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Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting

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  • Daniel Bonekeeper
    Aideen, have you tried to sleep as much as you could, to the point where you just can t sleep anymore ? Try this. Sleep until you are fully rested and just
    Message 1 of 17 , Jul 16, 2007
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      Aideen, have you tried to sleep as much as you could, to the point where you just can't sleep anymore ? Try this. Sleep until you are fully rested and just can't sleep anymore, even if you tried. Then, try to meditate, and we'll see.

      About the pain, I can't tell much... personally I like to meditate in an reclinable armchair, very confortable, so it's easy to just forget the body.

      Daniel

      On 7/16/07, Aideen McKenna <aideenmck@...> wrote:

      Errata: I exercise regularly, not irregularly.  --Aideen

       


      From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogro ups.com] On Behalf Of Aideen McKenna
      Sent: July 16, 2007 9:17 AM
      To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting

       

      Thanks to Sean & Bob.  Thanks also to the people who responded to Ben's post, because what they said reminded me that here are other ways of meditating besides sitting on a zafu.

      The cause of my painful joints is no mystery – it's arthritis, & there are times when it's more painful than other times.  I exercise irregularly & take long daily walks. 

      For the present, I'll make dish-washing my meditation & I'll position myself as Witness to the pain in my hands, which is less frightful than hip-joint pain.

      It's all good.

      Aideen

       


      From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sean tremblay
      Sent: July 16, 2007 3:59 AM
      To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting

       

      Aideen: you may need to see a doctor, it could be circulatory or even something in the nervous system.  In the mean time take a break from meditation.  Get plenty of rest and exercise especialy after dinner take a long walk if it's safe to do so.

      sean

      aideenmck <aideenmck@...> wrote:

      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com , "aideenmck"
      <aideenmck@...> wrote:
      >
      > Lately I tend to fall asleep every time I sit down to meditate;
      it's a
      > constant battle to remain awake. Regarding this matter, I find 2
      > conflicting views in books & articles about meditation. One is to
      > accept that what's needed at that time is sleep, so if sleep is
      what
      > happens, so be it. The other is to regard the sleepiness as the
      egoic
      > mind, fearful of annihilation, setting up a hindrance.
      >
      > Another problem which arose about the same time as the sleepiness
      is
      > pain. Again, I read conflicting advice about whether or not to
      adjust
      > my position. Be one with the excruciating pain, or shift the
      foot,
      > leg, whatever.
      >
      > It's a bad patch I'm going through, I guess, because if it isn't
      one
      > thing, it's the other. I'd like to hear what anybody has to say
      about
      > it.
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Aideen
      >
      I'm still wondering whether anybody has words of wisdom about the
      problem of pain to which I referred. Does one go into the pain, as
      it were, remaining physically still? Or move to alleviate it?
      Lately, there's always leg pain when I sit down to meditate, so I
      could be fidgeting constantly. I don't know what to do about this.
      I'd appreciate some advice.
      Thanks,
      Aideen

       

       


      Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
      Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.




      --
      "If you are still asking for the result, then a very subtle effort will continuously be there. You will not be just sitting; you cannot just sit if there are any desires. The desire will be a subtle movement in you, and the movement will continue. You may be sitting like a stone or like a buddha, but still within the stone will be moving. Desire is movement."
    • Grace Yllana
      Hello all...I m confused about the pain issue...I heard that part of meditation is to be able to observe pain, discomforts and other sensations...and realize
      Message 2 of 17 , Jul 16, 2007
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        Hello all...I'm confused about the pain issue...I heard that part of meditation is to be able to "observe" pain, discomforts and other sensations...and realize they have a shelf life..or are temporary...etc...what is the word on pain..not from arthritis or any ailment...the pain and discomfort that sitting in one position for a long time produce??

        Grace Yllana

        Daniel Bonekeeper <bonekeeper@...> wrote:
        Aideen, have you tried to sleep as much as you could, to the point where you just can't sleep anymore ? Try this. Sleep until you are fully rested and just can't sleep anymore, even if you tried. Then, try to meditate, and we'll see.

        About the pain, I can't tell much... personally I like to meditate in an reclinable armchair, very confortable, so it's easy to just forget the body.

        Daniel

        On 7/16/07, Aideen McKenna <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:
        Errata: I exercise regularly, not irregularly.  --Aideen
         

        From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com] On Behalf Of Aideen McKenna
        Sent: July 16, 2007 9:17 AM
        To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting
         
        Thanks to Sean & Bob.  Thanks also to the people who responded to Ben's post, because what they said reminded me that here are other ways of meditating besides sitting on a zafu.
        The cause of my painful joints is no mystery – it's arthritis, & there are times when it's more painful than other times.  I exercise irregularly & take long daily walks. 
        For the present, I'll make dish-washing my meditation & I'll position myself as Witness to the pain in my hands, which is less frightful than hip-joint pain.
        It's all good.
        Aideen
         

        From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sean tremblay
        Sent: July 16, 2007 3:59 AM
        To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting
         
        Aideen: you may need to see a doctor, it could be circulatory or even something in the nervous system.  In the mean time take a break from meditation.  Get plenty of rest and exercise especialy after dinner take a long walk if it's safe to do so.
        sean

        aideenmck <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:
        --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com , "aideenmck"
        <aideenmck@.. .> wrote:
        >
        > Lately I tend to fall asleep every time I sit down to meditate;
        it's a
        > constant battle to remain awake. Regarding this matter, I find 2
        > conflicting views in books & articles about meditation. One is to
        > accept that what's needed at that time is sleep, so if sleep is
        what
        > happens, so be it. The other is to regard the sleepiness as the
        egoic
        > mind, fearful of annihilation, setting up a hindrance.
        >
        > Another problem which arose about the same time as the sleepiness
        is
        > pain. Again, I read conflicting advice about whether or not to
        adjust
        > my position. Be one with the excruciating pain, or shift the
        foot,
        > leg, whatever.
        >
        > It's a bad patch I'm going through, I guess, because if it isn't
        one
        > thing, it's the other. I'd like to hear what anybody has to say
        about
        > it.
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Aideen
        >
        I'm still wondering whether anybody has words of wisdom about the
        problem of pain to which I referred. Does one go into the pain, as
        it were, remaining physically still? Or move to alleviate it?
        Lately, there's always leg pain when I sit down to meditate, so I
        could be fidgeting constantly. I don't know what to do about this.
        I'd appreciate some advice.
        Thanks,
        Aideen
         
         

        Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
        Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.



        --
        "If you are still asking for the result, then a very subtle effort will continuously be there. You will not be just sitting; you cannot just sit if there are any desires. The desire will be a subtle movement in you, and the movement will continue. You may be sitting like a stone or like a buddha, but still within the stone will be moving. Desire is movement."


        Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

      • Aideen McKenna
        Exactly. That s what confuses me, too. ---Aideen _____ From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com]
        Message 3 of 17 , Jul 16, 2007
        • 0 Attachment

          Exactly.  That’s what confuses me, too.  ---Aideen

           

           


          From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com [mailto: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Grace Yllana
          Sent: July 16, 2007 10:52 AM
          To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America ] Re: Sleepy & Hurting

           

          Hello all...I'm confused about the pain issue...I heard that part of meditation is to be able to "observe" pain, discomforts and other sensations.. .and realize they have a shelf life..or are temporary... etc...what is the word on pain..not from arthritis or any ailment...the pain and discomfort that sitting in one position for a long time produce??

          Grace Yllana

          Daniel Bonekeeper <bonekeeper@gmail. com> wrote:

          Aideen, have you tried to sleep as much as you could, to the point where you just can't sleep anymore ? Try this. Sleep until you are fully rested and just can't sleep anymore, even if you tried. Then, try to meditate, and we'll see.

          About the pain, I can't tell much... personally I like to meditate in an reclinable armchair, very confortable, so it's easy to just forget the body.

          Daniel

          On 7/16/07, Aideen McKenna <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:

          Errata: I exercise regularly, not irregularly.  --Aideen

           


          From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com] On Behalf Of Aideen McKenna
          Sent: July 16, 2007 9:17 AM
          To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [Meditation Society of America ] Re: Sleepy & Hurting

           

          Thanks to Sean & Bob.  Thanks also to the people who responded to Ben's post, because what they said reminded me that here are other ways of meditating besides sitting on a zafu.

          The cause of my painful joints is no mystery – it's arthritis, & there are times when it's more painful than other times.  I exercise irregularly & take long daily walks. 

          For the present, I'll make dish-washing my meditation & I'll position myself as Witness to the pain in my hands, which is less frightful than hip-joint pain.

          It's all good.

          Aideen

           


          From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sean tremblay
          Sent: July 16, 2007 3:59 AM
          To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America ] Re: Sleepy & Hurting

           

          Aideen: you may need to see a doctor, it could be circulatory or even something in the nervous system.  In the mean time take a break from meditation.  Get plenty of rest and exercise especialy after dinner take a long walk if it's safe to do so.

          sean

          aideenmck <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:

          --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com , "aideenmck"
          <aideenmck@.. .> wrote:
          >
          > Lately I tend to fall asleep every time I sit down to meditate;
          it's a
          > constant battle to remain awake. Regarding this matter, I find 2
          > conflicting views in books & articles about meditation. One is to
          > accept that what's needed at that time is sleep, so if sleep is
          what
          > happens, so be it. The other is to regard the sleepiness as the
          egoic
          > mind, fearful of annihilation, setting up a hindrance.
          >
          > Another problem which arose about the same time as the sleepiness
          is
          > pain. Again, I read conflicting advice about whether or not to
          adjust
          > my position. Be one with the excruciating pain, or shift the
          foot,
          > leg, whatever.
          >
          > It's a bad patch I'm going through, I guess, because if it isn't
          one
          > thing, it's the other. I'd like to hear what anybody has to say
          about
          > it.
          >
          > Thanks,
          > Aideen
          >
          I'm still wondering whether anybody has words of wisdom about the
          problem of pain to which I referred. Does one go into the pain, as
          it were, remaining physically still? Or move to alleviate it?
          Lately, there's always leg pain when I sit down to meditate, so I
          could be fidgeting constantly. I don't know what to do about this.
          I'd appreciate some advice.
          Thanks,
          Aideen

           

           


          Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
          Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.




          --
          "If you are still asking for the result, then a very subtle effort will continuously be there. You will not be just sitting; you cannot just sit if there are any desires. The desire will be a subtle movement in you, and the movement will continue. You may be sitting like a stone or like a buddha, but still within the stone will be moving. Desire is movement."

           

           


          Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

        • sean tremblay
          When I was in the Army I used to go by the philosophy that Pain is weakness leaving the body after having back surgery my wife who s an RN and yoga
          Message 4 of 17 , Jul 16, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            When I was in the Army I used to go by the philosophy that "Pain is weakness leaving the body" after having back surgery my wife who's an RN and yoga instructor reminded me "No Sean pain is an indication that something is wrong!"
            She's smarter than me!

            Grace Yllana <yllanagr@...> wrote:
            Hello all...I'm confused about the pain issue...I heard that part of meditation is to be able to "observe" pain, discomforts and other sensations.. .and realize they have a shelf life..or are temporary... etc...what is the word on pain..not from arthritis or any ailment...the pain and discomfort that sitting in one position for a long time produce??

            Grace Yllana

            Daniel Bonekeeper <bonekeeper@gmail. com> wrote:
            Aideen, have you tried to sleep as much as you could, to the point where you just can't sleep anymore ? Try this. Sleep until you are fully rested and just can't sleep anymore, even if you tried. Then, try to meditate, and we'll see.

            About the pain, I can't tell much... personally I like to meditate in an reclinable armchair, very confortable, so it's easy to just forget the body.

            Daniel

            On 7/16/07, Aideen McKenna <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:
            Errata: I exercise regularly, not irregularly.  --Aideen
             

            From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com] On Behalf Of Aideen McKenna
            Sent: July 16, 2007 9:17 AM
            To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting
             
            Thanks to Sean & Bob.  Thanks also to the people who responded to Ben's post, because what they said reminded me that here are other ways of meditating besides sitting on a zafu.
            The cause of my painful joints is no mystery – it's arthritis, & there are times when it's more painful than other times.  I exercise irregularly & take long daily walks. 
            For the present, I'll make dish-washing my meditation & I'll position myself as Witness to the pain in my hands, which is less frightful than hip-joint pain.
            It's all good.
            Aideen
             

            From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sean tremblay
            Sent: July 16, 2007 3:59 AM
            To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting
             
            Aideen: you may need to see a doctor, it could be circulatory or even something in the nervous system.  In the mean time take a break from meditation.  Get plenty of rest and exercise especialy after dinner take a long walk if it's safe to do so.
            sean

            aideenmck <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:
            --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com , "aideenmck"
            <aideenmck@.. .> wrote:
            >
            > Lately I tend to fall asleep every time I sit down to meditate;
            it's a
            > constant battle to remain awake. Regarding this matter, I find 2
            > conflicting views in books & articles about meditation. One is to
            > accept that what's needed at that time is sleep, so if sleep is
            what
            > happens, so be it. The other is to regard the sleepiness as the
            egoic
            > mind, fearful of annihilation, setting up a hindrance.
            >
            > Another problem which arose about the same time as the sleepiness
            is
            > pain. Again, I read conflicting advice about whether or not to
            adjust
            > my position. Be one with the excruciating pain, or shift the
            foot,
            > leg, whatever.
            >
            > It's a bad patch I'm going through, I guess, because if it isn't
            one
            > thing, it's the other. I'd like to hear what anybody has to say
            about
            > it.
            >
            > Thanks,
            > Aideen
            >
            I'm still wondering whether anybody has words of wisdom about the
            problem of pain to which I referred. Does one go into the pain, as
            it were, remaining physically still? Or move to alleviate it?
            Lately, there's always leg pain when I sit down to meditate, so I
            could be fidgeting constantly. I don't know what to do about this.
            I'd appreciate some advice.
            Thanks,
            Aideen
             
             

            Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
            Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.



            --
            "If you are still asking for the result, then a very subtle effort will continuously be there. You will not be just sitting; you cannot just sit if there are any desires. The desire will be a subtle movement in you, and the movement will continue. You may be sitting like a stone or like a buddha, but still within the stone will be moving. Desire is movement."


            Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.


            Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

          • Grace Yllana
            Does that mean that when the teacher...says locked in one position without moving...we should move and not practice observing the pain? I do know that with
            Message 5 of 17 , Jul 16, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Does that mean that when the teacher...says locked in one position without moving...we should move and not practice observing the pain? I do know that with practice..I got better and better at observing the pain and watching it come and go...and one time actually "think" it away..like self hypnosis...but during meditation retreat..I passed out from trying to "observe" the pain..I was hyperventilating to be able to keep in the locked position we were told to keep...and I was the only one who was going to move after 2 hours and did not want to be the one..result I passed out and they took me to ER..so still confused on the pain issue..

              Grace

              sean tremblay <bethjams9@...> wrote:
              When I was in the Army I used to go by the philosophy that "Pain is weakness leaving the body" after having back surgery my wife who's an RN and yoga instructor reminded me "No Sean pain is an indication that something is wrong!"
              She's smarter than me!

              Grace Yllana <yllanagr@yahoo. com> wrote:
              Hello all...I'm confused about the pain issue...I heard that part of meditation is to be able to "observe" pain, discomforts and other sensations.. .and realize they have a shelf life..or are temporary... etc...what is the word on pain..not from arthritis or any ailment...the pain and discomfort that sitting in one position for a long time produce??

              Grace Yllana

              Daniel Bonekeeper <bonekeeper@gmail. com> wrote:
              Aideen, have you tried to sleep as much as you could, to the point where you just can't sleep anymore ? Try this. Sleep until you are fully rested and just can't sleep anymore, even if you tried. Then, try to meditate, and we'll see.

              About the pain, I can't tell much... personally I like to meditate in an reclinable armchair, very confortable, so it's easy to just forget the body.

              Daniel

              On 7/16/07, Aideen McKenna <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:
              Errata: I exercise regularly, not irregularly.  --Aideen
               

              From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com] On Behalf Of Aideen McKenna
              Sent: July 16, 2007 9:17 AM
              To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting
               
              Thanks to Sean & Bob.  Thanks also to the people who responded to Ben's post, because what they said reminded me that here are other ways of meditating besides sitting on a zafu.
              The cause of my painful joints is no mystery – it's arthritis, & there are times when it's more painful than other times.  I exercise irregularly & take long daily walks. 
              For the present, I'll make dish-washing my meditation & I'll position myself as Witness to the pain in my hands, which is less frightful than hip-joint pain.
              It's all good.
              Aideen
               

              From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sean tremblay
              Sent: July 16, 2007 3:59 AM
              To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting
               
              Aideen: you may need to see a doctor, it could be circulatory or even something in the nervous system.  In the mean time take a break from meditation.  Get plenty of rest and exercise especialy after dinner take a long walk if it's safe to do so.
              sean

              aideenmck <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:
              --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com , "aideenmck"
              <aideenmck@.. .> wrote:
              >
              > Lately I tend to fall asleep every time I sit down to meditate;
              it's a
              > constant battle to remain awake. Regarding this matter, I find 2
              > conflicting views in books & articles about meditation. One is to
              > accept that what's needed at that time is sleep, so if sleep is
              what
              > happens, so be it. The other is to regard the sleepiness as the
              egoic
              > mind, fearful of annihilation, setting up a hindrance.
              >
              > Another problem which arose about the same time as the sleepiness
              is
              > pain. Again, I read conflicting advice about whether or not to
              adjust
              > my position. Be one with the excruciating pain, or shift the
              foot,
              > leg, whatever.
              >
              > It's a bad patch I'm going through, I guess, because if it isn't
              one
              > thing, it's the other. I'd like to hear what anybody has to say
              about
              > it.
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Aideen
              >
              I'm still wondering whether anybody has words of wisdom about the
              problem of pain to which I referred. Does one go into the pain, as
              it were, remaining physically still? Or move to alleviate it?
              Lately, there's always leg pain when I sit down to meditate, so I
              could be fidgeting constantly. I don't know what to do about this.
              I'd appreciate some advice.
              Thanks,
              Aideen
               
               

              Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
              Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.



              --
              "If you are still asking for the result, then a very subtle effort will continuously be there. You will not be just sitting; you cannot just sit if there are any desires. The desire will be a subtle movement in you, and the movement will continue. You may be sitting like a stone or like a buddha, but still within the stone will be moving. Desire is movement."


              Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.


              Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.


              Got a little couch potato?
              Check out fun summer activities for kids.

            • medit8ionsociety
              ... without moving...we should move and not practice observing the pain? I do know that with practice..I got better and better at observing the pain and
              Message 6 of 17 , Jul 16, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Grace Yllana
                <yllanagr@...> wrote:
                >
                > Does that mean that when the teacher...says locked in one position
                without moving...we should move and not practice observing the pain? I
                do know that with practice..I got better and better at observing the
                pain and watching it come and go...and one time actually "think" it
                away..like self hypnosis...but during meditation retreat..I passed out
                from trying to "observe" the pain..I was hyperventilating to be able
                to keep in the locked position we were told to keep...and I was the
                only one who was going to move after 2 hours and did not want to be
                the one..result I passed out and they took me to ER..so still confused
                on the pain issue..
                >
                > Grace
                >
                Working with intense pain - Ram Dass

                "What I've learned from all this is what a delicate
                game it is to work with intense pain. Like all
                the experiences of an incarnation, pain has to be
                experienced fully by the Ego in order to be an
                effective learning experience for the Soul, but
                plunging in like that locks you into the pain.
                The only solution is to be on two planes at once:
                you have to enter the pain fully, and yet be in
                the Soul level at the same time. That's fierce?
                You feel the full intensity of the pain, and at the
                same time you transcend it by being in the Witness state.
                Pain demands that you establish yourself
                simultaneously in Ego and Soul. What an incredible
                teacher it is."

                From: Still Here by Ram Dass
              • Grace Yllana
                Thanks...that makes more sense to me now...whether I will ever get to the 2 plane state..I don t know..hopefully it happens with practice. Grace
                Message 7 of 17 , Jul 16, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Thanks...that makes more sense to me now...whether I will ever get to the 2 plane state..I don't know..hopefully it happens with practice.

                  Grace

                  medit8ionsociety <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                  --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com, Grace Yllana
                  <yllanagr@.. .> wrote:
                  >
                  > Does that mean that when the teacher...says locked in one position
                  without moving...we should move and not practice observing the pain? I
                  do know that with practice..I got better and better at observing the
                  pain and watching it come and go...and one time actually "think" it
                  away..like self hypnosis...but during meditation retreat..I passed out
                  from trying to "observe" the pain..I was hyperventilating to be able
                  to keep in the locked position we were told to keep...and I was the
                  only one who was going to move after 2 hours and did not want to be
                  the one..result I passed out and they took me to ER..so still confused
                  on the pain issue..
                  >
                  > Grace
                  >
                  Working with intense pain - Ram Dass

                  "What I've learned from all this is what a delicate
                  game it is to work with intense pain. Like all
                  the experiences of an incarnation, pain has to be
                  experienced fully by the Ego in order to be an
                  effective learning experience for the Soul, but
                  plunging in like that locks you into the pain.
                  The only solution is to be on two planes at once:
                  you have to enter the pain fully, and yet be in
                  the Soul level at the same time. That's fierce?
                  You feel the full intensity of the pain, and at the
                  same time you transcend it by being in the Witness state.
                  Pain demands that you establish yourself
                  simultaneously in Ego and Soul. What an incredible
                  teacher it is."

                  From: Still Here by Ram Dass



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                • sean tremblay
                  The Idea of observing the pain is restricted to the level of minor discomfort. IF pain is continual and extreme that is an indication that there is something
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jul 16, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    The Idea of observing the pain is restricted to the level of minor discomfort. IF pain is continual and extreme that is an indication that there is something wrong biologicaly, remember there is a difference in transending suffering and enduring it.  The practice of Hatha Yoga is to create a mind body connection through fittness and strength as well as flexibility the true purpose of this yoga is to prepare the body for meditation, it frees the mind from the aches and pains a healthy body enables the meditator to focus on meditation rather than getting beyond pain.  In my career I have had to push many physical limits, mentaly override physical pain and injury to achieve a certain goal. The mind can be trained to do this easy enough the threshold for pain increases with exposure BUT this is the extreme and should be reserved for extremes.
                    As grandpa Harvey always told me
                    "Bull strength and ignorence will only get you so far"

                    Grace Yllana <yllanagr@...> wrote:
                    Does that mean that when the teacher...says locked in one position without moving...we should move and not practice observing the pain? I do know that with practice..I got better and better at observing the pain and watching it come and go...and one time actually "think" it away..like self hypnosis...but during meditation retreat..I passed out from trying to "observe" the pain..I was hyperventilating to be able to keep in the locked position we were told to keep...and I was the only one who was going to move after 2 hours and did not want to be the one..result I passed out and they took me to ER..so still confused on the pain issue..

                    Grace

                    sean tremblay <bethjams9@yahoo. com> wrote:
                    When I was in the Army I used to go by the philosophy that "Pain is weakness leaving the body" after having back surgery my wife who's an RN and yoga instructor reminded me "No Sean pain is an indication that something is wrong!"
                    She's smarter than me!

                    Grace Yllana <yllanagr@yahoo. com> wrote:
                    Hello all...I'm confused about the pain issue...I heard that part of meditation is to be able to "observe" pain, discomforts and other sensations.. .and realize they have a shelf life..or are temporary... etc...what is the word on pain..not from arthritis or any ailment...the pain and discomfort that sitting in one position for a long time produce??

                    Grace Yllana

                    Daniel Bonekeeper <bonekeeper@gmail. com> wrote:
                    Aideen, have you tried to sleep as much as you could, to the point where you just can't sleep anymore ? Try this. Sleep until you are fully rested and just can't sleep anymore, even if you tried. Then, try to meditate, and we'll see.

                    About the pain, I can't tell much... personally I like to meditate in an reclinable armchair, very confortable, so it's easy to just forget the body.

                    Daniel

                    On 7/16/07, Aideen McKenna <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:
                    Errata: I exercise regularly, not irregularly.  --Aideen
                     

                    From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com] On Behalf Of Aideen McKenna
                    Sent: July 16, 2007 9:17 AM
                    To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting
                     
                    Thanks to Sean & Bob.  Thanks also to the people who responded to Ben's post, because what they said reminded me that here are other ways of meditating besides sitting on a zafu.
                    The cause of my painful joints is no mystery – it's arthritis, & there are times when it's more painful than other times.  I exercise irregularly & take long daily walks. 
                    For the present, I'll make dish-washing my meditation & I'll position myself as Witness to the pain in my hands, which is less frightful than hip-joint pain.
                    It's all good.
                    Aideen
                     

                    From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sean tremblay
                    Sent: July 16, 2007 3:59 AM
                    To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting
                     
                    Aideen: you may need to see a doctor, it could be circulatory or even something in the nervous system.  In the mean time take a break from meditation.  Get plenty of rest and exercise especialy after dinner take a long walk if it's safe to do so.
                    sean

                    aideenmck <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:
                    --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com , "aideenmck"
                    <aideenmck@.. .> wrote:
                    >
                    > Lately I tend to fall asleep every time I sit down to meditate;
                    it's a
                    > constant battle to remain awake. Regarding this matter, I find 2
                    > conflicting views in books & articles about meditation. One is to
                    > accept that what's needed at that time is sleep, so if sleep is
                    what
                    > happens, so be it. The other is to regard the sleepiness as the
                    egoic
                    > mind, fearful of annihilation, setting up a hindrance.
                    >
                    > Another problem which arose about the same time as the sleepiness
                    is
                    > pain. Again, I read conflicting advice about whether or not to
                    adjust
                    > my position. Be one with the excruciating pain, or shift the
                    foot,
                    > leg, whatever.
                    >
                    > It's a bad patch I'm going through, I guess, because if it isn't
                    one
                    > thing, it's the other. I'd like to hear what anybody has to say
                    about
                    > it.
                    >
                    > Thanks,
                    > Aideen
                    >
                    I'm still wondering whether anybody has words of wisdom about the
                    problem of pain to which I referred. Does one go into the pain, as
                    it were, remaining physically still? Or move to alleviate it?
                    Lately, there's always leg pain when I sit down to meditate, so I
                    could be fidgeting constantly. I don't know what to do about this.
                    I'd appreciate some advice.
                    Thanks,
                    Aideen
                     
                     

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                    --
                    "If you are still asking for the result, then a very subtle effort will continuously be there. You will not be just sitting; you cannot just sit if there are any desires. The desire will be a subtle movement in you, and the movement will continue. You may be sitting like a stone or like a buddha, but still within the stone will be moving. Desire is movement."


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                  • sean tremblay
                    Sure thats true but, bones break, cuts bleed, and the body is subject to physical inury regardless of the state ID, Ego, soul, Super Ego, planes of existence.
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jul 16, 2007
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                      Sure thats true but, bones break, cuts bleed, and the body is subject to physical inury
                      regardless of the state ID, Ego, soul, Super Ego, planes of existence. A brocken bone needs mending you can check your inner self after the emergency room visit.
                      A man was shot with a poison arrow
                      many rushed to pull it out
                      Before they did the man wanted to know
                      who shot the arrow
                      and what was the poison
                      what kind of fethers made the fletching
                      The Buddha's lesson
                      Just pull out the arrow

                      Grace Yllana <yllanagr@...> wrote:
                      Thanks...that makes more sense to me now...whether I will ever get to the 2 plane state..I don't know..hopefully it happens with practice.

                      Grace

                      medit8ionsociety <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com> wrote:
                      --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com, Grace Yllana
                      <yllanagr@.. .> wrote:
                      >
                      > Does that mean that when the teacher...says locked in one position
                      without moving...we should move and not practice observing the pain? I
                      do know that with practice..I got better and better at observing the
                      pain and watching it come and go...and one time actually "think" it
                      away..like self hypnosis...but during meditation retreat..I passed out
                      from trying to "observe" the pain..I was hyperventilating to be able
                      to keep in the locked position we were told to keep...and I was the
                      only one who was going to move after 2 hours and did not want to be
                      the one..result I passed out and they took me to ER..so still confused
                      on the pain issue..
                      >
                      > Grace
                      >
                      Working with intense pain - Ram Dass

                      "What I've learned from all this is what a delicate
                      game it is to work with intense pain. Like all
                      the experiences of an incarnation, pain has to be
                      experienced fully by the Ego in order to be an
                      effective learning experience for the Soul, but
                      plunging in like that locks you into the pain.
                      The only solution is to be on two planes at once:
                      you have to enter the pain fully, and yet be in
                      the Soul level at the same time. That's fierce?
                      You feel the full intensity of the pain, and at the
                      same time you transcend it by being in the Witness state.
                      Pain demands that you establish yourself
                      simultaneously in Ego and Soul. What an incredible
                      teacher it is."

                      From: Still Here by Ram Dass



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