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Re: Introduction to myself/enlightenment 101

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  • Jeff Belyea
    Hi Ben - While the mystic experience is rare, this group most probably has several, if not quite a few, who can relate to your story from similar direct
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 15, 2006
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      Hi Ben -

      While the mystic experience is rare,
      this group most probably has several,
      if not quite a few, who can relate
      to your story from similar direct
      experience.

      The shift to what you wrote of as,
      "consciousness of everything" and the
      clarity, compassion and comfort
      (peace of mind)is a common result.
      The clairvoyant part, and the
      occasions of deja vu, are not as
      common, but many people report them,
      as well.

      My experience, personally, and in
      teaching meditation for the past 30
      years has been that the former level
      of conscious of which you wrote -
      that anxious, needy "former self"
      - often referred to as "ego",
      is very sneaky, and does not
      give up its attempt to regain the
      dominant position in our consciousness.

      "It" can impose upon our imagination
      in the guise of clairvoyance. In
      this way, it will play upon our
      "spiritual pride" and can trap us
      in a return to "vain imaginings"
      that are not a product of our
      enlightenment. This is quicksand,
      and can rob us of the ground gained,
      in great part. It takes keen
      discernment and abject honesty
      with ourselves to be able to spot
      this distinction.

      This is when a mature teacher or
      "guru" can help guide an innocently
      deluded "seeker" who has egoistically
      talked themselves into claiming
      enlightenment or even "Guru" status,
      (Jody and Bruce - members here, can
      speak knowledgeably, and sometimes
      a bit jadedly, about this) and newbie
      enlightened ones.

      Even when the enlightenment
      experience seems, and is "known"
      as, absolutely complete, there is
      still a maintenance that is
      required to continue to reap
      the harvest of this new level
      of consciousness. It is easy to
      ignore this, because the new
      enlightenment is so pure and
      powerful that it feel invulnerable.

      In great part, it is, but while
      we are still living in the material
      world (thanks, Madonna) we are
      subject to a "warring" faction -
      in our own internal lives - as we see
      manifested externally in the worldly
      activity of war in the name of God.

      A red flag for spotting this activity is
      is when we feel a negative anticipation,
      or stuggle. The ego feeds on struggle
      and will step up the internal dialogue.
      And this is the antithesis of meditation
      as a waking consciousness. If we feed
      the struggle, we are in effect giving
      up our enlightened consciousness, which
      is above circumstance, and returning
      to a rationally-dominant concern.

      The logical or rational argument
      convincingly says we must be concerned
      and do our part. But our part is to
      maintain the enlightened perspective
      and bring peace by our positive
      energy and en-"light"ened view.
      This alone will contribute to the
      change of consciousness, and shift
      in awareness, on a global scale that
      so many awakened teacher "know" as
      the destiny of humankind. Whoops,
      getting a little lofty now.

      I'll stop here. If you find some
      resonance with this, let me know,
      and I'll be happy to follow up with
      you privately.

      Peace,

      Jeff

      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Buehne
      <benbuehne@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi everyone,
      > My name is Ben and I just joined. It is nice
      > that such a place exists, I have struggled to find
      > others to relate to as far as my experiences
      > meditating go. Basicly no one else I know does it. I
      > thought I would take this opportunity to share with
      > the group as far as who I am and what my experiences
      > have been like to see if anyone can relate.
      >
      > I used to be a fairly confused person. I would
      > generally be filled with an anger and anxiety. I
      > wasn't too fun to be around. 1 day I had a panic
      > attack... they continued and actually got stronger as
      > I had more of them.
      >
      > I heard about the effects of meditation and gave
      > it a shot. It worked fairly well for me... I wasn't
      > as angry and the panic attacks stopped. I made
      > meditation a regular habit although I didn't have
      > panic attacks, just to maintain. I taught myself how
      > to do this.
      >
      > One day, something happened though. I was
      > actually in college and studying for finals. I was
      > feeling stressed out so I decided to meditate. It was
      > then that I had what others have described as a mystic
      > experience. A conciousness of everything, without
      > thought. I was filled with energy afterwords and a
      > sense of elightment.
      >
      > It was then that I started to notice changes in
      > myself. I wouldn't ever lose my temper. Nothing
      > really got to me... anxiety wasn't an issue and I no
      > longer had fears that I previously had. I went from a
      > C student to an A student. I felt more compassion for
      > others. Although I was raised catholic... previously
      > I hadn't been very religious. Afterwords I was
      > certain of there being something else...
      >
      > Having this mystic experience became fairly easy
      > for me. I would be able to achieve it almost every
      > time I meditated. It was at this point in time that I
      > noticed a clairvoyance. I had prior knowledge of the
      > future.
      >
      > Now many may call me crazy... but I work in the
      > mental health field and really experience no symptoms
      > of mental illness. This clairvoyance can be
      > described. It's like deja-vu. It is as if I remember
      > these things... although at times I need something to
      > jog my memory (a trigger). Then, later... I watch as
      > things happened exactly as I had "remembered."
      >
      > This did disturb me however... I didn't always
      > like what I saw. For a period of time I stopped
      > meditating in hopes that this would go away... and to
      > an extent it did. However, I was drawn back into
      > meditating and again took to it with ease.
      >
      > That brings me to why I am here... as again with
      > meditating I have the mystic experience. I again was
      > clairvoyant... which was fine until recently.
      > Recently , again, what I have seen has disturbed me.
      > I am talking about things on a global scale as well...
      > not certain if it's armageddon but certainly a period
      > of transition and war that we will enter soon. I'm
      > not talking about the war we are already in... one far
      > more grevious and that occurs on the streets of the
      > United States. I was wondering if anyone else has had
      > similar experiences. Anyone else every get this
      > cliarvoyant feeling? If so, have you also seen this?
      >
      > Pleasure making your acquaintance,
      > Ben
      >
      > __________________________________________________
      > Do You Yahoo!?
      > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
      > http://mail.yahoo.com
      >
    • Benjamin Buehne
      Thanks Jeff- I think I understand what you are saying but I would like to clarify. Basicly, there is a part of me, in my nature, that retains this anger and
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 16, 2006
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        Thanks Jeff-

        I think I understand what you are saying but I would
        like to clarify. Basicly, there is a part of me, in
        my nature, that retains this anger and anxiety. While
        I may have been clairvoyant before... what I am seeing
        now may not, in fact, be this clairvoyance but this
        anger and anxiety sneeking into my conciousness.
        Possibly to frighten me out of continuing to seek
        enlightenment. Is this correct?

        Also, how can such a thing "rob us from ground
        gained"? What do you need to do in order to avoid
        such a thing?

        I realize I am inexperienced so I appreciate your help
        (everyone in the group for that matter). This state
        is actually not something I initially desired... I was
        simply trying to relax and it happened (interestingly
        enough it was the first time I had meditated outside).
        I want to let you know that I am humble and realize
        how "green" I am... I am simply a person who has taken
        to the art with significantly more ease than others.
        Your help is greatly appreciated.

        Thank you for your response,
        Ben
        P.S. Do you know of anyone in the chicagoland area
        that is experienced enough to help me with such
        matters?

        --- Jeff Belyea <jeff@...> wrote:

        > Hi Ben -
        >
        > While the mystic experience is rare,
        > this group most probably has several,
        > if not quite a few, who can relate
        > to your story from similar direct
        > experience.
        >
        > The shift to what you wrote of as,
        > "consciousness of everything" and the
        > clarity, compassion and comfort
        > (peace of mind)is a common result.
        > The clairvoyant part, and the
        > occasions of deja vu, are not as
        > common, but many people report them,
        > as well.
        >
        > My experience, personally, and in
        > teaching meditation for the past 30
        > years has been that the former level
        > of conscious of which you wrote -
        > that anxious, needy "former self"
        > - often referred to as "ego",
        > is very sneaky, and does not
        > give up its attempt to regain the
        > dominant position in our consciousness.
        >
        > "It" can impose upon our imagination
        > in the guise of clairvoyance. In
        > this way, it will play upon our
        > "spiritual pride" and can trap us
        > in a return to "vain imaginings"
        > that are not a product of our
        > enlightenment. This is quicksand,
        > and can rob us of the ground gained,
        > in great part. It takes keen
        > discernment and abject honesty
        > with ourselves to be able to spot
        > this distinction.
        >
        > This is when a mature teacher or
        > "guru" can help guide an innocently
        > deluded "seeker" who has egoistically
        > talked themselves into claiming
        > enlightenment or even "Guru" status,
        > (Jody and Bruce - members here, can
        > speak knowledgeably, and sometimes
        > a bit jadedly, about this) and newbie
        > enlightened ones.
        >
        > Even when the enlightenment
        > experience seems, and is "known"
        > as, absolutely complete, there is
        > still a maintenance that is
        > required to continue to reap
        > the harvest of this new level
        > of consciousness. It is easy to
        > ignore this, because the new
        > enlightenment is so pure and
        > powerful that it feel invulnerable.
        >
        > In great part, it is, but while
        > we are still living in the material
        > world (thanks, Madonna) we are
        > subject to a "warring" faction -
        > in our own internal lives - as we see
        > manifested externally in the worldly
        > activity of war in the name of God.
        >
        > A red flag for spotting this activity is
        > is when we feel a negative anticipation,
        > or stuggle. The ego feeds on struggle
        > and will step up the internal dialogue.
        > And this is the antithesis of meditation
        > as a waking consciousness. If we feed
        > the struggle, we are in effect giving
        > up our enlightened consciousness, which
        > is above circumstance, and returning
        > to a rationally-dominant concern.
        >
        > The logical or rational argument
        > convincingly says we must be concerned
        > and do our part. But our part is to
        > maintain the enlightened perspective
        > and bring peace by our positive
        > energy and en-"light"ened view.
        > This alone will contribute to the
        > change of consciousness, and shift
        > in awareness, on a global scale that
        > so many awakened teacher "know" as
        > the destiny of humankind. Whoops,
        > getting a little lofty now.
        >
        > I'll stop here. If you find some
        > resonance with this, let me know,
        > and I'll be happy to follow up with
        > you privately.
        >
        > Peace,
        >
        > Jeff
        >
        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
        > Benjamin Buehne
        > <benbuehne@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi everyone,
        > > My name is Ben and I just joined. It is nice
        > > that such a place exists, I have struggled to find
        > > others to relate to as far as my experiences
        > > meditating go. Basicly no one else I know does
        > it. I
        > > thought I would take this opportunity to share
        > with
        > > the group as far as who I am and what my
        > experiences
        > > have been like to see if anyone can relate.
        > >
        > > I used to be a fairly confused person. I
        > would
        > > generally be filled with an anger and anxiety. I
        > > wasn't too fun to be around. 1 day I had a panic
        > > attack... they continued and actually got stronger
        > as
        > > I had more of them.
        > >
        > > I heard about the effects of meditation and
        > gave
        > > it a shot. It worked fairly well for me... I
        > wasn't
        > > as angry and the panic attacks stopped. I made
        > > meditation a regular habit although I didn't have
        > > panic attacks, just to maintain. I taught myself
        > how
        > > to do this.
        > >
        > > One day, something happened though. I was
        > > actually in college and studying for finals. I
        > was
        > > feeling stressed out so I decided to meditate. It
        > was
        > > then that I had what others have described as a
        > mystic
        > > experience. A conciousness of everything, without
        > > thought. I was filled with energy afterwords and
        > a
        > > sense of elightment.
        > >
        > > It was then that I started to notice changes
        > in
        > > myself. I wouldn't ever lose my temper. Nothing
        > > really got to me... anxiety wasn't an issue and I
        > no
        > > longer had fears that I previously had. I went
        > from a
        > > C student to an A student. I felt more compassion
        > for
        > > others. Although I was raised catholic...
        > previously
        > > I hadn't been very religious. Afterwords I was
        > > certain of there being something else...
        > >
        > > Having this mystic experience became fairly
        > easy
        > > for me. I would be able to achieve it almost
        > every
        > > time I meditated. It was at this point in time
        > that I
        > > noticed a clairvoyance. I had prior knowledge of
        > the
        > > future.
        > >
        > > Now many may call me crazy... but I work in
        > the
        > > mental health field and really experience no
        > symptoms
        > > of mental illness. This clairvoyance can be
        > > described. It's like deja-vu. It is as if I
        > remember
        > > these things... although at times I need something
        > to
        > > jog my memory (a trigger). Then, later... I watch
        > as
        > > things happened exactly as I had "remembered."
        > >
        > > This did disturb me however... I didn't
        > always
        > > like what I saw. For a period of time I stopped
        > > meditating in hopes that this would go away... and
        > to
        > > an extent it did. However, I was drawn back into
        > > meditating and again took to it with ease.
        > >
        > > That brings me to why I am here... as again
        > with
        > > meditating I have the mystic experience. I again
        > was
        > > clairvoyant... which was fine until recently.
        > > Recently , again, what I have seen has disturbed
        > me.
        > > I am talking about things on a global scale as
        > well...
        >
        === message truncated ===



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      • aideenmck
        Hi, Ben I think what Jeff means is that it s not the experience of clairvoyance that s the potential trap, but rather one s attachment to it. Is that right,
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 16, 2006
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          Hi, Ben

          I think what Jeff means is that it's not the experience of
          clairvoyance that's the potential trap, but rather one's attachment
          to it.
          Is that right, Jeff?

          Aideen


          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Buehne
          <benbuehne@...> wrote:
          >
          > Thanks Jeff-
          >
          > I think I understand what you are saying but I would
          > like to clarify. Basicly, there is a part of me, in
          > my nature, that retains this anger and anxiety. While
          > I may have been clairvoyant before... what I am seeing
          > now may not, in fact, be this clairvoyance but this
          > anger and anxiety sneeking into my conciousness.
          > Possibly to frighten me out of continuing to seek
          > enlightenment. Is this correct?
          >
          > Also, how can such a thing "rob us from ground
          > gained"? What do you need to do in order to avoid
          > such a thing?
          >
          > I realize I am inexperienced so I appreciate your help
          > (everyone in the group for that matter). This state
          > is actually not something I initially desired... I was
          > simply trying to relax and it happened (interestingly
          > enough it was the first time I had meditated outside).
          > I want to let you know that I am humble and realize
          > how "green" I am... I am simply a person who has taken
          > to the art with significantly more ease than others.
          > Your help is greatly appreciated.
          >
          > Thank you for your response,
          > Ben
          > P.S. Do you know of anyone in the chicagoland area
          > that is experienced enough to help me with such
          > matters?
          >
          > --- Jeff Belyea <jeff@...> wrote:
          >
          > > Hi Ben -
          > >
          > > While the mystic experience is rare,
          > > this group most probably has several,
          > > if not quite a few, who can relate
          > > to your story from similar direct
          > > experience.
          > >
          > > The shift to what you wrote of as,
          > > "consciousness of everything" and the
          > > clarity, compassion and comfort
          > > (peace of mind)is a common result.
          > > The clairvoyant part, and the
          > > occasions of deja vu, are not as
          > > common, but many people report them,
          > > as well.
          > >
          > > My experience, personally, and in
          > > teaching meditation for the past 30
          > > years has been that the former level
          > > of conscious of which you wrote -
          > > that anxious, needy "former self"
          > > - often referred to as "ego",
          > > is very sneaky, and does not
          > > give up its attempt to regain the
          > > dominant position in our consciousness.
          > >
          > > "It" can impose upon our imagination
          > > in the guise of clairvoyance. In
          > > this way, it will play upon our
          > > "spiritual pride" and can trap us
          > > in a return to "vain imaginings"
          > > that are not a product of our
          > > enlightenment. This is quicksand,
          > > and can rob us of the ground gained,
          > > in great part. It takes keen
          > > discernment and abject honesty
          > > with ourselves to be able to spot
          > > this distinction.
          > >
          > > This is when a mature teacher or
          > > "guru" can help guide an innocently
          > > deluded "seeker" who has egoistically
          > > talked themselves into claiming
          > > enlightenment or even "Guru" status,
          > > (Jody and Bruce - members here, can
          > > speak knowledgeably, and sometimes
          > > a bit jadedly, about this) and newbie
          > > enlightened ones.
          > >
          > > Even when the enlightenment
          > > experience seems, and is "known"
          > > as, absolutely complete, there is
          > > still a maintenance that is
          > > required to continue to reap
          > > the harvest of this new level
          > > of consciousness. It is easy to
          > > ignore this, because the new
          > > enlightenment is so pure and
          > > powerful that it feel invulnerable.
          > >
          > > In great part, it is, but while
          > > we are still living in the material
          > > world (thanks, Madonna) we are
          > > subject to a "warring" faction -
          > > in our own internal lives - as we see
          > > manifested externally in the worldly
          > > activity of war in the name of God.
          > >
          > > A red flag for spotting this activity is
          > > is when we feel a negative anticipation,
          > > or stuggle. The ego feeds on struggle
          > > and will step up the internal dialogue.
          > > And this is the antithesis of meditation
          > > as a waking consciousness. If we feed
          > > the struggle, we are in effect giving
          > > up our enlightened consciousness, which
          > > is above circumstance, and returning
          > > to a rationally-dominant concern.
          > >
          > > The logical or rational argument
          > > convincingly says we must be concerned
          > > and do our part. But our part is to
          > > maintain the enlightened perspective
          > > and bring peace by our positive
          > > energy and en-"light"ened view.
          > > This alone will contribute to the
          > > change of consciousness, and shift
          > > in awareness, on a global scale that
          > > so many awakened teacher "know" as
          > > the destiny of humankind. Whoops,
          > > getting a little lofty now.
          > >
          > > I'll stop here. If you find some
          > > resonance with this, let me know,
          > > and I'll be happy to follow up with
          > > you privately.
          > >
          > > Peace,
          > >
          > > Jeff
          > >
          > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
          > > Benjamin Buehne
          > > <benbuehne@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Hi everyone,
          > > > My name is Ben and I just joined. It is nice
          > > > that such a place exists, I have struggled to find
          > > > others to relate to as far as my experiences
          > > > meditating go. Basicly no one else I know does
          > > it. I
          > > > thought I would take this opportunity to share
          > > with
          > > > the group as far as who I am and what my
          > > experiences
          > > > have been like to see if anyone can relate.
          > > >
          > > > I used to be a fairly confused person. I
          > > would
          > > > generally be filled with an anger and anxiety. I
          > > > wasn't too fun to be around. 1 day I had a panic
          > > > attack... they continued and actually got stronger
          > > as
          > > > I had more of them.
          > > >
          > > > I heard about the effects of meditation and
          > > gave
          > > > it a shot. It worked fairly well for me... I
          > > wasn't
          > > > as angry and the panic attacks stopped. I made
          > > > meditation a regular habit although I didn't have
          > > > panic attacks, just to maintain. I taught myself
          > > how
          > > > to do this.
          > > >
          > > > One day, something happened though. I was
          > > > actually in college and studying for finals. I
          > > was
          > > > feeling stressed out so I decided to meditate. It
          > > was
          > > > then that I had what others have described as a
          > > mystic
          > > > experience. A conciousness of everything, without
          > > > thought. I was filled with energy afterwords and
          > > a
          > > > sense of elightment.
          > > >
          > > > It was then that I started to notice changes
          > > in
          > > > myself. I wouldn't ever lose my temper. Nothing
          > > > really got to me... anxiety wasn't an issue and I
          > > no
          > > > longer had fears that I previously had. I went
          > > from a
          > > > C student to an A student. I felt more compassion
          > > for
          > > > others. Although I was raised catholic...
          > > previously
          > > > I hadn't been very religious. Afterwords I was
          > > > certain of there being something else...
          > > >
          > > > Having this mystic experience became fairly
          > > easy
          > > > for me. I would be able to achieve it almost
          > > every
          > > > time I meditated. It was at this point in time
          > > that I
          > > > noticed a clairvoyance. I had prior knowledge of
          > > the
          > > > future.
          > > >
          > > > Now many may call me crazy... but I work in
          > > the
          > > > mental health field and really experience no
          > > symptoms
          > > > of mental illness. This clairvoyance can be
          > > > described. It's like deja-vu. It is as if I
          > > remember
          > > > these things... although at times I need something
          > > to
          > > > jog my memory (a trigger). Then, later... I watch
          > > as
          > > > things happened exactly as I had "remembered."
          > > >
          > > > This did disturb me however... I didn't
          > > always
          > > > like what I saw. For a period of time I stopped
          > > > meditating in hopes that this would go away... and
          > > to
          > > > an extent it did. However, I was drawn back into
          > > > meditating and again took to it with ease.
          > > >
          > > > That brings me to why I am here... as again
          > > with
          > > > meditating I have the mystic experience. I again
          > > was
          > > > clairvoyant... which was fine until recently.
          > > > Recently , again, what I have seen has disturbed
          > > me.
          > > > I am talking about things on a global scale as
          > > well...
          > >
          > === message truncated ===
          >
          >
          >
          > __________________________________________________
          > Do You Yahoo!?
          > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          > http://mail.yahoo.com
          >
        • Jeff Belyea
          ... I don t want to to add confusion, but your nature is not angry and anxious. That is learned behavior and reactionary rather than original thinking. What
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 16, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Buehne
            <benbuehne@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thanks Jeff-
            >
            > I think I understand what you are saying but I would
            > like to clarify. Basicly, there is a part of me, in
            > my nature, that retains this anger and anxiety.

            I don't want to to add confusion, but your "nature"
            is not angry and anxious. That is learned behavior
            and reactionary rather than original thinking.

            What you experienced (and experience) from meditation -
            the lack of anger and anxiety, the peace of mind and
            compassion; those are your "nature".


            While
            > I may have been clairvoyant before... what I am seeing
            > now may not, in fact, be this clairvoyance but this
            > anger and anxiety sneeking into my conciousness.
            > Possibly to frighten me out of continuing to seek
            > enlightenment. Is this correct?

            Yes. Clairvoyance may be genuine - up to a point. When
            the seeming clarivoyance produces anger and/or anxiety,
            that is a product of the "ego", the linear, rational,
            conditioned mind, doing exactly what you discribe above.
            When you experienced release from this, you where
            connecting to the genuine "you". As you "seek" enlightenment,
            the ego is threatened. But I wonder why you put the
            continuance of your journey in those terms. You have
            experienced enlightenment. Rather than seek it, just
            accept it and let it "present itself" to you. This will
            lead you to an effortless, productive and joyful life.

            >
            > Also, how can such a thing "rob us from ground
            > gained"? What do you need to do in order to avoid
            > such a thing?

            Clarivoyance or any "gift" or "powers" are toys compared
            to enlightenment. They are trinkets. When we become
            fascinated by them, we are in "leaving" the realm of
            enlightened thought and experience, and the more we
            allow ourselves to be swept up with these thoughts -
            those that are negative and anxiety producing, the more
            we "rehearse". See my previous
            paragraph. More later. My show is upcoming.



            >
            > I realize I am inexperienced so I appreciate your help
            > (everyone in the group for that matter). This state
            > is actually not something I initially desired... I was
            > simply trying to relax and it happened (interestingly
            > enough it was the first time I had meditated outside).
            > I want to let you know that I am humble and realize
            > how "green" I am... I am simply a person who has taken
            > to the art with significantly more ease than others.
            > Your help is greatly appreciated.
            >
            > Thank you for your response,
            > Ben
            > P.S. Do you know of anyone in the chicagoland area
            > that is experienced enough to help me with such
            > matters?
            >
            > --- Jeff Belyea <jeff@...> wrote:
            >
            > > Hi Ben -
            > >
            > > While the mystic experience is rare,
            > > this group most probably has several,
            > > if not quite a few, who can relate
            > > to your story from similar direct
            > > experience.
            > >
            > > The shift to what you wrote of as,
            > > "consciousness of everything" and the
            > > clarity, compassion and comfort
            > > (peace of mind)is a common result.
            > > The clairvoyant part, and the
            > > occasions of deja vu, are not as
            > > common, but many people report them,
            > > as well.
            > >
            > > My experience, personally, and in
            > > teaching meditation for the past 30
            > > years has been that the former level
            > > of conscious of which you wrote -
            > > that anxious, needy "former self"
            > > - often referred to as "ego",
            > > is very sneaky, and does not
            > > give up its attempt to regain the
            > > dominant position in our consciousness.
            > >
            > > "It" can impose upon our imagination
            > > in the guise of clairvoyance. In
            > > this way, it will play upon our
            > > "spiritual pride" and can trap us
            > > in a return to "vain imaginings"
            > > that are not a product of our
            > > enlightenment. This is quicksand,
            > > and can rob us of the ground gained,
            > > in great part. It takes keen
            > > discernment and abject honesty
            > > with ourselves to be able to spot
            > > this distinction.
            > >
            > > This is when a mature teacher or
            > > "guru" can help guide an innocently
            > > deluded "seeker" who has egoistically
            > > talked themselves into claiming
            > > enlightenment or even "Guru" status,
            > > (Jody and Bruce - members here, can
            > > speak knowledgeably, and sometimes
            > > a bit jadedly, about this) and newbie
            > > enlightened ones.
            > >
            > > Even when the enlightenment
            > > experience seems, and is "known"
            > > as, absolutely complete, there is
            > > still a maintenance that is
            > > required to continue to reap
            > > the harvest of this new level
            > > of consciousness. It is easy to
            > > ignore this, because the new
            > > enlightenment is so pure and
            > > powerful that it feel invulnerable.
            > >
            > > In great part, it is, but while
            > > we are still living in the material
            > > world (thanks, Madonna) we are
            > > subject to a "warring" faction -
            > > in our own internal lives - as we see
            > > manifested externally in the worldly
            > > activity of war in the name of God.
            > >
            > > A red flag for spotting this activity is
            > > is when we feel a negative anticipation,
            > > or stuggle. The ego feeds on struggle
            > > and will step up the internal dialogue.
            > > And this is the antithesis of meditation
            > > as a waking consciousness. If we feed
            > > the struggle, we are in effect giving
            > > up our enlightened consciousness, which
            > > is above circumstance, and returning
            > > to a rationally-dominant concern.
            > >
            > > The logical or rational argument
            > > convincingly says we must be concerned
            > > and do our part. But our part is to
            > > maintain the enlightened perspective
            > > and bring peace by our positive
            > > energy and en-"light"ened view.
            > > This alone will contribute to the
            > > change of consciousness, and shift
            > > in awareness, on a global scale that
            > > so many awakened teacher "know" as
            > > the destiny of humankind. Whoops,
            > > getting a little lofty now.
            > >
            > > I'll stop here. If you find some
            > > resonance with this, let me know,
            > > and I'll be happy to follow up with
            > > you privately.
            > >
            > > Peace,
            > >
            > > Jeff
            > >
            > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
            > > Benjamin Buehne
            > > <benbuehne@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hi everyone,
            > > > My name is Ben and I just joined. It is nice
            > > > that such a place exists, I have struggled to find
            > > > others to relate to as far as my experiences
            > > > meditating go. Basicly no one else I know does
            > > it. I
            > > > thought I would take this opportunity to share
            > > with
            > > > the group as far as who I am and what my
            > > experiences
            > > > have been like to see if anyone can relate.
            > > >
            > > > I used to be a fairly confused person. I
            > > would
            > > > generally be filled with an anger and anxiety. I
            > > > wasn't too fun to be around. 1 day I had a panic
            > > > attack... they continued and actually got stronger
            > > as
            > > > I had more of them.
            > > >
            > > > I heard about the effects of meditation and
            > > gave
            > > > it a shot. It worked fairly well for me... I
            > > wasn't
            > > > as angry and the panic attacks stopped. I made
            > > > meditation a regular habit although I didn't have
            > > > panic attacks, just to maintain. I taught myself
            > > how
            > > > to do this.
            > > >
            > > > One day, something happened though. I was
            > > > actually in college and studying for finals. I
            > > was
            > > > feeling stressed out so I decided to meditate. It
            > > was
            > > > then that I had what others have described as a
            > > mystic
            > > > experience. A conciousness of everything, without
            > > > thought. I was filled with energy afterwords and
            > > a
            > > > sense of elightment.
            > > >
            > > > It was then that I started to notice changes
            > > in
            > > > myself. I wouldn't ever lose my temper. Nothing
            > > > really got to me... anxiety wasn't an issue and I
            > > no
            > > > longer had fears that I previously had. I went
            > > from a
            > > > C student to an A student. I felt more compassion
            > > for
            > > > others. Although I was raised catholic...
            > > previously
            > > > I hadn't been very religious. Afterwords I was
            > > > certain of there being something else...
            > > >
            > > > Having this mystic experience became fairly
            > > easy
            > > > for me. I would be able to achieve it almost
            > > every
            > > > time I meditated. It was at this point in time
            > > that I
            > > > noticed a clairvoyance. I had prior knowledge of
            > > the
            > > > future.
            > > >
            > > > Now many may call me crazy... but I work in
            > > the
            > > > mental health field and really experience no
            > > symptoms
            > > > of mental illness. This clairvoyance can be
            > > > described. It's like deja-vu. It is as if I
            > > remember
            > > > these things... although at times I need something
            > > to
            > > > jog my memory (a trigger). Then, later... I watch
            > > as
            > > > things happened exactly as I had "remembered."
            > > >
            > > > This did disturb me however... I didn't
            > > always
            > > > like what I saw. For a period of time I stopped
            > > > meditating in hopes that this would go away... and
            > > to
            > > > an extent it did. However, I was drawn back into
            > > > meditating and again took to it with ease.
            > > >
            > > > That brings me to why I am here... as again
            > > with
            > > > meditating I have the mystic experience. I again
            > > was
            > > > clairvoyant... which was fine until recently.
            > > > Recently , again, what I have seen has disturbed
            > > me.
            > > > I am talking about things on a global scale as
            > > well...
            > >
            > === message truncated ===
            >
            >
            >
            > __________________________________________________
            > Do You Yahoo!?
            > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
            > http://mail.yahoo.com
            >
          • Jeff Belyea
            ... attachment ... Yes, that and the fact that the ego can come with imaginings disguised as clairvoyance. And this can lead back to the place where we
            Message 5 of 8 , Jul 16, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "aideenmck"
              <aideenmck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi, Ben
              >
              > I think what Jeff means is that it's not the experience of
              > clairvoyance that's the potential trap, but rather one's
              attachment
              > to it.
              > Is that right, Jeff?
              >
              > Aideen

              Yes, that and the fact that the "ego"
              can come with "imaginings" disguised
              as clairvoyance. And this can lead
              back to the place where we feel we
              have lost our enlightened perspective
              - back to "trying to figure out"...
              anything. Clarity has no questions.
              And, as you know, no attachments.

              Notice that Ben is still identifying
              himself as a seeker of enlightenment,
              rather than a "finder" who can simply
              attune to it.

              Jerry Wennstrom, in his book, "The
              Inspired Heart" wrote "The singular
              requirement of grace is to remain
              fearlessly attuned to the heart."

              Ramana Maharshi said, "The aspirant
              meditates to attain. The awakened
              meditate to maintain."

              In the Tibetan Book of The Dead,
              there is an admonition not to "follow
              the elephant tracks, once you have
              found the elephant.".

              So, my advice to Ben was to stay
              attuned to the heart - his beautiful
              experience that released him from
              anger and anxiey, and not enter
              a "wrestling match" with the issue
              of clairvoyance. Let it happen, but
              abandon it when it presents fear
              or doubt.

              Thanks.

              Jeff

              >
              >
              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Buehne
              > <benbuehne@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Thanks Jeff-
              > >
              > > I think I understand what you are saying but I would
              > > like to clarify. Basicly, there is a part of me, in
              > > my nature, that retains this anger and anxiety. While
              > > I may have been clairvoyant before... what I am seeing
              > > now may not, in fact, be this clairvoyance but this
              > > anger and anxiety sneeking into my conciousness.
              > > Possibly to frighten me out of continuing to seek
              > > enlightenment. Is this correct?
              > >
              > > Also, how can such a thing "rob us from ground
              > > gained"? What do you need to do in order to avoid
              > > such a thing?
              > >
              > > I realize I am inexperienced so I appreciate your help
              > > (everyone in the group for that matter). This state
              > > is actually not something I initially desired... I was
              > > simply trying to relax and it happened (interestingly
              > > enough it was the first time I had meditated outside).
              > > I want to let you know that I am humble and realize
              > > how "green" I am... I am simply a person who has taken
              > > to the art with significantly more ease than others.
              > > Your help is greatly appreciated.
              > >
              > > Thank you for your response,
              > > Ben
              > > P.S. Do you know of anyone in the chicagoland area
              > > that is experienced enough to help me with such
              > > matters?
              > >
              > > --- Jeff Belyea <jeff@> wrote:
              > >
              > > > Hi Ben -
              > > >
              > > > While the mystic experience is rare,
              > > > this group most probably has several,
              > > > if not quite a few, who can relate
              > > > to your story from similar direct
              > > > experience.
              > > >
              > > > The shift to what you wrote of as,
              > > > "consciousness of everything" and the
              > > > clarity, compassion and comfort
              > > > (peace of mind)is a common result.
              > > > The clairvoyant part, and the
              > > > occasions of deja vu, are not as
              > > > common, but many people report them,
              > > > as well.
              > > >
              > > > My experience, personally, and in
              > > > teaching meditation for the past 30
              > > > years has been that the former level
              > > > of conscious of which you wrote -
              > > > that anxious, needy "former self"
              > > > - often referred to as "ego",
              > > > is very sneaky, and does not
              > > > give up its attempt to regain the
              > > > dominant position in our consciousness.
              > > >
              > > > "It" can impose upon our imagination
              > > > in the guise of clairvoyance. In
              > > > this way, it will play upon our
              > > > "spiritual pride" and can trap us
              > > > in a return to "vain imaginings"
              > > > that are not a product of our
              > > > enlightenment. This is quicksand,
              > > > and can rob us of the ground gained,
              > > > in great part. It takes keen
              > > > discernment and abject honesty
              > > > with ourselves to be able to spot
              > > > this distinction.
              > > >
              > > > This is when a mature teacher or
              > > > "guru" can help guide an innocently
              > > > deluded "seeker" who has egoistically
              > > > talked themselves into claiming
              > > > enlightenment or even "Guru" status,
              > > > (Jody and Bruce - members here, can
              > > > speak knowledgeably, and sometimes
              > > > a bit jadedly, about this) and newbie
              > > > enlightened ones.
              > > >
              > > > Even when the enlightenment
              > > > experience seems, and is "known"
              > > > as, absolutely complete, there is
              > > > still a maintenance that is
              > > > required to continue to reap
              > > > the harvest of this new level
              > > > of consciousness. It is easy to
              > > > ignore this, because the new
              > > > enlightenment is so pure and
              > > > powerful that it feel invulnerable.
              > > >
              > > > In great part, it is, but while
              > > > we are still living in the material
              > > > world (thanks, Madonna) we are
              > > > subject to a "warring" faction -
              > > > in our own internal lives - as we see
              > > > manifested externally in the worldly
              > > > activity of war in the name of God.
              > > >
              > > > A red flag for spotting this activity is
              > > > is when we feel a negative anticipation,
              > > > or stuggle. The ego feeds on struggle
              > > > and will step up the internal dialogue.
              > > > And this is the antithesis of meditation
              > > > as a waking consciousness. If we feed
              > > > the struggle, we are in effect giving
              > > > up our enlightened consciousness, which
              > > > is above circumstance, and returning
              > > > to a rationally-dominant concern.
              > > >
              > > > The logical or rational argument
              > > > convincingly says we must be concerned
              > > > and do our part. But our part is to
              > > > maintain the enlightened perspective
              > > > and bring peace by our positive
              > > > energy and en-"light"ened view.
              > > > This alone will contribute to the
              > > > change of consciousness, and shift
              > > > in awareness, on a global scale that
              > > > so many awakened teacher "know" as
              > > > the destiny of humankind. Whoops,
              > > > getting a little lofty now.
              > > >
              > > > I'll stop here. If you find some
              > > > resonance with this, let me know,
              > > > and I'll be happy to follow up with
              > > > you privately.
              > > >
              > > > Peace,
              > > >
              > > > Jeff
              > > >
              > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
              > > > Benjamin Buehne
              > > > <benbuehne@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Hi everyone,
              > > > > My name is Ben and I just joined. It is nice
              > > > > that such a place exists, I have struggled to find
              > > > > others to relate to as far as my experiences
              > > > > meditating go. Basicly no one else I know does
              > > > it. I
              > > > > thought I would take this opportunity to share
              > > > with
              > > > > the group as far as who I am and what my
              > > > experiences
              > > > > have been like to see if anyone can relate.
              > > > >
              > > > > I used to be a fairly confused person. I
              > > > would
              > > > > generally be filled with an anger and anxiety. I
              > > > > wasn't too fun to be around. 1 day I had a panic
              > > > > attack... they continued and actually got stronger
              > > > as
              > > > > I had more of them.
              > > > >
              > > > > I heard about the effects of meditation and
              > > > gave
              > > > > it a shot. It worked fairly well for me... I
              > > > wasn't
              > > > > as angry and the panic attacks stopped. I made
              > > > > meditation a regular habit although I didn't have
              > > > > panic attacks, just to maintain. I taught myself
              > > > how
              > > > > to do this.
              > > > >
              > > > > One day, something happened though. I was
              > > > > actually in college and studying for finals. I
              > > > was
              > > > > feeling stressed out so I decided to meditate. It
              > > > was
              > > > > then that I had what others have described as a
              > > > mystic
              > > > > experience. A conciousness of everything, without
              > > > > thought. I was filled with energy afterwords and
              > > > a
              > > > > sense of elightment.
              > > > >
              > > > > It was then that I started to notice changes
              > > > in
              > > > > myself. I wouldn't ever lose my temper. Nothing
              > > > > really got to me... anxiety wasn't an issue and I
              > > > no
              > > > > longer had fears that I previously had. I went
              > > > from a
              > > > > C student to an A student. I felt more compassion
              > > > for
              > > > > others. Although I was raised catholic...
              > > > previously
              > > > > I hadn't been very religious. Afterwords I was
              > > > > certain of there being something else...
              > > > >
              > > > > Having this mystic experience became fairly
              > > > easy
              > > > > for me. I would be able to achieve it almost
              > > > every
              > > > > time I meditated. It was at this point in time
              > > > that I
              > > > > noticed a clairvoyance. I had prior knowledge of
              > > > the
              > > > > future.
              > > > >
              > > > > Now many may call me crazy... but I work in
              > > > the
              > > > > mental health field and really experience no
              > > > symptoms
              > > > > of mental illness. This clairvoyance can be
              > > > > described. It's like deja-vu. It is as if I
              > > > remember
              > > > > these things... although at times I need something
              > > > to
              > > > > jog my memory (a trigger). Then, later... I watch
              > > > as
              > > > > things happened exactly as I had "remembered."
              > > > >
              > > > > This did disturb me however... I didn't
              > > > always
              > > > > like what I saw. For a period of time I stopped
              > > > > meditating in hopes that this would go away... and
              > > > to
              > > > > an extent it did. However, I was drawn back into
              > > > > meditating and again took to it with ease.
              > > > >
              > > > > That brings me to why I am here... as again
              > > > with
              > > > > meditating I have the mystic experience. I again
              > > > was
              > > > > clairvoyant... which was fine until recently.
              > > > > Recently , again, what I have seen has disturbed
              > > > me.
              > > > > I am talking about things on a global scale as
              > > > well...
              > > >
              > > === message truncated ===
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > __________________________________________________
              > > Do You Yahoo!?
              > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
              > > http://mail.yahoo.com
              > >
              >
            • Benjamin Buehne
              Thank you very much Jeff and Aideen- I understand what you are saying and will take the advice to heart. What you are saying is true Jeff... it has been a
              Message 6 of 8 , Jul 16, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Thank you very much Jeff and Aideen-

                I understand what you are saying and will take
                the advice to heart. What you are saying is true
                Jeff... it has been a distraction and distressing...
                thus I haven't maintained very well. The truth is...
                if what I "remembered" is true or not really doesn't
                matter... as there is nothing I could do about it
                anyways. I must simply take my place.

                With Gratitude,
                Ben

                --- Jeff Belyea <jeff@...> wrote:

                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                > "aideenmck"
                > <aideenmck@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi, Ben
                > >
                > > I think what Jeff means is that it's not the
                > experience of
                > > clairvoyance that's the potential trap, but rather
                > one's
                > attachment
                > > to it.
                > > Is that right, Jeff?
                > >
                > > Aideen
                >
                > Yes, that and the fact that the "ego"
                > can come with "imaginings" disguised
                > as clairvoyance. And this can lead
                > back to the place where we feel we
                > have lost our enlightened perspective
                > - back to "trying to figure out"...
                > anything. Clarity has no questions.
                > And, as you know, no attachments.
                >
                > Notice that Ben is still identifying
                > himself as a seeker of enlightenment,
                > rather than a "finder" who can simply
                > attune to it.
                >
                > Jerry Wennstrom, in his book, "The
                > Inspired Heart" wrote "The singular
                > requirement of grace is to remain
                > fearlessly attuned to the heart."
                >
                > Ramana Maharshi said, "The aspirant
                > meditates to attain. The awakened
                > meditate to maintain."
                >
                > In the Tibetan Book of The Dead,
                > there is an admonition not to "follow
                > the elephant tracks, once you have
                > found the elephant.".
                >
                > So, my advice to Ben was to stay
                > attuned to the heart - his beautiful
                > experience that released him from
                > anger and anxiey, and not enter
                > a "wrestling match" with the issue
                > of clairvoyance. Let it happen, but
                > abandon it when it presents fear
                > or doubt.
                >
                > Thanks.
                >
                > Jeff
                >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                > Benjamin Buehne
                > > <benbuehne@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Thanks Jeff-
                > > >
                > > > I think I understand what you are saying but I
                > would
                > > > like to clarify. Basicly, there is a part of
                > me, in
                > > > my nature, that retains this anger and anxiety.
                > While
                > > > I may have been clairvoyant before... what I am
                > seeing
                > > > now may not, in fact, be this clairvoyance but
                > this
                > > > anger and anxiety sneeking into my conciousness.
                >
                > > > Possibly to frighten me out of continuing to
                > seek
                > > > enlightenment. Is this correct?
                > > >
                > > > Also, how can such a thing "rob us from ground
                > > > gained"? What do you need to do in order to
                > avoid
                > > > such a thing?
                > > >
                > > > I realize I am inexperienced so I appreciate
                > your help
                > > > (everyone in the group for that matter). This
                > state
                > > > is actually not something I initially desired...
                > I was
                > > > simply trying to relax and it happened
                > (interestingly
                > > > enough it was the first time I had meditated
                > outside).
                > > > I want to let you know that I am humble and
                > realize
                > > > how "green" I am... I am simply a person who has
                > taken
                > > > to the art with significantly more ease than
                > others.
                > > > Your help is greatly appreciated.
                > > >
                > > > Thank you for your response,
                > > > Ben
                > > > P.S. Do you know of anyone in the chicagoland
                > area
                > > > that is experienced enough to help me with such
                > > > matters?
                > > >
                > > > --- Jeff Belyea <jeff@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > > Hi Ben -
                > > > >
                > > > > While the mystic experience is rare,
                > > > > this group most probably has several,
                > > > > if not quite a few, who can relate
                > > > > to your story from similar direct
                > > > > experience.
                > > > >
                > > > > The shift to what you wrote of as,
                > > > > "consciousness of everything" and the
                > > > > clarity, compassion and comfort
                > > > > (peace of mind)is a common result.
                > > > > The clairvoyant part, and the
                > > > > occasions of deja vu, are not as
                > > > > common, but many people report them,
                > > > > as well.
                > > > >
                > > > > My experience, personally, and in
                > > > > teaching meditation for the past 30
                > > > > years has been that the former level
                > > > > of conscious of which you wrote -
                > > > > that anxious, needy "former self"
                > > > > - often referred to as "ego",
                > > > > is very sneaky, and does not
                > > > > give up its attempt to regain the
                > > > > dominant position in our consciousness.
                > > > >
                > > > > "It" can impose upon our imagination
                > > > > in the guise of clairvoyance. In
                > > > > this way, it will play upon our
                > > > > "spiritual pride" and can trap us
                > > > > in a return to "vain imaginings"
                > > > > that are not a product of our
                > > > > enlightenment. This is quicksand,
                > > > > and can rob us of the ground gained,
                > > > > in great part. It takes keen
                > > > > discernment and abject honesty
                > > > > with ourselves to be able to spot
                > > > > this distinction.
                > > > >
                > > > > This is when a mature teacher or
                > > > > "guru" can help guide an innocently
                > > > > deluded "seeker" who has egoistically
                > > > > talked themselves into claiming
                > > > > enlightenment or even "Guru" status,
                > > > > (Jody and Bruce - members here, can
                > > > > speak knowledgeably, and sometimes
                > > > > a bit jadedly, about this) and newbie
                > > > > enlightened ones.
                > > > >
                > > > > Even when the enlightenment
                > > > > experience seems, and is "known"
                > > > > as, absolutely complete, there is
                > > > > still a maintenance that is
                > > > > required to continue to reap
                > > > > the harvest of this new level
                > > > > of consciousness. It is easy to
                > > > > ignore this, because the new
                > > > > enlightenment is so pure and
                > > > > powerful that it feel invulnerable.
                > > > >
                > > > > In great part, it is, but while
                > > > > we are still living in the material
                > > > > world (thanks, Madonna) we are
                > > > > subject to a "warring" faction -
                > > > > in our own internal lives - as we see
                > > > > manifested externally in the worldly
                > > > > activity of war in the name of God.
                > > > >
                > > > > A red flag for spotting this activity is
                > > > > is when we feel a negative anticipation,
                > > > > or stuggle. The ego feeds on struggle
                > > > > and will step up the internal dialogue.
                > > > > And this is the antithesis of meditation
                > > > > as a waking consciousness. If we feed
                > > > > the struggle, we are in effect giving
                > > > > up our enlightened consciousness, which
                > > > > is above circumstance, and returning
                > > > > to a rationally-dominant concern.
                > > > >
                > > > > The logical or rational argument
                > > > > convincingly says we must be concerned
                > > > > and do our part. But our part is to
                > > > > maintain the enlightened perspective
                > > > > and bring peace by our positive
                > > > > energy and en-"light"ened view.
                > > > > This alone will contribute to the
                > > > > change of consciousness, and shift
                >
                === message truncated ===


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