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Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting

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  • sean tremblay
    Aideen: you may need to see a doctor, it could be circulatory or even something in the nervous system. In the mean time take a break from meditation. Get
    Message 1 of 17 , Jul 16 3:59 AM
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      Aideen: you may need to see a doctor, it could be circulatory or even something in the nervous system.  In the mean time take a break from meditation.  Get plenty of rest and exercise especialy after dinner take a long walk if it's safe to do so.
      sean

      aideenmck <aideenmck@...> wrote:
      --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com, "aideenmck"
      <aideenmck@. ..> wrote:
      >
      > Lately I tend to fall asleep every time I sit down to meditate;
      it's a
      > constant battle to remain awake. Regarding this matter, I find 2
      > conflicting views in books & articles about meditation. One is to
      > accept that what's needed at that time is sleep, so if sleep is
      what
      > happens, so be it. The other is to regard the sleepiness as the
      egoic
      > mind, fearful of annihilation, setting up a hindrance.
      >
      > Another problem which arose about the same time as the sleepiness
      is
      > pain. Again, I read conflicting advice about whether or not to
      adjust
      > my position. Be one with the excruciating pain, or shift the
      foot,
      > leg, whatever.
      >
      > It's a bad patch I'm going through, I guess, because if it isn't
      one
      > thing, it's the other. I'd like to hear what anybody has to say
      about
      > it.
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Aideen
      >
      I'm still wondering whether anybody has words of wisdom about the
      problem of pain to which I referred. Does one go into the pain, as
      it were, remaining physically still? Or move to alleviate it?
      Lately, there's always leg pain when I sit down to meditate, so I
      could be fidgeting constantly. I don't know what to do about this.
      I'd appreciate some advice.
      Thanks,
      Aideen



      Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
      Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

    • medit8ionsociety
      ... even something in the nervous system. In the mean time take a break from meditation. Get plenty of rest and exercise especialy after dinner take a long
      Message 2 of 17 , Jul 16 5:53 AM
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean tremblay
        <bethjams9@...> wrote:
        >
        > Aideen: you may need to see a doctor, it could be circulatory or
        even something in the nervous system. In the mean time take a break
        from meditation. Get plenty of rest and exercise especialy after
        dinner take a long walk if it's safe to do so.
        > sean
        >
        Dear Aideen,
        I totally agree with Sean's suggestion that you see
        your physician. Also, I do have several other things
        to add and that partially they can be found in the article
        on our web site titled "Visualization of Cellular Healing"
        (particularly about pain in part #8), as copied below and at
        http://www.meditationsociety.com/week29.html
        Additionally, I want to remind you that virtually everything
        that happens in your life can be a pointer to you to look
        within and analyze "Who is this happening to?". Not knowing
        this is the real pain in our heart. And when you are not
        enquiring into "Who am I?", simply silently
        witnessing your life as it takes place is what I
        suggest is the most beneficial (and truly meditative)
        thing you can do for your Self. Witness your life
        as it takes place in a detached manner. Your body
        is ever changing and sometimes there will be pain and at
        other times there will be good feelings. What will
        remain always available is to be attentive to what
        the senses receive and send out, what the emotions
        are feeling, and what thoughts are flying by. And do this
        without commenting in any way. Shut up the inner
        chatterer. By positioning your Self in the Witness mode,
        whether you are sitting in meditation or doing your
        income producing job, or any other action, you will have the
        potential to experience very insightful realizations.
        This will be true if you are going through pleasure
        or pain, sadness or joy,or any other of the dualities
        of life. The inner Witness is your real Self and
        knowing It without conditional reactivity to your mood
        swings, your thought patterns, or your physical
        sensation changes... frees you from the illusion
        that duality chains you to, and that is that
        you are this "separate from the rest of creation
        entity". This transcendent perspective is the
        key to freedom from the situation that most people
        find themselves in, and that can be described as one
        where they are constantly trying to fulfill a series
        of ever changing desires that will comfort their
        body, mind, and/or emotions. And they never do get
        fulfilled. One desire is simply replaced with another.
        Life then is a circle of frustrating suffering involved
        in chasing after one gold ring after another. But the
        person meditating with stability in their dispassionate
        awareness has an open the door to always being in a
        state that is evolving in consciousness, and is not
        suffering from trying to reactively feed the voracious
        desire appetite of a fearful ego. As the cliche goes
        "Nice work if you can get it!". In any event, I
        know that you are really trying to be a vehicle
        for all good to flow through you and I am sure
        that this will happen. Be patient and persevere.
        I wish you well.
        Peace and blessings,
        Bob

        Visualization of Cellular Healing
        When you go to a doctor, s/he prescribes a medication for you to take,
        or a treatment you will undergo, your body starts the healing process
        before the medicine is in your system or the exercise or surgical
        procedure has taken place. For most people, just seeing a doctor gives
        confidence that healing will occur. Depending on the patient's
        cultural background, this is true whether the physician is a
        neurosurgeon at the Mayo Clinic or a tribal witch doctor. This is
        attributable to an extraordinary healing ability of the body by a
        process known as the placebo effect. What happens is that healing
        starts when you believe it will occur. Your mind buys into it and your
        body makes it happen. The great physician and humanitarian, Dr. Albert
        Schweitzer, gives us this insight - "The witch doctor succeeds for the
        same reason all the rest of us (medical doctors) succeed. Each patient
        carries his own doctor inside himself. They come to us not knowing
        that truth. We are at our best when we give the doctor who resides
        within each patient a chance to go to work."

        Our body is a fantastic chemical factory that is capable of seemingly
        unbelievable things. For instance, there is the case of a 95-pound
        woman lifting up a two-ton car to save the life of her child who was
        trapped under its weight. This was due to a gigantic adrenaline
        release. As impressive a display of adaptability to a need this is,
        our body is capable of doing even more seemingly miraculous feats.
        Perhaps the most impressive of all is its' ability to heal itself - of
        anything!

        There are several methods dealing with visualizing healing
        meditatively at the cellular level. To begin any of them, use the
        position, breathing pattern, physical relaxing technique, and emptying
        of mental and emotional reactivity that you have found best prepares
        you to fill with the object of your meditation. Try each of these ways
        separately, and try combining them until your healing has occurred.
        This may take mere seconds, or decades, as has whatever happened to
        you that now needs a change back to wellness.

        1. In your minds eye, see aberrant or inflamed cells changing into
        healthy cells. If there is a damaged or corrupted area within the
        cells, visualize them changing and becoming free from injury. See your
        whole body becoming pure. Visualize yourself as perfectly healthy.

        2. There are cells within your body that act as protectors and
        actually attack and kill damaging invader cells. See these warrior
        cells destroy those cells that could cause you injury. See your whole
        body becoming pure. Visualize yourself as perfectly healthy.

        3. There are cells within your body that eat threatening cells.
        See them devour the harm causing structures. See your whole body
        becoming pure. Visualize yourself as perfectly healthy.

        4. Visualize groups of healthy cells combining to replace any
        damaged areas of your body. For instance, if you have suffered a
        broken bone, see the cells come together in healing, bonding together
        to reform a complete structure. Visualize the bone as perfectly healthy.

        5. Visualize healing energy filling you. The energy can be felt to
        originate from a higher power that gifts you with healing. See this
        holy energy filling and changing your cellular structure to a perfect
        condition. Watch as the specific organ, body system, or part heals.
        See your whole body becoming pure. Visualize yourself as perfectly
        healthy.

        6. Visualize yourself standing, sitting, or prostrating in front
        of your personal deity. See your deity heal you by touch. See your
        deity heal you by sending divine energy to you. See your deity end
        your suffering. See your whole body becoming pure. Visualize yourself
        as perfectly healthy.

        7. Get an anatomy book and study the body structure you want
        healing to take place in. Look at how the part appears when in a state
        of perfection. When doing a healing visualization meditation, see your
        body part as being in this state of perfection.

        8. If you are suffering from pain, see in your minds eye, as
        clearly as possible, the nerve endings that are in the specific area
        of your discomfort, or all of the nerve endings in your entire body.
        With every inhalation, feel and visualize healing air flowing from a
        higher power and enter you and fill your lungs. See your red blood
        cells absorb the air through the walls of your lungs and flow through
        your arteries spreading healing oxygen to every cell in your body.
        Witness the inflamed nerve endings become soothed and witness your
        body start to glow with wellbeing and serenity.

        Perhaps the most important suggestion of all is to sincerely want the
        healing to take place and believe that it will occur. The Meditation
        Society of America doesn't favor one religion over another, or even
        suggest that one has to believe in God at all for the benefits of
        meditation to help you, but we do sometimes quote from religious
        sources. In this case, we cite the Bible - Mark 11:24 "...what things
        ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall
        have them."

        This 2000-year-old statement is in perfect accord with the most
        cutting edge scientific and medical understanding of the 21st century.
        To quote Dr. Herbert Benson of the Harvard Medical School, "We know
        that belief can lead to healing or at least improvement in 50 percent
        to 90 percent of diseases, including asthma, angina pectoris, and skin
        rashes, many forms of pain, rheumatoid arthritis, congestive heart
        failure. They're all influenced by belief. We in medicine have made
        fun of belief by calling it the "placebo effect," or insisting that
        "It's all in your head." Yet, belief is one of the most powerful
        healing tools we have in our therapeutic arsenal."
      • Aideen McKenna
        Thanks to Sean & Bob. Thanks also to the people who responded to Ben s post, because what they said reminded me that here are other ways of meditating besides
        Message 3 of 17 , Jul 16 9:17 AM
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          Thanks to Sean & Bob.  Thanks also to the people who responded to Ben’s post, because what they said reminded me that here are other ways of meditating besides sitting on a zafu.

          The cause of my painful joints is no mystery – it’s arthritis, & there are times when it’s more painful than other times.  I exercise irregularly & take long daily walks. 

          For the present, I’ll make dish-washing my meditation & I’ll position myself as Witness to the pain in my hands, which is less frightful than hip-joint pain.

          It’s all good.

          Aideen

           


          From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com [mailto: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of sean tremblay
          Sent: July 16, 2007 3:59 AM
          To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America ] Re: Sleepy & Hurting

           

          Aideen: you may need to see a doctor, it could be circulatory or even something in the nervous system.  In the mean time take a break from meditation.  Get plenty of rest and exercise especialy after dinner take a long walk if it's safe to do so.

          sean

          aideenmck <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:

          --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com, "aideenmck"
          <aideenmck@. ..> wrote:
          >
          > Lately I tend to fall asleep every time I sit down to meditate;
          it's a
          > constant battle to remain awake. Regarding this matter, I find 2
          > conflicting views in books & articles about meditation. One is to
          > accept that what's needed at that time is sleep, so if sleep is
          what
          > happens, so be it. The other is to regard the sleepiness as the
          egoic
          > mind, fearful of annihilation, setting up a hindrance.
          >
          > Another problem which arose about the same time as the sleepiness
          is
          > pain. Again, I read conflicting advice about whether or not to
          adjust
          > my position. Be one with the excruciating pain, or shift the
          foot,
          > leg, whatever.
          >
          > It's a bad patch I'm going through, I guess, because if it isn't
          one
          > thing, it's the other. I'd like to hear what anybody has to say
          about
          > it.
          >
          > Thanks,
          > Aideen
          >
          I'm still wondering whether anybody has words of wisdom about the
          problem of pain to which I referred. Does one go into the pain, as
          it were, remaining physically still? Or move to alleviate it?
          Lately, there's always leg pain when I sit down to meditate, so I
          could be fidgeting constantly. I don't know what to do about this.
          I'd appreciate some advice.
          Thanks,
          Aideen

           

           


          Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
          Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

        • Aideen McKenna
          Errata: I exercise regularly, not irregularly. --Aideen _____ From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
          Message 4 of 17 , Jul 16 9:50 AM
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            Errata: I exercise regularly, not irregularly.  --Aideen

             


            From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com [mailto: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Aideen McKenna
            Sent: July 16, 2007 9:17 AM
            To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [Meditation Society of America ] Re: Sleepy & Hurting

             

            Thanks to Sean & Bob.  Thanks also to the people who responded to Ben’s post, because what they said reminded me that here are other ways of meditating besides sitting on a zafu.

            The cause of my painful joints is no mystery – it’s arthritis, & there are times when it’s more painful than other times.  I exercise irregularly & take long daily walks. 

            For the present, I’ll make dish-washing my meditation & I’ll position myself as Witness to the pain in my hands, which is less frightful than hip-joint pain.

            It’s all good.

            Aideen

             


            From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com ] On Behalf Of sean tremblay
            Sent: July 16, 2007 3:59 AM
            To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com
            Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America ] Re: Sleepy & Hurting

             

            Aideen: you may need to see a doctor, it could be circulatory or even something in the nervous system.  In the mean time take a break from meditation.  Get plenty of rest and exercise especialy after dinner take a long walk if it's safe to do so.

            sean

            aideenmck <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:

            --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com, "aideenmck"
            <aideenmck@. ..> wrote:
            >
            > Lately I tend to fall asleep every time I sit down to meditate;
            it's a
            > constant battle to remain awake. Regarding this matter, I find 2
            > conflicting views in books & articles about meditation. One is to
            > accept that what's needed at that time is sleep, so if sleep is
            what
            > happens, so be it. The other is to regard the sleepiness as the
            egoic
            > mind, fearful of annihilation, setting up a hindrance.
            >
            > Another problem which arose about the same time as the sleepiness
            is
            > pain. Again, I read conflicting advice about whether or not to
            adjust
            > my position. Be one with the excruciating pain, or shift the
            foot,
            > leg, whatever.
            >
            > It's a bad patch I'm going through, I guess, because if it isn't
            one
            > thing, it's the other. I'd like to hear what anybody has to say
            about
            > it.
            >
            > Thanks,
            > Aideen
            >
            I'm still wondering whether anybody has words of wisdom about the
            problem of pain to which I referred. Does one go into the pain, as
            it were, remaining physically still? Or move to alleviate it?
            Lately, there's always leg pain when I sit down to meditate, so I
            could be fidgeting constantly. I don't know what to do about this.
            I'd appreciate some advice.
            Thanks,
            Aideen

             

             


            Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
            Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

          • Daniel Bonekeeper
            Aideen, have you tried to sleep as much as you could, to the point where you just can t sleep anymore ? Try this. Sleep until you are fully rested and just
            Message 5 of 17 , Jul 16 10:19 AM
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              Aideen, have you tried to sleep as much as you could, to the point where you just can't sleep anymore ? Try this. Sleep until you are fully rested and just can't sleep anymore, even if you tried. Then, try to meditate, and we'll see.

              About the pain, I can't tell much... personally I like to meditate in an reclinable armchair, very confortable, so it's easy to just forget the body.

              Daniel

              On 7/16/07, Aideen McKenna <aideenmck@...> wrote:

              Errata: I exercise regularly, not irregularly.  --Aideen

               


              From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogro ups.com] On Behalf Of Aideen McKenna
              Sent: July 16, 2007 9:17 AM
              To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting

               

              Thanks to Sean & Bob.  Thanks also to the people who responded to Ben's post, because what they said reminded me that here are other ways of meditating besides sitting on a zafu.

              The cause of my painful joints is no mystery – it's arthritis, & there are times when it's more painful than other times.  I exercise irregularly & take long daily walks. 

              For the present, I'll make dish-washing my meditation & I'll position myself as Witness to the pain in my hands, which is less frightful than hip-joint pain.

              It's all good.

              Aideen

               


              From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sean tremblay
              Sent: July 16, 2007 3:59 AM
              To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting

               

              Aideen: you may need to see a doctor, it could be circulatory or even something in the nervous system.  In the mean time take a break from meditation.  Get plenty of rest and exercise especialy after dinner take a long walk if it's safe to do so.

              sean

              aideenmck <aideenmck@...> wrote:

              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com , "aideenmck"
              <aideenmck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Lately I tend to fall asleep every time I sit down to meditate;
              it's a
              > constant battle to remain awake. Regarding this matter, I find 2
              > conflicting views in books & articles about meditation. One is to
              > accept that what's needed at that time is sleep, so if sleep is
              what
              > happens, so be it. The other is to regard the sleepiness as the
              egoic
              > mind, fearful of annihilation, setting up a hindrance.
              >
              > Another problem which arose about the same time as the sleepiness
              is
              > pain. Again, I read conflicting advice about whether or not to
              adjust
              > my position. Be one with the excruciating pain, or shift the
              foot,
              > leg, whatever.
              >
              > It's a bad patch I'm going through, I guess, because if it isn't
              one
              > thing, it's the other. I'd like to hear what anybody has to say
              about
              > it.
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Aideen
              >
              I'm still wondering whether anybody has words of wisdom about the
              problem of pain to which I referred. Does one go into the pain, as
              it were, remaining physically still? Or move to alleviate it?
              Lately, there's always leg pain when I sit down to meditate, so I
              could be fidgeting constantly. I don't know what to do about this.
              I'd appreciate some advice.
              Thanks,
              Aideen

               

               


              Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
              Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.




              --
              "If you are still asking for the result, then a very subtle effort will continuously be there. You will not be just sitting; you cannot just sit if there are any desires. The desire will be a subtle movement in you, and the movement will continue. You may be sitting like a stone or like a buddha, but still within the stone will be moving. Desire is movement."
            • Grace Yllana
              Hello all...I m confused about the pain issue...I heard that part of meditation is to be able to observe pain, discomforts and other sensations...and realize
              Message 6 of 17 , Jul 16 10:51 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello all...I'm confused about the pain issue...I heard that part of meditation is to be able to "observe" pain, discomforts and other sensations...and realize they have a shelf life..or are temporary...etc...what is the word on pain..not from arthritis or any ailment...the pain and discomfort that sitting in one position for a long time produce??

                Grace Yllana

                Daniel Bonekeeper <bonekeeper@...> wrote:
                Aideen, have you tried to sleep as much as you could, to the point where you just can't sleep anymore ? Try this. Sleep until you are fully rested and just can't sleep anymore, even if you tried. Then, try to meditate, and we'll see.

                About the pain, I can't tell much... personally I like to meditate in an reclinable armchair, very confortable, so it's easy to just forget the body.

                Daniel

                On 7/16/07, Aideen McKenna <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:
                Errata: I exercise regularly, not irregularly.  --Aideen
                 

                From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com] On Behalf Of Aideen McKenna
                Sent: July 16, 2007 9:17 AM
                To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting
                 
                Thanks to Sean & Bob.  Thanks also to the people who responded to Ben's post, because what they said reminded me that here are other ways of meditating besides sitting on a zafu.
                The cause of my painful joints is no mystery – it's arthritis, & there are times when it's more painful than other times.  I exercise irregularly & take long daily walks. 
                For the present, I'll make dish-washing my meditation & I'll position myself as Witness to the pain in my hands, which is less frightful than hip-joint pain.
                It's all good.
                Aideen
                 

                From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sean tremblay
                Sent: July 16, 2007 3:59 AM
                To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting
                 
                Aideen: you may need to see a doctor, it could be circulatory or even something in the nervous system.  In the mean time take a break from meditation.  Get plenty of rest and exercise especialy after dinner take a long walk if it's safe to do so.
                sean

                aideenmck <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:
                --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com , "aideenmck"
                <aideenmck@.. .> wrote:
                >
                > Lately I tend to fall asleep every time I sit down to meditate;
                it's a
                > constant battle to remain awake. Regarding this matter, I find 2
                > conflicting views in books & articles about meditation. One is to
                > accept that what's needed at that time is sleep, so if sleep is
                what
                > happens, so be it. The other is to regard the sleepiness as the
                egoic
                > mind, fearful of annihilation, setting up a hindrance.
                >
                > Another problem which arose about the same time as the sleepiness
                is
                > pain. Again, I read conflicting advice about whether or not to
                adjust
                > my position. Be one with the excruciating pain, or shift the
                foot,
                > leg, whatever.
                >
                > It's a bad patch I'm going through, I guess, because if it isn't
                one
                > thing, it's the other. I'd like to hear what anybody has to say
                about
                > it.
                >
                > Thanks,
                > Aideen
                >
                I'm still wondering whether anybody has words of wisdom about the
                problem of pain to which I referred. Does one go into the pain, as
                it were, remaining physically still? Or move to alleviate it?
                Lately, there's always leg pain when I sit down to meditate, so I
                could be fidgeting constantly. I don't know what to do about this.
                I'd appreciate some advice.
                Thanks,
                Aideen
                 
                 

                Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
                Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.



                --
                "If you are still asking for the result, then a very subtle effort will continuously be there. You will not be just sitting; you cannot just sit if there are any desires. The desire will be a subtle movement in you, and the movement will continue. You may be sitting like a stone or like a buddha, but still within the stone will be moving. Desire is movement."


                Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

              • Aideen McKenna
                Exactly. That s what confuses me, too. ---Aideen _____ From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com]
                Message 7 of 17 , Jul 16 11:17 AM
                • 0 Attachment

                  Exactly.  That’s what confuses me, too.  ---Aideen

                   

                   


                  From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com [mailto: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Grace Yllana
                  Sent: July 16, 2007 10:52 AM
                  To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America ] Re: Sleepy & Hurting

                   

                  Hello all...I'm confused about the pain issue...I heard that part of meditation is to be able to "observe" pain, discomforts and other sensations.. .and realize they have a shelf life..or are temporary... etc...what is the word on pain..not from arthritis or any ailment...the pain and discomfort that sitting in one position for a long time produce??

                  Grace Yllana

                  Daniel Bonekeeper <bonekeeper@gmail. com> wrote:

                  Aideen, have you tried to sleep as much as you could, to the point where you just can't sleep anymore ? Try this. Sleep until you are fully rested and just can't sleep anymore, even if you tried. Then, try to meditate, and we'll see.

                  About the pain, I can't tell much... personally I like to meditate in an reclinable armchair, very confortable, so it's easy to just forget the body.

                  Daniel

                  On 7/16/07, Aideen McKenna <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:

                  Errata: I exercise regularly, not irregularly.  --Aideen

                   


                  From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com] On Behalf Of Aideen McKenna
                  Sent: July 16, 2007 9:17 AM
                  To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [Meditation Society of America ] Re: Sleepy & Hurting

                   

                  Thanks to Sean & Bob.  Thanks also to the people who responded to Ben's post, because what they said reminded me that here are other ways of meditating besides sitting on a zafu.

                  The cause of my painful joints is no mystery – it's arthritis, & there are times when it's more painful than other times.  I exercise irregularly & take long daily walks. 

                  For the present, I'll make dish-washing my meditation & I'll position myself as Witness to the pain in my hands, which is less frightful than hip-joint pain.

                  It's all good.

                  Aideen

                   


                  From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sean tremblay
                  Sent: July 16, 2007 3:59 AM
                  To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America ] Re: Sleepy & Hurting

                   

                  Aideen: you may need to see a doctor, it could be circulatory or even something in the nervous system.  In the mean time take a break from meditation.  Get plenty of rest and exercise especialy after dinner take a long walk if it's safe to do so.

                  sean

                  aideenmck <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:

                  --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com , "aideenmck"
                  <aideenmck@.. .> wrote:
                  >
                  > Lately I tend to fall asleep every time I sit down to meditate;
                  it's a
                  > constant battle to remain awake. Regarding this matter, I find 2
                  > conflicting views in books & articles about meditation. One is to
                  > accept that what's needed at that time is sleep, so if sleep is
                  what
                  > happens, so be it. The other is to regard the sleepiness as the
                  egoic
                  > mind, fearful of annihilation, setting up a hindrance.
                  >
                  > Another problem which arose about the same time as the sleepiness
                  is
                  > pain. Again, I read conflicting advice about whether or not to
                  adjust
                  > my position. Be one with the excruciating pain, or shift the
                  foot,
                  > leg, whatever.
                  >
                  > It's a bad patch I'm going through, I guess, because if it isn't
                  one
                  > thing, it's the other. I'd like to hear what anybody has to say
                  about
                  > it.
                  >
                  > Thanks,
                  > Aideen
                  >
                  I'm still wondering whether anybody has words of wisdom about the
                  problem of pain to which I referred. Does one go into the pain, as
                  it were, remaining physically still? Or move to alleviate it?
                  Lately, there's always leg pain when I sit down to meditate, so I
                  could be fidgeting constantly. I don't know what to do about this.
                  I'd appreciate some advice.
                  Thanks,
                  Aideen

                   

                   


                  Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
                  Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.




                  --
                  "If you are still asking for the result, then a very subtle effort will continuously be there. You will not be just sitting; you cannot just sit if there are any desires. The desire will be a subtle movement in you, and the movement will continue. You may be sitting like a stone or like a buddha, but still within the stone will be moving. Desire is movement."

                   

                   


                  Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

                • sean tremblay
                  When I was in the Army I used to go by the philosophy that Pain is weakness leaving the body after having back surgery my wife who s an RN and yoga
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jul 16 11:24 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    When I was in the Army I used to go by the philosophy that "Pain is weakness leaving the body" after having back surgery my wife who's an RN and yoga instructor reminded me "No Sean pain is an indication that something is wrong!"
                    She's smarter than me!

                    Grace Yllana <yllanagr@...> wrote:
                    Hello all...I'm confused about the pain issue...I heard that part of meditation is to be able to "observe" pain, discomforts and other sensations.. .and realize they have a shelf life..or are temporary... etc...what is the word on pain..not from arthritis or any ailment...the pain and discomfort that sitting in one position for a long time produce??

                    Grace Yllana

                    Daniel Bonekeeper <bonekeeper@gmail. com> wrote:
                    Aideen, have you tried to sleep as much as you could, to the point where you just can't sleep anymore ? Try this. Sleep until you are fully rested and just can't sleep anymore, even if you tried. Then, try to meditate, and we'll see.

                    About the pain, I can't tell much... personally I like to meditate in an reclinable armchair, very confortable, so it's easy to just forget the body.

                    Daniel

                    On 7/16/07, Aideen McKenna <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:
                    Errata: I exercise regularly, not irregularly.  --Aideen
                     

                    From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com] On Behalf Of Aideen McKenna
                    Sent: July 16, 2007 9:17 AM
                    To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting
                     
                    Thanks to Sean & Bob.  Thanks also to the people who responded to Ben's post, because what they said reminded me that here are other ways of meditating besides sitting on a zafu.
                    The cause of my painful joints is no mystery – it's arthritis, & there are times when it's more painful than other times.  I exercise irregularly & take long daily walks. 
                    For the present, I'll make dish-washing my meditation & I'll position myself as Witness to the pain in my hands, which is less frightful than hip-joint pain.
                    It's all good.
                    Aideen
                     

                    From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sean tremblay
                    Sent: July 16, 2007 3:59 AM
                    To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting
                     
                    Aideen: you may need to see a doctor, it could be circulatory or even something in the nervous system.  In the mean time take a break from meditation.  Get plenty of rest and exercise especialy after dinner take a long walk if it's safe to do so.
                    sean

                    aideenmck <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:
                    --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com , "aideenmck"
                    <aideenmck@.. .> wrote:
                    >
                    > Lately I tend to fall asleep every time I sit down to meditate;
                    it's a
                    > constant battle to remain awake. Regarding this matter, I find 2
                    > conflicting views in books & articles about meditation. One is to
                    > accept that what's needed at that time is sleep, so if sleep is
                    what
                    > happens, so be it. The other is to regard the sleepiness as the
                    egoic
                    > mind, fearful of annihilation, setting up a hindrance.
                    >
                    > Another problem which arose about the same time as the sleepiness
                    is
                    > pain. Again, I read conflicting advice about whether or not to
                    adjust
                    > my position. Be one with the excruciating pain, or shift the
                    foot,
                    > leg, whatever.
                    >
                    > It's a bad patch I'm going through, I guess, because if it isn't
                    one
                    > thing, it's the other. I'd like to hear what anybody has to say
                    about
                    > it.
                    >
                    > Thanks,
                    > Aideen
                    >
                    I'm still wondering whether anybody has words of wisdom about the
                    problem of pain to which I referred. Does one go into the pain, as
                    it were, remaining physically still? Or move to alleviate it?
                    Lately, there's always leg pain when I sit down to meditate, so I
                    could be fidgeting constantly. I don't know what to do about this.
                    I'd appreciate some advice.
                    Thanks,
                    Aideen
                     
                     

                    Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
                    Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.



                    --
                    "If you are still asking for the result, then a very subtle effort will continuously be there. You will not be just sitting; you cannot just sit if there are any desires. The desire will be a subtle movement in you, and the movement will continue. You may be sitting like a stone or like a buddha, but still within the stone will be moving. Desire is movement."


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                  • Grace Yllana
                    Does that mean that when the teacher...says locked in one position without moving...we should move and not practice observing the pain? I do know that with
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jul 16 12:34 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Does that mean that when the teacher...says locked in one position without moving...we should move and not practice observing the pain? I do know that with practice..I got better and better at observing the pain and watching it come and go...and one time actually "think" it away..like self hypnosis...but during meditation retreat..I passed out from trying to "observe" the pain..I was hyperventilating to be able to keep in the locked position we were told to keep...and I was the only one who was going to move after 2 hours and did not want to be the one..result I passed out and they took me to ER..so still confused on the pain issue..

                      Grace

                      sean tremblay <bethjams9@...> wrote:
                      When I was in the Army I used to go by the philosophy that "Pain is weakness leaving the body" after having back surgery my wife who's an RN and yoga instructor reminded me "No Sean pain is an indication that something is wrong!"
                      She's smarter than me!

                      Grace Yllana <yllanagr@yahoo. com> wrote:
                      Hello all...I'm confused about the pain issue...I heard that part of meditation is to be able to "observe" pain, discomforts and other sensations.. .and realize they have a shelf life..or are temporary... etc...what is the word on pain..not from arthritis or any ailment...the pain and discomfort that sitting in one position for a long time produce??

                      Grace Yllana

                      Daniel Bonekeeper <bonekeeper@gmail. com> wrote:
                      Aideen, have you tried to sleep as much as you could, to the point where you just can't sleep anymore ? Try this. Sleep until you are fully rested and just can't sleep anymore, even if you tried. Then, try to meditate, and we'll see.

                      About the pain, I can't tell much... personally I like to meditate in an reclinable armchair, very confortable, so it's easy to just forget the body.

                      Daniel

                      On 7/16/07, Aideen McKenna <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:
                      Errata: I exercise regularly, not irregularly.  --Aideen
                       

                      From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com] On Behalf Of Aideen McKenna
                      Sent: July 16, 2007 9:17 AM
                      To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting
                       
                      Thanks to Sean & Bob.  Thanks also to the people who responded to Ben's post, because what they said reminded me that here are other ways of meditating besides sitting on a zafu.
                      The cause of my painful joints is no mystery – it's arthritis, & there are times when it's more painful than other times.  I exercise irregularly & take long daily walks. 
                      For the present, I'll make dish-washing my meditation & I'll position myself as Witness to the pain in my hands, which is less frightful than hip-joint pain.
                      It's all good.
                      Aideen
                       

                      From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sean tremblay
                      Sent: July 16, 2007 3:59 AM
                      To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting
                       
                      Aideen: you may need to see a doctor, it could be circulatory or even something in the nervous system.  In the mean time take a break from meditation.  Get plenty of rest and exercise especialy after dinner take a long walk if it's safe to do so.
                      sean

                      aideenmck <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:
                      --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com , "aideenmck"
                      <aideenmck@.. .> wrote:
                      >
                      > Lately I tend to fall asleep every time I sit down to meditate;
                      it's a
                      > constant battle to remain awake. Regarding this matter, I find 2
                      > conflicting views in books & articles about meditation. One is to
                      > accept that what's needed at that time is sleep, so if sleep is
                      what
                      > happens, so be it. The other is to regard the sleepiness as the
                      egoic
                      > mind, fearful of annihilation, setting up a hindrance.
                      >
                      > Another problem which arose about the same time as the sleepiness
                      is
                      > pain. Again, I read conflicting advice about whether or not to
                      adjust
                      > my position. Be one with the excruciating pain, or shift the
                      foot,
                      > leg, whatever.
                      >
                      > It's a bad patch I'm going through, I guess, because if it isn't
                      one
                      > thing, it's the other. I'd like to hear what anybody has to say
                      about
                      > it.
                      >
                      > Thanks,
                      > Aideen
                      >
                      I'm still wondering whether anybody has words of wisdom about the
                      problem of pain to which I referred. Does one go into the pain, as
                      it were, remaining physically still? Or move to alleviate it?
                      Lately, there's always leg pain when I sit down to meditate, so I
                      could be fidgeting constantly. I don't know what to do about this.
                      I'd appreciate some advice.
                      Thanks,
                      Aideen
                       
                       

                      Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
                      Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.



                      --
                      "If you are still asking for the result, then a very subtle effort will continuously be there. You will not be just sitting; you cannot just sit if there are any desires. The desire will be a subtle movement in you, and the movement will continue. You may be sitting like a stone or like a buddha, but still within the stone will be moving. Desire is movement."


                      Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.


                      Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.


                      Got a little couch potato?
                      Check out fun summer activities for kids.

                    • medit8ionsociety
                      ... without moving...we should move and not practice observing the pain? I do know that with practice..I got better and better at observing the pain and
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jul 16 12:39 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Grace Yllana
                        <yllanagr@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Does that mean that when the teacher...says locked in one position
                        without moving...we should move and not practice observing the pain? I
                        do know that with practice..I got better and better at observing the
                        pain and watching it come and go...and one time actually "think" it
                        away..like self hypnosis...but during meditation retreat..I passed out
                        from trying to "observe" the pain..I was hyperventilating to be able
                        to keep in the locked position we were told to keep...and I was the
                        only one who was going to move after 2 hours and did not want to be
                        the one..result I passed out and they took me to ER..so still confused
                        on the pain issue..
                        >
                        > Grace
                        >
                        Working with intense pain - Ram Dass

                        "What I've learned from all this is what a delicate
                        game it is to work with intense pain. Like all
                        the experiences of an incarnation, pain has to be
                        experienced fully by the Ego in order to be an
                        effective learning experience for the Soul, but
                        plunging in like that locks you into the pain.
                        The only solution is to be on two planes at once:
                        you have to enter the pain fully, and yet be in
                        the Soul level at the same time. That's fierce?
                        You feel the full intensity of the pain, and at the
                        same time you transcend it by being in the Witness state.
                        Pain demands that you establish yourself
                        simultaneously in Ego and Soul. What an incredible
                        teacher it is."

                        From: Still Here by Ram Dass
                      • Grace Yllana
                        Thanks...that makes more sense to me now...whether I will ever get to the 2 plane state..I don t know..hopefully it happens with practice. Grace
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jul 16 12:57 PM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Thanks...that makes more sense to me now...whether I will ever get to the 2 plane state..I don't know..hopefully it happens with practice.

                          Grace

                          medit8ionsociety <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                          --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com, Grace Yllana
                          <yllanagr@.. .> wrote:
                          >
                          > Does that mean that when the teacher...says locked in one position
                          without moving...we should move and not practice observing the pain? I
                          do know that with practice..I got better and better at observing the
                          pain and watching it come and go...and one time actually "think" it
                          away..like self hypnosis...but during meditation retreat..I passed out
                          from trying to "observe" the pain..I was hyperventilating to be able
                          to keep in the locked position we were told to keep...and I was the
                          only one who was going to move after 2 hours and did not want to be
                          the one..result I passed out and they took me to ER..so still confused
                          on the pain issue..
                          >
                          > Grace
                          >
                          Working with intense pain - Ram Dass

                          "What I've learned from all this is what a delicate
                          game it is to work with intense pain. Like all
                          the experiences of an incarnation, pain has to be
                          experienced fully by the Ego in order to be an
                          effective learning experience for the Soul, but
                          plunging in like that locks you into the pain.
                          The only solution is to be on two planes at once:
                          you have to enter the pain fully, and yet be in
                          the Soul level at the same time. That's fierce?
                          You feel the full intensity of the pain, and at the
                          same time you transcend it by being in the Witness state.
                          Pain demands that you establish yourself
                          simultaneously in Ego and Soul. What an incredible
                          teacher it is."

                          From: Still Here by Ram Dass



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                        • sean tremblay
                          The Idea of observing the pain is restricted to the level of minor discomfort. IF pain is continual and extreme that is an indication that there is something
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jul 16 2:37 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            The Idea of observing the pain is restricted to the level of minor discomfort. IF pain is continual and extreme that is an indication that there is something wrong biologicaly, remember there is a difference in transending suffering and enduring it.  The practice of Hatha Yoga is to create a mind body connection through fittness and strength as well as flexibility the true purpose of this yoga is to prepare the body for meditation, it frees the mind from the aches and pains a healthy body enables the meditator to focus on meditation rather than getting beyond pain.  In my career I have had to push many physical limits, mentaly override physical pain and injury to achieve a certain goal. The mind can be trained to do this easy enough the threshold for pain increases with exposure BUT this is the extreme and should be reserved for extremes.
                            As grandpa Harvey always told me
                            "Bull strength and ignorence will only get you so far"

                            Grace Yllana <yllanagr@...> wrote:
                            Does that mean that when the teacher...says locked in one position without moving...we should move and not practice observing the pain? I do know that with practice..I got better and better at observing the pain and watching it come and go...and one time actually "think" it away..like self hypnosis...but during meditation retreat..I passed out from trying to "observe" the pain..I was hyperventilating to be able to keep in the locked position we were told to keep...and I was the only one who was going to move after 2 hours and did not want to be the one..result I passed out and they took me to ER..so still confused on the pain issue..

                            Grace

                            sean tremblay <bethjams9@yahoo. com> wrote:
                            When I was in the Army I used to go by the philosophy that "Pain is weakness leaving the body" after having back surgery my wife who's an RN and yoga instructor reminded me "No Sean pain is an indication that something is wrong!"
                            She's smarter than me!

                            Grace Yllana <yllanagr@yahoo. com> wrote:
                            Hello all...I'm confused about the pain issue...I heard that part of meditation is to be able to "observe" pain, discomforts and other sensations.. .and realize they have a shelf life..or are temporary... etc...what is the word on pain..not from arthritis or any ailment...the pain and discomfort that sitting in one position for a long time produce??

                            Grace Yllana

                            Daniel Bonekeeper <bonekeeper@gmail. com> wrote:
                            Aideen, have you tried to sleep as much as you could, to the point where you just can't sleep anymore ? Try this. Sleep until you are fully rested and just can't sleep anymore, even if you tried. Then, try to meditate, and we'll see.

                            About the pain, I can't tell much... personally I like to meditate in an reclinable armchair, very confortable, so it's easy to just forget the body.

                            Daniel

                            On 7/16/07, Aideen McKenna <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:
                            Errata: I exercise regularly, not irregularly.  --Aideen
                             

                            From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com] On Behalf Of Aideen McKenna
                            Sent: July 16, 2007 9:17 AM
                            To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting
                             
                            Thanks to Sean & Bob.  Thanks also to the people who responded to Ben's post, because what they said reminded me that here are other ways of meditating besides sitting on a zafu.
                            The cause of my painful joints is no mystery – it's arthritis, & there are times when it's more painful than other times.  I exercise irregularly & take long daily walks. 
                            For the present, I'll make dish-washing my meditation & I'll position myself as Witness to the pain in my hands, which is less frightful than hip-joint pain.
                            It's all good.
                            Aideen
                             

                            From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sean tremblay
                            Sent: July 16, 2007 3:59 AM
                            To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sleepy & Hurting
                             
                            Aideen: you may need to see a doctor, it could be circulatory or even something in the nervous system.  In the mean time take a break from meditation.  Get plenty of rest and exercise especialy after dinner take a long walk if it's safe to do so.
                            sean

                            aideenmck <aideenmck@telus. net> wrote:
                            --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com , "aideenmck"
                            <aideenmck@.. .> wrote:
                            >
                            > Lately I tend to fall asleep every time I sit down to meditate;
                            it's a
                            > constant battle to remain awake. Regarding this matter, I find 2
                            > conflicting views in books & articles about meditation. One is to
                            > accept that what's needed at that time is sleep, so if sleep is
                            what
                            > happens, so be it. The other is to regard the sleepiness as the
                            egoic
                            > mind, fearful of annihilation, setting up a hindrance.
                            >
                            > Another problem which arose about the same time as the sleepiness
                            is
                            > pain. Again, I read conflicting advice about whether or not to
                            adjust
                            > my position. Be one with the excruciating pain, or shift the
                            foot,
                            > leg, whatever.
                            >
                            > It's a bad patch I'm going through, I guess, because if it isn't
                            one
                            > thing, it's the other. I'd like to hear what anybody has to say
                            about
                            > it.
                            >
                            > Thanks,
                            > Aideen
                            >
                            I'm still wondering whether anybody has words of wisdom about the
                            problem of pain to which I referred. Does one go into the pain, as
                            it were, remaining physically still? Or move to alleviate it?
                            Lately, there's always leg pain when I sit down to meditate, so I
                            could be fidgeting constantly. I don't know what to do about this.
                            I'd appreciate some advice.
                            Thanks,
                            Aideen
                             
                             

                            Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
                            Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.



                            --
                            "If you are still asking for the result, then a very subtle effort will continuously be there. You will not be just sitting; you cannot just sit if there are any desires. The desire will be a subtle movement in you, and the movement will continue. You may be sitting like a stone or like a buddha, but still within the stone will be moving. Desire is movement."


                            Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.


                            Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.


                            Got a little couch potato?
                            Check out fun summer activities for kids.


                            Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

                          • sean tremblay
                            Sure thats true but, bones break, cuts bleed, and the body is subject to physical inury regardless of the state ID, Ego, soul, Super Ego, planes of existence.
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jul 16 2:46 PM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Sure thats true but, bones break, cuts bleed, and the body is subject to physical inury
                              regardless of the state ID, Ego, soul, Super Ego, planes of existence. A brocken bone needs mending you can check your inner self after the emergency room visit.
                              A man was shot with a poison arrow
                              many rushed to pull it out
                              Before they did the man wanted to know
                              who shot the arrow
                              and what was the poison
                              what kind of fethers made the fletching
                              The Buddha's lesson
                              Just pull out the arrow

                              Grace Yllana <yllanagr@...> wrote:
                              Thanks...that makes more sense to me now...whether I will ever get to the 2 plane state..I don't know..hopefully it happens with practice.

                              Grace

                              medit8ionsociety <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com> wrote:
                              --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com, Grace Yllana
                              <yllanagr@.. .> wrote:
                              >
                              > Does that mean that when the teacher...says locked in one position
                              without moving...we should move and not practice observing the pain? I
                              do know that with practice..I got better and better at observing the
                              pain and watching it come and go...and one time actually "think" it
                              away..like self hypnosis...but during meditation retreat..I passed out
                              from trying to "observe" the pain..I was hyperventilating to be able
                              to keep in the locked position we were told to keep...and I was the
                              only one who was going to move after 2 hours and did not want to be
                              the one..result I passed out and they took me to ER..so still confused
                              on the pain issue..
                              >
                              > Grace
                              >
                              Working with intense pain - Ram Dass

                              "What I've learned from all this is what a delicate
                              game it is to work with intense pain. Like all
                              the experiences of an incarnation, pain has to be
                              experienced fully by the Ego in order to be an
                              effective learning experience for the Soul, but
                              plunging in like that locks you into the pain.
                              The only solution is to be on two planes at once:
                              you have to enter the pain fully, and yet be in
                              the Soul level at the same time. That's fierce?
                              You feel the full intensity of the pain, and at the
                              same time you transcend it by being in the Witness state.
                              Pain demands that you establish yourself
                              simultaneously in Ego and Soul. What an incredible
                              teacher it is."

                              From: Still Here by Ram Dass



                              Be a PS3 game guru.
                              Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.


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                              Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

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