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Prayer Ineffective

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  • medit8ionsociety
    From the New York Times: Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer By BENEDICT CAREY Published: March 31, 2006 Prayers offered by strangers had
    Message 1 of 29 , Mar 31, 2006
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      From the New York Times:
      Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer
      By BENEDICT CAREY
      Published: March 31, 2006
      Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery
      of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and
      long-awaited study has found.
      And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a
      higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal
      heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the
      prayers created, the researchers suggested.
      Because it is the most scientifically rigorous investigation
      of whether prayer can heal illness, the study, begun almost
      a decade ago and involving more than 1,800 patients, has for
      years been the subject of speculation.
      The question has been a contentious one among researchers.
      Proponents have argued that prayer is perhaps the most deeply
      human response to disease, and that it may relieve suffering
      by some mechanism that is not yet understood. Skeptics have
      contended that studying prayer is a waste of money and that
      it presupposes supernatural intervention, putting it by
      definition beyond the reach of science.
      At least 10 studies of the effects of prayer have been carried
      out in the last six years, with mixed results. The new study
      was intended to overcome flaws in the earlier investigations.
      The report was scheduled to appear in The American Heart
      Journal next week, but the journal's publisher released it
      online yesterday.
      In a hurriedly convened news conference, the study's authors,
      led by Dr. Herbert Benson, a cardiologist and director of the
      Mind/Body Medical Institute near Boston, said that the findings
      were not the last word on the effects of so-called intercessory
      prayer. But the results, they said, raised questions about how
      and whether patients should be told that prayers were being
      offered for them.
      "One conclusion from this is that the role of awareness of
      prayer should be studied further," said Dr. Charles Bethea,
      a cardiologist at Integris Baptist Medical Center in Oklahoma
      City and a co-author of the study.
      Other experts said the study underscored the question of
      whether prayer was an appropriate subject for scientific study.
      "The problem with studying religion scientifically is that you
      do violence to the phenomenon by reducing it to basic elements
      that can be quantified, and that makes for bad science and bad
      religion," said Dr. Richard Sloan, a professor of behavioral medicine
      at Columbia and author of a forthcoming book, "Blind Faith: The
      Unholy Alliance of Religion and Medicine."
      The study cost $2.4 million, and most of the money came from
      the John Templeton Foundation, which supports research into
      spirituality. The government has spent more than $2.3 million
      on prayer research since 2000.
      Dean Marek, a chaplain at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn.,
      and a co-author of the report, said the study said nothing
      about the power of personal prayer or about prayers for family
      members and friends.
      Working in a large medical center like Mayo, Mr. Marek said,
      "You hear tons of stories about the power of prayer, and I
      don't doubt them."
      In the study, the researchers monitored 1,802 patients at
      six hospitals who received coronary bypass surgery, in which
      doctors reroute circulation around a clogged vein or artery.
      The patients were broken into three groups. Two were prayed
      for; the third was not. Half the patients who received the
      prayers were told that they were being prayed for; half were
      told that they might or might not receive prayers.
      The researchers asked the members of three congregations
      St. Paul's Monastery in St. Paul; the Community of Teresian
      Carmelites in Worcester, Mass.; and Silent Unity, a Missouri
      prayer ministry near Kansas City * to deliver the prayers,
      using the patients' first names and the first initials of
      their last names.
      The congregations were told that they could pray in their own
      ways, but they were instructed to include the phrase, "for a
      successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications."
      Analyzing complications in the 30 days after the operations,
      the researchers found no differences between those patients
      who were prayed for and those who were not.
      In another of the study's findings, a significantly higher
      number of the patients who knew that they were being prayed
      for * 59 percent * suffered complications, compared with 51
      percent of those who were uncertain. The authors left open
      the possibility that this was a chance finding. But they said
      that being aware of the strangers' prayers also may have
      caused some of the patients a kind of performance anxiety.
      "It may have made them uncertain, wondering am I so sick they
      had to call in their prayer team?" Dr. Bethea said.
      The study also found that more patients in the uninformed
      prayer group * 18 percent * suffered major complications, like
      heart attack or stroke, compared with 13 percent in the group
      that did not receive prayers. In their report, the researchers
      suggested that this finding might also be a result of chance.
      One reason the study was so widely anticipated was that it was
      led by Dr. Benson, who in his work has emphasized the soothing
      power of personal prayer and meditation.
      At least one earlier study found lower complication rates in
      patients who received intercessory prayers; others found no
      difference. A 1997 study at the University of New Mexico,
      involving 40 alcoholics in rehabilitation, found that the men
      and women who knew they were being prayed for actually fared
      worse.
      The new study was rigorously designed to avoid problems like
      the ones that came up in the earlier studies. But experts said
      the study could not overcome perhaps the largest obstacle to
      prayer study: the unknown amount of prayer each person received
      from friends, families, and congregations around the world who
      pray daily for the sick and dying.
      Bob Barth, the spiritual director of Silent Unity, the Missouri
      prayer ministry, said the findings would not affect the ministry's
      mission.
      "A person of faith would say that this study is interesting,
      " Mr. Barth said, "but we've been praying a long time and we've
      seen prayer work, we know it works, and the research on prayer
      and spirituality is just getting started."
      ----------------------------------------------------------
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      always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are
      making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding
      of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy,
      scientific, spiritual, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this
      constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided
      for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title
      17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed
      without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in
      receiving the included information for research and educational
      purposes. For more information go to:
      http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use
      copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go
      beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner
    • jogeshwarmahanta
      How can a cause will not have effect? This is reversal of basic foundation of science. The finding suffers from Rosenthal effect on the investigators. regards,
      Message 2 of 29 , Apr 2 10:41 PM
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        How can a cause will not have effect? This is reversal of basic
        foundation of science.

        The finding suffers from Rosenthal effect on the investigators.

        regards,
        Jogeshwar








        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
        <no_reply@...> wrote:
        >
        > From the New York Times:
        > Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer
        > By BENEDICT CAREY
        > Published: March 31, 2006
        > Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery
        > of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and
        > long-awaited study has found.
        > And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a
        > higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal
        > heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the
        > prayers created, the researchers suggested.
        > Because it is the most scientifically rigorous investigation
        > of whether prayer can heal illness, the study, begun almost
        > a decade ago and involving more than 1,800 patients, has for
        > years been the subject of speculation.
        > The question has been a contentious one among researchers.
        > Proponents have argued that prayer is perhaps the most deeply
        > human response to disease, and that it may relieve suffering
        > by some mechanism that is not yet understood. Skeptics have
        > contended that studying prayer is a waste of money and that
        > it presupposes supernatural intervention, putting it by
        > definition beyond the reach of science.
        > At least 10 studies of the effects of prayer have been carried
        > out in the last six years, with mixed results. The new study
        > was intended to overcome flaws in the earlier investigations.
        > The report was scheduled to appear in The American Heart
        > Journal next week, but the journal's publisher released it
        > online yesterday.
        > In a hurriedly convened news conference, the study's authors,
        > led by Dr. Herbert Benson, a cardiologist and director of the
        > Mind/Body Medical Institute near Boston, said that the findings
        > were not the last word on the effects of so-called intercessory
        > prayer. But the results, they said, raised questions about how
        > and whether patients should be told that prayers were being
        > offered for them.
        > "One conclusion from this is that the role of awareness of
        > prayer should be studied further," said Dr. Charles Bethea,
        > a cardiologist at Integris Baptist Medical Center in Oklahoma
        > City and a co-author of the study.
        > Other experts said the study underscored the question of
        > whether prayer was an appropriate subject for scientific study.
        > "The problem with studying religion scientifically is that you
        > do violence to the phenomenon by reducing it to basic elements
        > that can be quantified, and that makes for bad science and bad
        > religion," said Dr. Richard Sloan, a professor of behavioral
        medicine
        > at Columbia and author of a forthcoming book, "Blind Faith: The
        > Unholy Alliance of Religion and Medicine."
        > The study cost $2.4 million, and most of the money came from
        > the John Templeton Foundation, which supports research into
        > spirituality. The government has spent more than $2.3 million
        > on prayer research since 2000.
        > Dean Marek, a chaplain at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn.,
        > and a co-author of the report, said the study said nothing
        > about the power of personal prayer or about prayers for family
        > members and friends.
        > Working in a large medical center like Mayo, Mr. Marek said,
        > "You hear tons of stories about the power of prayer, and I
        > don't doubt them."
        > In the study, the researchers monitored 1,802 patients at
        > six hospitals who received coronary bypass surgery, in which
        > doctors reroute circulation around a clogged vein or artery.
        > The patients were broken into three groups. Two were prayed
        > for; the third was not. Half the patients who received the
        > prayers were told that they were being prayed for; half were
        > told that they might or might not receive prayers.
        > The researchers asked the members of three congregations
        > St. Paul's Monastery in St. Paul; the Community of Teresian
        > Carmelites in Worcester, Mass.; and Silent Unity, a Missouri
        > prayer ministry near Kansas City * to deliver the prayers,
        > using the patients' first names and the first initials of
        > their last names.
        > The congregations were told that they could pray in their own
        > ways, but they were instructed to include the phrase, "for a
        > successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no
        complications."
        > Analyzing complications in the 30 days after the operations,
        > the researchers found no differences between those patients
        > who were prayed for and those who were not.
        > In another of the study's findings, a significantly higher
        > number of the patients who knew that they were being prayed
        > for * 59 percent * suffered complications, compared with 51
        > percent of those who were uncertain. The authors left open
        > the possibility that this was a chance finding. But they said
        > that being aware of the strangers' prayers also may have
        > caused some of the patients a kind of performance anxiety.
        > "It may have made them uncertain, wondering am I so sick they
        > had to call in their prayer team?" Dr. Bethea said.
        > The study also found that more patients in the uninformed
        > prayer group * 18 percent * suffered major complications, like
        > heart attack or stroke, compared with 13 percent in the group
        > that did not receive prayers. In their report, the researchers
        > suggested that this finding might also be a result of chance.
        > One reason the study was so widely anticipated was that it was
        > led by Dr. Benson, who in his work has emphasized the soothing
        > power of personal prayer and meditation.
        > At least one earlier study found lower complication rates in
        > patients who received intercessory prayers; others found no
        > difference. A 1997 study at the University of New Mexico,
        > involving 40 alcoholics in rehabilitation, found that the men
        > and women who knew they were being prayed for actually fared
        > worse.
        > The new study was rigorously designed to avoid problems like
        > the ones that came up in the earlier studies. But experts said
        > the study could not overcome perhaps the largest obstacle to
        > prayer study: the unknown amount of prayer each person received
        > from friends, families, and congregations around the world who
        > pray daily for the sick and dying.
        > Bob Barth, the spiritual director of Silent Unity, the Missouri
        > prayer ministry, said the findings would not affect the ministry's
        > mission.
        > "A person of faith would say that this study is interesting,
        > " Mr. Barth said, "but we've been praying a long time and we've
        > seen prayer work, we know it works, and the research on prayer
        > and spirituality is just getting started."
        > ----------------------------------------------------------
        > FAIR USE NOTICE
        > This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
        > always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are
        > making such material available in our efforts to advance
        understanding
        > of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy,
        > scientific, spiritual, and social justice issues, etc. We believe
        this
        > constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as
        provided
        > for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with
        Title
        > 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed
        > without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in
        > receiving the included information for research and educational
        > purposes. For more information go to:
        > http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use
        > copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that
        go
        > beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright
        owner
        >
      • Nirodha (Bill Gray)
        Friends, This study would have probably found prayer more effective if the patients had actually prayed for themselves instead of having others do it for them.
        Message 3 of 29 , Apr 3 8:25 AM
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          Friends,

          This study would have probably found prayer more effective if the
          patients had actually prayed for themselves instead of having others
          do it for them.

          People have long been aware of the healing effects of contemplation -
          - this includes meditation and prayer in all of it's wonderful forms.
          But, this only seems to work when one is an active participant in the
          contemplation and has been trained to do it skillfully.

          I'm not surprised the effects were gauged as minimal or even damaging
          for those that were being prayed for. I don't know of any spiritual
          path that promises a reward for the inactive -- I understand that
          these people were sick and asked to do this for the study, so I'm not
          without compassion for them.

          To paraphrase the Buddha: One has to do the work themselves, the
          Buddha's only show the way.

          Happiness and Ease to you all,
          Nirodha (Bill Gray)
        • jogeshwarmahanta
          yes, a practice to be effective one must have comprehension, memory, intuition, tenacity and non-complacency. Mere mechanical repetition will hardly work.
          Message 4 of 29 , Apr 3 11:20 AM
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            yes, a practice to be effective one must have comprehension, memory,
            intuition, tenacity and non-complacency. Mere mechanical repetition
            will hardly work.

            regards,
            jogeshwar






            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nirodha (Bill
            Gray)" <nirodhasati@...> wrote:
            >
            > Friends,
            >
            > This study would have probably found prayer more effective if the
            > patients had actually prayed for themselves instead of having
            others
            > do it for them.
            >
            > People have long been aware of the healing effects of
            contemplation -
            > - this includes meditation and prayer in all of it's wonderful
            forms.
            > But, this only seems to work when one is an active participant in
            the
            > contemplation and has been trained to do it skillfully.
            >
            > I'm not surprised the effects were gauged as minimal or even
            damaging
            > for those that were being prayed for. I don't know of any
            spiritual
            > path that promises a reward for the inactive -- I understand that
            > these people were sick and asked to do this for the study, so I'm
            not
            > without compassion for them.
            >
            > To paraphrase the Buddha: One has to do the work themselves, the
            > Buddha's only show the way.
            >
            > Happiness and Ease to you all,
            > Nirodha (Bill Gray)
            >
          • prakki surya
            A prostitute sacrifices sweet words and sweet feelings of mind for getting her minimum requirement. This is justified. But today the people who are having
            Message 5 of 29 , Apr 9 11:18 AM
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              A prostitute sacrifices sweet words and sweet feelings of mind for getting her minimum requirement. This is justified. But today the people who are having already the minimum are trying to please the Lord through sweet words and sweet feelings of mind (devotion) to get extra from the Lord. These devotees are called as divine prostitutes who can never be excused by the Lord. One can please a person who is either ignorant or a person having less knowledge in false way. But no one can please the Lord who has the full knowledge (Sarvajna). If any one tries to please the Lord by the sacrifice of words and mind only, such a person is blind. These people are made blind by the fraud preachers who exploit their ignorance and natural ambition. The people who follow such fraud preachers loose time here and those fraud preachers will be punished there. These fraud teachers encourage these innocent people and make them to do Karma Phala Tyaga also. These innocent people are advised to spend hundred rupees and get one lakh rupees from God.
               
              A part of these hundred rupees is wasted in purchasing some unnecessary materials and these fraud preachers steal another part. Such a sacrifice of the fruit of the work cannot be the Karma Phala Tyaga. It is just like a patient going to a fraud doctor and loosing money and time without any reduction in his illness. Sometimes the illness may increase. In such worships the Lord is giving the fruits of your own good works which are present in the future life cycle arrangements. The fruit of good work from your future birth is drawn to this birth as a pre-matured deposit. You are thinking that you have attained the fruit of the good work, which you have not done just by spending hundred rupees. You are getting rid of the present trouble because the Lord is pushing this trouble to the future birth with added interest. By this your future life cycles become miserable with full of troubles only from birth to death. Are you not seeing such people in the world? They blame the Lord for such life cycle but they do not know that they pressed the Lord for this in their previous births. You just see this wonderful world and imagine the intelligence of the Lord. No body including your fraud teacher can fool the God. Therefore the present tradition of blind preachers and blind followers is leading finally to the ever-lasting fire only. Therefore it is better to know the true path which is established by Vedas and Bhagavat Gita. It is better to put at least one step in the true path because the distance from the goal is reduced at least by one step. What is the use of putting hundred steps in false path by which you have moved away from the goal by hundred steps? The true path is only Hanuman and Gopikas i.e., Karma Sanyasa and Karma Phala Tyaga and both put together called as Karma Yoga as emphasized every where in Gita.

              The value of the words and mind are two paise only. The value of practical action is hundred paise. If you do the sacrifice of these three (words, mind and action) without aspiring anything in return you will get the fruit from the God according to the corresponding values. If you praise the Lord without aspiring anything, the Lord will praise you by His sweet voice. If you meditate upon the Lord without aspiring anything the Lord will love you with His sweet heart. If you serve the Lord practically without aspiring anything the Lord also gives the fruit in the same practical way. Hanuman simply participated in the work of the Lord. He was given the highest post, which is the fruit that is practically real. Gita says that He will approach you in the same way as you approach Him (1). Gopikas sacrificed the fruit of their work and they were given the highest Goloka. In these examples sacrifice is without aspiring anything in return from the Lord. Such sacrifice is called ‘Nishkama Karma Yoga’. But when you do the same sacrifice aspiring the fruit in return, you will get the results accordingly here also. But here the results are the fruits of your own works, which are arranged in the future cycles.
               
              at the lotus feet of shri datta swami
              surya
              www.universal-spirituality.org

              jogeshwarmahanta <jogeshwarmahanta@...> wrote:
              How can a cause will not have effect? This is reversal of basic foundation of science.The finding suffers from Rosenthal effect on the investigators.
              regards,
              Jogeshwar


              Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.

            • jogeshwarmahanta
              Cause and effect. What are the benefits of Shirsasana? My reply is-honestly I do not know. I like to do it. So I do. Please do and see what happens. What are
              Message 6 of 29 , Apr 9 11:23 PM
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                Cause and effect.

                What are the benefits of Shirsasana? My reply is-honestly I do not
                know. I like to do it. So I do. Please do and see what happens.

                What are the benefits of Tandva Nritya? My answer is more or less
                the same.

                Can you heal me? certainly not. It is you who can heal yourself,if
                at all.

                What happens if a tempo driver makes roll call daily and even a bank
                manager, industrialist or a professor says "Yes Sir"?

                I do not think, you are familiar with such a cause and effect. To
                be familiar with, please see the reality in our ZERO PATHOLOGY GANGA.

                regards,
                Jogeshwar





                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, prakki surya
                <dattapr2000@...> wrote:
                >
                > A prostitute sacrifices sweet words and sweet feelings of mind for
                getting her minimum requirement. This is justified. But today the
                people who are having already the minimum are trying to please the
                Lord through sweet words and sweet feelings of mind (devotion) to
                get extra from the Lord. These devotees are called as divine
                prostitutes who can never be excused by the Lord. One can please a
                person who is either ignorant or a person having less knowledge in
                false way. But no one can please the Lord who has the full knowledge
                (Sarvajna). If any one tries to please the Lord by the sacrifice of
                words and mind only, such a person is blind. These people are made
                blind by the fraud preachers who exploit their ignorance and natural
                ambition. The people who follow such fraud preachers loose time here
                and those fraud preachers will be punished there. These fraud
                teachers encourage these innocent people and make them to do Karma
                Phala Tyaga also. These innocent people are advised to
                > spend hundred rupees and get one lakh rupees from God.
                >
                > A part of these hundred rupees is wasted in purchasing some
                unnecessary materials and these fraud preachers steal another part.
                Such a sacrifice of the fruit of the work cannot be the Karma Phala
                Tyaga. It is just like a patient going to a fraud doctor and loosing
                money and time without any reduction in his illness. Sometimes the
                illness may increase. In such worships the Lord is giving the fruits
                of your own good works which are present in the future life cycle
                arrangements. The fruit of good work from your future birth is drawn
                to this birth as a pre-matured deposit. You are thinking that you
                have attained the fruit of the good work, which you have not done
                just by spending hundred rupees. You are getting rid of the present
                trouble because the Lord is pushing this trouble to the future birth
                with added interest. By this your future life cycles become
                miserable with full of troubles only from birth to death. Are you
                not seeing such people in the world? They blame the
                > Lord for such life cycle but they do not know that they pressed
                the Lord for this in their previous births. You just see this
                wonderful world and imagine the intelligence of the Lord. No body
                including your fraud teacher can fool the God. Therefore the present
                tradition of blind preachers and blind followers is leading finally
                to the ever-lasting fire only. Therefore it is better to know the
                true path which is established by Vedas and Bhagavat Gita. It is
                better to put at least one step in the true path because the
                distance from the goal is reduced at least by one step. What is the
                use of putting hundred steps in false path by which you have moved
                away from the goal by hundred steps? The true path is only Hanuman
                and Gopikas i.e., Karma Sanyasa and Karma Phala Tyaga and both put
                together called as Karma Yoga as emphasized every where in Gita.
                >
                > The value of the words and mind are two paise only. The value of
                practical action is hundred paise. If you do the sacrifice of these
                three (words, mind and action) without aspiring anything in return
                you will get the fruit from the God according to the corresponding
                values. If you praise the Lord without aspiring anything, the Lord
                will praise you by His sweet voice. If you meditate upon the Lord
                without aspiring anything the Lord will love you with His sweet
                heart. If you serve the Lord practically without aspiring anything
                the Lord also gives the fruit in the same practical way. Hanuman
                simply participated in the work of the Lord. He was given the
                highest post, which is the fruit that is practically real. Gita says
                that He will approach you in the same way as you approach Him (1).
                Gopikas sacrificed the fruit of their work and they were given the
                highest Goloka. In these examples sacrifice is without aspiring
                anything in return from the Lord. Such sacrifice is called
                > `Nishkama Karma Yoga'. But when you do the same sacrifice
                aspiring the fruit in return, you will get the results accordingly
                here also. But here the results are the fruits of your own works,
                which are arranged in the future cycles.
                >
                > at the lotus feet of shri datta swami
                > surya
                > www.universal-spirituality.org
                >
                > jogeshwarmahanta <jogeshwarmahanta@...> wrote:
                > How can a cause will not have effect? This is reversal of basic
                foundation of science.The finding suffers from Rosenthal effect on
                the investigators.
                > regards,
                > Jogeshwar
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for
                just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
                >
              • prakki surya
                Hanuman, a topmost devotee identified Lord Rama and served Him and always said ‘I am servant to Lord Rama’. He even performed many miracles also and still
                Message 7 of 29 , Apr 10 11:28 AM
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                  Hanuman, a topmost devotee identified Lord Rama and served Him and always said ‘I am servant to Lord Rama’. He even performed many miracles also and still he has given credit of them to Rama only. (Dasoham kosalendrasya.....) For such worship, Lord has given future creator post to Hanuman. St. Peter, St. John, St. Luke... identified Lord Jesus by His divine knowledge and participated in the propagation of divine knowledge.
                   
                  Gopikas identified and worshipped Lord Krishna, the then human incarnation only and got the highest fruit of top most Goloka. Swami Vivekananda participated in the mission of propagation of divine knowledge on the order of the then human incarnation Rama Krishna Paramahamsa.
                   
                  Likewise the disciples of Adi Sankara worshipped Him as lord and latter on participated in the propagation of divine knowledge. Meerabai also propagated Krishna Bhakti by composing hymns and propagated them.
                   
                   
                  at the lotus feet of shri datta swami
                  surya
                  www.universal-spirituality.org

                  jogeshwarmahanta <jogeshwarmahanta@...> wrote:
                  What are the benefits of Shirsasana? My reply is-honestly I do not know. I like to do it. So I do. Please do and see what happens.
                  Can you heal me? certainly not. It is you who can heal yourself,if at all.
                  What happens if a tempo driver makes roll call daily and even a bank manager, industrialist or a professor says "Yes Sir"?
                  I do not think, you are familiar with such a cause and effect. To be familiar with, please see the reality in our ZERO PATHOLOGY GANGA.

                  regards,
                  Jogeshwar


                  Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.

                • jodyrrr
                  ... wrote: [snip] ... Horrendously self-serving caterwauling for money and someone to boss around noted.
                  Message 8 of 29 , Apr 10 3:11 PM
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                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, prakki surya
                    <dattapr2000@...> wrote:

                    [snip]

                    > In all these the disciples identified the Lord in the human
                    > form during their time and participated in His mission as
                    > servants. So, first one should identify the Satguru and then
                    > learn divine knowledge from Him. These disciples worshipped
                    > their Satguru. At His order, they participated in the propagation
                    > of divine knowledge as Service to Lord. Service only proves our
                    > real devotion, which consists of Karma phala tyaga (sacrifice of
                    > money) & karma sanyasa (physically participating in His mission).

                    Horrendously self-serving caterwauling for money and
                    someone to boss around noted.
                  • jogeshwarmahanta
                    1.Sat guru can be only he/she who neither tacitly nor by expression claims so. 2. He/she who has regulated his/her metabolism favourably- neither bald, nor
                    Message 9 of 29 , Apr 11 12:16 AM
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                      1.Sat guru can be only he/she who neither tacitly nor by expression
                      claims so.

                      2. He/she who has regulated his/her metabolism favourably- neither
                      bald, nor wears glass, nor has wrinkles on his/her skin etc etc.

                      regards,
                      Jogeshwar





                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                      <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, prakki surya
                      > <dattapr2000@> wrote:
                      >
                      > [snip]
                      >
                      > > In all these the disciples identified the Lord in the human
                      > > form during their time and participated in His mission as
                      > > servants. So, first one should identify the Satguru and then
                      > > learn divine knowledge from Him. These disciples worshipped
                      > > their Satguru. At His order, they participated in the
                      propagation
                      > > of divine knowledge as Service to Lord. Service only proves our
                      > > real devotion, which consists of Karma phala tyaga (sacrifice of
                      > > money) & karma sanyasa (physically participating in His mission).
                      >
                      > Horrendously self-serving caterwauling for money and
                      > someone to boss around noted.
                      >
                    • prakki surya
                      If a sinner realizes the sin and repents, the punishment is reduced. After repentance if you do not repeat the sins, the punishment is cancelled. If the sinner
                      Message 10 of 29 , Apr 11 2:49 AM
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                        The Lord is the father of all the souls. Your love on another human being is only brotherly love. The love of the father is far greater than the brotherly love. You are criticizing your father for punishing your brother! The father tries His best to transform His son. On the first day of the war Ravana was defeated by Rama. Rama could have killed him on the very first day. But Rama asked Ravana to go back and think that night. The Lord punishes anyone as last resort. Even then, the Lord does not have anger or hatred. The punishment is only the last method attempted for transformation. There also the aim is only transformation. But when you punish your enemy such aim does not exist. Therefore the punishment by Lord is also reflecting His divine love and kindness on the soul. Due to such sacred aim the Lord is authorized to punish the soul. He is just like a teacher who punishes the student for his misbehavior. The teacher does not get any sin in such punishment. The reason again is that the intention decides the action.
                         
                        at the lotus feet of shri datta swami
                        surya
                        www.universal-spirituality.org

                        jogeshwarmahanta <jogeshwarmahanta@...> wrote:
                        1.Sat guru can be only he/she who neither tacitly nor by expression claims so.
                        2. He/she who has regulated his/her metabolism favourably- neither bald, nor wears glass, nor has wrinkles on his/her skin etc etc.
                        regards,
                        Jogeshwar
                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
                        > Horrendously self-serving caterwauling for money and
                        > someone to boss around noted.


                        Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

                      • jodyrrr
                        ... That is ridiculous. Using the evidence of siddhis to determine the fitness of a guru is like expecting a baby to pop out of the womb in full speech because
                        Message 11 of 29 , Apr 11 8:39 AM
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                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jogeshwarmahanta"
                          <jogeshwarmahanta@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > 1.Sat guru can be only he/she who neither tacitly nor by expression
                          > claims so.
                          >
                          > 2. He/she who has regulated his/her metabolism favourably- neither
                          > bald, nor wears glass, nor has wrinkles on his/her skin etc etc.

                          That is ridiculous.

                          Using the evidence of siddhis to determine the fitness of
                          a guru is like expecting a baby to pop out of the womb in
                          full speech because his mother was an English professor.

                          > regards,
                          > Jogeshwar
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                          > <jodyrrr@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, prakki surya
                          > > <dattapr2000@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > [snip]
                          > >
                          > > > In all these the disciples identified the Lord in the human
                          > > > form during their time and participated in His mission as
                          > > > servants. So, first one should identify the Satguru and then
                          > > > learn divine knowledge from Him. These disciples worshipped
                          > > > their Satguru. At His order, they participated in the
                          > propagation
                          > > > of divine knowledge as Service to Lord. Service only proves our
                          > > > real devotion, which consists of Karma phala tyaga (sacrifice of
                          > > > money) & karma sanyasa (physically participating in His mission).
                          > >
                          > > Horrendously self-serving caterwauling for money and
                          > > someone to boss around noted.
                          > >
                          >
                        • jodyrrr
                          ... wrote: [snip] ... Bring it on, you pathetic wannabe godman.
                          Message 12 of 29 , Apr 11 8:40 AM
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                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, prakki surya
                            <dattapr2000@...> wrote:

                            [snip]

                            > Due to such sacred aim the Lord is authorized to punish the soul.

                            Bring it on, you pathetic wannabe godman.
                          • Vernellia.Randall@notes.udayton.edu
                            I am new to the list. I joined it because I am beginning a spiritual journey. I do anti-racism work and I work in a hostile environment. I do not want to be on
                            Message 13 of 29 , Apr 11 1:39 PM
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                              I am new to the list. I joined it because I am beginning a spiritual journey. I do anti-racism work and I work in a hostile environment. I do not want to be on a list where individuals are dealing with each other in a hostile manner.  For Example:
                               
                                          "Due to such sacred aim the Lord is authorized to punish the soul.
                                            Bring it on, you pathetic wannabe godman."
                               
                              I have enough of that in my daily life. I am not asking anyone to change or do anything different - but I want to know so I can make a choice about whether this is the right list for me.
                               
                              Vernellia
                               
                              -----meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com wrote: -----

                              To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                              From: "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr@...>
                              Sent by: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: 04/11/2006 11:40AM
                              Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Prayer Ineffective - - -

                              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, prakki surya
                              <dattapr2000@...> wrote:

                              [snip]

                              > Due to such sacred aim the Lord is authorized to punish the soul.

                              Bring it on, you pathetic wannabe godman.





                            • suman sk
                              hey admin... this has been too much. why dont u ban jodyr from this group.. SK Vernellia.Randall@notes.udayton.edu wrote: I am new to the list. I joined it
                              Message 14 of 29 , Apr 11 2:01 PM
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                                hey admin...
                                this has been too much. why dont u ban jodyr from this group..
                                 
                                SK

                                Vernellia.Randall@... wrote:

                                I am new to the list. I joined it because I am beginning a spiritual journey. I do anti-racism work and I work in a hostile environment. I do not want to be on a list where individuals are dealing with each other in a hostile manner.  For Example:
                                 
                                            "Due to such sacred aim the Lord is authorized to punish the soul.
                                              Bring it on, you pathetic wannabe godman."
                                 
                                I have enough of that in my daily life. I am not asking anyone to change or do anything different - but I want to know so I can make a choice about whether this is the right list for me.
                                 
                                Vernellia
                                 
                                -----meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com wrote: -----

                                To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                                From: "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr@...>
                                Sent by: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: 04/11/2006 11:40AM
                                Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Prayer Ineffective - - -

                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, prakki surya
                                <dattapr2000@...> wrote:

                                [snip]

                                > Due to such sacred aim the Lord is authorized to punish the soul.

                                Bring it on, you pathetic wannabe godman.







                                New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.

                              • Bruce Morgen
                                Actually, it was the aggressive guru-touting post that started this ball rolling imo. I think if folks can refrain from such promotional activities, we can
                                Message 15 of 29 , Apr 11 2:12 PM
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                                  Actually, it was the aggressive
                                  guru-touting post that started
                                  this ball rolling imo. I think
                                  if folks can refrain from such
                                  promotional activities, we can
                                  also avoid distasteful (but
                                  understandable) reactions to
                                  what amounts to copy and paste
                                  list spamming.

                                  suman sk wrote:

                                  > hey admin...
                                  > this has been too much. why dont u ban jodyr from this group..
                                  >
                                  > SK
                                  >
                                  > */Vernellia.Randall@.../* wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I am new to the list. I joined it because I am beginning a
                                  > spiritual journey. I do anti-racism work and I work in a hostile
                                  > environment. I do not want to be on a list where individuals are
                                  > dealing with each other in a hostile manner. For Example:
                                  >
                                  > "Due to such sacred aim the Lord is authorized to
                                  > punish the soul.
                                  > Bring it on, you pathetic wannabe godman."
                                  >
                                  > I have enough of that in my daily life. I am not asking anyone to
                                  > change or do anything different - but I want to know so I can make
                                  > a choice about whether this is the right list for me.
                                  >
                                  > Vernellia
                                  >
                                  > -----meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com wrote: -----
                                  >
                                  > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                                  > From: "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr@...>
                                  > Sent by: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Date: 04/11/2006 11:40AM
                                  > Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Prayer
                                  > Ineffective - - -
                                  >
                                  > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, prakki surya
                                  > <dattapr2000@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > [snip]
                                  >
                                  > > Due to such sacred aim the Lord is authorized to punish the
                                  > soul.
                                  >
                                  > Bring it on, you pathetic wannabe godman.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • medit8ionsociety
                                  ... a spiritual journey. I do anti-racism work and I work in a hostile environment. I do not want to be on a list where individuals are dealing with each other
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Apr 11 2:19 PM
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                                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                    Vernellia.Randall@... wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I am new to the list. I joined it because I am beginning
                                    a spiritual journey. I do anti-racism work and I work in
                                    a hostile environment. I do not want to be on a list where
                                    individuals are dealing with each other in a hostile manner.
                                    For Example:
                                    >
                                    >>"Due to such sacred aim the Lord is authorized
                                    to punish the soul.

                                    >>>Bring it on, you pathetic wannabe godman."
                                    >
                                    > I have enough of that in my daily life. I am not asking
                                    anyone to change or do anything different - but I want to
                                    know so I can make a choice about whether this is the right
                                    list for me.
                                    >
                                    > Vernellia
                                    >
                                    Yo Vernellia,
                                    I think that Jodyji is sincere and trying to make an effort
                                    to divert anyone from following a false guru, and he is doing
                                    it in a way he is comfortable with. Similarly, Dattaji is
                                    trying to get people to follow who he thinks is a true Godman,
                                    and doing it in the way he is comfortable. And both have
                                    good intentions. But which is really "right"? One seemingly
                                    berates the other, and the other seems to be threatening to
                                    "punish" any who don't buy into his story. So between them,
                                    we have an opportunity to look within and see if there are
                                    any Jodys or Dattas in us. And we learn. And we can post a
                                    query that asks if this is appropriate, because that's what
                                    we feel comfortable with, as it seems to be what you are
                                    doing. And all these are potentially valuable lessons in
                                    spiritual evolution. I think if you explore the 14,000+
                                    previous posts, you will find the vast majority are filled
                                    with compassion and humility, and not typified by the ones
                                    you have selected here to focus on. But I don't know of any
                                    group where there is such a diversity of religious/spiritual
                                    meditation practices being shared and commented on. And after
                                    all, you will see with the eyes you see with, and hear with
                                    the ears you hear with, and get out of that what you will.
                                    And sometimes a gentle caress will just put you to sleep,
                                    and sometimes it takes a hearty shake to awaken. And I think
                                    we're blessed to have a occasional shaker to go along with
                                    the many many caresser's we have in this group.
                                    Peace and blessings,
                                    Bob
                                  • jodyrrr
                                    Ok folks. I ll leave Swami Datta alone. ... journey. I do anti-racism work and I work in a hostile environment. I do not want to be on a list where
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Apr 11 7:00 PM
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                                      Ok folks. I'll leave Swami Datta alone.

                                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                      Vernellia.Randall@... wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I am new to the list. I joined it because I am beginning a spiritual
                                      journey. I do anti-racism work and I work in a hostile environment. I
                                      do not want to be on a list where individuals are dealing with each
                                      other in a hostile manner. For Example:
                                      >
                                      > "Due to such sacred aim the Lord is authorized to punish
                                      the soul.
                                      > Bring it on, you pathetic wannabe godman."
                                      >
                                      > I have enough of that in my daily life. I am not asking anyone to
                                      change or do anything different - but I want to know so I can make a
                                      choice about whether this is the right list for me.
                                      >
                                      > Vernellia
                                      >
                                      > -----meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com wrote: -----
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                                      > From: "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr@...>
                                      > Sent by: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Date: 04/11/2006 11:40AM
                                      > Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Prayer Ineffective - - -
                                      >
                                      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, prakki surya
                                      > <dattapr2000@> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > [snip]
                                      >
                                      > > Due to such sacred aim the Lord is authorized to punish the soul.
                                      >
                                      > Bring it on, you pathetic wannabe godman.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                      >
                                      > Visit your group " meditationsocietyofamerica " on the web.
                                      >
                                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                      > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      >
                                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service .
                                      >
                                    • jodyrrr
                                      ... Datta attempts to use this list as his own recruiting pool by making grandiose claims about himself. It s like a small town theater director telling you
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Apr 11 7:09 PM
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                                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, suman sk
                                        <sumansk@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > hey admin...
                                        > this has been too much. why dont u ban jodyr from this group..
                                        >
                                        > SK

                                        Datta attempts to use this list as his own recruiting pool by making
                                        grandiose claims about himself. It's like a small town theater
                                        director telling you he's making a 60 million dollar movie and that he
                                        wants you as his star.

                                        Please note I was antagonizing Datta to use his divine powers to smite
                                        me. All these inflated head cases are the same. They say they can
                                        make things happen by way of their God-like powers, but as soon as you
                                        ask them to do something, they demure and make excuses.

                                        But I don't want to scare anyone off, so I will refrain from these
                                        kinds of comments here from now on.



                                        > Vernellia.Randall@... wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I am new to the list. I joined it because I am beginning a
                                        spiritual journey. I do anti-racism work and I work in a hostile
                                        environment. I do not want to be on a list where individuals are
                                        dealing with each other in a hostile manner. For Example:
                                        >
                                        > "Due to such sacred aim the Lord is authorized to
                                        punish the soul.
                                        > Bring it on, you pathetic wannabe godman."
                                        >
                                        > I have enough of that in my daily life. I am not asking anyone to
                                        change or do anything different - but I want to know so I can make a
                                        choice about whether this is the right list for me.
                                        >
                                        > Vernellia
                                        >
                                        > -----meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com wrote: -----
                                        >
                                        > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                                        > From: "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr@...>
                                        > Sent by: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Date: 04/11/2006 11:40AM
                                        > Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Prayer Ineffective - - -
                                        >
                                        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, prakki surya
                                        > <dattapr2000@> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > [snip]
                                        >
                                        > > Due to such sacred aim the Lord is authorized to punish the soul.
                                        >
                                        > Bring it on, you pathetic wannabe godman.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ---------------------------------
                                        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Visit your group "meditationsocietyofamerica" on the web.
                                        >
                                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        >
                                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                        Service.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ---------------------------------
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ---------------------------------
                                        > New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC
                                        and save big.
                                        >
                                      • prakki surya
                                        Swamiji has already shown His power by writing extraordinary divine messages. sofar not only you, anybody on the net could intersect with any counter logic.
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Apr 11 7:56 PM
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                                          Swamiji has already shown His power by writing extraordinary divine messages. sofar not only you, anybody on the net could intersect with any counter logic. You could not attack the logic & concept but like a street fighter, you are attacking personally. Demon Sisupala accused Lord Krishna 100 times and all the 100 times, He did not say anything. Afterwards also Lord killed Him without any trace of revenge in His act. He killed Him to eliminate the sinner as part of establishing justice. Such is the divine nature, which you can never understand.
                                           
                                          This shows that Lord is above fame ...etc. Even great scientists were not identified during their time. Some were killed, some were tortured ...  etc. Even after passing of so many decades, so called advancement of science..., it is the pathetic state of humanity that their egoism and jelousy were never crucified. It is really horrible if we remember cases like crucifixion of Jesus, black magic on Adi Sankara etc. Few people of such quality are there who does such activities. They have to pay for their deeds severely afterwards.
                                           
                                          If you keep Jesus in the place of the present human incarnation and place the same blind priests in the place of present blind followers, you can understand the truth because the same story and the same cinema is repeated with different actors having different names. This is the best way of understanding the truth. Those priests also opposed Jesus, when He argued with wonderful reason. The duty of the teacher finishes by teaching clearly to the class. It is up to the student to grasp it and pass or twist it and fail following the sweet emotional advises of bad blind friends. The Lord is not worried about the percentage of pass because there is no fault in His teaching. He should not be blamed for the pass or failure of the students. A student himself is to be blamed.
                                           
                                          When the messenger comes to the earth, he delivers his duty so that the God is pleased with him in the upper world. He is not bothered about the fame in this world or the number of followers. God will not find fault with the messenger if the human beings did not pass. He finds fault with the messenger if the message is not properly delivered. Jesus never bothered about propagation of His knowledge. His aim was only to sit on the right side of His pleased Father after doing the duty assigned by Him. He never cared even if the people rejected, insulted and even crucified Him. His aim was God but not the world.
                                           
                                          at the lotus feet of shri datta swami
                                          surya
                                          www.universal-spirituality.org

                                          jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
                                          Datta attempts to use this list as his own recruiting pool by making grandiose claims about himself.  It's like a small town theater director telling you he's making a 60 million dollar movie and that he wants you as his star.

                                          Please note I was antagonizing Datta to use his divine powers to smite me.  All these inflated head cases are the same.  They say they can make things happen by way of their God-like powers, but as soon as you ask them to do something, they demure and make excuses.


                                          How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.

                                        • jogeshwarmahanta
                                          ... meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, jogeshwarmahanta ... That is ridiculous. ... The deniel analogy is great without any assertion on the point.
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Apr 12 1:05 AM
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                                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                            <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > --- In
                                            meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jogeshwarmahanta"
                                            > <jogeshwarmahanta@> wrote:
                                            > >

                                            "That is ridiculous.
                                            >
                                            > Using the evidence of siddhis to determine the fitness of
                                            > a guru is like expecting a baby to pop out of the womb in
                                            > full speech because his mother was an English professor."

                                            The deniel analogy is great without any assertion on the point.

                                            regards,
                                            Jogeshwar







                                            > > 1.Sat guru can be only he/she who neither tacitly nor by
                                            expression
                                            > > claims so.
                                            > >
                                            > > 2. He/she who has regulated his/her metabolism favourably-
                                            neither
                                            > > bald, nor wears glass, nor has wrinkles on his/her skin etc etc.
                                            >
                                            > That is ridiculous.
                                            >
                                            > Using the evidence of siddhis to determine the fitness of
                                            > a guru is like expecting a baby to pop out of the womb in
                                            > full speech because his mother was an English professor.
                                            >
                                            > > regards,
                                            > > Jogeshwar
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                            > > <jodyrrr@> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, prakki surya
                                            > > > <dattapr2000@> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > [snip]
                                            > > >
                                            > > > > In all these the disciples identified the Lord in the human
                                            > > > > form during their time and participated in His mission as
                                            > > > > servants. So, first one should identify the Satguru and then
                                            > > > > learn divine knowledge from Him. These disciples worshipped
                                            > > > > their Satguru. At His order, they participated in the
                                            > > propagation
                                            > > > > of divine knowledge as Service to Lord. Service only proves
                                            our
                                            > > > > real devotion, which consists of Karma phala tyaga
                                            (sacrifice of
                                            > > > > money) & karma sanyasa (physically participating in His
                                            mission).
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Horrendously self-serving caterwauling for money and
                                            > > > someone to boss around noted.
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • jodyrrr
                                            ... There is no need to attack the mythological with logic. Swami s message is nothing more than self-aggrandizement at the expense of readers who know better.
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Apr 12 9:11 AM
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                                              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, prakki surya
                                              <dattapr2000@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Swamiji has already shown His power by writing extraordinary
                                              > divine messages. sofar not only you, anybody on the net could
                                              > intersect with any counter logic. You could not attack the
                                              > logic & concept but like a street fighter, you are attacking
                                              > personally.

                                              There is no need to attack the mythological with logic.

                                              Swami's message is nothing more than self-aggrandizement
                                              at the expense of readers who know better. I'm challenging
                                              him personally. Put up or shut up. As expected, he has
                                              nothing to show for his divinity save for more self-serving
                                              rhetoric.
                                            • jogeshwarmahanta
                                              Swami s message is nothing more than self-aggrandizement ... jodyrrr! Are you really a meditator?
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Apr 15 12:07 AM
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                                                "Swami's message is nothing more than self-aggrandizement
                                                > at the expense of readers who know better. I'm challenging
                                                > him personally. Put up or shut up. As expected, he has
                                                > nothing to show for his divinity save for more self-serving
                                                > rhetoric"

                                                jodyrrr! Are you really a meditator?





                                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                                <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, prakki surya
                                                > <dattapr2000@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Swamiji has already shown His power by writing extraordinary
                                                > > divine messages. sofar not only you, anybody on the net could
                                                > > intersect with any counter logic. You could not attack the
                                                > > logic & concept but like a street fighter, you are attacking
                                                > > personally.
                                                >
                                                > There is no need to attack the mythological with logic.
                                                >
                                                > Swami's message is nothing more than self-aggrandizement
                                                > at the expense of readers who know better. I'm challenging
                                                > him personally. Put up or shut up. As expected, he has
                                                > nothing to show for his divinity save for more self-serving
                                                > rhetoric.
                                                >
                                              • jodyrrr
                                                ... Yes.
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Apr 17 8:35 AM
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                                                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jogeshwarmahanta"
                                                  <jogeshwarmahanta@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > "Swami's message is nothing more than self-aggrandizement
                                                  > > at the expense of readers who know better. I'm challenging
                                                  > > him personally. Put up or shut up. As expected, he has
                                                  > > nothing to show for his divinity save for more self-serving
                                                  > > rhetoric"
                                                  >
                                                  > jodyrrr! Are you really a meditator?

                                                  Yes.
                                                • jogeshwarmahanta
                                                  Gains/accomplishments so far?
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Apr 17 11:18 PM
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                                                    Gains/accomplishments so far?




                                                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                                    <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jogeshwarmahanta"
                                                    > <jogeshwarmahanta@> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > "Swami's message is nothing more than self-aggrandizement
                                                    > > > at the expense of readers who know better. I'm challenging
                                                    > > > him personally. Put up or shut up. As expected, he has
                                                    > > > nothing to show for his divinity save for more self-serving
                                                    > > > rhetoric"
                                                    > >
                                                    > > jodyrrr! Are you really a meditator?
                                                    >
                                                    > Yes.
                                                    >
                                                  • jodyrrr
                                                    ... I ve never meditated for gain or accomplishment.
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Apr 18 7:53 AM
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                                                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jogeshwarmahanta"
                                                      <jogeshwarmahanta@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Gains/accomplishments so far?

                                                      I've never meditated for gain or
                                                      accomplishment.

                                                      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                                      > <jodyrrr@> wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jogeshwarmahanta"
                                                      > > <jogeshwarmahanta@> wrote:
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > "Swami's message is nothing more than self-aggrandizement
                                                      > > > > at the expense of readers who know better. I'm challenging
                                                      > > > > him personally. Put up or shut up. As expected, he has
                                                      > > > > nothing to show for his divinity save for more self-serving
                                                      > > > > rhetoric"
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > jodyrrr! Are you really a meditator?
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Yes.
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                    • blueoceantiger
                                                      ... jogeshwarmahanta ... hi jody: ... just curious whether you would be willing to articulate what moves you to meditate and what your experience is of
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Apr 18 10:41 AM
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                                                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                                        <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jogeshwarmahanta"
                                                        > <jogeshwarmahanta@> wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Gains/accomplishments so far?
                                                        >
                                                        > I've never meditated for gain or
                                                        > accomplishment.
                                                        >
                                                        > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                                        > > <jodyrrr@> wrote:
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                                        "jogeshwarmahanta"
                                                        > > > <jogeshwarmahanta@> wrote:
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > "Swami's message is nothing more than self-aggrandizement
                                                        > > > > > at the expense of readers who know better. I'm challenging
                                                        > > > > > him personally. Put up or shut up. As expected, he has
                                                        > > > > > nothing to show for his divinity save for more self-serving
                                                        > > > > > rhetoric"
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > jodyrrr! Are you really a meditator?
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Yes.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > >
                                                        >

                                                        hi jody:

                                                        you wrote:

                                                        > I've never meditated for gain or
                                                        > accomplishment.

                                                        just curious whether you would be willing
                                                        to articulate what moves you to meditate
                                                        and what your experience is of meditating.
                                                        what value or benefit do you find, assuming
                                                        it is positive for you?

                                                        love,
                                                        --josie
                                                      • jodyrrr
                                                        ... wrote: [snip] ... There isn t much to say, Josie. My guru gave the mantra and so I say it. I imagine there are benefits, but I don t think
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Apr 18 3:47 PM
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                                                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "blueoceantiger"
                                                          <jkane@...> wrote:

                                                          [snip]

                                                          > hi jody:
                                                          >
                                                          > you wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > > I've never meditated for gain or
                                                          > > accomplishment.
                                                          >
                                                          > just curious whether you would be willing
                                                          > to articulate what moves you to meditate
                                                          > and what your experience is of meditating.
                                                          > what value or benefit do you find, assuming
                                                          > it is positive for you?
                                                          >
                                                          > love,
                                                          > --josie

                                                          There isn't much to say, Josie. My guru gave
                                                          the mantra and so I say it. I imagine there
                                                          are benefits, but I don't think about them and
                                                          couldn't really say except maybe that the mind
                                                          is a bit more calm than it would have been
                                                          otherwise.
                                                        • AKBAR HIRANI
                                                          Hey Jody when one meditates he or she does it to feel the presence of God and His Super Intelligence insude as well as obtain peace of mind, heart and soul,.
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Apr 20 1:15 PM
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                                                            Hey Jody when one meditates he or she does it to feel the presence of God and His Super Intelligence insude as well as obtain peace of mind, heart and soul,. Not with a purpose  to gain material success or anything else. Once you are selfish in meditation its not a meditation but shallow thinking which will not get you the spititual enlightenment nor inner peace, happiness, or strength.
                                                             
                                                            You can better achieve worldly success by higher education, hard work etc. and not by meditation alone.
                                                             
                                                            AKBAR.


                                                            jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
                                                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "blueoceantiger"
                                                            <jkane@...> wrote:

                                                            [snip]

                                                            > hi jody:
                                                            >
                                                            > you wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > > I've never meditated for gain or
                                                            > > accomplishment.
                                                            >
                                                            > just curious whether you would be willing
                                                            > to articulate what moves you to meditate
                                                            > and what your experience is of meditating.
                                                            > what value or benefit do you find, assuming
                                                            > it is positive for you?
                                                            >
                                                            > love,
                                                            > --josie

                                                            There isn't much to say, Josie.  My guru gave
                                                            the mantra and so I say it.  I imagine there
                                                            are benefits, but I don't think about them and
                                                            couldn't really say except maybe that the mind
                                                            is a bit more calm than it would have been
                                                            otherwise.






                                                            '' THE HORSE THINKS ONE THING
                                                               AND HE WHO SADDLES ANOTHER ''. AGH.          
                                                             


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                                                          • jogeshwarmahanta
                                                            Josie You have rightly elicited what I wanted to know from jodyrr. A cause has an effect and an action has its results. I think none acts for nothing. regards,
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Apr 20 11:16 PM
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                                                              Josie

                                                              You have rightly elicited what I wanted to know from jodyrr. A cause
                                                              has an effect and an action has its results. I think none acts for
                                                              nothing.

                                                              regards,
                                                              Jogeshwar






                                                              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                                              <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "blueoceantiger"
                                                              > <jkane@> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              > [snip]
                                                              >
                                                              > > hi jody:
                                                              > >
                                                              > > you wrote:
                                                              > >
                                                              > > > I've never meditated for gain or
                                                              > > > accomplishment.
                                                              > >
                                                              > > just curious whether you would be willing
                                                              > > to articulate what moves you to meditate
                                                              > > and what your experience is of meditating.
                                                              > > what value or benefit do you find, assuming
                                                              > > it is positive for you?
                                                              > >
                                                              > > love,
                                                              > > --josie
                                                              >
                                                              > There isn't much to say, Josie. My guru gave
                                                              > the mantra and so I say it. I imagine there
                                                              > are benefits, but I don't think about them and
                                                              > couldn't really say except maybe that the mind
                                                              > is a bit more calm than it would have been
                                                              > otherwise.
                                                              >
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