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Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Mindfullness meditation

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  • Marc Moss
    A perfect example of how the definition of enlightenment has been mistranslated into some Keith Carradine Kung Foo idea that all you have to do is be in the
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 26, 2007
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      A perfect example of how the definition of enlightenment has been mistranslated into some Keith Carradine Kung Foo idea that all you have to do is be in the moment and that's the goal. But, that is just a means. This is not pontification, my friends. This is truth. Truth that requires much more depth of investigation.
       
      So, let's start with your idea that all you need is to be in the moment. Fabulous, a great start. But, after a while, and suffering is still bombarding you and you have yet to meet with your own Dharmakaya expression, maybe you'll be led to investigate what the "moment" is.
       
      In the Mulamadhyamika, Nagarjuna tells us that there are 65 moments of consciousness per second. The Mulamadhyamika is a text that I know Zen uses. So, I'm not out of context here. In every moment after the first instant, there are opportunities of karma. Film makers in recent years found that anything past 60 frames per second in movie making is undetectable by the human mind. By the end of a day you have 5, 616,000 moments of consciousness, all capable of producing negative karma. Anything without a correct understanding of emptiness creates karma, bad or what is called "dirty" good karma (brings an attractive result but does not necessarily lead to buddhahood).
       
      In the action of perception, the sense organ makes contact with a sense object: let's say the eye sees the computer. The eye is incapable of anything other than collecting the data of shapes and colors. The process of conceptualization (what that thing is) is within the following moments, though they happen very rapidly, they are not instantaneous. The messages in the brain are then collected and organized into mental images of this thing out there that fits the characteristics of the quality called "computerness". The image is formed and then is inseparable with the object we previously made contact with. BUT, if the computer is changing, it is doing so moment by moment, within the same rapidity of time as the process of perception/conception. Therefore, if you have created the mental image in the third or fourth millisecond, the computer is now in the third or fourth millisecond as well. You have a gap, one to which you cannot in this waking and observing and discriminating frame of mind can ever close. Mindfulness of what?? The past. You will always be in the past with observations, and that is not, by definition the "moment" that can be freeing.
       
      If you follow one of Master Dignaga's proofs, you trace the mind back to the "first" moment of consciousness...in so doing, you are following the gaps between contact and conception. The mind has dominion over body, not the other way around. We can see this in our gross observations, obvious effects of body from mind. But, on a subtle level: follow the moments of consciousness back to the point where sperm and egg meet, and if you have a previous moment, you would have past lives...even a millisecond.
       
      Milliseconds can be an eternity for some things: leptons, muons.
       
      As you see, the mind still moving is not in "the moment". If you have not reached the ninth level of meditative absorption, have all the Kung Foo analogies that you like, pour all the tea that you want, but you are still using an active mind. If the discriminative part of mind is at work, you are not in the moment, just a flash in the past. You cannot have an experience of "I" am "meditating" on "this". The senses will shut down at this deepest level...and it is very interesting to see scientifically what has happened to the parietal lobe, a part of the brain formerly believed to be always active.
       
      Mindfulness practice is wonderful, and having respect and faith in your teacher is best! I applaud you, but careful on the criticisms. If you are still experiencing suffering, you are probably not enlightened. If you are criticizing someone else's words that were intended to help someone out of samsara, you should REALLY review your practice. It would seem that mindfulness meditation has not sufficed to prevent these criticisms, which were motivated by what? Since emptiness truly cannot be described perfectly in words, words will only help eliminate all that it is not. So, perhaps there is even a little bit of information that these postings could help. But you aren't criticising me, you are criticising teachings from enlightened Masters that have achieved the results that Shakyamuni claimed his followers would experience for themselves.
       
      Sonam


       
       
       
       
       
      As long as space remains, as long as living beings remain, until then - may I too remain to dispel the sufferings of the world. - Master Shantideva
       
       
       


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    • Sandeep
      *Marc, Much noise of spouted parroted nonsense. Now be quiet. Be very quiet and **without rushing to your keyboard, **observe the arising reaction on reading
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 26, 2007
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        Marc,

        Much noise of spouted parroted nonsense.

        Now be quiet.

        Be very quiet and
        without rushing to your keyboard, observe the arising reaction on reading this post.






        Marc Moss wrote:
        A perfect example of how the definition of enlightenment has been mistranslated into some Keith Carradine Kung Foo idea that all you have to do is be in the moment and that's the goal. But, that is just a means. This is not pontification, my friends. This is truth. Truth that requires much more depth of investigation.
         







        <SNIP>

      • medit8ionsociety
        ... mistranslated into some Keith Carradine Kung Foo idea that all you have to do is be in the moment and that s the goal. But, that is just a means. This is
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 26, 2007
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          Marc Moss <jellybean0729@...> wrote:
          >
          > A perfect example of how the definition of enlightenment has been
          mistranslated into some Keith Carradine Kung Foo idea that all you
          have to do is be in the moment and that's the goal. But, that is just
          a means. This is not pontification, my friends. This is truth. Truth
          that requires much more depth of investigation.
          >
          > So, let's start with your idea that all you need is to be in the
          moment.
          >

          Uh, who said that's all you need? I certainly didn't.

          >Fabulous, a great start. But, after a while, and suffering is still
          bombarding you and you have yet to meet with your own Dharmakaya
          expression, maybe you'll be led to investigate what the "moment" is.
          >

          snip of lots of what Kir Li Molari would describe as
          "Words! Words! Words!" and a pretty good example of what the
          pundit in the Zen tea story was doing.

          > As you see, the mind still moving is not in "the moment". If you
          have not reached the ninth level of meditative absorption, ...
          >

          And have you??? Are you "in the moment" or stuck retelling
          your teachers story line? Going back to your criticisms of Dan
          and what he has shared... They presented as condescending and
          lacking compassion and seemed to be just a stage for you
          to "show what you know" while your tea cup overflowed. Having
          read hundreds of Dan's posts, my gut feeling is that he's at an
          unlimited level, not just the ninth, and for decades has been
          Realized or Enlightened or Aware or whatever adjective/adverb
          you like best. And perhaps has much to offer that you could
          learn from.

          > Mindfulness practice is wonderful, and having respect and faith in
          your teacher is best! I applaud you, but careful on the criticisms. If
          you are still experiencing suffering, you are probably not enlightened.
          >

          This seems a critical judgement itself, and relative to suffering...
          would that exclude Jesus from consideration as Enlightened?


          > If you are criticizing someone else's words that were intended to
          help someone out of samsara, you should REALLY review your practice.
          >

          So you're reviewing your practice?


          > It would seem that mindfulness meditation has not sufficed to
          prevent these criticisms, which were motivated by what? Since
          emptiness truly cannot be described perfectly in words, words will
          only help eliminate all that it is not. So, perhaps there is even a
          little bit of information that these postings could help. But you
          aren't criticising me, you are criticising teachings from enlightened
          Masters that have achieved the results that Shakyamuni claimed his
          followers would experience for themselves.
          >
          > Sonam
          >

          Mulitple critical judgements noted!
          Peace and blessings,
          Bob

          >
          > As long as space remains, as long as living beings remain, until
          then - may I too remain to dispel the sufferings of the world. -
          Master Shantideva
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.
          > Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.
          >
        • Marc Moss
          The Buddha gave 84,000 teachings. If you do not believe that and only subscribe to the First Turning doctrines, there was still much wisdom imparted upon his
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 26, 2007
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            The Buddha gave 84,000 teachings. If you do not believe that and only subscribe to the First Turning doctrines, there was still much wisdom imparted upon his disciples, wisdom they had yet to develop. To compare an overflowing cup of tea with a beautiful, overflowing spring of dharma wisdom is to make an erroneous comparison. The Buddha's mind is overflowing with dharma, perhaps the analogy of the Master pouring the cup over was not to point out that the excited student was overflowing with idiocy, but to congratulate him on never tiring of Dharma.
             
            As the Buddha said to Shariputra in the AryaSanghataSutraDharmaparyaya:
            "It is good that you do not tire of Dharma teachings. If the Tathagata can never tire of Dharma teachings, what need is there to say about ordinary beings?"
             
            Sonam Tsering


             
             
             
             
             
            As long as space remains, as long as living beings remain, until then - may I too remain to dispel the sufferings of the world. - Master Shantideva
             
             
             


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          • Marc Moss
            Dear Sanddoop, For a fool in the company of the wise will learn great things even as a wise man keeping company with fools will find himself becoming
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 28, 2007
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              Dear Sanddoop,
               
              "For a fool in the company of the wise will learn great things even as a wise man keeping company with fools will find himself becoming foolish."
               
              I suppose you subscribe to the camp that would say meditation is just sitting and thinking nothing, just seeing blank...is that what the Buddha achieved? So many years in silence and asceticism and all he needed was a good friend with a shovel who also had a good swing.
               
              If you don't want to read the post, move on.
               
              Sonam


               
               
               
               
               
              As long as space remains, as long as living beings remain, until then - may I too remain to dispel the sufferings of the world. - Master Shantideva
               
               
               


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            • Marc Moss
              Dear Sandeep, You asked me to be quiet and observe the reaction to my reading of the post. I am to assume, like you did? You asked me to be quiet, showing some
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 28, 2007
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                Dear Sandeep,
                 
                You asked me to be quiet and observe the reaction to my reading of the post. I am to assume, like you did? You asked me to be quiet, showing some sort of dissatisfaction with my earlier posts...what did you observe that prompted you to ask for my silence. I can tell you with clarity that there is enough paranoia and fear in the world, from ignorance and delusion...and from misinformation.
                 
                I promise you, I will never be quiet as long as there are those that I can help, even in as small as a morsel of food to an animal.
                 
                Observe the reaction here. The parrot throws rocks at the mirror.
                 
                Sonam


                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                As long as space remains, as long as living beings remain, until then - may I too remain to dispel the sufferings of the world. - Master Shantideva
                 
                 
                 


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              • Marc Moss
                Dear Bob, You perceive my words as criticisms. So, when the Buddha gave 84,000 teachings to his students for their various dispositions, would you then have
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 29, 2007
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                  Dear Bob,
                   
                  You perceive my words as criticisms. So, when the Buddha gave 84,000 teachings to his students for their various dispositions, would you then have applied the zen tea story to his career as well?
                   
                  If I or you or anyone is typing, we are not in the moment. This is a level that can only be understood in samadhi. So, no, I am not in the moment as I am telling you this.
                   
                  You have misunderstood my post concerning the nine stages of medititation. They are not states of mind in your normal, walking around and talking life. They are levels of meditation IN MEDITATION. Why are you perceiving what I am saying as some all out attack with anger. I assure you, it has not even crossed my mind.
                   
                  If we cannot share the depth of our lessons with each other, what good is this posting venue? If you felt the need to attack my posts, which for the most part are expressions from other teachers that have shared with me, led me and many others, then perhaps I'm not completely wrong. Your attack in the last post is evident that YOU got angry at me, or disagree with my posts, but felt the need to attack it. Perhaps you should have a cup of tea and move on to another post.
                   
                  You said "This seems critical judgment itself, and relative to suffering...would that exclude Jesus from consideration as Enlightened?" Again, if you disagree, go back to your own personal practice. My postings are to help those who seek it in the spirit of investigation. Your anger is not my problem, though I wish you the best of luck with it if it has benefitted you up to this point. I do not excluded Jesus from having possibly obtained enlightenment. The direct perception of emptiness can be overwhelming, and for those that do not understand it because they are without that experience, one could see calling it "God" as beneficial to those who need to follow that labeling to inspire and cultivate a lifestyle that will bring about the results sought. This is called "skillful means". Perhaps Jesus did see emptiness directly and subsequently understanding its fullness, its completeness explained it as the "kingdom of God". If you turn to the Bible and reread these passages with an understanding of the nature of the Dharmakaya, the Dharmadhatu makes as much sense as the Kingdom of God:
                   
                  Matt 6:33 "But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you."
                  Replacing kingdom with dharmadhatu and God with the Dharmakaya, and you are now dealing with forecasting the results of tantra.
                   
                  Matt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
                   
                  This passage seems very similar to the difference between smon sems and 'jugs sems, the bodhicitta aspiration in the form of a wish and of action.
                   
                  Matt 13:19-23  When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.
                   
                  This passage seems to point out the different capacity of students and the intimate relationship of karma and emptiness (provided we can interchange the kingdom with the direct perception of emptiness).
                   
                  Matt 18:23-35 "Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.' And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii, and seizin him, he began to choke him, saying 'Pay what you owe.' So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you.' He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt. When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place. Then his master summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you? And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.
                   
                  If you remove the poetic allegories, it is not a stretch to see the similarities between this teaching and that of the Buddha in the 'phags pa chos bzhi bsTen pa theg pa chen pa'i mdo (The Mahayana Sutra on the Arya Four Practices). In this sutra, the Buddha teaches the four powers of purifying karma (forgiving or absolving sins): The power of refuge or taking protection in the higher power (keeping this ambiguous), the power of restraint (not commiting the sin again), the activity of regreat (understanding the sin you have committed to be dangerous to you and others) and the activity of remedy or restoration (doing positive deeds to create more possitive potential to counteract the negative of the sin).
                   
                  What I find really interesting about this is its support (either buddhist or christian) in modern understandings of brain chemistry. When one commits an action, a receptor in the brain is receiving the impulse. When it becomes a habit, the receptor and transmitter have become so intimately connected that you cannot just "rip" them apart from each other, you must now create the exact diametric opposite behavior to remove the old habit. The transmitter of the old habit atrophies and the new habit becomes dominant. Now, this is a paraphrasing of the truly remarkable detailing of what's happening, but I think this will suffice for this post.
                   
                  All such listings in the Bible in Jesus' own words seem to indicate, if one lifts the veil of labeling, that he did have a direct perception of emptiness. His teaching by skillful means and in ways that would accord to his students seems to indicate that a higher knowledge was at work. With his teaching that the kingdom "is within", and "there are those with us today that will not taste death before entering the kingdom", he implies the ability to see that kingdom since there is no disparity between us and it.
                   
                  Sure, I believe that Jesus was enlightened. You have jumped the gun to assume that I am trying to show my knowledge for some kind of accolade. But, please - accolades on a webposting with individuals I may never meet in person? I would just as soon write a book and gather disciples. This is a website that is to allow individuals to share their spiritual aspirations and journeys in meditation. If you do not like my posts, you do not have to read them. If you do not agree with my posts, you do not have to read them. If you get angry and assume that I have ill-intentions, they are YOUR thoughts and perceptions and do not correlate with the truth...and you do NOT have to respond to them.
                   
                  Bob, do you not find it interesting that you conclude accusing me of critical judgment with your own detailed critical judgment with a wish for my peace and blessings? Does this not seem to be a contradiction? What would you then encourage? What is the enlightenment we seek? If it's been working for you, have at it and best of luck.
                   
                  I'm just glad that loving parents would never teach their children in the way you would have anyone with knowledge behave. Imagine, the child is in the street and a speeding car comes racing down the road. The mother sees what is happening and realizes she hasn't explained enough why the child shouldn't play in the street. She then, calmly and in a smooth and gentle voice: "you need to get out of the street now. A car is coming and could kill you." The child could barely hear her gentle voice, as it was almost a whisper. "What did you say -" he started to respond but was flattened by the speeding vehicle.
                   
                  Thanks for the lesson Bob, I learned a lot about criticism and patience...and where anger come from.
                   
                  Sonam
                   


                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                  As long as space remains, as long as living beings remain, until then - may I too remain to dispel the sufferings of the world. - Master Shantideva
                   
                   
                   


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                • Marc Moss
                  All spiritual paths lead to the same result. Eventually, any spiritual practice will lead to the same result. One can practice Christianity and it will lead to
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 29, 2007
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                    All spiritual paths lead to the same result. Eventually, any spiritual practice will lead to the same result. One can practice Christianity and it will lead to the desired result. Buddhism will lead to the same result. All of the various schools of each of these, though seem radically different, will still result the same. Hindu practiced well will eventually render the same result.
                     
                    See it as a huge underground water source, and all have built their own well...eventually, we must come to the same source. How many lifetimes will each practice take? Only a fully realized and perfected being could tell us this. Compassion, love, forgiveness, kindness, patiences, and selflessness...parts of each well, but forgotten over the property upon which the well sits.
                     
                    Love and hope for all,
                    Sonam


                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                    As long as space remains, as long as living beings remain, until then - may I too remain to dispel the sufferings of the world. - Master Shantideva
                     
                     
                     


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                  • Daniel Bonekeeper
                    And I m still feeling like I haven t had a satisfactory answer ! LOL Let me put it in a different way: let s say that I work as a jewerly maker... I get gold
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 29, 2007
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                      And I'm still feeling like I haven't had a satisfactory answer ! LOL

                      Let me put it in a different way: let's say that I work as a jewerly maker... I get gold bars and diamonds and transform them into wedding rings. I do that all day long. How can I use "right mindfulness" while doing this ?

                      On 1/29/07, Marc Moss <jellybean0729@...> wrote:


                      Dear Bob,
                       
                      You perceive my words as criticisms. So, when the Buddha gave 84,000 teachings to his students for their various dispositions, would you then have applied the zen tea story to his career as well?
                       
                      If I or you or anyone is typing, we are not in the moment. This is a level that can only be understood in samadhi. So, no, I am not in the moment as I am telling you this.
                       
                      You have misunderstood my post concerning the nine stages of medititation. They are not states of mind in your normal, walking around and talking life. They are levels of meditation IN MEDITATION. Why are you perceiving what I am saying as some all out attack with anger. I assure you, it has not even crossed my mind.
                       
                      If we cannot share the depth of our lessons with each other, what good is this posting venue? If you felt the need to attack my posts, which for the most part are expressions from other teachers that have shared with me, led me and many others, then perhaps I'm not completely wrong. Your attack in the last post is evident that YOU got angry at me, or disagree with my posts, but felt the need to attack it. Perhaps you should have a cup of tea and move on to another post.
                       
                      You said "This seems critical judgment itself, and relative to suffering...would that exclude Jesus from consideration as Enlightened?" Again, if you disagree, go back to your own personal practice. My postings are to help those who seek it in the spirit of investigation. Your anger is not my problem, though I wish you the best of luck with it if it has benefitted you up to this point. I do not excluded Jesus from having possibly obtained enlightenment. The direct perception of emptiness can be overwhelming, and for those that do not understand it because they are without that experience, one could see calling it "God" as beneficial to those who need to follow that labeling to inspire and cultivate a lifestyle that will bring about the results sought. This is called "skillful means". Perhaps Jesus did see emptiness directly and subsequently understanding its fullness, its completeness explained it as the "kingdom of God". If you turn to the Bible and reread these passages with an understanding of the nature of the Dharmakaya, the Dharmadhatu makes as much sense as the Kingdom of God:
                       
                      Matt 6:33 "But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you."
                      Replacing kingdom with dharmadhatu and God with the Dharmakaya, and you are now dealing with forecasting the results of tantra.
                       
                      Matt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
                       
                      This passage seems very similar to the difference between smon sems and 'jugs sems, the bodhicitta aspiration in the form of a wish and of action.
                       
                      Matt 13:19-23  When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.
                       
                      This passage seems to point out the different capacity of students and the intimate relationship of karma and emptiness (provided we can interchange the kingdom with the direct perception of emptiness).
                       
                      Matt 18:23-35 "Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.' And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii, and seizin him, he began to choke him, saying 'Pay what you owe.' So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you.' He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt. When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place. Then his master summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you? And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.
                       
                      If you remove the poetic allegories, it is not a stretch to see the similarities between this teaching and that of the Buddha in the 'phags pa chos bzhi bsTen pa theg pa chen pa'i mdo (The Mahayana Sutra on the Arya Four Practices). In this sutra, the Buddha teaches the four powers of purifying karma (forgiving or absolving sins): The power of refuge or taking protection in the higher power (keeping this ambiguous), the power of restraint (not commiting the sin again), the activity of regreat (understanding the sin you have committed to be dangerous to you and others) and the activity of remedy or restoration (doing positive deeds to create more possitive potential to counteract the negative of the sin).
                       
                      What I find really interesting about this is its support (either buddhist or christian) in modern understandings of brain chemistry. When one commits an action, a receptor in the brain is receiving the impulse. When it becomes a habit, the receptor and transmitter have become so intimately connected that you cannot just "rip" them apart from each other, you must now create the exact diametric opposite behavior to remove the old habit. The transmitter of the old habit atrophies and the new habit becomes dominant. Now, this is a paraphrasing of the truly remarkable detailing of what's happening, but I think this will suffice for this post.
                       
                      All such listings in the Bible in Jesus' own words seem to indicate, if one lifts the veil of labeling, that he did have a direct perception of emptiness. His teaching by skillful means and in ways that would accord to his students seems to indicate that a higher knowledge was at work. With his teaching that the kingdom "is within", and "there are those with us today that will not taste death before entering the kingdom", he implies the ability to see that kingdom since there is no disparity between us and it.
                       
                      Sure, I believe that Jesus was enlightened. You have jumped the gun to assume that I am trying to show my knowledge for some kind of accolade. But, please - accolades on a webposting with individuals I may never meet in person? I would just as soon write a book and gather disciples. This is a website that is to allow individuals to share their spiritual aspirations and journeys in meditation. If you do not like my posts, you do not have to read them. If you do not agree with my posts, you do not have to read them. If you get angry and assume that I have ill-intentions, they are YOUR thoughts and perceptions and do not correlate with the truth...and you do NOT have to respond to them.
                       
                      Bob, do you not find it interesting that you conclude accusing me of critical judgment with your own detailed critical judgment with a wish for my peace and blessings? Does this not seem to be a contradiction? What would you then encourage? What is the enlightenment we seek? If it's been working for you, have at it and best of luck.
                       
                      I'm just glad that loving parents would never teach their children in the way you would have anyone with knowledge behave. Imagine, the child is in the street and a speeding car comes racing down the road. The mother sees what is happening and realizes she hasn't explained enough why the child shouldn't play in the street. She then, calmly and in a smooth and gentle voice: "you need to get out of the street now. A car is coming and could kill you." The child could barely hear her gentle voice, as it was almost a whisper. "What did you say -" he started to respond but was flattened by the speeding vehicle.
                       
                      Thanks for the lesson Bob, I learned a lot about criticism and patience...and where anger come from.
                       
                      Sonam
                       


                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                      As long as space remains, as long as living beings remain, until then - may I too remain to dispel the sufferings of the world. - Master Shantideva
                       
                       
                       


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                      --
                      "Today, a young man tripping on LSD realized that all matter is merely energy condensed through a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, life is only a dream, and we are all our own imagination. And now here's Tom with the weather. Tom?"
                    • Marc Moss
                      Dear Danieal, Dear Daniel, There are many different options available to suit an array of dispositions. Here are a few options from me, and I hope others will
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jan 29, 2007
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                        Dear Danieal,
                        Dear Daniel,
                         
                        There are many different options available to suit an array of dispositions. Here are a few options from me, and I hope others will oblige with their own suggestions:
                         
                        Simply, be present in each thought as you conduct your activities. As you take a breath in, be aware that you are breathing in; as you breathe out, be aware that you are exhaling. Simply try to keep the mind on the activity you are doing. Try to be aware when the mind wanders off onto other thoughts, and gently bring it back to the activity. If you are shaping gold, be completely absorbed in the activity of shaping the gold. If you are placing a diamond into a mounting, be aware that you are doing this. Each little movement of mind should be devoted to the activity. At least, you will develop better product. Your mind will be devoted single-pointedly to your product and this should render less mistakes.
                         
                        Try to keep your breathing even and equal in inhale and exhale. This kind of breathing is precisely the manner in which a healthy individual breathes when they are "in their mode". When we are content, free of anxiety and stress or excitement, we breathe like this. Forcing ourselves to breathe in this manner will assist in calming the mind. "Joy can bring a smile, and smile can bring joy."

                        Now, as these activities are movements of mind, we are actually training the mind to reduce and eliminate distractions to benefit our sitting meditation. To have a direct perception of emptiness, you cannot have a movement of mind. You have to develop your mental faculties in such a way that the distractions are completely eliminated, and movement of mind is a distraction. During deepest meditation, one is withdrawn from the senses. If your mind moves to a sound, you are having a movement of mind and that prevents one from samadhi. So, during your everyday work, it is best if you can place your mind again and again on just the activity that you are pursuing, and eliminate any other thoughts that are of no consequence to the task.
                         
                        Since emptiness and karma are intimately connected, if you can use your imagination to create good karma during your tasks, this is best. Since you work with diamonds, you are working with something that many sages used as a symbol for emptiness. A diamond is the hardest natural substance on earth. Only a diamond can cut another diamond. Emptiness metaphorically can even cut diamonds...that is the metaphor used in the Diamond Cutter Sutra (mistranslated simply as Diamond Sutra, but Vajrachedika means diamond cutter, an important point in the translation for its valuable analogy), and emptiness even cuts itself. After the direct experience of emptiness in the first level of form realm meditation, one understands this analogy, understands that emptiness surrounds you. If you were surrounded by a wall of pure diamond, clear and colorless, you wouldn't even know it...so it is with emptiness. So, in your activities, since things do not inherently exhist, it is very powerful to imagine that you are doing the deeds that you are doing for the benefit of all other beings.
                         
                        As you are shaping the gold, imagine that you are giving precious gifts to all beings. As you place the diamond, imagine that you are teaching about emptiness to students whose minds are ripe. As you polish the gold, you can imagine that you are teaching all beings the Buddha's teachings, the holy Dharma, or that you are giving any material assistance to beings. At the conclusion of your task, dedicate any merit that you have created towards being able to achieve enlightenment for all beings, or towards learning a teaching with which you are struggling. Because things do not inherently exist, it is important to remember that the task you are doing, the objects with which you work and even YOU are void of existing inherently. That means that the data that your mind is organizing from the senses that have collected it (data) is being forced by karma to generate the images that you see and interact with...but better karma would organize that data differently. That is how tantra works - using the karmic mechanism in such a way to render a result faster. So, have no concrete senses of self and action and object...for that is not the way they truly exist. See it as a flow that is forced to render the waves of experience now from the drop into that stream from a past action.
                         
                        When you make wedding rings, it can be very beneficial to imagine that your efforts are benefitting the future couple, and you are giving lasting love and compassion to all beings.
                         
                        There are many interesting scientific studies on focused thought such as what we are discussing and the benefits even in material forms in our surroundings. Focusing your thoughts of compassion and love into your work is sure to have some benefit to those who will purchase and own them. And it will benefit your mind so much more.
                         
                        Dedication is very powerful in preventing normal, ignorant karma from being used up. You simply make a dedication with heartfelt sincerity toward the goal, and it is much more powerful.
                         
                        Does that help you in any way Daniel? I hope so.
                         
                        Sonam


                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                        As long as space remains, as long as living beings remain, until then - may I too remain to dispel the sufferings of the world. - Master Shantideva
                         
                         
                         


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                      • Daniel Bonekeeper
                        Hi Sonam ! Thanks for your thoughtful post, that s exactly what I needed to know. So, in other words, right mindfulness is not letting the mind wander while
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jan 29, 2007
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                          Hi Sonam !

                          Thanks for your thoughtful post, that's exactly what I needed to know. So, in other words, "right mindfulness" is not letting the mind wander while you are doing something, but instead being present and conscious of what you are doing and keeping your focus and thoughts solely on the action that you are doing, for the benefit of having a sharper focus or ability to not wander while on sitting meditation. Right ?

                          Thanks for taking the time to answer this !
                          Daniel

                          On 1/29/07, Marc Moss <jellybean0729@...> wrote:

                          Dear Danieal,
                          Dear Daniel,
                           
                          There are many different options available to suit an array of dispositions. Here are a few options from me, and I hope others will oblige with their own suggestions:
                           
                          Simply, be present in each thought as you conduct your activities. As you take a breath in, be aware that you are breathing in; as you breathe out, be aware that you are exhaling. Simply try to keep the mind on the activity you are doing. Try to be aware when the mind wanders off onto other thoughts, and gently bring it back to the activity. If you are shaping gold, be completely absorbed in the activity of shaping the gold. If you are placing a diamond into a mounting, be aware that you are doing this. Each little movement of mind should be devoted to the activity. At least, you will develop better product. Your mind will be devoted single-pointedly to your product and this should render less mistakes.
                           
                          Try to keep your breathing even and equal in inhale and exhale. This kind of breathing is precisely the manner in which a healthy individual breathes when they are "in their mode". When we are content, free of anxiety and stress or excitement, we breathe like this. Forcing ourselves to breathe in this manner will assist in calming the mind. "Joy can bring a smile, and smile can bring joy."

                          Now, as these activities are movements of mind, we are actually training the mind to reduce and eliminate distractions to benefit our sitting meditation. To have a direct perception of emptiness, you cannot have a movement of mind. You have to develop your mental faculties in such a way that the distractions are completely eliminated, and movement of mind is a distraction. During deepest meditation, one is withdrawn from the senses. If your mind moves to a sound, you are having a movement of mind and that prevents one from samadhi. So, during your everyday work, it is best if you can place your mind again and again on just the activity that you are pursuing, and eliminate any other thoughts that are of no consequence to the task.
                           
                          Since emptiness and karma are intimately connected, if you can use your imagination to create good karma during your tasks, this is best. Since you work with diamonds, you are working with something that many sages used as a symbol for emptiness. A diamond is the hardest natural substance on earth. Only a diamond can cut another diamond. Emptiness metaphorically can even cut diamonds...that is the metaphor used in the Diamond Cutter Sutra (mistranslated simply as Diamond Sutra, but Vajrachedika means diamond cutter, an important point in the translation for its valuable analogy), and emptiness even cuts itself. After the direct experience of emptiness in the first level of form realm meditation, one understands this analogy, understands that emptiness surrounds you. If you were surrounded by a wall of pure diamond, clear and colorless, you wouldn't even know it...so it is with emptiness. So, in your activities, since things do not inherently exhist, it is very powerful to imagine that you are doing the deeds that you are doing for the benefit of all other beings.
                           
                          As you are shaping the gold, imagine that you are giving precious gifts to all beings. As you place the diamond, imagine that you are teaching about emptiness to students whose minds are ripe. As you polish the gold, you can imagine that you are teaching all beings the Buddha's teachings, the holy Dharma, or that you are giving any material assistance to beings. At the conclusion of your task, dedicate any merit that you have created towards being able to achieve enlightenment for all beings, or towards learning a teaching with which you are struggling. Because things do not inherently exist, it is important to remember that the task you are doing, the objects with which you work and even YOU are void of existing inherently. That means that the data that your mind is organizing from the senses that have collected it (data) is being forced by karma to generate the images that you see and interact with...but better karma would organize that data differently. That is how tantra works - using the karmic mechanism in such a way to render a result faster. So, have no concrete senses of self and action and object...for that is not the way they truly exist. See it as a flow that is forced to render the waves of experience now from the drop into that stream from a past action.
                           
                          When you make wedding rings, it can be very beneficial to imagine that your efforts are benefitting the future couple, and you are giving lasting love and compassion to all beings.
                           
                          There are many interesting scientific studies on focused thought such as what we are discussing and the benefits even in material forms in our surroundings. Focusing your thoughts of compassion and love into your work is sure to have some benefit to those who will purchase and own them. And it will benefit your mind so much more.
                           
                          Dedication is very powerful in preventing normal, ignorant karma from being used up. You simply make a dedication with heartfelt sincerity toward the goal, and it is much more powerful.
                           
                          Does that help you in any way Daniel? I hope so.
                           
                          Sonam


                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                          As long as space remains, as long as living beings remain, until then - may I too remain to dispel the sufferings of the world. - Master Shantideva
                           
                           
                           


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                          --
                          "Today, a young man tripping on LSD realized that all matter is merely energy condensed through a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, life is only a dream, and we are all our own imagination. And now here's Tom with the weather. Tom?"
                        • Sandeep
                          ... *See the doing as just that. The transformation of gold bars and diamonds of a particular shape and form morphing into a different shape and form. The
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jan 29, 2007
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                            Daniel Bonekeeper wrote:

                            And I'm still feeling like I haven't had a satisfactory answer ! LOL

                            Let me put it in a different way: let's say that I work as a jewerly maker... I get gold bars and diamonds and transform them into wedding rings. I do that all day long. How can I use "right mindfulness" while doing this ?







                            See the doing as just that.

                            The transformation of gold bars and diamonds of a particular shape and form morphing into a different shape and form.
                            The transformation of shape and form brings about a substantial increase in the value, but nothing has really changed.
                            The differential value of a wedding ring as compared to the basic ingredients........how does this come about?
                            Obviously the differential value is due to a "valuer" who values differently.
                            Otherwise, a wedding ring is just the summation of the raw materials.

                            Exactly in the same way, a diamond is a DIAMOND to someone, otherwise it is no different to a piece of coal.

                            Meaning, agenda, goals to be be achieved (spiritual or material), techniques to achieve these goals, asserting and defending these techniques/ these goals as they have themselves become  one's self identity.....

                            .....this entire enchilada .........is  of relevance to whom?

                            As............ through a pair of hands ........ gold bars takes the shape of rings and diamonds get set....


                            .....being in the quest.....


                            ......to whom is this changing transformation........a changing spectacle?

                             
                             



                          • Marc Moss
                            Daniel, Correct. But a deeper application as prescribed by the Buddha in the second turning was that having right mindfulness also applies to correct world
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jan 29, 2007
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                              Daniel,
                               
                              Correct. But a deeper application as prescribed by the Buddha in the second turning was that having right mindfulness also applies to correct world view. This is a difficult one to maintain and it involves the understanding and application of emptiness.
                               
                              Things do not inherently exist, they are not self powered and they are not concrete... they are ever changing and are dependent on consciousness for their origination. Now, in an earlier school interpretation on this, one can say that things dependently arise due to causes...like manufacturers caused this computer. But when treated with the ultimate, this does not aid in the complete removal of afflictions. The FACT that you have given information to others in the past is the reason you are able to receive information now...via this computer. Cause and effect are separated by a greater gap than we normally see, and having wrong view would be thinking that a concrete, permanent, self powered thing in front of you is a result of buying it. That is a different cause. Try it this way:
                               
                              If you lied to a person and told them something that you believed would get you a lot of money and the person GAVE you the money, you would be led to believe that the lie caused the attractive result of receiving the money. Even Jesus would say this is not the case (reaping what you sow). But, if a lie is the cause, lies should always produce attractive results. You are receiving the money, the attractive result of getting, because you gave in the past. The lie becomes a cause for a future result (ie people won't believe what you tell them, other people lie to you, etc). So, you see correct world-view is seeing that the cause and the result are relative. But, in emptiness, there is no you, there is no creating of karma, and there is no karma...because they are just flows, waves...projections. This does not mean that you can just do whatever because things are empty. They exist because they are projections...they are not projections because they exist. This is correct world-view, right mindfulness.
                               
                              This helps us by planting the correct karmic seeds to ripen beneficially for us and others in the future. You see, knowing that the computer is dependent on the manufacturer only tells you about the "how" of phenomena, it does little about the perceptual laws that are working, or karmic laws. When you understand that the things that are arising within your perceptual field because of your actions, you can understand their emptiness, their voidness of self-nature...that that is the ONLY ontological status that they have, the only state of being. They are arising because you created them within the parameters of this perceptual law...and it is within this same perceptual law that you can create the correct karmic seeds to one day see yourself as an enlightened being.
                               
                              If things were NOT empty, that is if they DID exist from their own side and had some essence or self-nature, they could not undergo change and then the whole scope of the Four Arya Truths could not work. Suffering would always affect us, things would always come AT us. This is not the case, for the Buddha achieved enlightenment. What does nirvana mean? Nirvana literally means a "blowing out", the fires of ignorance. When we blow out these fires of ignorance, we see reality as it really is. Currently, from this ignorance, there is a disparity between the way things appear and the way they actually are.
                               
                              Having right mindfulness is maintaining the correct world-view and using the mechanism correctly to see yourself become an enlightened being to benefit others. That which we do to others is exactly doing them to an aspect of ourselves, and that is what brings about our results.
                               
                              Bless you and if I can find any more information for you, please let me know. May we all see each other in Tushita!!!
                               
                              Sonam


                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                              As long as space remains, as long as living beings remain, until then - may I too remain to dispel the sufferings of the world. - Master Shantideva
                               
                               
                               


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                            • Marc Moss
                              Daniel, Here s a terrific point to share: In a room, there are three beings. There s a human, a preta, and an enlightened being. In the middle of the room,
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jan 29, 2007
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                                Daniel,
                                 
                                Here's a terrific point to share:
                                 
                                In a room, there are three beings. There's a human, a preta, and an enlightened being. In the middle of the room, there is a diamond, a large pure diamond. The light refracts and the human sees yellow. From the preta's angle, he sees blue...and the enlightened being sees red. Who's perception is valid?
                                 
                                A valid perception is anything which appears to an unaffected state of mind. Unaffected means that it is not under the influence of alcohol or an acid trip, on a moving vehicle, or under severe emotional stress. Therefore, they are all having a valid perception.
                                 
                                Now, it is true that the value of things is in the one applying the value to the thing. But, the thing itself has a basis for which we are all having parallel perceptions toward. That means that if someone tells you that a dog could just as easily be a shoe to you, they are seriously mistaken. A dog and a shoe have different CONVENTIONAL bases for definitions. A dog is not something that you put on your feet to keep them warm, and you don't pet shoes. A failure to understand the conventional is what becomes defined as insane, or uncommon. They do not ULTIMATELY exist by the definitions that we give them, but they are a product of your perceptions and to deny that they exist in a manner that contradicts they're conventional reality is borderline nihilism. They are empty of inherent existence. Emptiness does not DENY they're conventional existence but DEFINE it.
                                 
                                If you want to see that diamond as red, you have to get up and move from your spot to where the enlightened being is...seeing it red. If you do not want to see it blue, don't do the things that are gonna make you get up and sit where the preta sees it refract as blue. We have to make a change, we have to get up and move to another point where the light is refracting in a different color...or better yet, no color.
                                 
                                Sonam


                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                As long as space remains, as long as living beings remain, until then - may I too remain to dispel the sufferings of the world. - Master Shantideva
                                 
                                 
                                 


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                              • dan330033
                                ... wedding rings. ... doing this ? Undivided present being aware, with no division between the one being aware, and that of which one is aware. Relaxed, open,
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jan 30, 2007
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                                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Bonekeeper"
                                  <bonekeeper@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > And I'm still feeling like I haven't had a satisfactory answer ! LOL
                                  >
                                  > Let me put it in a different way: let's say that I work as a jewerly
                                  > maker... I get gold bars and diamonds and transform them into
                                  wedding rings.
                                  > I do that all day long. How can I use "right mindfulness" while
                                  doing this ?

                                  Undivided present being aware, with no division between the one being
                                  aware, and that of which one is aware.

                                  Relaxed, open, aware (not the sense of effort of one apart trying to
                                  enter into or be the moment as is).

                                  Being the moment as is, no separation, no division.

                                  Middle-wayed being-aware: no separated self involved in speculating
                                  about its past or future. No extraneous thought needed or invested in.

                                  "When eating, eat. When sleeping, sleep." When making a ring, fully
                                  attentive to and as each moment of ring-construction.

                                  -- Dan
                                • dan330033
                                  ... Kir Li Molari has been shown to be correct in his observation, with many examples having been provided. ... Take away unneeded opinion and see what
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Feb 8 2:32 PM
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                                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
                                    <no_reply@...> wrote:

                                    > snip of lots of what Kir Li Molari would describe as
                                    > "Words! Words! Words!" and a pretty good example of what the
                                    > pundit in the Zen tea story was doing.

                                    Kir Li Molari has been shown to be correct in his observation, with
                                    many examples having been provided.


                                    > Mulitple critical judgements noted!

                                    Take away unneeded opinion and see what remains.

                                    Very simple.

                                    ;-)

                                    -- Dan
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