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[Meditation Society of America] Re: The Dalai Lama on TV Said He's Not Enlighten

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  • jodyrrr
    ... Thanks, Bruceji. I m having some trouble finding direct references to the idea of spiritual occlusion, outside of what I originally picked up from you. We
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 21, 2005
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      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
      <editor@j...> wrote:
      >
      > jodyrrr wrote:
      >
      > >--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
      > ><editor@j...> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >>jodyrrr wrote:
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "thinskinnybones"
      > >>><detsgrizz@a...> wrote:
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>>>Jodyrrr is there anything happy about you? You dont seem to like
      > >>>>anyone at all ! Leave the Dalai Lama alone!
      > >>>>
      > >>>>
      > >>>>
      > >>>>
      > >>>If the Dalai Lama is serious about enlightenment
      > >>>being indicated by an ability to see the future,
      > >>>then the guy has his head up his rear.
      > >>>
      > >>>Chances are, he was kidding. At least I hope
      > >>>so.
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>The current Dalai Lama has
      > >>always impressed me as a
      > >>charming, sweet-natured
      > >>fellow, a very astute
      > >>political operator, and
      > >>about as authoritative
      > >>with regard to realization
      > >>as most other high-profile
      > >>senior clerics -- iow, on
      > >>a par with a pile of scrap
      > >>iron.
      > >>
      > >>
      > >
      > >And yet he is held up as an example of enlightenment
      > >for us all. God is one twisted Bitch, that's all I
      > >can say about it.
      > >
      > No doubt about that, which is
      > why your personal (dare I say?)
      > crusade against the occlusive
      > aspects of spear-chill culture
      > has considerable merit imo!

      Thanks, Bruceji.

      I'm having some trouble finding direct references to
      the idea of spiritual occlusion, outside of what I
      originally picked up from you. We may be out on a limb
      with this one, more so than I anticipated, now that
      I'm trying to write a book about it.
    • medit8ionsociety
      ... thinskinnybones ... Yo Sri Jodyji and Sri Bruceji, Like with most things I encounter in this incarnation, I m not 100% certain...of what you mean by
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 21, 2005
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
        <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
        > <editor@j...> wrote:
        > >
        > > jodyrrr wrote:
        > >
        > > >--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
        > > ><editor@j...> wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >>jodyrrr wrote:
        > > >>
        > > >>
        > > >>
        > > >>>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
        "thinskinnybones"
        > > >>><detsgrizz@a...> wrote:
        > > >>>
        > > >>>
        > > >>>
        > > >>>
        > > >>>>Jodyrrr is there anything happy about you? You dont seem to like
        > > >>>>anyone at all ! Leave the Dalai Lama alone!
        > > >>>>
        > > >>>>
        > > >>>>
        > > >>>>
        > > >>>If the Dalai Lama is serious about enlightenment
        > > >>>being indicated by an ability to see the future,
        > > >>>then the guy has his head up his rear.
        > > >>>
        > > >>>Chances are, he was kidding. At least I hope
        > > >>>so.
        > > >>>
        > > >>>
        > > >>>
        > > >>>
        > > >>>
        > > >>The current Dalai Lama has
        > > >>always impressed me as a
        > > >>charming, sweet-natured
        > > >>fellow, a very astute
        > > >>political operator, and
        > > >>about as authoritative
        > > >>with regard to realization
        > > >>as most other high-profile
        > > >>senior clerics -- iow, on
        > > >>a par with a pile of scrap
        > > >>iron.
        > > >>
        > > >>
        > > >
        > > >And yet he is held up as an example of enlightenment
        > > >for us all. God is one twisted Bitch, that's all I
        > > >can say about it.
        > > >
        > > No doubt about that, which is
        > > why your personal (dare I say?)
        > > crusade against the occlusive
        > > aspects of spear-chill culture
        > > has considerable merit imo!
        >
        > Thanks, Bruceji.
        >
        > I'm having some trouble finding direct references to
        > the idea of spiritual occlusion, outside of what I
        > originally picked up from you. We may be out on a limb
        > with this one, more so than I anticipated, now that
        > I'm trying to write a book about it.
        >
        Yo Sri Jodyji and Sri Bruceji,
        Like with most things I encounter in this incarnation,
        I'm not 100% certain...of what you mean by "spiritual
        occlusion", but I tend to think you mean things that
        are obstacles to the direct experience of Truth/Reality/
        Enlightenment/etc. And I think that if this is so,
        there can never be a definite statement made in words
        on paper or pixel or whatever. Perhaps we can only
        state possibilities...like this formula points to:

        Every (spiritual) belief has an
        opposite dis-belief = occlusion.
        Every experience has the potential to be hallucinatory
        in nature – or real = possibly non-occlusive.

        But getting back to the Dalai Lama, when he made the
        "I'm not Enlightened" statement, he was smiling and
        joyous, so I too question his seriousness about the
        statement. Now, forgive me for "name dropping", but
        I remember one time when Swami Satchidananda replied
        to my question about how it felt to be considered a
        Guru, he said that he was amazed that here in America
        he was considered a (spiritual) giant, but in India,
        he know he wasn't even worthy to be the dust under the
        feet of the true giants. I think that in his own eyes,
        he wasn't being falsely modest or anything similar, as
        he had sat for years at the feet of Sri Aurobindo,
        Ramana Maharshi, and Swami Sivananda and I think he
        simply felt himself to be a vehicle and not a driver,
        or some such analogy. And similarly, the Dalai Lama
        often has described himself as just being a simple monk,
        after spending years studying under the very best and
        enlightened teachers that Tibet had to offer. In any event,
        when I see Him, I witness my mind chatter stopping
        and my face and heart smiling, and I'm glad He's still
        available.
        Peace and blessings,
        Bob
      • Bruce Morgen
        ... I m glad he s around too -- and I think his modesty is as entirely sincere and appropriate as his personal charisma is palpably, chatter-stoppingly
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 21, 2005
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          medit8ionsociety wrote:

          >--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
          ><jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
          >><editor@j...> wrote:
          >>
          >>
          >>>jodyrrr wrote:
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
          >>>><editor@j...> wrote:
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>>jodyrrr wrote:
          >>>>>
          >>>>>
          >>>>>
          >>>>>
          >>>>>
          >>>>>>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >"thinskinnybones"
          >
          >
          >>>>>><detsgrizz@a...> wrote:
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>>Jodyrrr is there anything happy about you? You dont seem to like
          >>>>>>>anyone at all ! Leave the Dalai Lama alone!
          >>>>>>>
          >>>>>>>
          >>>>>>>
          >>>>>>>
          >>>>>>>
          >>>>>>>
          >>>>>>If the Dalai Lama is serious about enlightenment
          >>>>>>being indicated by an ability to see the future,
          >>>>>>then the guy has his head up his rear.
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>Chances are, he was kidding. At least I hope
          >>>>>>so.
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>>
          >>>>>The current Dalai Lama has
          >>>>>always impressed me as a
          >>>>>charming, sweet-natured
          >>>>>fellow, a very astute
          >>>>>political operator, and
          >>>>>about as authoritative
          >>>>>with regard to realization
          >>>>>as most other high-profile
          >>>>>senior clerics -- iow, on
          >>>>>a par with a pile of scrap
          >>>>>iron.
          >>>>>
          >>>>>
          >>>>>
          >>>>>
          >>>>And yet he is held up as an example of enlightenment
          >>>>for us all. God is one twisted Bitch, that's all I
          >>>>can say about it.
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>No doubt about that, which is
          >>>why your personal (dare I say?)
          >>>crusade against the occlusive
          >>>aspects of spear-chill culture
          >>>has considerable merit imo!
          >>>
          >>>
          >>Thanks, Bruceji.
          >>
          >>I'm having some trouble finding direct references to
          >>the idea of spiritual occlusion, outside of what I
          >>originally picked up from you. We may be out on a limb
          >>with this one, more so than I anticipated, now that
          >>I'm trying to write a book about it.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >Yo Sri Jodyji and Sri Bruceji,
          >Like with most things I encounter in this incarnation,
          >I'm not 100% certain...of what you mean by "spiritual
          >occlusion", but I tend to think you mean things that
          >are obstacles to the direct experience of Truth/Reality/
          >Enlightenment/etc. And I think that if this is so,
          >there can never be a definite statement made in words
          >on paper or pixel or whatever. Perhaps we can only
          >state possibilities...like this formula points to:
          >
          >Every (spiritual) belief has an
          >opposite dis-belief = occlusion.
          >Every experience has the potential to be hallucinatory
          >in nature – or real = possibly non-occlusive.
          >
          >But getting back to the Dalai Lama, when he made the
          >"I'm not Enlightened" statement, he was smiling and
          >joyous, so I too question his seriousness about the
          >statement. Now, forgive me for "name dropping", but
          >I remember one time when Swami Satchidananda replied
          >to my question about how it felt to be considered a
          >Guru, he said that he was amazed that here in America
          >he was considered a (spiritual) giant, but in India,
          >he know he wasn't even worthy to be the dust under the
          >feet of the true giants. I think that in his own eyes,
          >he wasn't being falsely modest or anything similar, as
          >he had sat for years at the feet of Sri Aurobindo,
          >Ramana Maharshi, and Swami Sivananda and I think he
          >simply felt himself to be a vehicle and not a driver,
          >or some such analogy. And similarly, the Dalai Lama
          >often has described himself as just being a simple monk,
          >after spending years studying under the very best and
          >enlightened teachers that Tibet had to offer. In any event,
          >when I see Him, I witness my mind chatter stopping
          >and my face and heart smiling, and I'm glad He's still
          >available.
          >
          >
          I'm glad he's around too -- and I
          think his modesty is as entirely
          sincere and appropriate as his
          personal charisma is palpably,
          chatter-stoppingly beautiful. As
          for Swamiji, the "not a driver"
          observation you note is something
          all realizers essentially have in
          common, whether they're seen as
          "giants" by others or not. As
          Jodyji might put it, we're all
          marionettes on Ma's strings, the
          key distinction of the realized
          being an ongoing awareness of the
          "non-doer" status of all that is
          incarnated or otherwise manifest.
        • blueoceantiger
          ... there are several aspects that all connect to the dalai lama, the experiences people have or don t have about him, and the function of the dalai lama or
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 21, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
            <editor@j...> wrote:
            >
            > medit8ionsociety wrote:
            >
            > >--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
            > ><jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
            > >><editor@j...> wrote:
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>>jodyrrr wrote:
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>>>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
            > >>>><editor@j...> wrote:
            > >>>>
            > >>>>
            > >>>>
            > >>>>
            > >>>>>jodyrrr wrote:
            > >>>>>
            > >>>>>
            > >>>>>
            > >>>>>
            > >>>>>
            > >>>>>>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
            > >>>>>>
            > >>>>>>
            > >"thinskinnybones"
            > >
            > >
            > >>>>>><detsgrizz@a...> wrote:
            > >>>>>>
            > >>>>>>
            > >>>>>>
            > >>>>>>
            > >>>>>>
            > >>>>>>
            > >>>>>>>Jodyrrr is there anything happy about you? You dont seem to like
            > >>>>>>>anyone at all ! Leave the Dalai Lama alone!
            > >>>>>>>
            > >>>>>>>
            > >>>>>>>
            > >>>>>>>
            > >>>>>>>
            > >>>>>>>
            > >>>>>>If the Dalai Lama is serious about enlightenment
            > >>>>>>being indicated by an ability to see the future,
            > >>>>>>then the guy has his head up his rear.
            > >>>>>>
            > >>>>>>Chances are, he was kidding. At least I hope
            > >>>>>>so.
            > >>>>>>
            > >>>>>>
            > >>>>>>
            > >>>>>>
            > >>>>>>
            > >>>>>>
            > >>>>>>
            > >>>>>The current Dalai Lama has
            > >>>>>always impressed me as a
            > >>>>>charming, sweet-natured
            > >>>>>fellow, a very astute
            > >>>>>political operator, and
            > >>>>>about as authoritative
            > >>>>>with regard to realization
            > >>>>>as most other high-profile
            > >>>>>senior clerics -- iow, on
            > >>>>>a par with a pile of scrap
            > >>>>>iron.
            > >>>>>
            > >>>>>
            > >>>>>
            > >>>>>
            > >>>>And yet he is held up as an example of enlightenment
            > >>>>for us all. God is one twisted Bitch, that's all I
            > >>>>can say about it.
            > >>>>
            > >>>>
            > >>>>
            > >>>No doubt about that, which is
            > >>>why your personal (dare I say?)
            > >>>crusade against the occlusive
            > >>>aspects of spear-chill culture
            > >>>has considerable merit imo!
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>Thanks, Bruceji.
            > >>
            > >>I'm having some trouble finding direct references to
            > >>the idea of spiritual occlusion, outside of what I
            > >>originally picked up from you. We may be out on a limb
            > >>with this one, more so than I anticipated, now that
            > >>I'm trying to write a book about it.
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >Yo Sri Jodyji and Sri Bruceji,
            > >Like with most things I encounter in this incarnation,
            > >I'm not 100% certain...of what you mean by "spiritual
            > >occlusion", but I tend to think you mean things that
            > >are obstacles to the direct experience of Truth/Reality/
            > >Enlightenment/etc. And I think that if this is so,
            > >there can never be a definite statement made in words
            > >on paper or pixel or whatever. Perhaps we can only
            > >state possibilities...like this formula points to:
            > >
            > >Every (spiritual) belief has an
            > >opposite dis-belief = occlusion.
            > >Every experience has the potential to be hallucinatory
            > >in nature – or real = possibly non-occlusive.
            > >
            > >But getting back to the Dalai Lama, when he made the
            > >"I'm not Enlightened" statement, he was smiling and
            > >joyous, so I too question his seriousness about the
            > >statement. Now, forgive me for "name dropping", but
            > >I remember one time when Swami Satchidananda replied
            > >to my question about how it felt to be considered a
            > >Guru, he said that he was amazed that here in America
            > >he was considered a (spiritual) giant, but in India,
            > >he know he wasn't even worthy to be the dust under the
            > >feet of the true giants. I think that in his own eyes,
            > >he wasn't being falsely modest or anything similar, as
            > >he had sat for years at the feet of Sri Aurobindo,
            > >Ramana Maharshi, and Swami Sivananda and I think he
            > >simply felt himself to be a vehicle and not a driver,
            > >or some such analogy. And similarly, the Dalai Lama
            > >often has described himself as just being a simple monk,
            > >after spending years studying under the very best and
            > >enlightened teachers that Tibet had to offer. In any event,
            > >when I see Him, I witness my mind chatter stopping
            > >and my face and heart smiling, and I'm glad He's still
            > >available.
            > >
            > >
            > I'm glad he's around too -- and I
            > think his modesty is as entirely
            > sincere and appropriate as his
            > personal charisma is palpably,
            > chatter-stoppingly beautiful. As
            > for Swamiji, the "not a driver"
            > observation you note is something
            > all realizers essentially have in
            > common, whether they're seen as
            > "giants" by others or not. As
            > Jodyji might put it, we're all
            > marionettes on Ma's strings, the
            > key distinction of the realized
            > being an ongoing awareness of the
            > "non-doer" status of all that is
            > incarnated or otherwise manifest.
            >


            there are several aspects that all connect
            to the dalai lama, the experiences people
            have or don't have about him, and the
            function of the dalai lama or any public
            figure or being.

            in my own experience he represents
            kindness and has been an active component
            in the collaboration between entirely
            different religious groups. perhaps
            there will not be integration between
            fundamentalists but every person that
            serves to include and relate between
            different perspectives adds to the whole.

            having sat with him in a very large venue and
            in a far more intimate setting, what i found
            was someone who is both himself, as well as
            seeming to have an emptiness, in that a role
            is being played but he does not take it
            personally. like being an archetype. a cultural
            symbol.

            in my experience each person has a different
            aspect of consciousness to share, or as some
            say flavour, fragrance or essence. what he
            models for me is a sense of simplicity, open
            hearted humour and humility as others have
            mentioned.

            from my perspective such qualities do not
            occlude but serve to increase openness
            and perhaps increase tolerance around the
            world. without tolerance for differences,
            there is mainly suffering and war. each
            person has their own unique path and there
            is room for many different ways to call
            each being into greater awareness. otherwise,
            all we end up with is fundamentalism.

            as far as enlightenment, many who are awake
            state they cannot claim this for themselves.
            it is rather an awareness of what is.

            --josie--
          • jogeshwarmahanta
            Dear friends, Namaskar. I wonder, why there is no mention of Dalai Lama s recent historical contribution to neuroscience, that is, Nuroplasticity. He
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 21, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear friends,
              Namaskar.

              I wonder, why there is no mention of Dalai Lama's recent historical
              contribution to neuroscience, that is, Nuroplasticity. He inagurated
              the Society for Neuroscience conference on November 12,2005 attended
              by some 14000 brain scientists.

              regards,
              Jogeshwar




              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "blueoceantiger"
              <jkane@d...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
              > <editor@j...> wrote:
              > >
              > > medit8ionsociety wrote:
              > >
              > > >--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
              > > ><jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
              > > >><editor@j...> wrote:
              > > >>
              > > >>
              > > >>>jodyrrr wrote:
              > > >>>
              > > >>>
              > > >>>
              > > >>>>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce
              Morgen
              > > >>>><editor@j...> wrote:
              > > >>>>
              > > >>>>
              > > >>>>
              > > >>>>
              > > >>>>>jodyrrr wrote:
              > > >>>>>
              > > >>>>>
              > > >>>>>
              > > >>>>>
              > > >>>>>
              > > >>>>>>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
              > > >>>>>>
              > > >>>>>>
              > > >"thinskinnybones"
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >>>>>><detsgrizz@a...> wrote:
              > > >>>>>>
              > > >>>>>>
              > > >>>>>>
              > > >>>>>>
              > > >>>>>>
              > > >>>>>>
              > > >>>>>>>Jodyrrr is there anything happy about you? You dont seem
              to like
              > > >>>>>>>anyone at all ! Leave the Dalai Lama alone!
              > > >>>>>>>
              > > >>>>>>>
              > > >>>>>>>
              > > >>>>>>>
              > > >>>>>>>
              > > >>>>>>>
              > > >>>>>>If the Dalai Lama is serious about enlightenment
              > > >>>>>>being indicated by an ability to see the future,
              > > >>>>>>then the guy has his head up his rear.
              > > >>>>>>
              > > >>>>>>Chances are, he was kidding. At least I hope
              > > >>>>>>so.
              > > >>>>>>
              > > >>>>>>
              > > >>>>>>
              > > >>>>>>
              > > >>>>>>
              > > >>>>>>
              > > >>>>>>
              > > >>>>>The current Dalai Lama has
              > > >>>>>always impressed me as a
              > > >>>>>charming, sweet-natured
              > > >>>>>fellow, a very astute
              > > >>>>>political operator, and
              > > >>>>>about as authoritative
              > > >>>>>with regard to realization
              > > >>>>>as most other high-profile
              > > >>>>>senior clerics -- iow, on
              > > >>>>>a par with a pile of scrap
              > > >>>>>iron.
              > > >>>>>
              > > >>>>>
              > > >>>>>
              > > >>>>>
              > > >>>>And yet he is held up as an example of enlightenment
              > > >>>>for us all. God is one twisted Bitch, that's all I
              > > >>>>can say about it.
              > > >>>>
              > > >>>>
              > > >>>>
              > > >>>No doubt about that, which is
              > > >>>why your personal (dare I say?)
              > > >>>crusade against the occlusive
              > > >>>aspects of spear-chill culture
              > > >>>has considerable merit imo!
              > > >>>
              > > >>>
              > > >>Thanks, Bruceji.
              > > >>
              > > >>I'm having some trouble finding direct references to
              > > >>the idea of spiritual occlusion, outside of what I
              > > >>originally picked up from you. We may be out on a limb
              > > >>with this one, more so than I anticipated, now that
              > > >>I'm trying to write a book about it.
              > > >>
              > > >>
              > > >>
              > > >Yo Sri Jodyji and Sri Bruceji,
              > > >Like with most things I encounter in this incarnation,
              > > >I'm not 100% certain...of what you mean by "spiritual
              > > >occlusion", but I tend to think you mean things that
              > > >are obstacles to the direct experience of Truth/Reality/
              > > >Enlightenment/etc. And I think that if this is so,
              > > >there can never be a definite statement made in words
              > > >on paper or pixel or whatever. Perhaps we can only
              > > >state possibilities...like this formula points to:
              > > >
              > > >Every (spiritual) belief has an
              > > >opposite dis-belief = occlusion.
              > > >Every experience has the potential to be hallucinatory
              > > >in nature – or real = possibly non-occlusive.
              > > >
              > > >But getting back to the Dalai Lama, when he made the
              > > >"I'm not Enlightened" statement, he was smiling and
              > > >joyous, so I too question his seriousness about the
              > > >statement. Now, forgive me for "name dropping", but
              > > >I remember one time when Swami Satchidananda replied
              > > >to my question about how it felt to be considered a
              > > >Guru, he said that he was amazed that here in America
              > > >he was considered a (spiritual) giant, but in India,
              > > >he know he wasn't even worthy to be the dust under the
              > > >feet of the true giants. I think that in his own eyes,
              > > >he wasn't being falsely modest or anything similar, as
              > > >he had sat for years at the feet of Sri Aurobindo,
              > > >Ramana Maharshi, and Swami Sivananda and I think he
              > > >simply felt himself to be a vehicle and not a driver,
              > > >or some such analogy. And similarly, the Dalai Lama
              > > >often has described himself as just being a simple monk,
              > > >after spending years studying under the very best and
              > > >enlightened teachers that Tibet had to offer. In any event,
              > > >when I see Him, I witness my mind chatter stopping
              > > >and my face and heart smiling, and I'm glad He's still
              > > >available.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > I'm glad he's around too -- and I
              > > think his modesty is as entirely
              > > sincere and appropriate as his
              > > personal charisma is palpably,
              > > chatter-stoppingly beautiful. As
              > > for Swamiji, the "not a driver"
              > > observation you note is something
              > > all realizers essentially have in
              > > common, whether they're seen as
              > > "giants" by others or not. As
              > > Jodyji might put it, we're all
              > > marionettes on Ma's strings, the
              > > key distinction of the realized
              > > being an ongoing awareness of the
              > > "non-doer" status of all that is
              > > incarnated or otherwise manifest.
              > >
              >
              >
              > there are several aspects that all connect
              > to the dalai lama, the experiences people
              > have or don't have about him, and the
              > function of the dalai lama or any public
              > figure or being.
              >
              > in my own experience he represents
              > kindness and has been an active component
              > in the collaboration between entirely
              > different religious groups. perhaps
              > there will not be integration between
              > fundamentalists but every person that
              > serves to include and relate between
              > different perspectives adds to the whole.
              >
              > having sat with him in a very large venue and
              > in a far more intimate setting, what i found
              > was someone who is both himself, as well as
              > seeming to have an emptiness, in that a role
              > is being played but he does not take it
              > personally. like being an archetype. a cultural
              > symbol.
              >
              > in my experience each person has a different
              > aspect of consciousness to share, or as some
              > say flavour, fragrance or essence. what he
              > models for me is a sense of simplicity, open
              > hearted humour and humility as others have
              > mentioned.
              >
              > from my perspective such qualities do not
              > occlude but serve to increase openness
              > and perhaps increase tolerance around the
              > world. without tolerance for differences,
              > there is mainly suffering and war. each
              > person has their own unique path and there
              > is room for many different ways to call
              > each being into greater awareness. otherwise,
              > all we end up with is fundamentalism.
              >
              > as far as enlightenment, many who are awake
              > state they cannot claim this for themselves.
              > it is rather an awareness of what is.
              >
              > --josie--
              >
            • Durga
              ... wrote: snip ... I ve never seen a Tibetan teacher yet, who *did* say that s/he was enlightened. It s not the done thing in that tradition.
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 22, 2005
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                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "blueoceantiger"
                <jkane@d...> wrote:
                snip
                >
                > as far as enlightenment, many who are awake
                > state they cannot claim this for themselves.
                > it is rather an awareness of what is.
                >
                > --josie--

                I've never seen a Tibetan teacher yet, who *did* say
                that s/he was 'enlightened.' It's not the done thing
                in that tradition. They will praise their own teacher,
                heaping superlatives upon their own guru, while saying
                that they themselves have no understanding at all.
                I've seen this over and over again.

                Also, I believe, that within the Tibetan tradition,
                'enlightenment' is seen in some ways as gradual, which might
                perhaps correspond somewhat to the Vedantic teaching of Self-
                knowledge with pratibhandika's, that is Self-knowledge with
                obstructions, such obstructions having more to do with past
                mental conditioning which are still causing pain in the mind,
                and having nothing at all to do with the actual 'recognition'
                of the Self. (But I'm not really familiar enough with the
                teachings of Tibetan Buddhism to say that for certain).

                I once heard a Tibetan lama, whom I thought was a wonderful
                teacher, with much insight, refer to himself as a 'just small
                piece of pony poop.' So, I think that the practice of modesty
                and self-effacement is totally in keeping with their tradition.
                And I do think that HH was kidding when he gave his reasons
                for not being 'enlightened.' He does have a very good
                sense of humor, and he likes to laugh a lot.--Durga
              • vishal pandya
                Dear all, i got that all the people who is enlighted are not having a some diffrence to find for a normal perso. for that you have to be with him just observe
                Message 7 of 15 , Jan 27, 2006
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                  Dear all,

                  i got that all the people who is enlighted are not having a some
                  diffrence to find for a normal perso.

                  for that you have to be with him just observe him and if you can do
                  this u also find that be witness state is coming in yourself directly.
                  i am not saying just by theory as i had a opportunity to live with
                  enlighted person and after those days i feel that i am changed in all
                  aspects.

                  i am with siddhyogi shri vibhakarji. he is also able to grace
                  kundalini shaktipat.
                  and gracing many people in his camps of dhyana- yoga ( meditation - yoga ).

                  you can contact his site for more details www.siddhyog.org

                  thanks



                  On 12/22/05, Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
                  > jodyrrr wrote:
                  >
                  > >--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                  > "thinskinnybones"
                  > ><detsgrizz@a...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >>Jodyrrr is there anything happy about you? You dont seem to like
                  > >>anyone at all ! Leave the Dalai Lama alone!
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >If the Dalai Lama is serious about enlightenment
                  > >being indicated by an ability to see the future,
                  > >then the guy has his head up his rear.
                  > >
                  > >Chances are, he was kidding. At least I hope
                  > >so.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > The current Dalai Lama has
                  > always impressed me as a
                  > charming, sweet-natured
                  > fellow, a very astute
                  > political operator, and
                  > about as authoritative
                  > with regard to realization
                  > as most other high-profile
                  > senior clerics -- iow, on
                  > a par with a pile of scrap
                  > iron.
                  >
                  > NNB
                  >
                  >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >--- In
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >>meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                  > <jodyrrr@y...>
                  > >>wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                  > medit8ionsociety
                  > >>><no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>>Barbara Walters interviewed the Dalai Lama on
                  > >>>>her show about Heaven last night and He claimed
                  > >>>>he wasn't enlightened. He pointed to an eye
                  > >>>>infection/problem he was having as proof of
                  > >>>>this. He also said He could not be Enlightened
                  > >>>>because he couldn't remember the past accurately
                  > >>>>or tell the future.
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>The guy's head is full of occlusing nonsense.
                  > >>>I kinda feel sorry for him, if he was actually
                  > >>>being serious.
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>>Later in the show he rubbed noses
                  > >>>>with Barbara to demonstrate how some cultures
                  > >>>>practice kissing and then burst out laughing in a way
                  > >>>>that reminded me of the many moments of sheer glee
                  > >>>>and fun that (of all my aquantices) in her purity only
                  > >>>>my 2 year old grandaughter displays.
                  > >>>>To me this showed that it's likely that the Dalai Lama
                  > >>>>has more than just the crutial component of Enlightenment
                  > >>>>which is compassion, but also has the humility that goes with
                  > >>>>being a truly well-balanced Buddha. And also that to be
                  > >>>>"just a man", as He put it, He is playing down His own
                  > >>>>Enlightenment to show all of us that we too can achieve
                  > >>>>what He has, however you lable/define that holy state.
                  > >>>>Peace and blessings,
                  > >>>>Bob
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>One would hope he's kidding about the "tell the
                  > >>>future" thing.
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  >
                  >
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