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[Meditation Society of America] Re: Introduction to myself/enlightenment 101

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  • aideenmck
    Hi, Ben I think what Jeff means is that it s not the experience of clairvoyance that s the potential trap, but rather one s attachment to it. Is that right,
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 16, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi, Ben

      I think what Jeff means is that it's not the experience of
      clairvoyance that's the potential trap, but rather one's attachment
      to it.
      Is that right, Jeff?

      Aideen


      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Buehne
      <benbuehne@...> wrote:
      >
      > Thanks Jeff-
      >
      > I think I understand what you are saying but I would
      > like to clarify. Basicly, there is a part of me, in
      > my nature, that retains this anger and anxiety. While
      > I may have been clairvoyant before... what I am seeing
      > now may not, in fact, be this clairvoyance but this
      > anger and anxiety sneeking into my conciousness.
      > Possibly to frighten me out of continuing to seek
      > enlightenment. Is this correct?
      >
      > Also, how can such a thing "rob us from ground
      > gained"? What do you need to do in order to avoid
      > such a thing?
      >
      > I realize I am inexperienced so I appreciate your help
      > (everyone in the group for that matter). This state
      > is actually not something I initially desired... I was
      > simply trying to relax and it happened (interestingly
      > enough it was the first time I had meditated outside).
      > I want to let you know that I am humble and realize
      > how "green" I am... I am simply a person who has taken
      > to the art with significantly more ease than others.
      > Your help is greatly appreciated.
      >
      > Thank you for your response,
      > Ben
      > P.S. Do you know of anyone in the chicagoland area
      > that is experienced enough to help me with such
      > matters?
      >
      > --- Jeff Belyea <jeff@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Hi Ben -
      > >
      > > While the mystic experience is rare,
      > > this group most probably has several,
      > > if not quite a few, who can relate
      > > to your story from similar direct
      > > experience.
      > >
      > > The shift to what you wrote of as,
      > > "consciousness of everything" and the
      > > clarity, compassion and comfort
      > > (peace of mind)is a common result.
      > > The clairvoyant part, and the
      > > occasions of deja vu, are not as
      > > common, but many people report them,
      > > as well.
      > >
      > > My experience, personally, and in
      > > teaching meditation for the past 30
      > > years has been that the former level
      > > of conscious of which you wrote -
      > > that anxious, needy "former self"
      > > - often referred to as "ego",
      > > is very sneaky, and does not
      > > give up its attempt to regain the
      > > dominant position in our consciousness.
      > >
      > > "It" can impose upon our imagination
      > > in the guise of clairvoyance. In
      > > this way, it will play upon our
      > > "spiritual pride" and can trap us
      > > in a return to "vain imaginings"
      > > that are not a product of our
      > > enlightenment. This is quicksand,
      > > and can rob us of the ground gained,
      > > in great part. It takes keen
      > > discernment and abject honesty
      > > with ourselves to be able to spot
      > > this distinction.
      > >
      > > This is when a mature teacher or
      > > "guru" can help guide an innocently
      > > deluded "seeker" who has egoistically
      > > talked themselves into claiming
      > > enlightenment or even "Guru" status,
      > > (Jody and Bruce - members here, can
      > > speak knowledgeably, and sometimes
      > > a bit jadedly, about this) and newbie
      > > enlightened ones.
      > >
      > > Even when the enlightenment
      > > experience seems, and is "known"
      > > as, absolutely complete, there is
      > > still a maintenance that is
      > > required to continue to reap
      > > the harvest of this new level
      > > of consciousness. It is easy to
      > > ignore this, because the new
      > > enlightenment is so pure and
      > > powerful that it feel invulnerable.
      > >
      > > In great part, it is, but while
      > > we are still living in the material
      > > world (thanks, Madonna) we are
      > > subject to a "warring" faction -
      > > in our own internal lives - as we see
      > > manifested externally in the worldly
      > > activity of war in the name of God.
      > >
      > > A red flag for spotting this activity is
      > > is when we feel a negative anticipation,
      > > or stuggle. The ego feeds on struggle
      > > and will step up the internal dialogue.
      > > And this is the antithesis of meditation
      > > as a waking consciousness. If we feed
      > > the struggle, we are in effect giving
      > > up our enlightened consciousness, which
      > > is above circumstance, and returning
      > > to a rationally-dominant concern.
      > >
      > > The logical or rational argument
      > > convincingly says we must be concerned
      > > and do our part. But our part is to
      > > maintain the enlightened perspective
      > > and bring peace by our positive
      > > energy and en-"light"ened view.
      > > This alone will contribute to the
      > > change of consciousness, and shift
      > > in awareness, on a global scale that
      > > so many awakened teacher "know" as
      > > the destiny of humankind. Whoops,
      > > getting a little lofty now.
      > >
      > > I'll stop here. If you find some
      > > resonance with this, let me know,
      > > and I'll be happy to follow up with
      > > you privately.
      > >
      > > Peace,
      > >
      > > Jeff
      > >
      > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
      > > Benjamin Buehne
      > > <benbuehne@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hi everyone,
      > > > My name is Ben and I just joined. It is nice
      > > > that such a place exists, I have struggled to find
      > > > others to relate to as far as my experiences
      > > > meditating go. Basicly no one else I know does
      > > it. I
      > > > thought I would take this opportunity to share
      > > with
      > > > the group as far as who I am and what my
      > > experiences
      > > > have been like to see if anyone can relate.
      > > >
      > > > I used to be a fairly confused person. I
      > > would
      > > > generally be filled with an anger and anxiety. I
      > > > wasn't too fun to be around. 1 day I had a panic
      > > > attack... they continued and actually got stronger
      > > as
      > > > I had more of them.
      > > >
      > > > I heard about the effects of meditation and
      > > gave
      > > > it a shot. It worked fairly well for me... I
      > > wasn't
      > > > as angry and the panic attacks stopped. I made
      > > > meditation a regular habit although I didn't have
      > > > panic attacks, just to maintain. I taught myself
      > > how
      > > > to do this.
      > > >
      > > > One day, something happened though. I was
      > > > actually in college and studying for finals. I
      > > was
      > > > feeling stressed out so I decided to meditate. It
      > > was
      > > > then that I had what others have described as a
      > > mystic
      > > > experience. A conciousness of everything, without
      > > > thought. I was filled with energy afterwords and
      > > a
      > > > sense of elightment.
      > > >
      > > > It was then that I started to notice changes
      > > in
      > > > myself. I wouldn't ever lose my temper. Nothing
      > > > really got to me... anxiety wasn't an issue and I
      > > no
      > > > longer had fears that I previously had. I went
      > > from a
      > > > C student to an A student. I felt more compassion
      > > for
      > > > others. Although I was raised catholic...
      > > previously
      > > > I hadn't been very religious. Afterwords I was
      > > > certain of there being something else...
      > > >
      > > > Having this mystic experience became fairly
      > > easy
      > > > for me. I would be able to achieve it almost
      > > every
      > > > time I meditated. It was at this point in time
      > > that I
      > > > noticed a clairvoyance. I had prior knowledge of
      > > the
      > > > future.
      > > >
      > > > Now many may call me crazy... but I work in
      > > the
      > > > mental health field and really experience no
      > > symptoms
      > > > of mental illness. This clairvoyance can be
      > > > described. It's like deja-vu. It is as if I
      > > remember
      > > > these things... although at times I need something
      > > to
      > > > jog my memory (a trigger). Then, later... I watch
      > > as
      > > > things happened exactly as I had "remembered."
      > > >
      > > > This did disturb me however... I didn't
      > > always
      > > > like what I saw. For a period of time I stopped
      > > > meditating in hopes that this would go away... and
      > > to
      > > > an extent it did. However, I was drawn back into
      > > > meditating and again took to it with ease.
      > > >
      > > > That brings me to why I am here... as again
      > > with
      > > > meditating I have the mystic experience. I again
      > > was
      > > > clairvoyant... which was fine until recently.
      > > > Recently , again, what I have seen has disturbed
      > > me.
      > > > I am talking about things on a global scale as
      > > well...
      > >
      > === message truncated ===
      >
      >
      >
      > __________________________________________________
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      > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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    • Jeff Belyea
      ... I don t want to to add confusion, but your nature is not angry and anxious. That is learned behavior and reactionary rather than original thinking. What
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 16, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Buehne
        <benbuehne@...> wrote:
        >
        > Thanks Jeff-
        >
        > I think I understand what you are saying but I would
        > like to clarify. Basicly, there is a part of me, in
        > my nature, that retains this anger and anxiety.

        I don't want to to add confusion, but your "nature"
        is not angry and anxious. That is learned behavior
        and reactionary rather than original thinking.

        What you experienced (and experience) from meditation -
        the lack of anger and anxiety, the peace of mind and
        compassion; those are your "nature".


        While
        > I may have been clairvoyant before... what I am seeing
        > now may not, in fact, be this clairvoyance but this
        > anger and anxiety sneeking into my conciousness.
        > Possibly to frighten me out of continuing to seek
        > enlightenment. Is this correct?

        Yes. Clairvoyance may be genuine - up to a point. When
        the seeming clarivoyance produces anger and/or anxiety,
        that is a product of the "ego", the linear, rational,
        conditioned mind, doing exactly what you discribe above.
        When you experienced release from this, you where
        connecting to the genuine "you". As you "seek" enlightenment,
        the ego is threatened. But I wonder why you put the
        continuance of your journey in those terms. You have
        experienced enlightenment. Rather than seek it, just
        accept it and let it "present itself" to you. This will
        lead you to an effortless, productive and joyful life.

        >
        > Also, how can such a thing "rob us from ground
        > gained"? What do you need to do in order to avoid
        > such a thing?

        Clarivoyance or any "gift" or "powers" are toys compared
        to enlightenment. They are trinkets. When we become
        fascinated by them, we are in "leaving" the realm of
        enlightened thought and experience, and the more we
        allow ourselves to be swept up with these thoughts -
        those that are negative and anxiety producing, the more
        we "rehearse". See my previous
        paragraph. More later. My show is upcoming.



        >
        > I realize I am inexperienced so I appreciate your help
        > (everyone in the group for that matter). This state
        > is actually not something I initially desired... I was
        > simply trying to relax and it happened (interestingly
        > enough it was the first time I had meditated outside).
        > I want to let you know that I am humble and realize
        > how "green" I am... I am simply a person who has taken
        > to the art with significantly more ease than others.
        > Your help is greatly appreciated.
        >
        > Thank you for your response,
        > Ben
        > P.S. Do you know of anyone in the chicagoland area
        > that is experienced enough to help me with such
        > matters?
        >
        > --- Jeff Belyea <jeff@...> wrote:
        >
        > > Hi Ben -
        > >
        > > While the mystic experience is rare,
        > > this group most probably has several,
        > > if not quite a few, who can relate
        > > to your story from similar direct
        > > experience.
        > >
        > > The shift to what you wrote of as,
        > > "consciousness of everything" and the
        > > clarity, compassion and comfort
        > > (peace of mind)is a common result.
        > > The clairvoyant part, and the
        > > occasions of deja vu, are not as
        > > common, but many people report them,
        > > as well.
        > >
        > > My experience, personally, and in
        > > teaching meditation for the past 30
        > > years has been that the former level
        > > of conscious of which you wrote -
        > > that anxious, needy "former self"
        > > - often referred to as "ego",
        > > is very sneaky, and does not
        > > give up its attempt to regain the
        > > dominant position in our consciousness.
        > >
        > > "It" can impose upon our imagination
        > > in the guise of clairvoyance. In
        > > this way, it will play upon our
        > > "spiritual pride" and can trap us
        > > in a return to "vain imaginings"
        > > that are not a product of our
        > > enlightenment. This is quicksand,
        > > and can rob us of the ground gained,
        > > in great part. It takes keen
        > > discernment and abject honesty
        > > with ourselves to be able to spot
        > > this distinction.
        > >
        > > This is when a mature teacher or
        > > "guru" can help guide an innocently
        > > deluded "seeker" who has egoistically
        > > talked themselves into claiming
        > > enlightenment or even "Guru" status,
        > > (Jody and Bruce - members here, can
        > > speak knowledgeably, and sometimes
        > > a bit jadedly, about this) and newbie
        > > enlightened ones.
        > >
        > > Even when the enlightenment
        > > experience seems, and is "known"
        > > as, absolutely complete, there is
        > > still a maintenance that is
        > > required to continue to reap
        > > the harvest of this new level
        > > of consciousness. It is easy to
        > > ignore this, because the new
        > > enlightenment is so pure and
        > > powerful that it feel invulnerable.
        > >
        > > In great part, it is, but while
        > > we are still living in the material
        > > world (thanks, Madonna) we are
        > > subject to a "warring" faction -
        > > in our own internal lives - as we see
        > > manifested externally in the worldly
        > > activity of war in the name of God.
        > >
        > > A red flag for spotting this activity is
        > > is when we feel a negative anticipation,
        > > or stuggle. The ego feeds on struggle
        > > and will step up the internal dialogue.
        > > And this is the antithesis of meditation
        > > as a waking consciousness. If we feed
        > > the struggle, we are in effect giving
        > > up our enlightened consciousness, which
        > > is above circumstance, and returning
        > > to a rationally-dominant concern.
        > >
        > > The logical or rational argument
        > > convincingly says we must be concerned
        > > and do our part. But our part is to
        > > maintain the enlightened perspective
        > > and bring peace by our positive
        > > energy and en-"light"ened view.
        > > This alone will contribute to the
        > > change of consciousness, and shift
        > > in awareness, on a global scale that
        > > so many awakened teacher "know" as
        > > the destiny of humankind. Whoops,
        > > getting a little lofty now.
        > >
        > > I'll stop here. If you find some
        > > resonance with this, let me know,
        > > and I'll be happy to follow up with
        > > you privately.
        > >
        > > Peace,
        > >
        > > Jeff
        > >
        > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
        > > Benjamin Buehne
        > > <benbuehne@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hi everyone,
        > > > My name is Ben and I just joined. It is nice
        > > > that such a place exists, I have struggled to find
        > > > others to relate to as far as my experiences
        > > > meditating go. Basicly no one else I know does
        > > it. I
        > > > thought I would take this opportunity to share
        > > with
        > > > the group as far as who I am and what my
        > > experiences
        > > > have been like to see if anyone can relate.
        > > >
        > > > I used to be a fairly confused person. I
        > > would
        > > > generally be filled with an anger and anxiety. I
        > > > wasn't too fun to be around. 1 day I had a panic
        > > > attack... they continued and actually got stronger
        > > as
        > > > I had more of them.
        > > >
        > > > I heard about the effects of meditation and
        > > gave
        > > > it a shot. It worked fairly well for me... I
        > > wasn't
        > > > as angry and the panic attacks stopped. I made
        > > > meditation a regular habit although I didn't have
        > > > panic attacks, just to maintain. I taught myself
        > > how
        > > > to do this.
        > > >
        > > > One day, something happened though. I was
        > > > actually in college and studying for finals. I
        > > was
        > > > feeling stressed out so I decided to meditate. It
        > > was
        > > > then that I had what others have described as a
        > > mystic
        > > > experience. A conciousness of everything, without
        > > > thought. I was filled with energy afterwords and
        > > a
        > > > sense of elightment.
        > > >
        > > > It was then that I started to notice changes
        > > in
        > > > myself. I wouldn't ever lose my temper. Nothing
        > > > really got to me... anxiety wasn't an issue and I
        > > no
        > > > longer had fears that I previously had. I went
        > > from a
        > > > C student to an A student. I felt more compassion
        > > for
        > > > others. Although I was raised catholic...
        > > previously
        > > > I hadn't been very religious. Afterwords I was
        > > > certain of there being something else...
        > > >
        > > > Having this mystic experience became fairly
        > > easy
        > > > for me. I would be able to achieve it almost
        > > every
        > > > time I meditated. It was at this point in time
        > > that I
        > > > noticed a clairvoyance. I had prior knowledge of
        > > the
        > > > future.
        > > >
        > > > Now many may call me crazy... but I work in
        > > the
        > > > mental health field and really experience no
        > > symptoms
        > > > of mental illness. This clairvoyance can be
        > > > described. It's like deja-vu. It is as if I
        > > remember
        > > > these things... although at times I need something
        > > to
        > > > jog my memory (a trigger). Then, later... I watch
        > > as
        > > > things happened exactly as I had "remembered."
        > > >
        > > > This did disturb me however... I didn't
        > > always
        > > > like what I saw. For a period of time I stopped
        > > > meditating in hopes that this would go away... and
        > > to
        > > > an extent it did. However, I was drawn back into
        > > > meditating and again took to it with ease.
        > > >
        > > > That brings me to why I am here... as again
        > > with
        > > > meditating I have the mystic experience. I again
        > > was
        > > > clairvoyant... which was fine until recently.
        > > > Recently , again, what I have seen has disturbed
        > > me.
        > > > I am talking about things on a global scale as
        > > well...
        > >
        > === message truncated ===
        >
        >
        >
        > __________________________________________________
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
        > http://mail.yahoo.com
        >
      • Jeff Belyea
        ... attachment ... Yes, that and the fact that the ego can come with imaginings disguised as clairvoyance. And this can lead back to the place where we
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 16, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "aideenmck"
          <aideenmck@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi, Ben
          >
          > I think what Jeff means is that it's not the experience of
          > clairvoyance that's the potential trap, but rather one's
          attachment
          > to it.
          > Is that right, Jeff?
          >
          > Aideen

          Yes, that and the fact that the "ego"
          can come with "imaginings" disguised
          as clairvoyance. And this can lead
          back to the place where we feel we
          have lost our enlightened perspective
          - back to "trying to figure out"...
          anything. Clarity has no questions.
          And, as you know, no attachments.

          Notice that Ben is still identifying
          himself as a seeker of enlightenment,
          rather than a "finder" who can simply
          attune to it.

          Jerry Wennstrom, in his book, "The
          Inspired Heart" wrote "The singular
          requirement of grace is to remain
          fearlessly attuned to the heart."

          Ramana Maharshi said, "The aspirant
          meditates to attain. The awakened
          meditate to maintain."

          In the Tibetan Book of The Dead,
          there is an admonition not to "follow
          the elephant tracks, once you have
          found the elephant.".

          So, my advice to Ben was to stay
          attuned to the heart - his beautiful
          experience that released him from
          anger and anxiey, and not enter
          a "wrestling match" with the issue
          of clairvoyance. Let it happen, but
          abandon it when it presents fear
          or doubt.

          Thanks.

          Jeff

          >
          >
          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Buehne
          > <benbuehne@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Thanks Jeff-
          > >
          > > I think I understand what you are saying but I would
          > > like to clarify. Basicly, there is a part of me, in
          > > my nature, that retains this anger and anxiety. While
          > > I may have been clairvoyant before... what I am seeing
          > > now may not, in fact, be this clairvoyance but this
          > > anger and anxiety sneeking into my conciousness.
          > > Possibly to frighten me out of continuing to seek
          > > enlightenment. Is this correct?
          > >
          > > Also, how can such a thing "rob us from ground
          > > gained"? What do you need to do in order to avoid
          > > such a thing?
          > >
          > > I realize I am inexperienced so I appreciate your help
          > > (everyone in the group for that matter). This state
          > > is actually not something I initially desired... I was
          > > simply trying to relax and it happened (interestingly
          > > enough it was the first time I had meditated outside).
          > > I want to let you know that I am humble and realize
          > > how "green" I am... I am simply a person who has taken
          > > to the art with significantly more ease than others.
          > > Your help is greatly appreciated.
          > >
          > > Thank you for your response,
          > > Ben
          > > P.S. Do you know of anyone in the chicagoland area
          > > that is experienced enough to help me with such
          > > matters?
          > >
          > > --- Jeff Belyea <jeff@> wrote:
          > >
          > > > Hi Ben -
          > > >
          > > > While the mystic experience is rare,
          > > > this group most probably has several,
          > > > if not quite a few, who can relate
          > > > to your story from similar direct
          > > > experience.
          > > >
          > > > The shift to what you wrote of as,
          > > > "consciousness of everything" and the
          > > > clarity, compassion and comfort
          > > > (peace of mind)is a common result.
          > > > The clairvoyant part, and the
          > > > occasions of deja vu, are not as
          > > > common, but many people report them,
          > > > as well.
          > > >
          > > > My experience, personally, and in
          > > > teaching meditation for the past 30
          > > > years has been that the former level
          > > > of conscious of which you wrote -
          > > > that anxious, needy "former self"
          > > > - often referred to as "ego",
          > > > is very sneaky, and does not
          > > > give up its attempt to regain the
          > > > dominant position in our consciousness.
          > > >
          > > > "It" can impose upon our imagination
          > > > in the guise of clairvoyance. In
          > > > this way, it will play upon our
          > > > "spiritual pride" and can trap us
          > > > in a return to "vain imaginings"
          > > > that are not a product of our
          > > > enlightenment. This is quicksand,
          > > > and can rob us of the ground gained,
          > > > in great part. It takes keen
          > > > discernment and abject honesty
          > > > with ourselves to be able to spot
          > > > this distinction.
          > > >
          > > > This is when a mature teacher or
          > > > "guru" can help guide an innocently
          > > > deluded "seeker" who has egoistically
          > > > talked themselves into claiming
          > > > enlightenment or even "Guru" status,
          > > > (Jody and Bruce - members here, can
          > > > speak knowledgeably, and sometimes
          > > > a bit jadedly, about this) and newbie
          > > > enlightened ones.
          > > >
          > > > Even when the enlightenment
          > > > experience seems, and is "known"
          > > > as, absolutely complete, there is
          > > > still a maintenance that is
          > > > required to continue to reap
          > > > the harvest of this new level
          > > > of consciousness. It is easy to
          > > > ignore this, because the new
          > > > enlightenment is so pure and
          > > > powerful that it feel invulnerable.
          > > >
          > > > In great part, it is, but while
          > > > we are still living in the material
          > > > world (thanks, Madonna) we are
          > > > subject to a "warring" faction -
          > > > in our own internal lives - as we see
          > > > manifested externally in the worldly
          > > > activity of war in the name of God.
          > > >
          > > > A red flag for spotting this activity is
          > > > is when we feel a negative anticipation,
          > > > or stuggle. The ego feeds on struggle
          > > > and will step up the internal dialogue.
          > > > And this is the antithesis of meditation
          > > > as a waking consciousness. If we feed
          > > > the struggle, we are in effect giving
          > > > up our enlightened consciousness, which
          > > > is above circumstance, and returning
          > > > to a rationally-dominant concern.
          > > >
          > > > The logical or rational argument
          > > > convincingly says we must be concerned
          > > > and do our part. But our part is to
          > > > maintain the enlightened perspective
          > > > and bring peace by our positive
          > > > energy and en-"light"ened view.
          > > > This alone will contribute to the
          > > > change of consciousness, and shift
          > > > in awareness, on a global scale that
          > > > so many awakened teacher "know" as
          > > > the destiny of humankind. Whoops,
          > > > getting a little lofty now.
          > > >
          > > > I'll stop here. If you find some
          > > > resonance with this, let me know,
          > > > and I'll be happy to follow up with
          > > > you privately.
          > > >
          > > > Peace,
          > > >
          > > > Jeff
          > > >
          > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
          > > > Benjamin Buehne
          > > > <benbuehne@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Hi everyone,
          > > > > My name is Ben and I just joined. It is nice
          > > > > that such a place exists, I have struggled to find
          > > > > others to relate to as far as my experiences
          > > > > meditating go. Basicly no one else I know does
          > > > it. I
          > > > > thought I would take this opportunity to share
          > > > with
          > > > > the group as far as who I am and what my
          > > > experiences
          > > > > have been like to see if anyone can relate.
          > > > >
          > > > > I used to be a fairly confused person. I
          > > > would
          > > > > generally be filled with an anger and anxiety. I
          > > > > wasn't too fun to be around. 1 day I had a panic
          > > > > attack... they continued and actually got stronger
          > > > as
          > > > > I had more of them.
          > > > >
          > > > > I heard about the effects of meditation and
          > > > gave
          > > > > it a shot. It worked fairly well for me... I
          > > > wasn't
          > > > > as angry and the panic attacks stopped. I made
          > > > > meditation a regular habit although I didn't have
          > > > > panic attacks, just to maintain. I taught myself
          > > > how
          > > > > to do this.
          > > > >
          > > > > One day, something happened though. I was
          > > > > actually in college and studying for finals. I
          > > > was
          > > > > feeling stressed out so I decided to meditate. It
          > > > was
          > > > > then that I had what others have described as a
          > > > mystic
          > > > > experience. A conciousness of everything, without
          > > > > thought. I was filled with energy afterwords and
          > > > a
          > > > > sense of elightment.
          > > > >
          > > > > It was then that I started to notice changes
          > > > in
          > > > > myself. I wouldn't ever lose my temper. Nothing
          > > > > really got to me... anxiety wasn't an issue and I
          > > > no
          > > > > longer had fears that I previously had. I went
          > > > from a
          > > > > C student to an A student. I felt more compassion
          > > > for
          > > > > others. Although I was raised catholic...
          > > > previously
          > > > > I hadn't been very religious. Afterwords I was
          > > > > certain of there being something else...
          > > > >
          > > > > Having this mystic experience became fairly
          > > > easy
          > > > > for me. I would be able to achieve it almost
          > > > every
          > > > > time I meditated. It was at this point in time
          > > > that I
          > > > > noticed a clairvoyance. I had prior knowledge of
          > > > the
          > > > > future.
          > > > >
          > > > > Now many may call me crazy... but I work in
          > > > the
          > > > > mental health field and really experience no
          > > > symptoms
          > > > > of mental illness. This clairvoyance can be
          > > > > described. It's like deja-vu. It is as if I
          > > > remember
          > > > > these things... although at times I need something
          > > > to
          > > > > jog my memory (a trigger). Then, later... I watch
          > > > as
          > > > > things happened exactly as I had "remembered."
          > > > >
          > > > > This did disturb me however... I didn't
          > > > always
          > > > > like what I saw. For a period of time I stopped
          > > > > meditating in hopes that this would go away... and
          > > > to
          > > > > an extent it did. However, I was drawn back into
          > > > > meditating and again took to it with ease.
          > > > >
          > > > > That brings me to why I am here... as again
          > > > with
          > > > > meditating I have the mystic experience. I again
          > > > was
          > > > > clairvoyant... which was fine until recently.
          > > > > Recently , again, what I have seen has disturbed
          > > > me.
          > > > > I am talking about things on a global scale as
          > > > well...
          > > >
          > > === message truncated ===
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > __________________________________________________
          > > Do You Yahoo!?
          > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          > > http://mail.yahoo.com
          > >
          >
        • Benjamin Buehne
          Thank you very much Jeff and Aideen- I understand what you are saying and will take the advice to heart. What you are saying is true Jeff... it has been a
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 16, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            Thank you very much Jeff and Aideen-

            I understand what you are saying and will take
            the advice to heart. What you are saying is true
            Jeff... it has been a distraction and distressing...
            thus I haven't maintained very well. The truth is...
            if what I "remembered" is true or not really doesn't
            matter... as there is nothing I could do about it
            anyways. I must simply take my place.

            With Gratitude,
            Ben

            --- Jeff Belyea <jeff@...> wrote:

            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
            > "aideenmck"
            > <aideenmck@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi, Ben
            > >
            > > I think what Jeff means is that it's not the
            > experience of
            > > clairvoyance that's the potential trap, but rather
            > one's
            > attachment
            > > to it.
            > > Is that right, Jeff?
            > >
            > > Aideen
            >
            > Yes, that and the fact that the "ego"
            > can come with "imaginings" disguised
            > as clairvoyance. And this can lead
            > back to the place where we feel we
            > have lost our enlightened perspective
            > - back to "trying to figure out"...
            > anything. Clarity has no questions.
            > And, as you know, no attachments.
            >
            > Notice that Ben is still identifying
            > himself as a seeker of enlightenment,
            > rather than a "finder" who can simply
            > attune to it.
            >
            > Jerry Wennstrom, in his book, "The
            > Inspired Heart" wrote "The singular
            > requirement of grace is to remain
            > fearlessly attuned to the heart."
            >
            > Ramana Maharshi said, "The aspirant
            > meditates to attain. The awakened
            > meditate to maintain."
            >
            > In the Tibetan Book of The Dead,
            > there is an admonition not to "follow
            > the elephant tracks, once you have
            > found the elephant.".
            >
            > So, my advice to Ben was to stay
            > attuned to the heart - his beautiful
            > experience that released him from
            > anger and anxiey, and not enter
            > a "wrestling match" with the issue
            > of clairvoyance. Let it happen, but
            > abandon it when it presents fear
            > or doubt.
            >
            > Thanks.
            >
            > Jeff
            >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
            > Benjamin Buehne
            > > <benbuehne@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Thanks Jeff-
            > > >
            > > > I think I understand what you are saying but I
            > would
            > > > like to clarify. Basicly, there is a part of
            > me, in
            > > > my nature, that retains this anger and anxiety.
            > While
            > > > I may have been clairvoyant before... what I am
            > seeing
            > > > now may not, in fact, be this clairvoyance but
            > this
            > > > anger and anxiety sneeking into my conciousness.
            >
            > > > Possibly to frighten me out of continuing to
            > seek
            > > > enlightenment. Is this correct?
            > > >
            > > > Also, how can such a thing "rob us from ground
            > > > gained"? What do you need to do in order to
            > avoid
            > > > such a thing?
            > > >
            > > > I realize I am inexperienced so I appreciate
            > your help
            > > > (everyone in the group for that matter). This
            > state
            > > > is actually not something I initially desired...
            > I was
            > > > simply trying to relax and it happened
            > (interestingly
            > > > enough it was the first time I had meditated
            > outside).
            > > > I want to let you know that I am humble and
            > realize
            > > > how "green" I am... I am simply a person who has
            > taken
            > > > to the art with significantly more ease than
            > others.
            > > > Your help is greatly appreciated.
            > > >
            > > > Thank you for your response,
            > > > Ben
            > > > P.S. Do you know of anyone in the chicagoland
            > area
            > > > that is experienced enough to help me with such
            > > > matters?
            > > >
            > > > --- Jeff Belyea <jeff@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > > Hi Ben -
            > > > >
            > > > > While the mystic experience is rare,
            > > > > this group most probably has several,
            > > > > if not quite a few, who can relate
            > > > > to your story from similar direct
            > > > > experience.
            > > > >
            > > > > The shift to what you wrote of as,
            > > > > "consciousness of everything" and the
            > > > > clarity, compassion and comfort
            > > > > (peace of mind)is a common result.
            > > > > The clairvoyant part, and the
            > > > > occasions of deja vu, are not as
            > > > > common, but many people report them,
            > > > > as well.
            > > > >
            > > > > My experience, personally, and in
            > > > > teaching meditation for the past 30
            > > > > years has been that the former level
            > > > > of conscious of which you wrote -
            > > > > that anxious, needy "former self"
            > > > > - often referred to as "ego",
            > > > > is very sneaky, and does not
            > > > > give up its attempt to regain the
            > > > > dominant position in our consciousness.
            > > > >
            > > > > "It" can impose upon our imagination
            > > > > in the guise of clairvoyance. In
            > > > > this way, it will play upon our
            > > > > "spiritual pride" and can trap us
            > > > > in a return to "vain imaginings"
            > > > > that are not a product of our
            > > > > enlightenment. This is quicksand,
            > > > > and can rob us of the ground gained,
            > > > > in great part. It takes keen
            > > > > discernment and abject honesty
            > > > > with ourselves to be able to spot
            > > > > this distinction.
            > > > >
            > > > > This is when a mature teacher or
            > > > > "guru" can help guide an innocently
            > > > > deluded "seeker" who has egoistically
            > > > > talked themselves into claiming
            > > > > enlightenment or even "Guru" status,
            > > > > (Jody and Bruce - members here, can
            > > > > speak knowledgeably, and sometimes
            > > > > a bit jadedly, about this) and newbie
            > > > > enlightened ones.
            > > > >
            > > > > Even when the enlightenment
            > > > > experience seems, and is "known"
            > > > > as, absolutely complete, there is
            > > > > still a maintenance that is
            > > > > required to continue to reap
            > > > > the harvest of this new level
            > > > > of consciousness. It is easy to
            > > > > ignore this, because the new
            > > > > enlightenment is so pure and
            > > > > powerful that it feel invulnerable.
            > > > >
            > > > > In great part, it is, but while
            > > > > we are still living in the material
            > > > > world (thanks, Madonna) we are
            > > > > subject to a "warring" faction -
            > > > > in our own internal lives - as we see
            > > > > manifested externally in the worldly
            > > > > activity of war in the name of God.
            > > > >
            > > > > A red flag for spotting this activity is
            > > > > is when we feel a negative anticipation,
            > > > > or stuggle. The ego feeds on struggle
            > > > > and will step up the internal dialogue.
            > > > > And this is the antithesis of meditation
            > > > > as a waking consciousness. If we feed
            > > > > the struggle, we are in effect giving
            > > > > up our enlightened consciousness, which
            > > > > is above circumstance, and returning
            > > > > to a rationally-dominant concern.
            > > > >
            > > > > The logical or rational argument
            > > > > convincingly says we must be concerned
            > > > > and do our part. But our part is to
            > > > > maintain the enlightened perspective
            > > > > and bring peace by our positive
            > > > > energy and en-"light"ened view.
            > > > > This alone will contribute to the
            > > > > change of consciousness, and shift
            >
            === message truncated ===


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