                Check out fun summer activities for kids.


                Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

              • sean tremblay
                Sure thats true but, bones break, cuts bleed, and the body is subject to physical inury regardless of the state ID, Ego, soul, Super Ego, planes of existence.
                Message 7 of 17 , Jul 16, 2007
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                  Sure thats true but, bones break, cuts bleed, and the body is subject to physical inury
                  regardless of the state ID, Ego, soul, Super Ego, planes of existence. A brocken bone needs mending you can check your inner self after the emergency room visit.
                  A man was shot with a poison arrow
                  many rushed to pull it out
                  Before they did the man wanted to know
                  who shot the arrow
                  and what was the poison
                  what kind of fethers made the fletching
                  The Buddha's lesson
                  Just pull out the arrow

                  Grace Yllana <yllanagr@...> wrote:
                  Thanks...that makes more sense to me now...whether I will ever get to the 2 plane state..I don't know..hopefully it happens with practice.

                  Grace

                  medit8ionsociety <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com> wrote:
                  --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com, Grace Yllana
                  <yllanagr@.. .> wrote:
                  >
                  > Does that mean that when the teacher...says locked in one position
                  without moving...we should move and not practice observing the pain? I
                  do know that with practice..I got better and better at observing the
                  pain and watching it come and go...and one time actually "think" it
                  away..like self hypnosis...but during meditation retreat..I passed out
                  from trying to "observe" the pain..I was hyperventilating to be able
                  to keep in the locked position we were told to keep...and I was the
                  only one who was going to move after 2 hours and did not want to be
                  the one..result I passed out and they took me to ER..so still confused
                  on the pain issue..
                  >
                  > Grace
                  >
                  Working with intense pain - Ram Dass

                  "What I've learned from all this is what a delicate
                  game it is to work with intense pain. Like all
                  the experiences of an incarnation, pain has to be
                  experienced fully by the Ego in order to be an
                  effective learning experience for the Soul, but
                  plunging in like that locks you into the pain.
                  The only solution is to be on two planes at once:
                  you have to enter the pain fully, and yet be in
                  the Soul level at the same time. That's fierce?
                  You feel the full intensity of the pain, and at the
                  same time you transcend it by being in the Witness state.
                  Pain demands that you establish yourself
                  simultaneously in Ego and Soul. What an incredible
                  teacher it is."

                  From: Still Here by Ram Dass



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