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[Meditation Society of America] Re: The Dalai Lama on TV Said He's Not Enlighten

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  • jodyrrr
    ... And yet he is held up as an example of enlightenment for us all. God is one twisted Bitch, that s all I can say about it.
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 21, 2005
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      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
      <editor@j...> wrote:
      >
      > jodyrrr wrote:
      >
      > >--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "thinskinnybones"
      > ><detsgrizz@a...> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >>Jodyrrr is there anything happy about you? You dont seem to like
      > >>anyone at all ! Leave the Dalai Lama alone!
      > >>
      > >>
      > >
      > >If the Dalai Lama is serious about enlightenment
      > >being indicated by an ability to see the future,
      > >then the guy has his head up his rear.
      > >
      > >Chances are, he was kidding. At least I hope
      > >so.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > The current Dalai Lama has
      > always impressed me as a
      > charming, sweet-natured
      > fellow, a very astute
      > political operator, and
      > about as authoritative
      > with regard to realization
      > as most other high-profile
      > senior clerics -- iow, on
      > a par with a pile of scrap
      > iron.

      And yet he is held up as an example of enlightenment
      for us all. God is one twisted Bitch, that's all I
      can say about it.
    • Bruce Morgen
      ... No doubt about that, which is why your personal (dare I say?) crusade against the occlusive aspects of spear-chill culture his considerable merit imo!
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 21, 2005
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        jodyrrr wrote:

        >--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
        ><editor@j...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >>jodyrrr wrote:
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "thinskinnybones"
        >>><detsgrizz@a...> wrote:
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>>Jodyrrr is there anything happy about you? You dont seem to like
        >>>>anyone at all ! Leave the Dalai Lama alone!
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>If the Dalai Lama is serious about enlightenment
        >>>being indicated by an ability to see the future,
        >>>then the guy has his head up his rear.
        >>>
        >>>Chances are, he was kidding. At least I hope
        >>>so.
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>The current Dalai Lama has
        >>always impressed me as a
        >>charming, sweet-natured
        >>fellow, a very astute
        >>political operator, and
        >>about as authoritative
        >>with regard to realization
        >>as most other high-profile
        >>senior clerics -- iow, on
        >>a par with a pile of scrap
        >>iron.
        >>
        >>
        >
        >And yet he is held up as an example of enlightenment
        >for us all. God is one twisted Bitch, that's all I
        >can say about it.
        >
        No doubt about that, which is
        why your personal (dare I say?)
        crusade against the occlusive
        aspects of spear-chill culture
        his considerable merit imo!
      • Bruce Morgen
        ... No doubt about that, which is why your personal (dare I say?) crusade against the occlusive aspects of spear-chill culture has considerable merit imo!
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 21, 2005
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          jodyrrr wrote:

          >--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
          ><editor@j...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >>jodyrrr wrote:
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "thinskinnybones"
          >>><detsgrizz@a...> wrote:
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>>Jodyrrr is there anything happy about you? You dont seem to like
          >>>>anyone at all ! Leave the Dalai Lama alone!
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>If the Dalai Lama is serious about enlightenment
          >>>being indicated by an ability to see the future,
          >>>then the guy has his head up his rear.
          >>>
          >>>Chances are, he was kidding. At least I hope
          >>>so.
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>The current Dalai Lama has
          >>always impressed me as a
          >>charming, sweet-natured
          >>fellow, a very astute
          >>political operator, and
          >>about as authoritative
          >>with regard to realization
          >>as most other high-profile
          >>senior clerics -- iow, on
          >>a par with a pile of scrap
          >>iron.
          >>
          >>
          >
          >And yet he is held up as an example of enlightenment
          >for us all. God is one twisted Bitch, that's all I
          >can say about it.
          >
          No doubt about that, which is
          why your personal (dare I say?)
          crusade against the occlusive
          aspects of spear-chill culture
          has considerable merit imo!
        • jodyrrr
          ... Thanks, Bruceji. I m having some trouble finding direct references to the idea of spiritual occlusion, outside of what I originally picked up from you. We
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 21, 2005
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
            <editor@j...> wrote:
            >
            > jodyrrr wrote:
            >
            > >--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
            > ><editor@j...> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >>jodyrrr wrote:
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "thinskinnybones"
            > >>><detsgrizz@a...> wrote:
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>>>Jodyrrr is there anything happy about you? You dont seem to like
            > >>>>anyone at all ! Leave the Dalai Lama alone!
            > >>>>
            > >>>>
            > >>>>
            > >>>>
            > >>>If the Dalai Lama is serious about enlightenment
            > >>>being indicated by an ability to see the future,
            > >>>then the guy has his head up his rear.
            > >>>
            > >>>Chances are, he was kidding. At least I hope
            > >>>so.
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>The current Dalai Lama has
            > >>always impressed me as a
            > >>charming, sweet-natured
            > >>fellow, a very astute
            > >>political operator, and
            > >>about as authoritative
            > >>with regard to realization
            > >>as most other high-profile
            > >>senior clerics -- iow, on
            > >>a par with a pile of scrap
            > >>iron.
            > >>
            > >>
            > >
            > >And yet he is held up as an example of enlightenment
            > >for us all. God is one twisted Bitch, that's all I
            > >can say about it.
            > >
            > No doubt about that, which is
            > why your personal (dare I say?)
            > crusade against the occlusive
            > aspects of spear-chill culture
            > has considerable merit imo!

            Thanks, Bruceji.

            I'm having some trouble finding direct references to
            the idea of spiritual occlusion, outside of what I
            originally picked up from you. We may be out on a limb
            with this one, more so than I anticipated, now that
            I'm trying to write a book about it.
          • medit8ionsociety
            ... thinskinnybones ... Yo Sri Jodyji and Sri Bruceji, Like with most things I encounter in this incarnation, I m not 100% certain...of what you mean by
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 21, 2005
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              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
              <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
              > <editor@j...> wrote:
              > >
              > > jodyrrr wrote:
              > >
              > > >--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
              > > ><editor@j...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >>jodyrrr wrote:
              > > >>
              > > >>
              > > >>
              > > >>>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
              "thinskinnybones"
              > > >>><detsgrizz@a...> wrote:
              > > >>>
              > > >>>
              > > >>>
              > > >>>
              > > >>>>Jodyrrr is there anything happy about you? You dont seem to like
              > > >>>>anyone at all ! Leave the Dalai Lama alone!
              > > >>>>
              > > >>>>
              > > >>>>
              > > >>>>
              > > >>>If the Dalai Lama is serious about enlightenment
              > > >>>being indicated by an ability to see the future,
              > > >>>then the guy has his head up his rear.
              > > >>>
              > > >>>Chances are, he was kidding. At least I hope
              > > >>>so.
              > > >>>
              > > >>>
              > > >>>
              > > >>>
              > > >>>
              > > >>The current Dalai Lama has
              > > >>always impressed me as a
              > > >>charming, sweet-natured
              > > >>fellow, a very astute
              > > >>political operator, and
              > > >>about as authoritative
              > > >>with regard to realization
              > > >>as most other high-profile
              > > >>senior clerics -- iow, on
              > > >>a par with a pile of scrap
              > > >>iron.
              > > >>
              > > >>
              > > >
              > > >And yet he is held up as an example of enlightenment
              > > >for us all. God is one twisted Bitch, that's all I
              > > >can say about it.
              > > >
              > > No doubt about that, which is
              > > why your personal (dare I say?)
              > > crusade against the occlusive
              > > aspects of spear-chill culture
              > > has considerable merit imo!
              >
              > Thanks, Bruceji.
              >
              > I'm having some trouble finding direct references to
              > the idea of spiritual occlusion, outside of what I
              > originally picked up from you. We may be out on a limb
              > with this one, more so than I anticipated, now that
              > I'm trying to write a book about it.
              >
              Yo Sri Jodyji and Sri Bruceji,
              Like with most things I encounter in this incarnation,
              I'm not 100% certain...of what you mean by "spiritual
              occlusion", but I tend to think you mean things that
              are obstacles to the direct experience of Truth/Reality/
              Enlightenment/etc. And I think that if this is so,
              there can never be a definite statement made in words
              on paper or pixel or whatever. Perhaps we can only
              state possibilities...like this formula points to:

              Every (spiritual) belief has an
              opposite dis-belief = occlusion.
              Every experience has the potential to be hallucinatory
              in nature – or real = possibly non-occlusive.

              But getting back to the Dalai Lama, when he made the
              "I'm not Enlightened" statement, he was smiling and
              joyous, so I too question his seriousness about the
              statement. Now, forgive me for "name dropping", but
              I remember one time when Swami Satchidananda replied
              to my question about how it felt to be considered a
              Guru, he said that he was amazed that here in America
              he was considered a (spiritual) giant, but in India,
              he know he wasn't even worthy to be the dust under the
              feet of the true giants. I think that in his own eyes,
              he wasn't being falsely modest or anything similar, as
              he had sat for years at the feet of Sri Aurobindo,
              Ramana Maharshi, and Swami Sivananda and I think he
              simply felt himself to be a vehicle and not a driver,
              or some such analogy. And similarly, the Dalai Lama
              often has described himself as just being a simple monk,
              after spending years studying under the very best and
              enlightened teachers that Tibet had to offer. In any event,
              when I see Him, I witness my mind chatter stopping
              and my face and heart smiling, and I'm glad He's still
              available.
              Peace and blessings,
              Bob
            • Bruce Morgen
              ... I m glad he s around too -- and I think his modesty is as entirely sincere and appropriate as his personal charisma is palpably, chatter-stoppingly
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 21, 2005
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                medit8ionsociety wrote:

                >--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                ><jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
                >><editor@j...> wrote:
                >>
                >>
                >>>jodyrrr wrote:
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
                >>>><editor@j...> wrote:
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>>jodyrrr wrote:
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >>>>>>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>>
                >"thinskinnybones"
                >
                >
                >>>>>><detsgrizz@a...> wrote:
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>>>Jodyrrr is there anything happy about you? You dont seem to like
                >>>>>>>anyone at all ! Leave the Dalai Lama alone!
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>If the Dalai Lama is serious about enlightenment
                >>>>>>being indicated by an ability to see the future,
                >>>>>>then the guy has his head up his rear.
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>>Chances are, he was kidding. At least I hope
                >>>>>>so.
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>The current Dalai Lama has
                >>>>>always impressed me as a
                >>>>>charming, sweet-natured
                >>>>>fellow, a very astute
                >>>>>political operator, and
                >>>>>about as authoritative
                >>>>>with regard to realization
                >>>>>as most other high-profile
                >>>>>senior clerics -- iow, on
                >>>>>a par with a pile of scrap
                >>>>>iron.
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >>>>And yet he is held up as an example of enlightenment
                >>>>for us all. God is one twisted Bitch, that's all I
                >>>>can say about it.
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>No doubt about that, which is
                >>>why your personal (dare I say?)
                >>>crusade against the occlusive
                >>>aspects of spear-chill culture
                >>>has considerable merit imo!
                >>>
                >>>
                >>Thanks, Bruceji.
                >>
                >>I'm having some trouble finding direct references to
                >>the idea of spiritual occlusion, outside of what I
                >>originally picked up from you. We may be out on a limb
                >>with this one, more so than I anticipated, now that
                >>I'm trying to write a book about it.
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >Yo Sri Jodyji and Sri Bruceji,
                >Like with most things I encounter in this incarnation,
                >I'm not 100% certain...of what you mean by "spiritual
                >occlusion", but I tend to think you mean things that
                >are obstacles to the direct experience of Truth/Reality/
                >Enlightenment/etc. And I think that if this is so,
                >there can never be a definite statement made in words
                >on paper or pixel or whatever. Perhaps we can only
                >state possibilities...like this formula points to:
                >
                >Every (spiritual) belief has an
                >opposite dis-belief = occlusion.
                >Every experience has the potential to be hallucinatory
                >in nature – or real = possibly non-occlusive.
                >
                >But getting back to the Dalai Lama, when he made the
                >"I'm not Enlightened" statement, he was smiling and
                >joyous, so I too question his seriousness about the
                >statement. Now, forgive me for "name dropping", but
                >I remember one time when Swami Satchidananda replied
                >to my question about how it felt to be considered a
                >Guru, he said that he was amazed that here in America
                >he was considered a (spiritual) giant, but in India,
                >he know he wasn't even worthy to be the dust under the
                >feet of the true giants. I think that in his own eyes,
                >he wasn't being falsely modest or anything similar, as
                >he had sat for years at the feet of Sri Aurobindo,
                >Ramana Maharshi, and Swami Sivananda and I think he
                >simply felt himself to be a vehicle and not a driver,
                >or some such analogy. And similarly, the Dalai Lama
                >often has described himself as just being a simple monk,
                >after spending years studying under the very best and
                >enlightened teachers that Tibet had to offer. In any event,
                >when I see Him, I witness my mind chatter stopping
                >and my face and heart smiling, and I'm glad He's still
                >available.
                >
                >
                I'm glad he's around too -- and I
                think his modesty is as entirely
                sincere and appropriate as his
                personal charisma is palpably,
                chatter-stoppingly beautiful. As
                for Swamiji, the "not a driver"
                observation you note is something
                all realizers essentially have in
                common, whether they're seen as
                "giants" by others or not. As
                Jodyji might put it, we're all
                marionettes on Ma's strings, the
                key distinction of the realized
                being an ongoing awareness of the
                "non-doer" status of all that is
                incarnated or otherwise manifest.
              • blueoceantiger
                ... there are several aspects that all connect to the dalai lama, the experiences people have or don t have about him, and the function of the dalai lama or
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 21, 2005
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                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
                  <editor@j...> wrote:
                  >
                  > medit8ionsociety wrote:
                  >
                  > >--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                  > ><jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
                  > >><editor@j...> wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>>jodyrrr wrote:
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
                  > >>>><editor@j...> wrote:
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>>jodyrrr wrote:
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>>>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                  > >>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>
                  > >"thinskinnybones"
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >>>>>><detsgrizz@a...> wrote:
                  > >>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>>Jodyrrr is there anything happy about you? You dont seem to like
                  > >>>>>>>anyone at all ! Leave the Dalai Lama alone!
                  > >>>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>If the Dalai Lama is serious about enlightenment
                  > >>>>>>being indicated by an ability to see the future,
                  > >>>>>>then the guy has his head up his rear.
                  > >>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>Chances are, he was kidding. At least I hope
                  > >>>>>>so.
                  > >>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>
                  > >>>>>The current Dalai Lama has
                  > >>>>>always impressed me as a
                  > >>>>>charming, sweet-natured
                  > >>>>>fellow, a very astute
                  > >>>>>political operator, and
                  > >>>>>about as authoritative
                  > >>>>>with regard to realization
                  > >>>>>as most other high-profile
                  > >>>>>senior clerics -- iow, on
                  > >>>>>a par with a pile of scrap
                  > >>>>>iron.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>And yet he is held up as an example of enlightenment
                  > >>>>for us all. God is one twisted Bitch, that's all I
                  > >>>>can say about it.
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>No doubt about that, which is
                  > >>>why your personal (dare I say?)
                  > >>>crusade against the occlusive
                  > >>>aspects of spear-chill culture
                  > >>>has considerable merit imo!
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>Thanks, Bruceji.
                  > >>
                  > >>I'm having some trouble finding direct references to
                  > >>the idea of spiritual occlusion, outside of what I
                  > >>originally picked up from you. We may be out on a limb
                  > >>with this one, more so than I anticipated, now that
                  > >>I'm trying to write a book about it.
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >Yo Sri Jodyji and Sri Bruceji,
                  > >Like with most things I encounter in this incarnation,
                  > >I'm not 100% certain...of what you mean by "spiritual
                  > >occlusion", but I tend to think you mean things that
                  > >are obstacles to the direct experience of Truth/Reality/
                  > >Enlightenment/etc. And I think that if this is so,
                  > >there can never be a definite statement made in words
                  > >on paper or pixel or whatever. Perhaps we can only
                  > >state possibilities...like this formula points to:
                  > >
                  > >Every (spiritual) belief has an
                  > >opposite dis-belief = occlusion.
                  > >Every experience has the potential to be hallucinatory
                  > >in nature – or real = possibly non-occlusive.
                  > >
                  > >But getting back to the Dalai Lama, when he made the
                  > >"I'm not Enlightened" statement, he was smiling and
                  > >joyous, so I too question his seriousness about the
                  > >statement. Now, forgive me for "name dropping", but
                  > >I remember one time when Swami Satchidananda replied
                  > >to my question about how it felt to be considered a
                  > >Guru, he said that he was amazed that here in America
                  > >he was considered a (spiritual) giant, but in India,
                  > >he know he wasn't even worthy to be the dust under the
                  > >feet of the true giants. I think that in his own eyes,
                  > >he wasn't being falsely modest or anything similar, as
                  > >he had sat for years at the feet of Sri Aurobindo,
                  > >Ramana Maharshi, and Swami Sivananda and I think he
                  > >simply felt himself to be a vehicle and not a driver,
                  > >or some such analogy. And similarly, the Dalai Lama
                  > >often has described himself as just being a simple monk,
                  > >after spending years studying under the very best and
                  > >enlightened teachers that Tibet had to offer. In any event,
                  > >when I see Him, I witness my mind chatter stopping
                  > >and my face and heart smiling, and I'm glad He's still
                  > >available.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > I'm glad he's around too -- and I
                  > think his modesty is as entirely
                  > sincere and appropriate as his
                  > personal charisma is palpably,
                  > chatter-stoppingly beautiful. As
                  > for Swamiji, the "not a driver"
                  > observation you note is something
                  > all realizers essentially have in
                  > common, whether they're seen as
                  > "giants" by others or not. As
                  > Jodyji might put it, we're all
                  > marionettes on Ma's strings, the
                  > key distinction of the realized
                  > being an ongoing awareness of the
                  > "non-doer" status of all that is
                  > incarnated or otherwise manifest.
                  >


                  there are several aspects that all connect
                  to the dalai lama, the experiences people
                  have or don't have about him, and the
                  function of the dalai lama or any public
                  figure or being.

                  in my own experience he represents
                  kindness and has been an active component
                  in the collaboration between entirely
                  different religious groups. perhaps
                  there will not be integration between
                  fundamentalists but every person that
                  serves to include and relate between
                  different perspectives adds to the whole.

                  having sat with him in a very large venue and
                  in a far more intimate setting, what i found
                  was someone who is both himself, as well as
                  seeming to have an emptiness, in that a role
                  is being played but he does not take it
                  personally. like being an archetype. a cultural
                  symbol.

                  in my experience each person has a different
                  aspect of consciousness to share, or as some
                  say flavour, fragrance or essence. what he
                  models for me is a sense of simplicity, open
                  hearted humour and humility as others have
                  mentioned.

                  from my perspective such qualities do not
                  occlude but serve to increase openness
                  and perhaps increase tolerance around the
                  world. without tolerance for differences,
                  there is mainly suffering and war. each
                  person has their own unique path and there
                  is room for many different ways to call
                  each being into greater awareness. otherwise,
                  all we end up with is fundamentalism.

                  as far as enlightenment, many who are awake
                  state they cannot claim this for themselves.
                  it is rather an awareness of what is.

                  --josie--
                • jogeshwarmahanta
                  Dear friends, Namaskar. I wonder, why there is no mention of Dalai Lama s recent historical contribution to neuroscience, that is, Nuroplasticity. He
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 21, 2005
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                    Dear friends,
                    Namaskar.

                    I wonder, why there is no mention of Dalai Lama's recent historical
                    contribution to neuroscience, that is, Nuroplasticity. He inagurated
                    the Society for Neuroscience conference on November 12,2005 attended
                    by some 14000 brain scientists.

                    regards,
                    Jogeshwar




                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "blueoceantiger"
                    <jkane@d...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
                    > <editor@j...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > medit8ionsociety wrote:
                    > >
                    > > >--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                    > > ><jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
                    > > >><editor@j...> wrote:
                    > > >>
                    > > >>
                    > > >>>jodyrrr wrote:
                    > > >>>
                    > > >>>
                    > > >>>
                    > > >>>>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce
                    Morgen
                    > > >>>><editor@j...> wrote:
                    > > >>>>
                    > > >>>>
                    > > >>>>
                    > > >>>>
                    > > >>>>>jodyrrr wrote:
                    > > >>>>>
                    > > >>>>>
                    > > >>>>>
                    > > >>>>>
                    > > >>>>>
                    > > >>>>>>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                    > > >>>>>>
                    > > >>>>>>
                    > > >"thinskinnybones"
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >>>>>><detsgrizz@a...> wrote:
                    > > >>>>>>
                    > > >>>>>>
                    > > >>>>>>
                    > > >>>>>>
                    > > >>>>>>
                    > > >>>>>>
                    > > >>>>>>>Jodyrrr is there anything happy about you? You dont seem
                    to like
                    > > >>>>>>>anyone at all ! Leave the Dalai Lama alone!
                    > > >>>>>>>
                    > > >>>>>>>
                    > > >>>>>>>
                    > > >>>>>>>
                    > > >>>>>>>
                    > > >>>>>>>
                    > > >>>>>>If the Dalai Lama is serious about enlightenment
                    > > >>>>>>being indicated by an ability to see the future,
                    > > >>>>>>then the guy has his head up his rear.
                    > > >>>>>>
                    > > >>>>>>Chances are, he was kidding. At least I hope
                    > > >>>>>>so.
                    > > >>>>>>
                    > > >>>>>>
                    > > >>>>>>
                    > > >>>>>>
                    > > >>>>>>
                    > > >>>>>>
                    > > >>>>>>
                    > > >>>>>The current Dalai Lama has
                    > > >>>>>always impressed me as a
                    > > >>>>>charming, sweet-natured
                    > > >>>>>fellow, a very astute
                    > > >>>>>political operator, and
                    > > >>>>>about as authoritative
                    > > >>>>>with regard to realization
                    > > >>>>>as most other high-profile
                    > > >>>>>senior clerics -- iow, on
                    > > >>>>>a par with a pile of scrap
                    > > >>>>>iron.
                    > > >>>>>
                    > > >>>>>
                    > > >>>>>
                    > > >>>>>
                    > > >>>>And yet he is held up as an example of enlightenment
                    > > >>>>for us all. God is one twisted Bitch, that's all I
                    > > >>>>can say about it.
                    > > >>>>
                    > > >>>>
                    > > >>>>
                    > > >>>No doubt about that, which is
                    > > >>>why your personal (dare I say?)
                    > > >>>crusade against the occlusive
                    > > >>>aspects of spear-chill culture
                    > > >>>has considerable merit imo!
                    > > >>>
                    > > >>>
                    > > >>Thanks, Bruceji.
                    > > >>
                    > > >>I'm having some trouble finding direct references to
                    > > >>the idea of spiritual occlusion, outside of what I
                    > > >>originally picked up from you. We may be out on a limb
                    > > >>with this one, more so than I anticipated, now that
                    > > >>I'm trying to write a book about it.
                    > > >>
                    > > >>
                    > > >>
                    > > >Yo Sri Jodyji and Sri Bruceji,
                    > > >Like with most things I encounter in this incarnation,
                    > > >I'm not 100% certain...of what you mean by "spiritual
                    > > >occlusion", but I tend to think you mean things that
                    > > >are obstacles to the direct experience of Truth/Reality/
                    > > >Enlightenment/etc. And I think that if this is so,
                    > > >there can never be a definite statement made in words
                    > > >on paper or pixel or whatever. Perhaps we can only
                    > > >state possibilities...like this formula points to:
                    > > >
                    > > >Every (spiritual) belief has an
                    > > >opposite dis-belief = occlusion.
                    > > >Every experience has the potential to be hallucinatory
                    > > >in nature – or real = possibly non-occlusive.
                    > > >
                    > > >But getting back to the Dalai Lama, when he made the
                    > > >"I'm not Enlightened" statement, he was smiling and
                    > > >joyous, so I too question his seriousness about the
                    > > >statement. Now, forgive me for "name dropping", but
                    > > >I remember one time when Swami Satchidananda replied
                    > > >to my question about how it felt to be considered a
                    > > >Guru, he said that he was amazed that here in America
                    > > >he was considered a (spiritual) giant, but in India,
                    > > >he know he wasn't even worthy to be the dust under the
                    > > >feet of the true giants. I think that in his own eyes,
                    > > >he wasn't being falsely modest or anything similar, as
                    > > >he had sat for years at the feet of Sri Aurobindo,
                    > > >Ramana Maharshi, and Swami Sivananda and I think he
                    > > >simply felt himself to be a vehicle and not a driver,
                    > > >or some such analogy. And similarly, the Dalai Lama
                    > > >often has described himself as just being a simple monk,
                    > > >after spending years studying under the very best and
                    > > >enlightened teachers that Tibet had to offer. In any event,
                    > > >when I see Him, I witness my mind chatter stopping
                    > > >and my face and heart smiling, and I'm glad He's still
                    > > >available.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > I'm glad he's around too -- and I
                    > > think his modesty is as entirely
                    > > sincere and appropriate as his
                    > > personal charisma is palpably,
                    > > chatter-stoppingly beautiful. As
                    > > for Swamiji, the "not a driver"
                    > > observation you note is something
                    > > all realizers essentially have in
                    > > common, whether they're seen as
                    > > "giants" by others or not. As
                    > > Jodyji might put it, we're all
                    > > marionettes on Ma's strings, the
                    > > key distinction of the realized
                    > > being an ongoing awareness of the
                    > > "non-doer" status of all that is
                    > > incarnated or otherwise manifest.
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > there are several aspects that all connect
                    > to the dalai lama, the experiences people
                    > have or don't have about him, and the
                    > function of the dalai lama or any public
                    > figure or being.
                    >
                    > in my own experience he represents
                    > kindness and has been an active component
                    > in the collaboration between entirely
                    > different religious groups. perhaps
                    > there will not be integration between
                    > fundamentalists but every person that
                    > serves to include and relate between
                    > different perspectives adds to the whole.
                    >
                    > having sat with him in a very large venue and
                    > in a far more intimate setting, what i found
                    > was someone who is both himself, as well as
                    > seeming to have an emptiness, in that a role
                    > is being played but he does not take it
                    > personally. like being an archetype. a cultural
                    > symbol.
                    >
                    > in my experience each person has a different
                    > aspect of consciousness to share, or as some
                    > say flavour, fragrance or essence. what he
                    > models for me is a sense of simplicity, open
                    > hearted humour and humility as others have
                    > mentioned.
                    >
                    > from my perspective such qualities do not
                    > occlude but serve to increase openness
                    > and perhaps increase tolerance around the
                    > world. without tolerance for differences,
                    > there is mainly suffering and war. each
                    > person has their own unique path and there
                    > is room for many different ways to call
                    > each being into greater awareness. otherwise,
                    > all we end up with is fundamentalism.
                    >
                    > as far as enlightenment, many who are awake
                    > state they cannot claim this for themselves.
                    > it is rather an awareness of what is.
                    >
                    > --josie--
                    >
                  • Durga
                    ... wrote: snip ... I ve never seen a Tibetan teacher yet, who *did* say that s/he was enlightened. It s not the done thing in that tradition.
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 22, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "blueoceantiger"
                      <jkane@d...> wrote:
                      snip
                      >
                      > as far as enlightenment, many who are awake
                      > state they cannot claim this for themselves.
                      > it is rather an awareness of what is.
                      >
                      > --josie--

                      I've never seen a Tibetan teacher yet, who *did* say
                      that s/he was 'enlightened.' It's not the done thing
                      in that tradition. They will praise their own teacher,
                      heaping superlatives upon their own guru, while saying
                      that they themselves have no understanding at all.
                      I've seen this over and over again.

                      Also, I believe, that within the Tibetan tradition,
                      'enlightenment' is seen in some ways as gradual, which might
                      perhaps correspond somewhat to the Vedantic teaching of Self-
                      knowledge with pratibhandika's, that is Self-knowledge with
                      obstructions, such obstructions having more to do with past
                      mental conditioning which are still causing pain in the mind,
                      and having nothing at all to do with the actual 'recognition'
                      of the Self. (But I'm not really familiar enough with the
                      teachings of Tibetan Buddhism to say that for certain).

                      I once heard a Tibetan lama, whom I thought was a wonderful
                      teacher, with much insight, refer to himself as a 'just small
                      piece of pony poop.' So, I think that the practice of modesty
                      and self-effacement is totally in keeping with their tradition.
                      And I do think that HH was kidding when he gave his reasons
                      for not being 'enlightened.' He does have a very good
                      sense of humor, and he likes to laugh a lot.--Durga
                    • vishal pandya
                      Dear all, i got that all the people who is enlighted are not having a some diffrence to find for a normal perso. for that you have to be with him just observe
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jan 27, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear all,

                        i got that all the people who is enlighted are not having a some
                        diffrence to find for a normal perso.

                        for that you have to be with him just observe him and if you can do
                        this u also find that be witness state is coming in yourself directly.
                        i am not saying just by theory as i had a opportunity to live with
                        enlighted person and after those days i feel that i am changed in all
                        aspects.

                        i am with siddhyogi shri vibhakarji. he is also able to grace
                        kundalini shaktipat.
                        and gracing many people in his camps of dhyana- yoga ( meditation - yoga ).

                        you can contact his site for more details www.siddhyog.org

                        thanks



                        On 12/22/05, Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
                        > jodyrrr wrote:
                        >
                        > >--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                        > "thinskinnybones"
                        > ><detsgrizz@a...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >>Jodyrrr is there anything happy about you? You dont seem to like
                        > >>anyone at all ! Leave the Dalai Lama alone!
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >If the Dalai Lama is serious about enlightenment
                        > >being indicated by an ability to see the future,
                        > >then the guy has his head up his rear.
                        > >
                        > >Chances are, he was kidding. At least I hope
                        > >so.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > The current Dalai Lama has
                        > always impressed me as a
                        > charming, sweet-natured
                        > fellow, a very astute
                        > political operator, and
                        > about as authoritative
                        > with regard to realization
                        > as most other high-profile
                        > senior clerics -- iow, on
                        > a par with a pile of scrap
                        > iron.
                        >
                        > NNB
                        >
                        >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >--- In
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >>meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                        > <jodyrrr@y...>
                        > >>wrote:
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                        > medit8ionsociety
                        > >>><no_reply@y...> wrote:
                        > >>>
                        > >>>
                        > >>>>Barbara Walters interviewed the Dalai Lama on
                        > >>>>her show about Heaven last night and He claimed
                        > >>>>he wasn't enlightened. He pointed to an eye
                        > >>>>infection/problem he was having as proof of
                        > >>>>this. He also said He could not be Enlightened
                        > >>>>because he couldn't remember the past accurately
                        > >>>>or tell the future.
                        > >>>>
                        > >>>>
                        > >>>The guy's head is full of occlusing nonsense.
                        > >>>I kinda feel sorry for him, if he was actually
                        > >>>being serious.
                        > >>>
                        > >>>
                        > >>>
                        > >>>>Later in the show he rubbed noses
                        > >>>>with Barbara to demonstrate how some cultures
                        > >>>>practice kissing and then burst out laughing in a way
                        > >>>>that reminded me of the many moments of sheer glee
                        > >>>>and fun that (of all my aquantices) in her purity only
                        > >>>>my 2 year old grandaughter displays.
                        > >>>>To me this showed that it's likely that the Dalai Lama
                        > >>>>has more than just the crutial component of Enlightenment
                        > >>>>which is compassion, but also has the humility that goes with
                        > >>>>being a truly well-balanced Buddha. And also that to be
                        > >>>>"just a man", as He put it, He is playing down His own
                        > >>>>Enlightenment to show all of us that we too can achieve
                        > >>>>what He has, however you lable/define that holy state.
                        > >>>>Peace and blessings,
                        > >>>>Bob
                        > >>>>
                        > >>>>
                        > >>>One would hope he's kidding about the "tell the
                        > >>>future" thing.
                        > >>>
                        > >>>
                        >
                        >
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