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Introduction to myself.

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  • Benjamin Buehne
    Hi everyone, My name is Ben and I just joined. It is nice that such a place exists, I have struggled to find others to relate to as far as my experiences
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 14 12:54 AM
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      Hi everyone,
      My name is Ben and I just joined. It is nice
      that such a place exists, I have struggled to find
      others to relate to as far as my experiences
      meditating go. I thought I would take this
      opportunity to share with the group as far as who I am
      and what my experiences have been like to see if
      anyone can relate.



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    • Benjamin Buehne
      Hi everyone, My name is Ben and I just joined. It is nice that such a place exists, I have struggled to find others to relate to as far as my experiences
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 14 1:13 AM
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        Hi everyone,
        My name is Ben and I just joined. It is nice
        that such a place exists, I have struggled to find
        others to relate to as far as my experiences
        meditating go. Basicly no one else I know does it. I
        thought I would take this opportunity to share with
        the group as far as who I am and what my experiences
        have been like to see if anyone can relate.

        I used to be a fairly confused person. I would
        generally be filled with an anger and anxiety. I
        wasn't too fun to be around. 1 day I had a panic
        attack... they continued and actually got stronger as
        I had more of them.

        I heard about the effects of meditation and gave
        it a shot. It worked fairly well for me... I wasn't
        as angry and the panic attacks stopped. I made
        meditation a regular habit although I didn't have
        panic attacks, just to maintain. I taught myself how
        to do this.

        One day, something happened though. I was
        actually in college and studying for finals. I was
        feeling stressed out so I decided to meditate. It was
        then that I had what others have described as a mystic
        experience. A conciousness of everything, without
        thought. I was filled with energy afterwords and a
        sense of elightment.

        It was then that I started to notice changes in
        myself. I wouldn't ever lose my temper. Nothing
        really got to me... anxiety wasn't an issue and I no
        longer had fears that I previously had. I went from a
        C student to an A student. I felt more compassion for
        others. Although I was raised catholic... previously
        I hadn't been very religious. Afterwords I was
        certain of there being something else...

        Having this mystic experience became fairly easy
        for me. I would be able to achieve it almost every
        time I meditated. It was at this point in time that I
        noticed a clairvoyance. I had prior knowledge of the
        future.

        Now many may call me crazy... but I work in the
        mental health field and really experience no symptoms
        of mental illness. This clairvoyance can be
        described. It's like deja-vu. It is as if I remember
        these things... although at times I need something to
        jog my memory (a trigger). Then, later... I watch as
        things happened exactly as I had "remembered."

        This did disturb me however... I didn't always
        like what I saw. For a period of time I stopped
        meditating in hopes that this would go away... and to
        an extent it did. However, I was drawn back into
        meditating and again took to it with ease.

        That brings me to why I am here... as again with
        meditating I have the mystic experience. I again was
        clairvoyant... which was fine until recently.
        Recently , again, what I have seen has disturbed me.
        I am talking about things on a global scale as well...
        not certain if it's armageddon but certainly a period
        of transition and war that we will enter soon. I'm
        not talking about the war we are already in... one far
        more grevious and that occurs on the streets of the
        United States. I was wondering if anyone else has had
        similar experiences. Anyone else every get this
        cliarvoyant feeling? If so, have you also seen this?

        Pleasure making your acquaintance,
        Ben

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      • Jeff Belyea
        Hi Ben - While the mystic experience is rare, this group most probably has several, if not quite a few, who can relate to your story from similar direct
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 15 8:08 AM
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          Hi Ben -

          While the mystic experience is rare,
          this group most probably has several,
          if not quite a few, who can relate
          to your story from similar direct
          experience.

          The shift to what you wrote of as,
          "consciousness of everything" and the
          clarity, compassion and comfort
          (peace of mind)is a common result.
          The clairvoyant part, and the
          occasions of deja vu, are not as
          common, but many people report them,
          as well.

          My experience, personally, and in
          teaching meditation for the past 30
          years has been that the former level
          of conscious of which you wrote -
          that anxious, needy "former self"
          - often referred to as "ego",
          is very sneaky, and does not
          give up its attempt to regain the
          dominant position in our consciousness.

          "It" can impose upon our imagination
          in the guise of clairvoyance. In
          this way, it will play upon our
          "spiritual pride" and can trap us
          in a return to "vain imaginings"
          that are not a product of our
          enlightenment. This is quicksand,
          and can rob us of the ground gained,
          in great part. It takes keen
          discernment and abject honesty
          with ourselves to be able to spot
          this distinction.

          This is when a mature teacher or
          "guru" can help guide an innocently
          deluded "seeker" who has egoistically
          talked themselves into claiming
          enlightenment or even "Guru" status,
          (Jody and Bruce - members here, can
          speak knowledgeably, and sometimes
          a bit jadedly, about this) and newbie
          enlightened ones.

          Even when the enlightenment
          experience seems, and is "known"
          as, absolutely complete, there is
          still a maintenance that is
          required to continue to reap
          the harvest of this new level
          of consciousness. It is easy to
          ignore this, because the new
          enlightenment is so pure and
          powerful that it feel invulnerable.

          In great part, it is, but while
          we are still living in the material
          world (thanks, Madonna) we are
          subject to a "warring" faction -
          in our own internal lives - as we see
          manifested externally in the worldly
          activity of war in the name of God.

          A red flag for spotting this activity is
          is when we feel a negative anticipation,
          or stuggle. The ego feeds on struggle
          and will step up the internal dialogue.
          And this is the antithesis of meditation
          as a waking consciousness. If we feed
          the struggle, we are in effect giving
          up our enlightened consciousness, which
          is above circumstance, and returning
          to a rationally-dominant concern.

          The logical or rational argument
          convincingly says we must be concerned
          and do our part. But our part is to
          maintain the enlightened perspective
          and bring peace by our positive
          energy and en-"light"ened view.
          This alone will contribute to the
          change of consciousness, and shift
          in awareness, on a global scale that
          so many awakened teacher "know" as
          the destiny of humankind. Whoops,
          getting a little lofty now.

          I'll stop here. If you find some
          resonance with this, let me know,
          and I'll be happy to follow up with
          you privately.

          Peace,

          Jeff

          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Buehne
          <benbuehne@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi everyone,
          > My name is Ben and I just joined. It is nice
          > that such a place exists, I have struggled to find
          > others to relate to as far as my experiences
          > meditating go. Basicly no one else I know does it. I
          > thought I would take this opportunity to share with
          > the group as far as who I am and what my experiences
          > have been like to see if anyone can relate.
          >
          > I used to be a fairly confused person. I would
          > generally be filled with an anger and anxiety. I
          > wasn't too fun to be around. 1 day I had a panic
          > attack... they continued and actually got stronger as
          > I had more of them.
          >
          > I heard about the effects of meditation and gave
          > it a shot. It worked fairly well for me... I wasn't
          > as angry and the panic attacks stopped. I made
          > meditation a regular habit although I didn't have
          > panic attacks, just to maintain. I taught myself how
          > to do this.
          >
          > One day, something happened though. I was
          > actually in college and studying for finals. I was
          > feeling stressed out so I decided to meditate. It was
          > then that I had what others have described as a mystic
          > experience. A conciousness of everything, without
          > thought. I was filled with energy afterwords and a
          > sense of elightment.
          >
          > It was then that I started to notice changes in
          > myself. I wouldn't ever lose my temper. Nothing
          > really got to me... anxiety wasn't an issue and I no
          > longer had fears that I previously had. I went from a
          > C student to an A student. I felt more compassion for
          > others. Although I was raised catholic... previously
          > I hadn't been very religious. Afterwords I was
          > certain of there being something else...
          >
          > Having this mystic experience became fairly easy
          > for me. I would be able to achieve it almost every
          > time I meditated. It was at this point in time that I
          > noticed a clairvoyance. I had prior knowledge of the
          > future.
          >
          > Now many may call me crazy... but I work in the
          > mental health field and really experience no symptoms
          > of mental illness. This clairvoyance can be
          > described. It's like deja-vu. It is as if I remember
          > these things... although at times I need something to
          > jog my memory (a trigger). Then, later... I watch as
          > things happened exactly as I had "remembered."
          >
          > This did disturb me however... I didn't always
          > like what I saw. For a period of time I stopped
          > meditating in hopes that this would go away... and to
          > an extent it did. However, I was drawn back into
          > meditating and again took to it with ease.
          >
          > That brings me to why I am here... as again with
          > meditating I have the mystic experience. I again was
          > clairvoyant... which was fine until recently.
          > Recently , again, what I have seen has disturbed me.
          > I am talking about things on a global scale as well...
          > not certain if it's armageddon but certainly a period
          > of transition and war that we will enter soon. I'm
          > not talking about the war we are already in... one far
          > more grevious and that occurs on the streets of the
          > United States. I was wondering if anyone else has had
          > similar experiences. Anyone else every get this
          > cliarvoyant feeling? If so, have you also seen this?
          >
          > Pleasure making your acquaintance,
          > Ben
          >
          > __________________________________________________
          > Do You Yahoo!?
          > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          > http://mail.yahoo.com
          >
        • Benjamin Buehne
          Thanks Jeff- I think I understand what you are saying but I would like to clarify. Basicly, there is a part of me, in my nature, that retains this anger and
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 16 9:11 AM
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            Thanks Jeff-

            I think I understand what you are saying but I would
            like to clarify. Basicly, there is a part of me, in
            my nature, that retains this anger and anxiety. While
            I may have been clairvoyant before... what I am seeing
            now may not, in fact, be this clairvoyance but this
            anger and anxiety sneeking into my conciousness.
            Possibly to frighten me out of continuing to seek
            enlightenment. Is this correct?

            Also, how can such a thing "rob us from ground
            gained"? What do you need to do in order to avoid
            such a thing?

            I realize I am inexperienced so I appreciate your help
            (everyone in the group for that matter). This state
            is actually not something I initially desired... I was
            simply trying to relax and it happened (interestingly
            enough it was the first time I had meditated outside).
            I want to let you know that I am humble and realize
            how "green" I am... I am simply a person who has taken
            to the art with significantly more ease than others.
            Your help is greatly appreciated.

            Thank you for your response,
            Ben
            P.S. Do you know of anyone in the chicagoland area
            that is experienced enough to help me with such
            matters?

            --- Jeff Belyea <jeff@...> wrote:

            > Hi Ben -
            >
            > While the mystic experience is rare,
            > this group most probably has several,
            > if not quite a few, who can relate
            > to your story from similar direct
            > experience.
            >
            > The shift to what you wrote of as,
            > "consciousness of everything" and the
            > clarity, compassion and comfort
            > (peace of mind)is a common result.
            > The clairvoyant part, and the
            > occasions of deja vu, are not as
            > common, but many people report them,
            > as well.
            >
            > My experience, personally, and in
            > teaching meditation for the past 30
            > years has been that the former level
            > of conscious of which you wrote -
            > that anxious, needy "former self"
            > - often referred to as "ego",
            > is very sneaky, and does not
            > give up its attempt to regain the
            > dominant position in our consciousness.
            >
            > "It" can impose upon our imagination
            > in the guise of clairvoyance. In
            > this way, it will play upon our
            > "spiritual pride" and can trap us
            > in a return to "vain imaginings"
            > that are not a product of our
            > enlightenment. This is quicksand,
            > and can rob us of the ground gained,
            > in great part. It takes keen
            > discernment and abject honesty
            > with ourselves to be able to spot
            > this distinction.
            >
            > This is when a mature teacher or
            > "guru" can help guide an innocently
            > deluded "seeker" who has egoistically
            > talked themselves into claiming
            > enlightenment or even "Guru" status,
            > (Jody and Bruce - members here, can
            > speak knowledgeably, and sometimes
            > a bit jadedly, about this) and newbie
            > enlightened ones.
            >
            > Even when the enlightenment
            > experience seems, and is "known"
            > as, absolutely complete, there is
            > still a maintenance that is
            > required to continue to reap
            > the harvest of this new level
            > of consciousness. It is easy to
            > ignore this, because the new
            > enlightenment is so pure and
            > powerful that it feel invulnerable.
            >
            > In great part, it is, but while
            > we are still living in the material
            > world (thanks, Madonna) we are
            > subject to a "warring" faction -
            > in our own internal lives - as we see
            > manifested externally in the worldly
            > activity of war in the name of God.
            >
            > A red flag for spotting this activity is
            > is when we feel a negative anticipation,
            > or stuggle. The ego feeds on struggle
            > and will step up the internal dialogue.
            > And this is the antithesis of meditation
            > as a waking consciousness. If we feed
            > the struggle, we are in effect giving
            > up our enlightened consciousness, which
            > is above circumstance, and returning
            > to a rationally-dominant concern.
            >
            > The logical or rational argument
            > convincingly says we must be concerned
            > and do our part. But our part is to
            > maintain the enlightened perspective
            > and bring peace by our positive
            > energy and en-"light"ened view.
            > This alone will contribute to the
            > change of consciousness, and shift
            > in awareness, on a global scale that
            > so many awakened teacher "know" as
            > the destiny of humankind. Whoops,
            > getting a little lofty now.
            >
            > I'll stop here. If you find some
            > resonance with this, let me know,
            > and I'll be happy to follow up with
            > you privately.
            >
            > Peace,
            >
            > Jeff
            >
            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
            > Benjamin Buehne
            > <benbuehne@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi everyone,
            > > My name is Ben and I just joined. It is nice
            > > that such a place exists, I have struggled to find
            > > others to relate to as far as my experiences
            > > meditating go. Basicly no one else I know does
            > it. I
            > > thought I would take this opportunity to share
            > with
            > > the group as far as who I am and what my
            > experiences
            > > have been like to see if anyone can relate.
            > >
            > > I used to be a fairly confused person. I
            > would
            > > generally be filled with an anger and anxiety. I
            > > wasn't too fun to be around. 1 day I had a panic
            > > attack... they continued and actually got stronger
            > as
            > > I had more of them.
            > >
            > > I heard about the effects of meditation and
            > gave
            > > it a shot. It worked fairly well for me... I
            > wasn't
            > > as angry and the panic attacks stopped. I made
            > > meditation a regular habit although I didn't have
            > > panic attacks, just to maintain. I taught myself
            > how
            > > to do this.
            > >
            > > One day, something happened though. I was
            > > actually in college and studying for finals. I
            > was
            > > feeling stressed out so I decided to meditate. It
            > was
            > > then that I had what others have described as a
            > mystic
            > > experience. A conciousness of everything, without
            > > thought. I was filled with energy afterwords and
            > a
            > > sense of elightment.
            > >
            > > It was then that I started to notice changes
            > in
            > > myself. I wouldn't ever lose my temper. Nothing
            > > really got to me... anxiety wasn't an issue and I
            > no
            > > longer had fears that I previously had. I went
            > from a
            > > C student to an A student. I felt more compassion
            > for
            > > others. Although I was raised catholic...
            > previously
            > > I hadn't been very religious. Afterwords I was
            > > certain of there being something else...
            > >
            > > Having this mystic experience became fairly
            > easy
            > > for me. I would be able to achieve it almost
            > every
            > > time I meditated. It was at this point in time
            > that I
            > > noticed a clairvoyance. I had prior knowledge of
            > the
            > > future.
            > >
            > > Now many may call me crazy... but I work in
            > the
            > > mental health field and really experience no
            > symptoms
            > > of mental illness. This clairvoyance can be
            > > described. It's like deja-vu. It is as if I
            > remember
            > > these things... although at times I need something
            > to
            > > jog my memory (a trigger). Then, later... I watch
            > as
            > > things happened exactly as I had "remembered."
            > >
            > > This did disturb me however... I didn't
            > always
            > > like what I saw. For a period of time I stopped
            > > meditating in hopes that this would go away... and
            > to
            > > an extent it did. However, I was drawn back into
            > > meditating and again took to it with ease.
            > >
            > > That brings me to why I am here... as again
            > with
            > > meditating I have the mystic experience. I again
            > was
            > > clairvoyant... which was fine until recently.
            > > Recently , again, what I have seen has disturbed
            > me.
            > > I am talking about things on a global scale as
            > well...
            >
            === message truncated ===



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          • aideenmck
            Hi, Ben I think what Jeff means is that it s not the experience of clairvoyance that s the potential trap, but rather one s attachment to it. Is that right,
            Message 5 of 8 , Jul 16 9:59 AM
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              Hi, Ben

              I think what Jeff means is that it's not the experience of
              clairvoyance that's the potential trap, but rather one's attachment
              to it.
              Is that right, Jeff?

              Aideen


              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Buehne
              <benbuehne@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks Jeff-
              >
              > I think I understand what you are saying but I would
              > like to clarify. Basicly, there is a part of me, in
              > my nature, that retains this anger and anxiety. While
              > I may have been clairvoyant before... what I am seeing
              > now may not, in fact, be this clairvoyance but this
              > anger and anxiety sneeking into my conciousness.
              > Possibly to frighten me out of continuing to seek
              > enlightenment. Is this correct?
              >
              > Also, how can such a thing "rob us from ground
              > gained"? What do you need to do in order to avoid
              > such a thing?
              >
              > I realize I am inexperienced so I appreciate your help
              > (everyone in the group for that matter). This state
              > is actually not something I initially desired... I was
              > simply trying to relax and it happened (interestingly
              > enough it was the first time I had meditated outside).
              > I want to let you know that I am humble and realize
              > how "green" I am... I am simply a person who has taken
              > to the art with significantly more ease than others.
              > Your help is greatly appreciated.
              >
              > Thank you for your response,
              > Ben
              > P.S. Do you know of anyone in the chicagoland area
              > that is experienced enough to help me with such
              > matters?
              >
              > --- Jeff Belyea <jeff@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Hi Ben -
              > >
              > > While the mystic experience is rare,
              > > this group most probably has several,
              > > if not quite a few, who can relate
              > > to your story from similar direct
              > > experience.
              > >
              > > The shift to what you wrote of as,
              > > "consciousness of everything" and the
              > > clarity, compassion and comfort
              > > (peace of mind)is a common result.
              > > The clairvoyant part, and the
              > > occasions of deja vu, are not as
              > > common, but many people report them,
              > > as well.
              > >
              > > My experience, personally, and in
              > > teaching meditation for the past 30
              > > years has been that the former level
              > > of conscious of which you wrote -
              > > that anxious, needy "former self"
              > > - often referred to as "ego",
              > > is very sneaky, and does not
              > > give up its attempt to regain the
              > > dominant position in our consciousness.
              > >
              > > "It" can impose upon our imagination
              > > in the guise of clairvoyance. In
              > > this way, it will play upon our
              > > "spiritual pride" and can trap us
              > > in a return to "vain imaginings"
              > > that are not a product of our
              > > enlightenment. This is quicksand,
              > > and can rob us of the ground gained,
              > > in great part. It takes keen
              > > discernment and abject honesty
              > > with ourselves to be able to spot
              > > this distinction.
              > >
              > > This is when a mature teacher or
              > > "guru" can help guide an innocently
              > > deluded "seeker" who has egoistically
              > > talked themselves into claiming
              > > enlightenment or even "Guru" status,
              > > (Jody and Bruce - members here, can
              > > speak knowledgeably, and sometimes
              > > a bit jadedly, about this) and newbie
              > > enlightened ones.
              > >
              > > Even when the enlightenment
              > > experience seems, and is "known"
              > > as, absolutely complete, there is
              > > still a maintenance that is
              > > required to continue to reap
              > > the harvest of this new level
              > > of consciousness. It is easy to
              > > ignore this, because the new
              > > enlightenment is so pure and
              > > powerful that it feel invulnerable.
              > >
              > > In great part, it is, but while
              > > we are still living in the material
              > > world (thanks, Madonna) we are
              > > subject to a "warring" faction -
              > > in our own internal lives - as we see
              > > manifested externally in the worldly
              > > activity of war in the name of God.
              > >
              > > A red flag for spotting this activity is
              > > is when we feel a negative anticipation,
              > > or stuggle. The ego feeds on struggle
              > > and will step up the internal dialogue.
              > > And this is the antithesis of meditation
              > > as a waking consciousness. If we feed
              > > the struggle, we are in effect giving
              > > up our enlightened consciousness, which
              > > is above circumstance, and returning
              > > to a rationally-dominant concern.
              > >
              > > The logical or rational argument
              > > convincingly says we must be concerned
              > > and do our part. But our part is to
              > > maintain the enlightened perspective
              > > and bring peace by our positive
              > > energy and en-"light"ened view.
              > > This alone will contribute to the
              > > change of consciousness, and shift
              > > in awareness, on a global scale that
              > > so many awakened teacher "know" as
              > > the destiny of humankind. Whoops,
              > > getting a little lofty now.
              > >
              > > I'll stop here. If you find some
              > > resonance with this, let me know,
              > > and I'll be happy to follow up with
              > > you privately.
              > >
              > > Peace,
              > >
              > > Jeff
              > >
              > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
              > > Benjamin Buehne
              > > <benbuehne@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hi everyone,
              > > > My name is Ben and I just joined. It is nice
              > > > that such a place exists, I have struggled to find
              > > > others to relate to as far as my experiences
              > > > meditating go. Basicly no one else I know does
              > > it. I
              > > > thought I would take this opportunity to share
              > > with
              > > > the group as far as who I am and what my
              > > experiences
              > > > have been like to see if anyone can relate.
              > > >
              > > > I used to be a fairly confused person. I
              > > would
              > > > generally be filled with an anger and anxiety. I
              > > > wasn't too fun to be around. 1 day I had a panic
              > > > attack... they continued and actually got stronger
              > > as
              > > > I had more of them.
              > > >
              > > > I heard about the effects of meditation and
              > > gave
              > > > it a shot. It worked fairly well for me... I
              > > wasn't
              > > > as angry and the panic attacks stopped. I made
              > > > meditation a regular habit although I didn't have
              > > > panic attacks, just to maintain. I taught myself
              > > how
              > > > to do this.
              > > >
              > > > One day, something happened though. I was
              > > > actually in college and studying for finals. I
              > > was
              > > > feeling stressed out so I decided to meditate. It
              > > was
              > > > then that I had what others have described as a
              > > mystic
              > > > experience. A conciousness of everything, without
              > > > thought. I was filled with energy afterwords and
              > > a
              > > > sense of elightment.
              > > >
              > > > It was then that I started to notice changes
              > > in
              > > > myself. I wouldn't ever lose my temper. Nothing
              > > > really got to me... anxiety wasn't an issue and I
              > > no
              > > > longer had fears that I previously had. I went
              > > from a
              > > > C student to an A student. I felt more compassion
              > > for
              > > > others. Although I was raised catholic...
              > > previously
              > > > I hadn't been very religious. Afterwords I was
              > > > certain of there being something else...
              > > >
              > > > Having this mystic experience became fairly
              > > easy
              > > > for me. I would be able to achieve it almost
              > > every
              > > > time I meditated. It was at this point in time
              > > that I
              > > > noticed a clairvoyance. I had prior knowledge of
              > > the
              > > > future.
              > > >
              > > > Now many may call me crazy... but I work in
              > > the
              > > > mental health field and really experience no
              > > symptoms
              > > > of mental illness. This clairvoyance can be
              > > > described. It's like deja-vu. It is as if I
              > > remember
              > > > these things... although at times I need something
              > > to
              > > > jog my memory (a trigger). Then, later... I watch
              > > as
              > > > things happened exactly as I had "remembered."
              > > >
              > > > This did disturb me however... I didn't
              > > always
              > > > like what I saw. For a period of time I stopped
              > > > meditating in hopes that this would go away... and
              > > to
              > > > an extent it did. However, I was drawn back into
              > > > meditating and again took to it with ease.
              > > >
              > > > That brings me to why I am here... as again
              > > with
              > > > meditating I have the mystic experience. I again
              > > was
              > > > clairvoyant... which was fine until recently.
              > > > Recently , again, what I have seen has disturbed
              > > me.
              > > > I am talking about things on a global scale as
              > > well...
              > >
              > === message truncated ===
              >
              >
              >
              > __________________________________________________
              > Do You Yahoo!?
              > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
              > http://mail.yahoo.com
              >
            • Jeff Belyea
              ... I don t want to to add confusion, but your nature is not angry and anxious. That is learned behavior and reactionary rather than original thinking. What
              Message 6 of 8 , Jul 16 10:59 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Buehne
                <benbuehne@...> wrote:
                >
                > Thanks Jeff-
                >
                > I think I understand what you are saying but I would
                > like to clarify. Basicly, there is a part of me, in
                > my nature, that retains this anger and anxiety.

                I don't want to to add confusion, but your "nature"
                is not angry and anxious. That is learned behavior
                and reactionary rather than original thinking.

                What you experienced (and experience) from meditation -
                the lack of anger and anxiety, the peace of mind and
                compassion; those are your "nature".


                While
                > I may have been clairvoyant before... what I am seeing
                > now may not, in fact, be this clairvoyance but this
                > anger and anxiety sneeking into my conciousness.
                > Possibly to frighten me out of continuing to seek
                > enlightenment. Is this correct?

                Yes. Clairvoyance may be genuine - up to a point. When
                the seeming clarivoyance produces anger and/or anxiety,
                that is a product of the "ego", the linear, rational,
                conditioned mind, doing exactly what you discribe above.
                When you experienced release from this, you where
                connecting to the genuine "you". As you "seek" enlightenment,
                the ego is threatened. But I wonder why you put the
                continuance of your journey in those terms. You have
                experienced enlightenment. Rather than seek it, just
                accept it and let it "present itself" to you. This will
                lead you to an effortless, productive and joyful life.

                >
                > Also, how can such a thing "rob us from ground
                > gained"? What do you need to do in order to avoid
                > such a thing?

                Clarivoyance or any "gift" or "powers" are toys compared
                to enlightenment. They are trinkets. When we become
                fascinated by them, we are in "leaving" the realm of
                enlightened thought and experience, and the more we
                allow ourselves to be swept up with these thoughts -
                those that are negative and anxiety producing, the more
                we "rehearse". See my previous
                paragraph. More later. My show is upcoming.



                >
                > I realize I am inexperienced so I appreciate your help
                > (everyone in the group for that matter). This state
                > is actually not something I initially desired... I was
                > simply trying to relax and it happened (interestingly
                > enough it was the first time I had meditated outside).
                > I want to let you know that I am humble and realize
                > how "green" I am... I am simply a person who has taken
                > to the art with significantly more ease than others.
                > Your help is greatly appreciated.
                >
                > Thank you for your response,
                > Ben
                > P.S. Do you know of anyone in the chicagoland area
                > that is experienced enough to help me with such
                > matters?
                >
                > --- Jeff Belyea <jeff@...> wrote:
                >
                > > Hi Ben -
                > >
                > > While the mystic experience is rare,
                > > this group most probably has several,
                > > if not quite a few, who can relate
                > > to your story from similar direct
                > > experience.
                > >
                > > The shift to what you wrote of as,
                > > "consciousness of everything" and the
                > > clarity, compassion and comfort
                > > (peace of mind)is a common result.
                > > The clairvoyant part, and the
                > > occasions of deja vu, are not as
                > > common, but many people report them,
                > > as well.
                > >
                > > My experience, personally, and in
                > > teaching meditation for the past 30
                > > years has been that the former level
                > > of conscious of which you wrote -
                > > that anxious, needy "former self"
                > > - often referred to as "ego",
                > > is very sneaky, and does not
                > > give up its attempt to regain the
                > > dominant position in our consciousness.
                > >
                > > "It" can impose upon our imagination
                > > in the guise of clairvoyance. In
                > > this way, it will play upon our
                > > "spiritual pride" and can trap us
                > > in a return to "vain imaginings"
                > > that are not a product of our
                > > enlightenment. This is quicksand,
                > > and can rob us of the ground gained,
                > > in great part. It takes keen
                > > discernment and abject honesty
                > > with ourselves to be able to spot
                > > this distinction.
                > >
                > > This is when a mature teacher or
                > > "guru" can help guide an innocently
                > > deluded "seeker" who has egoistically
                > > talked themselves into claiming
                > > enlightenment or even "Guru" status,
                > > (Jody and Bruce - members here, can
                > > speak knowledgeably, and sometimes
                > > a bit jadedly, about this) and newbie
                > > enlightened ones.
                > >
                > > Even when the enlightenment
                > > experience seems, and is "known"
                > > as, absolutely complete, there is
                > > still a maintenance that is
                > > required to continue to reap
                > > the harvest of this new level
                > > of consciousness. It is easy to
                > > ignore this, because the new
                > > enlightenment is so pure and
                > > powerful that it feel invulnerable.
                > >
                > > In great part, it is, but while
                > > we are still living in the material
                > > world (thanks, Madonna) we are
                > > subject to a "warring" faction -
                > > in our own internal lives - as we see
                > > manifested externally in the worldly
                > > activity of war in the name of God.
                > >
                > > A red flag for spotting this activity is
                > > is when we feel a negative anticipation,
                > > or stuggle. The ego feeds on struggle
                > > and will step up the internal dialogue.
                > > And this is the antithesis of meditation
                > > as a waking consciousness. If we feed
                > > the struggle, we are in effect giving
                > > up our enlightened consciousness, which
                > > is above circumstance, and returning
                > > to a rationally-dominant concern.
                > >
                > > The logical or rational argument
                > > convincingly says we must be concerned
                > > and do our part. But our part is to
                > > maintain the enlightened perspective
                > > and bring peace by our positive
                > > energy and en-"light"ened view.
                > > This alone will contribute to the
                > > change of consciousness, and shift
                > > in awareness, on a global scale that
                > > so many awakened teacher "know" as
                > > the destiny of humankind. Whoops,
                > > getting a little lofty now.
                > >
                > > I'll stop here. If you find some
                > > resonance with this, let me know,
                > > and I'll be happy to follow up with
                > > you privately.
                > >
                > > Peace,
                > >
                > > Jeff
                > >
                > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                > > Benjamin Buehne
                > > <benbuehne@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hi everyone,
                > > > My name is Ben and I just joined. It is nice
                > > > that such a place exists, I have struggled to find
                > > > others to relate to as far as my experiences
                > > > meditating go. Basicly no one else I know does
                > > it. I
                > > > thought I would take this opportunity to share
                > > with
                > > > the group as far as who I am and what my
                > > experiences
                > > > have been like to see if anyone can relate.
                > > >
                > > > I used to be a fairly confused person. I
                > > would
                > > > generally be filled with an anger and anxiety. I
                > > > wasn't too fun to be around. 1 day I had a panic
                > > > attack... they continued and actually got stronger
                > > as
                > > > I had more of them.
                > > >
                > > > I heard about the effects of meditation and
                > > gave
                > > > it a shot. It worked fairly well for me... I
                > > wasn't
                > > > as angry and the panic attacks stopped. I made
                > > > meditation a regular habit although I didn't have
                > > > panic attacks, just to maintain. I taught myself
                > > how
                > > > to do this.
                > > >
                > > > One day, something happened though. I was
                > > > actually in college and studying for finals. I
                > > was
                > > > feeling stressed out so I decided to meditate. It
                > > was
                > > > then that I had what others have described as a
                > > mystic
                > > > experience. A conciousness of everything, without
                > > > thought. I was filled with energy afterwords and
                > > a
                > > > sense of elightment.
                > > >
                > > > It was then that I started to notice changes
                > > in
                > > > myself. I wouldn't ever lose my temper. Nothing
                > > > really got to me... anxiety wasn't an issue and I
                > > no
                > > > longer had fears that I previously had. I went
                > > from a
                > > > C student to an A student. I felt more compassion
                > > for
                > > > others. Although I was raised catholic...
                > > previously
                > > > I hadn't been very religious. Afterwords I was
                > > > certain of there being something else...
                > > >
                > > > Having this mystic experience became fairly
                > > easy
                > > > for me. I would be able to achieve it almost
                > > every
                > > > time I meditated. It was at this point in time
                > > that I
                > > > noticed a clairvoyance. I had prior knowledge of
                > > the
                > > > future.
                > > >
                > > > Now many may call me crazy... but I work in
                > > the
                > > > mental health field and really experience no
                > > symptoms
                > > > of mental illness. This clairvoyance can be
                > > > described. It's like deja-vu. It is as if I
                > > remember
                > > > these things... although at times I need something
                > > to
                > > > jog my memory (a trigger). Then, later... I watch
                > > as
                > > > things happened exactly as I had "remembered."
                > > >
                > > > This did disturb me however... I didn't
                > > always
                > > > like what I saw. For a period of time I stopped
                > > > meditating in hopes that this would go away... and
                > > to
                > > > an extent it did. However, I was drawn back into
                > > > meditating and again took to it with ease.
                > > >
                > > > That brings me to why I am here... as again
                > > with
                > > > meditating I have the mystic experience. I again
                > > was
                > > > clairvoyant... which was fine until recently.
                > > > Recently , again, what I have seen has disturbed
                > > me.
                > > > I am talking about things on a global scale as
                > > well...
                > >
                > === message truncated ===
                >
                >
                >
                > __________________________________________________
                > Do You Yahoo!?
                > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                > http://mail.yahoo.com
                >
              • Jeff Belyea
                ... attachment ... Yes, that and the fact that the ego can come with imaginings disguised as clairvoyance. And this can lead back to the place where we
                Message 7 of 8 , Jul 16 12:10 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "aideenmck"
                  <aideenmck@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi, Ben
                  >
                  > I think what Jeff means is that it's not the experience of
                  > clairvoyance that's the potential trap, but rather one's
                  attachment
                  > to it.
                  > Is that right, Jeff?
                  >
                  > Aideen

                  Yes, that and the fact that the "ego"
                  can come with "imaginings" disguised
                  as clairvoyance. And this can lead
                  back to the place where we feel we
                  have lost our enlightened perspective
                  - back to "trying to figure out"...
                  anything. Clarity has no questions.
                  And, as you know, no attachments.

                  Notice that Ben is still identifying
                  himself as a seeker of enlightenment,
                  rather than a "finder" who can simply
                  attune to it.

                  Jerry Wennstrom, in his book, "The
                  Inspired Heart" wrote "The singular
                  requirement of grace is to remain
                  fearlessly attuned to the heart."

                  Ramana Maharshi said, "The aspirant
                  meditates to attain. The awakened
                  meditate to maintain."

                  In the Tibetan Book of The Dead,
                  there is an admonition not to "follow
                  the elephant tracks, once you have
                  found the elephant.".

                  So, my advice to Ben was to stay
                  attuned to the heart - his beautiful
                  experience that released him from
                  anger and anxiey, and not enter
                  a "wrestling match" with the issue
                  of clairvoyance. Let it happen, but
                  abandon it when it presents fear
                  or doubt.

                  Thanks.

                  Jeff

                  >
                  >
                  > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Buehne
                  > <benbuehne@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Thanks Jeff-
                  > >
                  > > I think I understand what you are saying but I would
                  > > like to clarify. Basicly, there is a part of me, in
                  > > my nature, that retains this anger and anxiety. While
                  > > I may have been clairvoyant before... what I am seeing
                  > > now may not, in fact, be this clairvoyance but this
                  > > anger and anxiety sneeking into my conciousness.
                  > > Possibly to frighten me out of continuing to seek
                  > > enlightenment. Is this correct?
                  > >
                  > > Also, how can such a thing "rob us from ground
                  > > gained"? What do you need to do in order to avoid
                  > > such a thing?
                  > >
                  > > I realize I am inexperienced so I appreciate your help
                  > > (everyone in the group for that matter). This state
                  > > is actually not something I initially desired... I was
                  > > simply trying to relax and it happened (interestingly
                  > > enough it was the first time I had meditated outside).
                  > > I want to let you know that I am humble and realize
                  > > how "green" I am... I am simply a person who has taken
                  > > to the art with significantly more ease than others.
                  > > Your help is greatly appreciated.
                  > >
                  > > Thank you for your response,
                  > > Ben
                  > > P.S. Do you know of anyone in the chicagoland area
                  > > that is experienced enough to help me with such
                  > > matters?
                  > >
                  > > --- Jeff Belyea <jeff@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > Hi Ben -
                  > > >
                  > > > While the mystic experience is rare,
                  > > > this group most probably has several,
                  > > > if not quite a few, who can relate
                  > > > to your story from similar direct
                  > > > experience.
                  > > >
                  > > > The shift to what you wrote of as,
                  > > > "consciousness of everything" and the
                  > > > clarity, compassion and comfort
                  > > > (peace of mind)is a common result.
                  > > > The clairvoyant part, and the
                  > > > occasions of deja vu, are not as
                  > > > common, but many people report them,
                  > > > as well.
                  > > >
                  > > > My experience, personally, and in
                  > > > teaching meditation for the past 30
                  > > > years has been that the former level
                  > > > of conscious of which you wrote -
                  > > > that anxious, needy "former self"
                  > > > - often referred to as "ego",
                  > > > is very sneaky, and does not
                  > > > give up its attempt to regain the
                  > > > dominant position in our consciousness.
                  > > >
                  > > > "It" can impose upon our imagination
                  > > > in the guise of clairvoyance. In
                  > > > this way, it will play upon our
                  > > > "spiritual pride" and can trap us
                  > > > in a return to "vain imaginings"
                  > > > that are not a product of our
                  > > > enlightenment. This is quicksand,
                  > > > and can rob us of the ground gained,
                  > > > in great part. It takes keen
                  > > > discernment and abject honesty
                  > > > with ourselves to be able to spot
                  > > > this distinction.
                  > > >
                  > > > This is when a mature teacher or
                  > > > "guru" can help guide an innocently
                  > > > deluded "seeker" who has egoistically
                  > > > talked themselves into claiming
                  > > > enlightenment or even "Guru" status,
                  > > > (Jody and Bruce - members here, can
                  > > > speak knowledgeably, and sometimes
                  > > > a bit jadedly, about this) and newbie
                  > > > enlightened ones.
                  > > >
                  > > > Even when the enlightenment
                  > > > experience seems, and is "known"
                  > > > as, absolutely complete, there is
                  > > > still a maintenance that is
                  > > > required to continue to reap
                  > > > the harvest of this new level
                  > > > of consciousness. It is easy to
                  > > > ignore this, because the new
                  > > > enlightenment is so pure and
                  > > > powerful that it feel invulnerable.
                  > > >
                  > > > In great part, it is, but while
                  > > > we are still living in the material
                  > > > world (thanks, Madonna) we are
                  > > > subject to a "warring" faction -
                  > > > in our own internal lives - as we see
                  > > > manifested externally in the worldly
                  > > > activity of war in the name of God.
                  > > >
                  > > > A red flag for spotting this activity is
                  > > > is when we feel a negative anticipation,
                  > > > or stuggle. The ego feeds on struggle
                  > > > and will step up the internal dialogue.
                  > > > And this is the antithesis of meditation
                  > > > as a waking consciousness. If we feed
                  > > > the struggle, we are in effect giving
                  > > > up our enlightened consciousness, which
                  > > > is above circumstance, and returning
                  > > > to a rationally-dominant concern.
                  > > >
                  > > > The logical or rational argument
                  > > > convincingly says we must be concerned
                  > > > and do our part. But our part is to
                  > > > maintain the enlightened perspective
                  > > > and bring peace by our positive
                  > > > energy and en-"light"ened view.
                  > > > This alone will contribute to the
                  > > > change of consciousness, and shift
                  > > > in awareness, on a global scale that
                  > > > so many awakened teacher "know" as
                  > > > the destiny of humankind. Whoops,
                  > > > getting a little lofty now.
                  > > >
                  > > > I'll stop here. If you find some
                  > > > resonance with this, let me know,
                  > > > and I'll be happy to follow up with
                  > > > you privately.
                  > > >
                  > > > Peace,
                  > > >
                  > > > Jeff
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                  > > > Benjamin Buehne
                  > > > <benbuehne@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hi everyone,
                  > > > > My name is Ben and I just joined. It is nice
                  > > > > that such a place exists, I have struggled to find
                  > > > > others to relate to as far as my experiences
                  > > > > meditating go. Basicly no one else I know does
                  > > > it. I
                  > > > > thought I would take this opportunity to share
                  > > > with
                  > > > > the group as far as who I am and what my
                  > > > experiences
                  > > > > have been like to see if anyone can relate.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I used to be a fairly confused person. I
                  > > > would
                  > > > > generally be filled with an anger and anxiety. I
                  > > > > wasn't too fun to be around. 1 day I had a panic
                  > > > > attack... they continued and actually got stronger
                  > > > as
                  > > > > I had more of them.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I heard about the effects of meditation and
                  > > > gave
                  > > > > it a shot. It worked fairly well for me... I
                  > > > wasn't
                  > > > > as angry and the panic attacks stopped. I made
                  > > > > meditation a regular habit although I didn't have
                  > > > > panic attacks, just to maintain. I taught myself
                  > > > how
                  > > > > to do this.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > One day, something happened though. I was
                  > > > > actually in college and studying for finals. I
                  > > > was
                  > > > > feeling stressed out so I decided to meditate. It
                  > > > was
                  > > > > then that I had what others have described as a
                  > > > mystic
                  > > > > experience. A conciousness of everything, without
                  > > > > thought. I was filled with energy afterwords and
                  > > > a
                  > > > > sense of elightment.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > It was then that I started to notice changes
                  > > > in
                  > > > > myself. I wouldn't ever lose my temper. Nothing
                  > > > > really got to me... anxiety wasn't an issue and I
                  > > > no
                  > > > > longer had fears that I previously had. I went
                  > > > from a
                  > > > > C student to an A student. I felt more compassion
                  > > > for
                  > > > > others. Although I was raised catholic...
                  > > > previously
                  > > > > I hadn't been very religious. Afterwords I was
                  > > > > certain of there being something else...
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Having this mystic experience became fairly
                  > > > easy
                  > > > > for me. I would be able to achieve it almost
                  > > > every
                  > > > > time I meditated. It was at this point in time
                  > > > that I
                  > > > > noticed a clairvoyance. I had prior knowledge of
                  > > > the
                  > > > > future.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Now many may call me crazy... but I work in
                  > > > the
                  > > > > mental health field and really experience no
                  > > > symptoms
                  > > > > of mental illness. This clairvoyance can be
                  > > > > described. It's like deja-vu. It is as if I
                  > > > remember
                  > > > > these things... although at times I need something
                  > > > to
                  > > > > jog my memory (a trigger). Then, later... I watch
                  > > > as
                  > > > > things happened exactly as I had "remembered."
                  > > > >
                  > > > > This did disturb me however... I didn't
                  > > > always
                  > > > > like what I saw. For a period of time I stopped
                  > > > > meditating in hopes that this would go away... and
                  > > > to
                  > > > > an extent it did. However, I was drawn back into
                  > > > > meditating and again took to it with ease.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > That brings me to why I am here... as again
                  > > > with
                  > > > > meditating I have the mystic experience. I again
                  > > > was
                  > > > > clairvoyant... which was fine until recently.
                  > > > > Recently , again, what I have seen has disturbed
                  > > > me.
                  > > > > I am talking about things on a global scale as
                  > > > well...
                  > > >
                  > > === message truncated ===
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > __________________________________________________
                  > > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                  > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                  > >
                  >
                • Benjamin Buehne
                  Thank you very much Jeff and Aideen- I understand what you are saying and will take the advice to heart. What you are saying is true Jeff... it has been a
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jul 16 2:24 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Thank you very much Jeff and Aideen-

                    I understand what you are saying and will take
                    the advice to heart. What you are saying is true
                    Jeff... it has been a distraction and distressing...
                    thus I haven't maintained very well. The truth is...
                    if what I "remembered" is true or not really doesn't
                    matter... as there is nothing I could do about it
                    anyways. I must simply take my place.

                    With Gratitude,
                    Ben

                    --- Jeff Belyea <jeff@...> wrote:

                    > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                    > "aideenmck"
                    > <aideenmck@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi, Ben
                    > >
                    > > I think what Jeff means is that it's not the
                    > experience of
                    > > clairvoyance that's the potential trap, but rather
                    > one's
                    > attachment
                    > > to it.
                    > > Is that right, Jeff?
                    > >
                    > > Aideen
                    >
                    > Yes, that and the fact that the "ego"
                    > can come with "imaginings" disguised
                    > as clairvoyance. And this can lead
                    > back to the place where we feel we
                    > have lost our enlightened perspective
                    > - back to "trying to figure out"...
                    > anything. Clarity has no questions.
                    > And, as you know, no attachments.
                    >
                    > Notice that Ben is still identifying
                    > himself as a seeker of enlightenment,
                    > rather than a "finder" who can simply
                    > attune to it.
                    >
                    > Jerry Wennstrom, in his book, "The
                    > Inspired Heart" wrote "The singular
                    > requirement of grace is to remain
                    > fearlessly attuned to the heart."
                    >
                    > Ramana Maharshi said, "The aspirant
                    > meditates to attain. The awakened
                    > meditate to maintain."
                    >
                    > In the Tibetan Book of The Dead,
                    > there is an admonition not to "follow
                    > the elephant tracks, once you have
                    > found the elephant.".
                    >
                    > So, my advice to Ben was to stay
                    > attuned to the heart - his beautiful
                    > experience that released him from
                    > anger and anxiey, and not enter
                    > a "wrestling match" with the issue
                    > of clairvoyance. Let it happen, but
                    > abandon it when it presents fear
                    > or doubt.
                    >
                    > Thanks.
                    >
                    > Jeff
                    >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                    > Benjamin Buehne
                    > > <benbuehne@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks Jeff-
                    > > >
                    > > > I think I understand what you are saying but I
                    > would
                    > > > like to clarify. Basicly, there is a part of
                    > me, in
                    > > > my nature, that retains this anger and anxiety.
                    > While
                    > > > I may have been clairvoyant before... what I am
                    > seeing
                    > > > now may not, in fact, be this clairvoyance but
                    > this
                    > > > anger and anxiety sneeking into my conciousness.
                    >
                    > > > Possibly to frighten me out of continuing to
                    > seek
                    > > > enlightenment. Is this correct?
                    > > >
                    > > > Also, how can such a thing "rob us from ground
                    > > > gained"? What do you need to do in order to
                    > avoid
                    > > > such a thing?
                    > > >
                    > > > I realize I am inexperienced so I appreciate
                    > your help
                    > > > (everyone in the group for that matter). This
                    > state
                    > > > is actually not something I initially desired...
                    > I was
                    > > > simply trying to relax and it happened
                    > (interestingly
                    > > > enough it was the first time I had meditated
                    > outside).
                    > > > I want to let you know that I am humble and
                    > realize
                    > > > how "green" I am... I am simply a person who has
                    > taken
                    > > > to the art with significantly more ease than
                    > others.
                    > > > Your help is greatly appreciated.
                    > > >
                    > > > Thank you for your response,
                    > > > Ben
                    > > > P.S. Do you know of anyone in the chicagoland
                    > area
                    > > > that is experienced enough to help me with such
                    > > > matters?
                    > > >
                    > > > --- Jeff Belyea <jeff@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > > Hi Ben -
                    > > > >
                    > > > > While the mystic experience is rare,
                    > > > > this group most probably has several,
                    > > > > if not quite a few, who can relate
                    > > > > to your story from similar direct
                    > > > > experience.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The shift to what you wrote of as,
                    > > > > "consciousness of everything" and the
                    > > > > clarity, compassion and comfort
                    > > > > (peace of mind)is a common result.
                    > > > > The clairvoyant part, and the
                    > > > > occasions of deja vu, are not as
                    > > > > common, but many people report them,
                    > > > > as well.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > My experience, personally, and in
                    > > > > teaching meditation for the past 30
                    > > > > years has been that the former level
                    > > > > of conscious of which you wrote -
                    > > > > that anxious, needy "former self"
                    > > > > - often referred to as "ego",
                    > > > > is very sneaky, and does not
                    > > > > give up its attempt to regain the
                    > > > > dominant position in our consciousness.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > "It" can impose upon our imagination
                    > > > > in the guise of clairvoyance. In
                    > > > > this way, it will play upon our
                    > > > > "spiritual pride" and can trap us
                    > > > > in a return to "vain imaginings"
                    > > > > that are not a product of our
                    > > > > enlightenment. This is quicksand,
                    > > > > and can rob us of the ground gained,
                    > > > > in great part. It takes keen
                    > > > > discernment and abject honesty
                    > > > > with ourselves to be able to spot
                    > > > > this distinction.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > This is when a mature teacher or
                    > > > > "guru" can help guide an innocently
                    > > > > deluded "seeker" who has egoistically
                    > > > > talked themselves into claiming
                    > > > > enlightenment or even "Guru" status,
                    > > > > (Jody and Bruce - members here, can
                    > > > > speak knowledgeably, and sometimes
                    > > > > a bit jadedly, about this) and newbie
                    > > > > enlightened ones.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Even when the enlightenment
                    > > > > experience seems, and is "known"
                    > > > > as, absolutely complete, there is
                    > > > > still a maintenance that is
                    > > > > required to continue to reap
                    > > > > the harvest of this new level
                    > > > > of consciousness. It is easy to
                    > > > > ignore this, because the new
                    > > > > enlightenment is so pure and
                    > > > > powerful that it feel invulnerable.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > In great part, it is, but while
                    > > > > we are still living in the material
                    > > > > world (thanks, Madonna) we are
                    > > > > subject to a "warring" faction -
                    > > > > in our own internal lives - as we see
                    > > > > manifested externally in the worldly
                    > > > > activity of war in the name of God.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > A red flag for spotting this activity is
                    > > > > is when we feel a negative anticipation,
                    > > > > or stuggle. The ego feeds on struggle
                    > > > > and will step up the internal dialogue.
                    > > > > And this is the antithesis of meditation
                    > > > > as a waking consciousness. If we feed
                    > > > > the struggle, we are in effect giving
                    > > > > up our enlightened consciousness, which
                    > > > > is above circumstance, and returning
                    > > > > to a rationally-dominant concern.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The logical or rational argument
                    > > > > convincingly says we must be concerned
                    > > > > and do our part. But our part is to
                    > > > > maintain the enlightened perspective
                    > > > > and bring peace by our positive
                    > > > > energy and en-"light"ened view.
                    > > > > This alone will contribute to the
                    > > > > change of consciousness, and shift
                    >
                    === message truncated ===


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