Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [Meditation Society of America] Thoughts on individuality

Expand Messages
  • sean tremblay
    Aideen that is fantastic! it amazes me how much we can get from his teachings when we rediscover. There is something to be said for taking things as they are
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 3, 2007
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      Aideen that is fantastic! it amazes me how much we can get from his teachings when we rediscover. There is something to be said for taking things as they are and not what you want them to be.  Thanks I will have to pass this passage on. my wife and a client are starting a biblical based meditation group out of her yoga studio,  by the way that is by far my favorite Beatles song!

      Aideen McKenna <aideenmck@...> wrote:
      Sunday morning here, & the first thing that I read is Sean’s message.  Thanks for it, Sean.   
      Having been raised a Catholic in a kind of hothouse atmosphere & then completely removing myself from that milieu, it took a very long time for me to be able to re-discover Jesus of Nazareth & to be able to think about his words & his life without the filter provided for me.  Something like “…unless ye be converted & be as these little children, ye shall not enter the kingdom of heaven…“.  It’s only after all these years that I “get” that.  “Converted” doesn’t mean being baptized into the only “right” church, or any church.  It doesn’t mean a profession of belief in a list of doctrines &/or adherence to a huge list of rules.  It refers to a kind of turning around, turning back, to a time before life got so cluttered & chock-full of judgement, before I went outside of myself to look for the kingdom of heaven all over the place, forgetting that I used to live in it, & if I didn’t keep getting in my own way, I’d totally realize that I still do, if I’d only be still & pay attention.  Rabbi Yeshua was saying “get back to where you once belonged” (Lennon/McCartney) .  That’s what I think, anyway.

      From: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com ] On Behalf Of sean tremblay
      Sent: June 3, 2007 7:03 AM
      To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com
      Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Thoughts on individuality
      Sandeep Thank you for that.  If I put something out there I fully expect it to be chalenged.  And for that I am greatfull,  with Ideas come and go and without chalenging them they hold no experencial value.  I can only bang these thoughts off of the guys on the docks so much before they get tired of that kind of banter.  I think there is in me a certain "cling-ing" to a sense of self.  But I also think there is a degree of something that I am failing to find words for.  I have found meditation and yoga to be very grounding tools these help wash away the morgage bills and traffic and free me up for the direct experience of those things and people that I find value in. Striping away my own negitivity alows me to fully appreiciate the moment. I think thats the thing I refer to remembering or appreciating in children when the world was new to us and we expreienced it as it was without putting values to it.  The mechanics of what is real and what is not real I believe are unimportant( At least for me right now)  What is important (at least to me at this moment) is awakening to my here and now, and a bit of indugence for th ID because in this point and time this is the only reality I know.  So we go, weather we believe this is al a dream or not we think, feel ,love and other stuff day in day out and sure the scene changes, rapidly in some cases slowly in other something familar remains and others fade into memory.
      Humanity is the creator beast, the animal that conjures into being things that before did not exist, such as great works of art, music, dinner a house you name it we do this daily with the cooperation of others.  This ability is what I refer to as our great redeming quality and it starts with our imagination, first we dream it then we build it,  the dark side of this is that with this same imagination we can create false negative realities for ourselves and get stuck in them, first we dream it then we build it.  and that I guess is what I would like to guard myself against I sometimes use a long run to do this, or Ashtanga as I have recently discovered(thanks to my wife)
      I have created many things but
      I didnt create the finches in my back yard
      I didnt create the works of Charlie Parker
      I didnt create Boston cream pie
      I didnt create Triumph motocycles
      I didnt create the strange creatuers I've seen at the bottom of the sea
      I didnt create you guys or this forum
      But I'm glad your all here and I'm thankfull to you for taking the time to entertain these leter and thank you for your insights and wisedom
      pardon the typo's

      Sandeep <sandeep1960@ yahoo.com> wrote:

      Hi Sean,


      Some musings..... ...


      Each object...... .... apparently discrete, ..........each object with varying attributes including the attribute of sentience(with the object popularly known as "humans" having the most) ...........making up this phenomenality in which you are reading some squiggles on a PC screen...... .

      .....is an expression.. ..ing.

      Expression.. .ing because there is nothing static  about any object.

      Whether that object is a stone lying still for a million years or that youngest son thinking out of the box in elementary school.

      Each expression.. .ing is uniquely crafted and is getting expressed uniquely.... ......... with each expressioning existing only as reflection in the other.


      And through "expression. ..ing"... ......... are further expressionings getting expressed... ......... as thoughts.... .....as a choosing among thoughts to arrive at

      what is felt as MY DECISION.... .

      .....the external actualization of that decision as a physical action, through the physio-neurological -spatial complex..... ..

      ....and the further invoked reaction/response/ consequence of that occurring physical action.


      Moment to moment to moment, through the infinite array of objects..... this mosaic of expressionings. ....lo behold the drama of infinite hues, colours and nuances.



      Indeed, decisions are getting taken, intentions are arising and some of them getting intended, some withering away........ . will is being exercised in the form of an exercising of  choice of this and not that....

      .....the successful/not- successful actualization of this will, intention, decision.... ... each as as "events", as "happenings" ........making up the woof and warp of the fabric of phenomenality.



      And in this whole drama made up of infinite "happenings" ......... ..there is no "individuated- discrete- stand alone" entity making/enabling/ abetting any of these "happenings" .


      Whether that "happening" is a thought of having a cup of tea instead of a tequila shot, ............ sitting in zazen or in the frenzy of a stock market .......

      .......OR even the thought as a reaction.... ......that this no-self-proposition is a whole lot of hogwash, a mere justification to rationalize the "bad/evil/wrong doing" that dots the world.



      The acceptance of something, anything ...........OR the opposition/rejectio n of that something, anything.... ......is once again a mere nuance of the movement of the moment.




      So what is this self, the "me", the "individual" , the ego, the mind.

      It is a sense.

      A sense arising out of a sense of forgetfulness, resulting in a identification with a particular, which results in a sense of separation.

      And consequences of this sense of separation are the feelings of ownership (MY out-of-box thinking son), which has to invoke the need to defend that ownership, whether that be "MY" beloved offspring or "MY" conclusions, "MY" understandings, "MY" book, "MY" truth....... .. et al.



      How does forgetfulness come into the equation and create "MY" world, which appears so compelling real, in which I-Sean have so much stake.

       

      An anecdote.... ..

      There was a farmer and his wife who were childless, for decades.

      After years, they have a son, who grows up to be a handsome lad, a paragon of virtue, of loving nature...... ......the pride of not just his parents but of the entire village.

      One day the son falls sick and his health starts deteriorating.

      No medical treatment is able to address the illness and  after spending a fortune on  treating his son's illness, the father and mother are told that nothing can be done and  the son has few hours to live.

      Weeping for the impending demise of his only beloved son.......in sheer exhaustion the father dozes off.

      And after some time is woken by the loud cries of his wife who wails that their beloved son is dead.

      The father remains silent.

      And for hours, while working out the modalities of the funeral..... .....there appears to be no visible sign of grief on the father's face or behaviour.

      The son's mother berates her husband on this lack of grief for the death of their only son.

      The farmer responds" While I had dozed off, I dreamt I was the king, with a huge kingdom.
      I had 7 sons, each sturdy and handsome, each so capable, so lovingly helping me discharge my duties in running the kingdom.
      There was so much joy, so much richness in my life."

      The son's mother scornfully asks "So what has that stupid dream to do with anything now?"

      The farmer responds " I am wondering, whose death should I mourn?

      Of this boy or of those 7 boys?"




      Nothing, absolutely nothing of this waking dream world has an existential meaning, in the dream-world of your last night sleep.

      The beloved relationships, the not-so beloved relationships, the joys, the griefs, the achievements, the successes, the failures, the understandings, spiritual or otherwise, the sufferings, pain, hurts....... ...in  a blip they get erased.

      And re-appears on waking from the last night sleep....... ......(which  is believed to be the same as before, but is not)


       
      And nothing, absolutely nothing of that dream-world of last night sleep (which was so compelling real) has  any existential meaning in  this waking dream world.


      And nothing, absolutely nothing of either of these 2 dream worlds...... ....has an existential meaning in the state of deep sleep.

      That which appears and disappears in time........ ...can only be akin to the eddies in the water.

      Not the water.



      That there is no "individuated- discrete- stand alone" entity making/enabling/ abetting any of these "happenings" ......... ..gets revealed through a very simple
      unraveling.

      If there is an interest.... .....this unraveling is detailed in the Covenant site.



      Now the "clever mind" will immediately jump up and state if there is no "individuated- discrete- stand alone" entity/me/self. ......... ....who is do this unraveling.

      In that "clever" question is the same paradigm at work........ ......that there is something/some one  to do ............ ..OR..... ....... not to do.


      If the unraveling happens as an expressioning through an expressioning popularly known as "Sean"...... .......it will be a nuance of the Totality ...as the happening of that moment.

      If not, ..........that non-happening as an expressioning through an expressioning popularly known as "Sean"...... ..

      ....that too will be a nuance of the Totality ...as the happening of that moment.







      Doooo Beeee Dooo Beeeeee Doooooo



       



      sean tremblay wrote:
      Greetings all!,  I was just pondering some of the thoughts I have read and written on Ideas of the self and I seem to have been railing heavely in favor of the individual will.  I would like to give a little more of where I'm coming from on this.  There are many Ideas of what the mind is and what the self is.  Some would say it is a collection of memories stored by an organ bio chemical in nature and based on biochemical responses to stimulas, I can't argue with that but Jeeeeez thats cold.  Others would say it is the acumulation of past karma, again I can't argue with but it's the metaphysical equivalent of the first option.  Being a person of realitive reason I base as most do my opinions on a combination of experience, observation and good old fashioned gut feeling.   As a father I have had the wonderfull experience of observing my kids grow and develope and from the moment they were born they have had something uniquely there own, a light inside them so precious and unlike any other.  This is the thing they came here with and it grows with them, it tells jokes and plays pranks, its the thing that drives them to climb trees explore a new creek or just sit for an hour watching birds in the feeder in the back yard. Everyone of us has this light this thing inside us that makes us so unique and individual this is the thing that lends so much flavor to our daily lives.  I cant begin to acount for all the people I have met that have left something with me some experience a piece of there light I've met them in bus stations, city streets, on trains and back ally's like one young girl bare foot in a tank top and boxer shorts I met her while riding my motorcycle down a back country road, she showed me which plants I need to pick to polish the chrome on my bike.  That thing that eassence of being in humanity is our redeaming quality and if fully realized and expressed it can be the thing that saves us from ruin.  It's not to find or even awaken I supose it's to be remembered.  It's the person you where before expectations and pain and diapointment set in when the demands of life made you shut off that piece of you.  I must say though that boddisattvas walk amoungst us on the streets and in our children.   I was called in to the elementary school one day because my youngest son was having difficulty,  the teacher told me that he thought outside the box and danced to the tune of his own drummer, well with great pride I said Ma'am he's a seven year old little boy.

      Y
      _,_._,___
       

      Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.


      Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.

    • Sandeep
      *Hello Sean. Some comments in-between * ... *There was nor is any challenge Sean. A challenge needs an objective to be fulfilled, a stake to be achieved. There
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 3, 2007
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        Hello Sean.

        Some comments in-between




        sean tremblay wrote:
        Sandeep Thank you for that.  If I put something out there I fully expect it to be chalenged. 


        :-)
        There was nor is any challenge Sean.

        A challenge needs an objective to be fulfilled, a stake to be achieved.

        There is no objective in this dialogue, there is no stake.

        And yet this dialogue is taking place, as once again........... a nuance of the moment.





        And for that I am greatfull,  with Ideas come and go and without chalenging them they hold no experencial value.  I can only bang these thoughts off of the guys on the docks so much before they get tired of that kind of banter.  I think there is in me a certain "cling-ing" to a sense of self. 




        Yes.

        A simple recognition and the witnessing of  it's riding on the event of the moment.



        But I also think there is a degree of something that I am failing to find words for.  I have found meditation and yoga to be very grounding tools these help wash away the morgage bills and traffic and free me up for the direct experience of those things and people that I find value in. Striping away my own negitivity alows me to fully appreiciate the moment. I think thats the thing I refer to remembering or appreciating in children when the world was new to us and we expreienced it as it was without putting values to it.







        Yes.

        As the dude Jesus put it................it will be the child that will enter my Dad's pad.

        The child here referring to an existing without a trace of conceptualizing.





        The mechanics of what is real and what is not real I believe are unimportant( At least for me right now)



        Indeed.

        For in that very distinction.............lo behold the world.




        What is important (at least to me at this moment) is awakening to my here and now,






        The awakening to the here and now, is the apperception, that there was and is nothing apart from the here and now which is to awaken to the here and now.

        And in that apperception is the apperception that even the concept of "here" and "now" are conceptual conjectures.

        For the thought of "here" and "now" is not the "here/now".

        and a bit of indugence for th ID because in this point and time this is the only reality I know.  So we go, weather we believe this is al a dream or not we think, feel ,love and other stuff day in day out and sure the scene changes, rapidly in some cases slowly in other something familar remains and others fade into memory.


        The warp and woof of the fabric of life is never an issue.
        Unless there is a stake with any aspect of it.

        The issue is not with the dream or whether it is a dream or not.

        The issue is that some aspect of the dream is preferred over another aspect of it.




        Humanity is the creator beast, the animal that conjures into being things that before did not exist, such as great works of art, music, dinner a house you name it we do this daily with the cooperation of others.  This ability is what I refer to as our great redeming quality and it starts with our imagination, first we dream it then we build it,  the dark side of this is that with this same imagination we can create false negative realities for ourselves and get stuck in them, first we dream it then we build it.  and that I guess is what I would like to guard myself against I sometimes use a long run to do this, or Ashtanga as I have recently discovered(thanks to my wife)
        I have created many things but
        I didnt create the finches in my back yard
        I didnt create the works of Charlie Parker
        I didnt create Boston cream pie
        I didnt create Triumph motocycles
        I didnt create the strange creatuers I've seen at the bottom of the sea
        I didnt create you guys or this forum














        Says who? :-)

        As soon as you switch off tonight........snoring away on a 6 X 4 cot........

        ......your wife, .............the things that got created through Sean, .........the finches in your backyard, the backyard,
        works of Charlie Parker, Charlie Parker (whoever he is), Boston cream pie, the whole city of Boston, ..........Triumph motorcycles,  strange creatures in the sea, .............the very sea itself,...........  us guys, this forum.............

        ............the entirety of that drama including all the dramatic characters..............goes poof.

        Goes poof for you Sean.

        You ...................AND........... your world made up of what appears to you as reality and what appears to you as imagination..............are co-dependent arisings.



        A statement of course equally valid for any other sentient expression--ing.

        A seeming commonality in all the co-dependent arisings, may lend a sense of an  independent existent reality to the drama, but in fact  the commonality is also superficial.


         


        But I'm glad your all here and I'm thankfull to you for taking the time to entertain these leter and thank you for your insights and wisedom
        pardon the typo's




        Why is it important to decipher the reality of this sense of the self, without which any espoused conclusion, understanding, experience is meaningless?

        First of all nothing is of importance.

        And nothing is of no-importance either.



        Deciphering the reality of the sense of the self is really ground zero, because any conclusion, any understanding, any experience.........needs an apriori self......

        ........a sense of a self........ for which the conclusion is a conclusion,............. the understanding is an understanding.....
        ..... the experience is an experience.

        In the apperception that the sense of an individuated self is itself a notion, an ideation, a mentation........

        .......the conclusions/understandings/experiences of this notional ideated self are apperceived, for what they truly are.

        More eddies in the water.

        In the resultant silence,.............. in the resultant quietude of  this apperception (which is not an absence of functioning, actioning).............is










      • Sandeep
        *Hello Aideen, Yes, the root meaning of the word repent is .............return. Not penance, or sacrifice or whatever is the guilt-trip that is laid out with
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 3, 2007
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello Aideen,

          Yes, the root meaning of the word "repent" is .............return.

          Not penance, or sacrifice or whatever is the guilt-trip that is laid out with a promise of salvation........

          ....... but return.






          Aideen McKenna wrote:

          Sunday morning here, & the first thing that I read is Sean’s message.  Thanks for it, Sean.   

          Having been raised a Catholic in a kind of hothouse atmosphere & then completely removing myself from that milieu, it took a very long time for me to be able to re-discover Jesus of Nazareth & to be able to think about his words & his life without the filter provided for me.  Something like “…unless ye be converted & be as these little children, ye shall not enter the kingdom of heaven…“.  It’s only after all these years that I “get” that.  “Converted” doesn’t mean being baptized into the only “right” church, or any church.  It doesn’t mean a profession of belief in a list of doctrines &/or adherence to a huge list of rules.  It refers to a kind of turning around, turning back, to a time before life got so cluttered & chock-full of judgement, before I went outside of myself to look for the kingdom of heaven all over the place, forgetting that I used to live in it, & if I didn’t keep getting in my own way, I’d totally realize that I still do, if I’d only be still & pay attention.  Rabbi Yeshua was saying “get back to where you once belonged” (Lennon/McCartney) .  That’s what I think, anyway.



        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.