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Re: [Meditation Society of America] Unselfish Love

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  • Sandeep
    The sense of a suffering, .......the sense of a grief, the sense of a humilation, the sense of a hurt.......no matter about what and no matter what the
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 30, 2005
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      The sense of a suffering, .......the sense of a grief, the sense of a humilation, the sense of a hurt.......no matter about what and no matter what the intensity, ......... are all opportunities to explore.



      Irrespective of the elements making up the suffering, (they keep changing anyway, while suffering remains suffering)........ 

      see what is the case in the moment. 

      There has been or is currently enfolding.......... a series of events, as actions, whether physical, emotional or mental.

      These physical, emotion, mental events, ...........are just that... ...happenings in a phenomenal context....making up that very phenomenal context.


      Along with these events, is the associated feeling, conclusion, judgement, yearning.

      Which is,.............. these events should not have been so.

      Or,......... yes these events ARE what should have been.


      One converts the events into a sense of suffering, into a sense of grief , a sense of hurt.

      The other converts the same events into a sense of joy, into a sense of happiness.




      It does not require much intelligence to see that the events per se have nothing to do with the sense of the suffering

      or the sense of joy prevailing in that moment, but it is the added flavouring aka the sense of "should/should-not" which is.



      That the dearly beloved has responded in "a" manner .......... is an event.

      That such "should not have happened"......  converts that event into suffering.

      My life is one succession of "disastrous" events.

      That is not the misery.

      That it should have been something else .....anything but this......

      ........is the sense of misery.


      So knowing this,............ what does one do with the sense of depression, the sense of suffering,.....

      .... the sense of loss, .........which may very well persist, ........despite knowing (at least intellectually) that the it is nothing but my contribution to the event.





      If you can see (and that can only be in the instant)...............that if the event which got coloured and is now seen to be the source of misery.....

      .......if that event had to happen as a nuance of the functioning of Totality.....as the moment............then that very sense of colouration-of-the-
       
      event=ensuing-sense-of-misery.............cannot but be......... part of the same nuance itself!!!


      That,.... the continued sense of misery is also an attribute of the same event.

      And will end, if it is supposed to end.

      And will continue, if it is supposed to continue.




      Such a seeing, such an apperceiving......

      ..... is the immediate transcendence of the phenomenal context, in which the event and associated sense of misery/joy is taking place.





      Now if that apperceiving has not taken place (again that not-haven-taken-place....... too is part of the moment)......

      .....another arising movement could well come to be.........which is to investigate this sense of suffering.



      Rather than look to alter the event (which if it is to take place, it will anyway)..........look to ascertain just who is it,.........for whom, .......the event is a suffering, a "hurt". 

      A suffering is only a sense of a suffering and thus of relevance, or significance........... only for a "sufferer".

      Look for that "sufferer" or the hurt. 



      How to do that?

      A sense of a hurt, a sense of a feeling, no matter what that feeling is about........ ......is after all an arising thought...with maybe an associated sensation in the body.

      To whom did this thought arise to?

      A question,............ to which,............. if another thought arises as an answer.... ....the question remains intact.....

      ....as to whom did this "now-answer-thought" arise to?

      And so on.



      Thus the question can never be thought out of it's existence.



      But there is an ending of the question.........which can only be in the end of the "questioner".



      With the ending of the entity...........is the end of the sense of suffering..............but not necessarily the end of the events which prompted the entire hoopla.


      Thus,.......... relationships start, relationships end,

      fortunes arrive in the open palms,

      fortunes slip away from those very open palms, ..

      ..change happens, evolution happens...

      ....things happen, .............events occur.....

      .....none is seen as good or bad.


      All is holy.

      All is profound.

      All is appropriate.

      All is....as it is....
       
      ...and even the terms "holy", "profound", "appropriate".........drop away.
       

      Moment to moment to moment.
       
       
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 12:26 AM
      Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Unselfish Love

      Hello everyone,

      Something is really bothering me.  As our true natures, how do we
      express ourselves honestly with people?  I can just go with the flow. 
      But recently I had this loving awarenes, which I am, thrown back in my
      face in their time of anger.  It really hurt.

      I tried to be unselfish, and just be there for her, when she hugs me,
      and when she "kicks me in the balls".  But something is not right.  Why
      do I feel hurt?

      This must be some bad ass karma I was thinking.

      What is unselfish love?  I thought I knew.

      Namaste
      JJM


    • Rushikant Mehta
      Truth, very well said ! But how can one stop coloring the events with should/should not ? Just by thinking & wishing a million times that I don t want to do
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 1, 2005
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        Truth, very well said !
         
        But how can one stop coloring the events with 'should/should not' ?
        Just by thinking & wishing a million times that I don't want to do it ? Or determining that I'll NOT do it ?
         
        Nope, the conscious mind may want & decide not to add color to an event but the habit of doing that is so deeply & intensly ingrained in the subconscious that the moment the event occurs, it overpowers the intellect & reasoning of the poor conscious & before one knows, reaction takes place. When this is happening it is nearly impossible to get detached from it & witness it from a distance.
         
        Here is how meditation helps. If one sits alone doing NOTHING, the first thing that props up in mind is the memory of the most powerful passonate event that has taken place recently or before. And mind starts coloring it with thoughts & wishes. One starts rolling over in them  just as if the event is reocurring even though the other party concerned is not physically present to cause or contribute to it. Along with that flood of emotions, a number of sensations start arising in the body. With little practice & patience one can observe these sensations. And lo ! that mental act of observing helps to stand, bear & witness that flow arising & intensifying but slowly & surely waning & withering away! With every re-run of this observation, the strength of that event's influence in the mind also weakens till it completely passes out. Very soon, one can experience that the mind is absolutely free of the after-effects of that event. So much so that its memory no longer pains. If by chance the other person confronts again, the mind being bereft of all negativities surrounding that person, one can cooly face the reality & hit the solution to the relationship tangle.
        Inspired by the result, as one practices more & more,one can eradicate all accumulated 'sanskaars' of innumerable events, by developing this attitude of detached witnessing & can then remain cool, unhazed, unfazed in any future event too. 
         
        If meditation cannot help to this end, nothing else can.
        And if meditation cannot help to this end, it is anything but meditation !
         
        -rushikant.
         
         
         

        Sandeep <sandeep1960@...> wrote:
         
        The sense of a suffering, .......the sense of a grief, the sense of a humilation, the sense of a hurt.......no matter about what and no matter what the intensity, ......... are all opportunities to explore.



        Irrespective of the elements making up the suffering, (they keep changing anyway, while suffering remains suffering)........ 

        see what is the case in the moment. 

        There has been or is currently enfolding.......... a series of events, as actions, whether physical, emotional or mental.

        These physical, emotion, mental events, ...........are just that... ...happenings in a phenomenal context....making up that very phenomenal context.


        Along with these events, is the associated feeling, conclusion, judgement, yearning.

        Which is,.............. these events should not have been so.

        Or,......... yes these events ARE what should have been.


        One converts the events into a sense of suffering, into a sense of grief , a sense of hurt.

        The other converts the same events into a sense of joy, into a sense of happiness.




        It does not require much intelligence to see that the events per se have nothing to do with the sense of the suffering

        or the sense of joy prevailing in that moment, but it is the added flavouring aka the sense of "should/should-not" which is.



        That the dearly beloved has responded in "a" manner .......... is an event.

        That such "should not have happened"......  converts that event into suffering.

        My life is one succession of "disastrous" events.

        That is not the misery.

        That it should have been something else .....anything but this......

        ........is the sense of misery.


        So knowing this,............ what does one do with the sense of depression, the sense of suffering,.....

        .... the sense of loss, .........which may very well persist, ........despite knowing (at least intellectually) that the it is nothing but my contribution to the event.





        If you can see (and that can only be in the instant)...............that if the event which got coloured and is now seen to be the source of misery.....

        .......if that event had to happen as a nuance of the functioning of Totality.....as the moment............then that very sense of colouration-of-the-
         
        event=ensuing-sense-of-misery.............cannot but be......... part of the same nuance itself!!!


        That,.... the continued sense of misery is also an attribute of the same event.

        And will end, if it is supposed to end.

        And will continue, if it is supposed to continue.




        Such a seeing, such an apperceiving......

        ..... is the immediate transcendence of the phenomenal context, in which the event and associated sense of misery/joy is taking place.





        Now if that apperceiving has not taken place (again that not-haven-taken-place....... too is part of the moment)......

        .....another arising movement could well come to be.........which is to investigate this sense of suffering.



        Rather than look to alter the event (which if it is to take place, it will anyway)..........look to ascertain just who is it,.........for whom, .......the event is a suffering, a "hurt". 

        A suffering is only a sense of a suffering and thus of relevance, or significance........... only for a "sufferer".

        Look for that "sufferer" or the hurt. 



        How to do that?

        A sense of a hurt, a sense of a feeling, no matter what that feeling is about........ ......is after all an arising thought...with maybe an associated sensation in the body.

        To whom did this thought arise to?

        A question,............ to which,............. if another thought arises as an answer.... ....the question remains intact.....

        ....as to whom did this "now-answer-thought" arise to?

        And so on.



        Thus the question can never be thought out of it's existence.



        But there is an ending of the question.........which can only be in the end of the "questioner".



        With the ending of the entity...........is the end of the sense of suffering..............but not necessarily the end of the events which prompted the entire hoopla.


        Thus,.......... relationships start, relationships end,

        fortunes arrive in the open palms,

        fortunes slip away from those very open palms, ..

        ..change happens, evolution happens...

        ....things happen, .............events occur.....

        .....none is seen as good or bad.


        All is holy.

        All is profound.

        All is appropriate.

        All is....as it is....
         
        ...and even the terms "holy", "profound", "appropriate".........drop away.


        Moment to moment to moment.
         
         
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 12:26 AM
        Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Unselfish Love

        Hello everyone,

        Something is really bothering me.  As our true natures, how do we
        express ourselves honestly with people?  I can just go with the flow. 
        But recently I had this loving awarenes, which I am, thrown back in my
        face in their time of anger.  It really hurt.

        I tried to be unselfish, and just be there for her, when she hugs me,
        and when she "kicks me in the balls".  But something is not right.  Why
        do I feel hurt?

        This must be some bad ass karma I was thinking.

        What is unselfish love?  I thought I knew.

        Namaste
        JJM




        May All Beings be Happy, be Peaceful, be Liberated from Misery.

        Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

      • Sandeep
        Hi RM, ... From: Rushikant Mehta To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 1:52 AM Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 2, 2005
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          Hi RM,
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 1:52 AM
          Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Unselfish Love

          Truth, very well said !
           
          But how can one stop coloring the events with 'should/should not' ?
           
          In the very sense of the "how" is the sense of "should". 
           
          In the recognition....... is the cessation.
           
           

          Just by thinking & wishing a million times that I don't want to do it ? Or determining that I'll NOT do it ?
           
          No difference between the two.
           
          Determining, intending, thinking, wishing......song and dance of the sense of the entity.
           
          Nope, the conscious mind may want & decide not to add color to an event but the habit of doing that is so deeply & intensly ingrained in the subconscious that the moment the event occurs, it overpowers the intellect & reasoning of the poor conscious & before one knows, reaction takes place. When this is happening it is nearly impossible to get detached from it & witness it from a distance.
           
           
           
          Detachment cannot be "got".
           
          Witnessing cannot be "achieved".
           
           
          Sure, ..........the sense of entity believes that having done, X, Y, Z for so many years, it is now detached, it is now in witnessing mode.
           
           
           
           
          Here is how meditation helps.
           
          That which helps is not meditation.
           
           
           If one sits alone doing NOTHING, the first thing that props up in mind is the memory of the most powerful passonate event that has taken place recently or before. And mind starts coloring it with thoughts & wishes. One starts rolling over in them  just as if the event is reocurring even though the other party concerned is not physically present to cause or contribute to it. Along with that flood of emotions, a number of sensations start arising in the body. With little practice & patience one can observe these sensations. And lo ! that mental act of observing helps to stand, bear & witness that flow arising & intensifying but slowly & surely waning & withering away! With every re-run of this observation, the strength of that event's influence in the mind also weakens till it completely passes out. Very soon, one can experience that the mind is absolutely free of the after-effects of that event.
           
           
           
          And yet the sense of a mind ......now believed to be free of the after-effects of the event..........persists.
           
          Rather than looking to free the mind, see what is the nature of the assumption, that is held to be the mind.
           
          Is not the mind an inference arising from a selectiveness ........from among the mnemonic cells of past experiences?
           
          Don't rush to agree or disagree.
           
           
           
           So much so that its memory no longer pains. If by chance the other person confronts again, the mind being bereft of all negativities surrounding that person, one can cooly face the reality & hit the solution to the relationship tangle.
          Inspired by the result, as one practices more & more,one can eradicate all accumulated 'sanskaars' of innumerable events, by developing this attitude of detached witnessing & can then remain cool, unhazed, unfazed in any future event too. 
           
          An attitude of detached witnessing is still an identification.
           
          The state of detached witnessing (to use some words, some terms)....
           
          ....is the absence of the presence of all identifications......
           
          .....AND.......... the absence of the absence of the presence of all identifications
           
           
          If meditation cannot help to this end, nothing else can.
           
           
          Indeed.
           
          The issue is not whether meditation can help or not.
           
          Or that X, Y, Z can help in place of meditation.
           
          The issue, (so to say).........is to apperceive whether there is anything which needs to be helped.
           
          So long there is "something" which needs to be helped,..........there persists the sense of the entity for which is relevant, for which is significant.....that "something which needs to be helped".
           
          So long there persists a sense of entitification..............meditation has yet to happen.
           
           
           
           
           
          And if meditation cannot help to this end, it is anything but meditation !
           
          The meditative state is not a means to another end, .......an end separated from it.
           
           
          The meditative state is the end of the sense of a "meditator" and thus end of the very concept of meditation.
           
          The meditative state does not even admit the concept of the meditative state.
           
           
           
           
           

        • Rushikant Mehta
          Absolutely true, Sandeep, absolutely. But not relatively. What u say appears to be a view of the Enlightened one, who has reached where realization dawns
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 3, 2005
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            Absolutely true, Sandeep, absolutely.

            But not relatively.

            What u say appears to be a view of the ' Enlightened '
            one, who has reached where realization dawns that
            there is nowhere to go, nowhere to reach; where
            'entitification' drops, meditator vanishes in the
            meditative state & perhaps nothing but bliss pervades.

            And being in that mode u probably admit not even
            theoratically, of any mundane mortal existence
            suffering from ignorance of non-entitification ! To
            such an ignorant mortal like me you sound more like
            philosophizing that leads to pedantry more than
            enlightenment.

            U r right but what u say doesn't help me realize what
            u do, may be just because I think it is so for me.

            You may like to pity me or sympathise with me or laugh
            on me or....just dump it in your nothingness !













            --- Sandeep <sandeep1960@...> wrote:

            > Hi RM,
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Rushikant Mehta
            > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 1:52 AM
            > Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America]
            > Unselfish Love
            >
            >
            > Truth, very well said !
            >
            > But how can one stop coloring the events with
            > 'should/should not' ?
            >
            > In the very sense of the "how" is the sense of
            > "should".
            >
            > In the recognition....... is the cessation.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Just by thinking & wishing a million times that I
            > don't want to do it ? Or determining that I'll NOT
            > do it ?
            >
            > No difference between the two.
            >
            > Determining, intending, thinking,
            > wishing......song and dance of the sense of the
            > entity.
            >
            > Nope, the conscious mind may want & decide not to
            > add color to an event but the habit of doing that is
            > so deeply & intensly ingrained in the subconscious
            > that the moment the event occurs, it overpowers the
            > intellect & reasoning of the poor conscious & before
            > one knows, reaction takes place. When this is
            > happening it is nearly impossible to get detached
            > from it & witness it from a distance.
            >
            >
            >
            > Detachment cannot be "got".
            >
            > Witnessing cannot be "achieved".
            >
            >
            > Sure, ..........the sense of entity believes that
            > having done, X, Y, Z for so many years, it is now
            > detached, it is now in witnessing mode.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Here is how meditation helps.
            >
            > That which helps is not meditation.
            >
            >
            > If one sits alone doing NOTHING, the first thing
            > that props up in mind is the memory of the most
            > powerful passonate event that has taken place
            > recently or before. And mind starts coloring it with
            > thoughts & wishes. One starts rolling over in them
            > just as if the event is reocurring even though the
            > other party concerned is not physically present to
            > cause or contribute to it. Along with that flood of
            > emotions, a number of sensations start arising in
            > the body. With little practice & patience one can
            > observe these sensations. And lo ! that mental act
            > of observing helps to stand, bear & witness that
            > flow arising & intensifying but slowly & surely
            > waning & withering away! With every re-run of this
            > observation, the strength of that event's influence
            > in the mind also weakens till it completely passes
            > out. Very soon, one can experience that the mind is
            > absolutely free of the after-effects of that event.
            >
            >
            >
            > And yet the sense of a mind ......now believed to
            > be free of the after-effects of the
            > event..........persists.
            >
            > Rather than looking to free the mind, see what is
            > the nature of the assumption, that is held to be the
            > mind.
            >
            > Is not the mind an inference arising from a
            > selectiveness ........from among the mnemonic cells
            > of past experiences?
            >
            > Don't rush to agree or disagree.
            >
            >
            >
            > So much so that its memory no longer pains. If by
            > chance the other person confronts again, the mind
            > being bereft of all negativities surrounding that
            > person, one can cooly face the reality & hit the
            > solution to the relationship tangle.
            > Inspired by the result, as one practices more &
            > more,one can eradicate all accumulated 'sanskaars'
            > of innumerable events, by developing this attitude
            > of detached witnessing & can then remain cool,
            > unhazed, unfazed in any future event too.
            >
            > An attitude of detached witnessing is still an
            > identification.
            >
            > The state of detached witnessing (to use some
            > words, some terms)....
            >
            > ....is the absence of the presence of all
            > identifications......
            >
            > .....AND.......... the absence of the absence of
            > the presence of all identifications
            >
            >
            > If meditation cannot help to this end, nothing
            > else can.
            >
            >
            > Indeed.
            >
            > The issue is not whether meditation can help or
            > not.
            >
            > Or that X, Y, Z can help in place of meditation.
            >
            > The issue, (so to say).........is to apperceive
            > whether there is anything which needs to be helped.
            >
            > So long there is "something" which needs to be
            > helped,..........there persists the sense of the
            > entity for which is relevant, for which is
            > significant.....that "something which needs to be
            > helped".
            >
            > So long there persists a sense of
            > entitification..............meditation has yet to
            > happen.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > And if meditation cannot help to this end, it is
            > anything but meditation !
            >
            > The meditative state is not a means to another
            > end, .......an end separated from it.
            >
            >
            > The meditative state is the end of the sense of a
            > "meditator" and thus end of the very concept of
            > meditation.
            >
            > The meditative state does not even admit the
            > concept of the meditative state.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


            May All Beings be Happy, be Peaceful, be Liberated from Misery.

            Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
          • Sandeep
            A prevailing hint of a sense of distinction.............aka the relative in contrast to the Absolute........ ......lo- behold the entity and the co-dependent
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 3, 2005
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              A prevailing hint of a sense of distinction.............aka the relative in contrast to the Absolute........
               
              ......lo- behold the entity and the co-dependent world of that entity, teeming with concepts.
               
               
              No........... I do not pity you or sympathise with you or laugh at you ..
               
              Nor do I just dump you in my nothingness.
               
              There is neither my nothingness, ..........nor a you to be dumped.
               
              There is only the infinite nuances of this moment, ............one of which happenes to be this dialogue.....happening between two apparently separated and discrete biological objects.
               
              Two manifest conditioned biological objects,.......... as images........which themselves are nuances of the same moment.
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 11:47 PM
              Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Unselfish Love

              Absolutely true, Sandeep, absolutely.

              But not relatively.

              What u say appears to be a view of the ' Enlightened '
              one, who has reached where realization dawns that
              there is nowhere to go, nowhere to reach; where
              'entitification' drops, meditator vanishes in the
              meditative state & perhaps nothing but bliss pervades.

              And being in that mode u probably admit not even
              theoratically, of any mundane mortal existence
              suffering from ignorance of non-entitification ! To
              such an ignorant mortal like me  you sound more like
              philosophizing that leads to pedantry more than
              enlightenment.

              U r right but what u say doesn't help me realize what
              u do, may be just because I think it is so for me.

              You may like to pity me or sympathise with me or laugh
              on me or....just dump it in your nothingness !


            • Rushikant Mehta
              It s difficult to disagree & also to empathise. Amin. ... May All Beings be Happy, be Peaceful, be Liberated from Misery. Send instant messages to your online
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 3, 2005
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                It's difficult to disagree & also to empathise.

                Amin.




                --- Sandeep <sandeep1960@...> wrote:

                >
                > A prevailing hint of a sense of
                > distinction.............aka the relative in contrast
                > to the Absolute........
                >
                > ......lo- behold the entity and the co-dependent
                > world of that entity, teeming with concepts.
                >
                >
                > No........... I do not pity you or sympathise with
                > you or laugh at you ..
                >
                > Nor do I just dump you in my nothingness.
                >
                > There is neither my nothingness, ..........nor a you
                > to be dumped.
                >
                > There is only the infinite nuances of this moment,
                > ............one of which happenes to be this
                > dialogue.....happening between two apparently
                > separated and discrete biological objects.
                >
                > Two manifest conditioned biological
                > objects,.......... as images........which themselves
                > are nuances of the same moment.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Rushikant Mehta
                > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 11:47 PM
                > Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America]
                > Unselfish Love
                >
                >
                > Absolutely true, Sandeep, absolutely.
                >
                > But not relatively.
                >
                > What u say appears to be a view of the '
                > Enlightened '
                > one, who has reached where realization dawns that
                > there is nowhere to go, nowhere to reach; where
                > 'entitification' drops, meditator vanishes in the
                > meditative state & perhaps nothing but bliss
                > pervades.
                >
                > And being in that mode u probably admit not even
                > theoratically, of any mundane mortal existence
                > suffering from ignorance of non-entitification !
                > To
                > such an ignorant mortal like me you sound more
                > like
                > philosophizing that leads to pedantry more than
                > enlightenment.
                >
                > U r right but what u say doesn't help me realize
                > what
                > u do, may be just because I think it is so for me.
                >
                > You may like to pity me or sympathise with me or
                > laugh
                > on me or....just dump it in your nothingness !
                >
                >
                >


                May All Beings be Happy, be Peaceful, be Liberated from Misery.

                Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
              • prakki surya
                dear friends Everybody aspires the highest fruit through the easiest way. The easiest way is the path of knowledge, which does not require any sacrifice. The
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 4, 2005
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                  dear friends

                   

                  Everybody aspires the highest fruit through the easiest way.  The easiest way is the path of knowledge, which does not require any sacrifice.  The highest fruit is to become the very Lord right now from this moment onwards.  They like the preacher to say that they should just come out of their house to receive a heap of infinite treasure lying down before the doors.   Anybody will be happiest to receive the news that, he has become eligible to join the post of district collector in whatever stage of his study to the I.A.S. Examination he is present.  The post is offered to the fresh student who just joined the I.A.S. Course and also to the student who passed the I.A.S. Examination.  Both are equally eligible now itself to join the same post.  If the preacher says that already both have joined the post and that they have forgotten this truth, now all the effort is only to recognize that they are the district collectors.  This gives the idea that there is no need of any future effort.  This is the mis-interpreted philosophy of monoism (Advaita) of Sankara. 

                   

                  Every body is very much attracted to this path.  The influence of this path is so much that no body is coming out of this illusion.  It is so sweet that they are unable to leave this state.  The basic mis-concept is to think that the self is the super-self.  Self is any living being in this world.  Super self is the Lord.  They just find one common point i.e., the pure awareness (Chit) exists in both.  The Prime Minister and his peon have several common points like pure awareness, similar form of external human body etc. Both eat and sleep similarly.  Both are married and both have children.  Because of these common points can you treat the Prime Minister and His peon as one and the same?  Based on one common point i.e., pure awareness, how can you say that self is super-self?  Veda says that by the order of the Lord, the Sun is shining.  In summer due to sunstroke a human being is killed.  Let the Advaita scholar stand against the sunstroke and order the Sun not to kill him. 

                   

                  When the disciples of Sankara thought that they are also the Lord, Sankara swallowed the molten lead and asked the disciples to do the same.  Then they fell on the feet of Sankara.  Then Sankara told "Shivah Kevaloham", which means that only He is Shiva.  The word Kevala (only) is important here.  Sankara while taking bath in the ocean at Puri told "Oh! Lord! Though the qualitative identity is in between us, the quantitative difference exists.  The water is common in both the sea and the wave like the pure awareness in the soul and super soul.  But the quantitative difference exists and one should not forget that the entire wave is in the sea but the entire sea is not in the wave".  This is stated as a message for the sake of ordinary soul.  These Advaita Scholars filter all the differentiating points and finally get the common point filtered down into the beaker as the filtrate.  The differentiating points are the residue on the filter paper and the filtered common point is in the downward beaker.  They see only the beaker but not the filter paper.  Therefore, the whole spiritual path is twisted and confused almost all the human beings. 

                   

                  Seeing this situation the same Sankara came as Ramanuja and Madhva and clearly differentiated the super self from the self.  Some devotees have come out of this illusion but several people are still lingering there only due to their unreasonable and unimaginable ambition for the fruit.  Unless this basic concept is realized, all the stages of the spiritual effort cannot be healthy.  The poison injected in the foundation has spread all over the upstairs of the construction.  Your question has already assumed that self is super self.  You have no doubt about that basic concept.  Nobody likes to touch that basic concept.  If that basic concept is analysed the entire castle of their ambition will collapse.  They cannot tolerate to loose the highest fruit, which was captured by them by the easiest way of self-realization.  Now for such self-realization, you are asking whether the meditation or the study of scriptures is the path.  When the goal itself is absent what is the use of the path?  It is something like asking whether one should pass eighth standard or ninth standard to become the district collector.  Neither of these two standards can give you the post.  By passing those two standards one can get the post of a peon.  One has to pass the I.A.S. Examination for which he is eligible after passing degree examination, which is far from both those standards.  These advaita scholars argue that the peon is the collector.  They do not accept the existence of any higher post other than the peon. 

                   

                  The reason for this basic misunderstanding is the word "Brahman".  As per Sanskrit grammar this word comes from the root "Bruhi-Vruddhau", which means that the root meaning of this word is greatness.  Anything that is great can be called as Brahman.  The soul is the most precious and greatest item of the creation and is called as Para Prakruti, which means the greatest of all the created items.  The soul is included as a part of the creation (Prakruti) and is called as Para Prakruti as said in Gita (Prakritim Viddhi me paraamÂ….).  It is not Creator.  If it is Creator it cannot be called as Prakruti.  It is only the modification of food during evolution as said in Veda (Annat PurushahÂ…).  The same inert energy called as electro magnetic radiation working through a special unknown technology is life.  The materials of the technology are known and the working inert energy is also known.  But the special technology in which it works is not known and therefore, life energy is not synthesized so far.  Only God knows that technology. 

                  at the lotus feet of shri datta swami

                  surya



                  Rushikant Mehta <rushi_kant@...> wrote:
                  Absolutely true, Sandeep, absolutely.

                  But not relatively.

                  What u say appears to be a view of the ' Enlightened '
                  one, who has reached where realization dawns that
                  there is nowhere to go, nowhere to reach; where
                  'entitification' drops, meditator vanishes in the
                  meditative state & perhaps nothing but bliss pervades.

                  And being in that mode u probably admit not even
                  theoratically, of any mundane mortal existence
                  suffering from ignorance of non-entitification ! To
                  such an ignorant mortal like me  you sound more like
                  philosophizing that leads to pedantry more than
                  enlightenment.

                  U r right but what u say doesn't help me realize what
                  u do, may be just because I think it is so for me.

                  You may like to pity me or sympathise with me or laugh
                  on me or....just dump it in your nothingness !













                  --- Sandeep <sandeep1960@...> wrote:

                  > Hi RM,
                  >
                  >   ----- Original Message -----
                  >   From: Rushikant Mehta
                  >   To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                  >   Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 1:52 AM
                  >   Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America]
                  > Unselfish Love
                  >
                  >
                  >   Truth, very well said !
                  >
                  >   But how can one stop coloring the events with
                  > 'should/should not' ?
                  >
                  >   In the very sense of the "how" is the sense of
                  > "should".
                  >
                  >   In the recognition....... is the cessation.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >   Just by thinking & wishing a million times that I
                  > don't want to do it ? Or determining that I'll NOT
                  > do it ?
                  >
                  >   No difference between the two.
                  >
                  >   Determining, intending, thinking,
                  > wishing......song and dance of the sense of the
                  > entity.
                  >
                  >   Nope, the conscious mind may want & decide not to
                  > add color to an event but the habit of doing that is
                  > so deeply & intensly ingrained in the subconscious
                  > that the moment the event occurs, it overpowers the
                  > intellect & reasoning of the poor conscious & before
                  > one knows, reaction takes place. When this is
                  > happening it is nearly impossible to get detached
                  > from it & witness it from a distance.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >   Detachment cannot be "got".
                  >
                  >   Witnessing cannot be "achieved".
                  >
                  >
                  >   Sure, ..........the sense of entity believes that
                  > having done, X, Y, Z for so many years, it is now
                  > detached, it is now in witnessing mode.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >   Here is how meditation helps.
                  >
                  >   That which helps is not meditation.
                  >
                  >
                  >    If one sits alone doing NOTHING, the first thing
                  > that props up in mind is the memory of the most
                  > powerful passonate event that has taken place
                  > recently or before. And mind starts coloring it with
                  > thoughts & wishes. One starts rolling over in them
                  > just as if the event is reocurring even though the
                  > other party concerned is not physically present to
                  > cause or contribute to it. Along with that flood of
                  > emotions, a number of sensations start arising in
                  > the body. With little practice & patience one can
                  > observe these sensations. And lo ! that mental act
                  > of observing helps to stand, bear & witness that
                  > flow arising & intensifying but slowly & surely
                  > waning & withering away! With every re-run of this
                  > observation, the strength of that event's influence
                  > in the mind also weakens till it completely passes
                  > out. Very soon, one can experience that the mind is
                  > absolutely free of the after-effects of that event.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >   And yet the sense of a mind ......now believed to
                  > be free of the after-effects of the
                  > event..........persists.
                  >
                  >   Rather than looking to free the mind, see what is
                  > the nature of the assumption, that is held to be the
                  > mind.
                  >
                  >   Is not the mind an inference arising from a
                  > selectiveness ........from among the mnemonic cells
                  > of past experiences?
                  >
                  >   Don't rush to agree or disagree.
                  >
                  >   
                  >
                  >    So much so that its memory no longer pains. If by
                  > chance the other person confronts again, the mind
                  > being bereft of all negativities surrounding that
                  > person, one can cooly face the reality & hit the
                  > solution to the relationship tangle.
                  >   Inspired by the result, as one practices more &
                  > more,one can eradicate all accumulated 'sanskaars'
                  > of innumerable events, by developing this attitude
                  > of detached witnessing & can then remain cool,
                  > unhazed, unfazed in any future event too.
                  >
                  >   An attitude of detached witnessing is still an
                  > identification.
                  >
                  >   The state of detached witnessing (to use some
                  > words, some terms)....
                  >
                  >   ....is the absence of the presence of all
                  > identifications......
                  >
                  >   .....AND.......... the absence of the absence of
                  > the presence of all identifications
                  >
                  >
                  >   If meditation cannot help to this end, nothing
                  > else can.
                  >
                  >
                  >   Indeed.
                  >
                  >   The issue is not whether meditation can help or
                  > not.
                  >
                  >   Or that X, Y, Z can help in place of meditation.
                  >
                  >   The issue, (so to say).........is to apperceive
                  > whether there is anything which needs to be helped.
                  >
                  >   So long there is "something" which needs to be
                  > helped,..........there persists the sense of the
                  > entity for which is relevant, for which is
                  > significant.....that "something which needs to be
                  > helped".
                  >
                  >   So long there persists a sense of
                  > entitification..............meditation has yet to
                  > happen.
                  >
                  >
                  >   
                  >
                  >
                  >   And if meditation cannot help to this end, it is
                  > anything but meditation !
                  >
                  >   The meditative state is not a means to another
                  > end, .......an end separated from it.
                  >
                  >
                  >   The meditative state is the end of the sense of a
                  > "meditator" and thus end of the very concept of
                  > meditation.
                  >
                  >   The meditative state does not even admit the
                  > concept of the meditative state.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  May All Beings be Happy, be Peaceful, be Liberated from Misery.

                  Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com


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                • blueoceantiger
                  ... --respectfully, it is entirely possible to have empathy for the suffering of someone and at the same time not buy into the actions or views that support
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 4, 2005
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                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Rushikant Mehta
                    <rushi_kant@y...> wrote:
                    > It's difficult to disagree & also to empathise.
                    >
                    > Amin.

                    --respectfully, it is entirely possible to have
                    empathy for the suffering of someone and at the
                    same time not buy into the actions or views that
                    support the pain. some who come to see me are in
                    great turmoil due to their religious beliefs or
                    their addictions, which in their minds limit
                    their options. when one understands what has led
                    a person to where they are, it is entirely possible
                    to empathize without condoning behaviour.


                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- Sandeep <sandeep1960@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > > A prevailing hint of a sense of
                    > > distinction.............aka the relative in contrast
                    > > to the Absolute........
                    > >
                    > > ......lo- behold the entity and the co-dependent
                    > > world of that entity, teeming with concepts.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > No........... I do not pity you or sympathise with
                    > > you or laugh at you ..
                    > >
                    > > Nor do I just dump you in my nothingness.
                    > >
                    > > There is neither my nothingness, ..........nor a you
                    > > to be dumped.
                    > >
                    > > There is only the infinite nuances of this moment,
                    > > ............one of which happenes to be this
                    > > dialogue.....happening between two apparently
                    > > separated and discrete biological objects.
                    > >
                    > > Two manifest conditioned biological
                    > > objects,.......... as images........which themselves
                    > > are nuances of the same moment.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: Rushikant Mehta
                    > > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 11:47 PM
                    > > Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America]
                    > > Unselfish Love
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Absolutely true, Sandeep, absolutely.
                    > >
                    > > But not relatively.
                    > >
                    > > What u say appears to be a view of the '
                    > > Enlightened '
                    > > one, who has reached where realization dawns that
                    > > there is nowhere to go, nowhere to reach; where
                    > > 'entitification' drops, meditator vanishes in the
                    > > meditative state & perhaps nothing but bliss
                    > > pervades.
                    > >
                    > > And being in that mode u probably admit not even
                    > > theoratically, of any mundane mortal existence
                    > > suffering from ignorance of non-entitification !
                    > > To
                    > > such an ignorant mortal like me you sound more
                    > > like
                    > > philosophizing that leads to pedantry more than
                    > > enlightenment.
                    > >
                    > > U r right but what u say doesn't help me realize
                    > > what
                    > > u do, may be just because I think it is so for me.
                    > >
                    > > You may like to pity me or sympathise with me or
                    > > laugh
                    > > on me or....just dump it in your nothingness !
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > May All Beings be Happy, be Peaceful, be Liberated from Misery.
                    >
                    > Send instant messages to your online friends
                    http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                  • jasonjamesmorgan
                    Hello, Thank you all for the responses. So... Of all the groups, people, centres, etc, I seem to come across a distinct difference in the interactions of
                    Message 9 of 10 , Aug 6, 2005
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                      Hello,

                      Thank you all for the responses.

                      So... Of all the groups, people, centres, etc, I seem to come across
                      a distinct difference in the interactions of nothingness as
                      nothingness.

                      Namely, compassion. Many non-dual types, seem to me to arrogent and
                      condesending. They seem to laugh at human suffering. They
                      say, "Hey, non-duality is so simple, just drop everything" If it was
                      that easy for many humans, would they not all awaken in a flash?
                      Many of these types dont realize that dropping all concepts, is a
                      concept in and of itself. Just another thorn, to remove the thorn of
                      ignorance.

                      Than we have what I call real enlightend beings. Those that have
                      realized, and yet sympathize with those who have not. These types
                      dont seem to hide their heads under the sand like and osterach.
                      These dont see nothing wrong with leading someone to non-duality.
                      Unlike the former who will just say "what pain? what ego? what
                      seperation? You are delusional, your pain is irrelivant to me?".

                      So I wonder about this. Ramana would say this is just parabdha. The
                      enlightend ones, will just let the body go like a runaway train. The
                      avatar will take control of the train, in full realization, and help
                      humanity.

                      Does anyone see this difference? Was not compassion, empathy, the
                      traits of all true realized masters. Jesus, Guatama, Ramana,
                      Ramakrishna etc. etc.

                      It seems to me these two distinctions are like this. Both are
                      realized.
                      1. The being, refuses to speak of duality, tries to be non-dual.
                      But dont realize that non-duality is beyond words. They dont
                      identify with their own egos, so how could they possibly feel others
                      pain.
                      These people seem scared. Scared that using their ego in a
                      benovelent manner, will drag them back into ignorance.

                      2. The being, who acts in accordance with qualified non-dualism.
                      They do not identify with their ego, but they are not scarred to use
                      the ego. They see the suffering of others, and empathize. They are
                      love, and they use the ego to express it.

                      So, I feel blessed to have such good teachers, who have explained
                      three things to me.

                      1. duality. The first step of spiritual awakeing. The devotee and
                      the diety. The relative and the absolute. They strive for something
                      higher, not yet knowing that what they strive for is non-duality.

                      2. Qualified non-dualism. Realizing our true nature, the awakend
                      one, sees that his ego is a part of a universal ego. That their true
                      nature is non-dual, but as long as their is awareness of ego, it is
                      qualified. Savikalpa samadhi. These realize all is consciousness,
                      but are honest eneogh to acknoledge the duality in oneness.

                      3. Non-dualism. This is beyond words. It cannot be explained, only
                      experienced. It is beyond pure awarenes of ego. It is the
                      difference between being sugar and tasting sugar. It is called
                      nirvikalpa samadhi. There is no awareness of anything. Not bliss,
                      not love, not emptiness, not nothingness, not anything. It is
                      neither everything, or no-thing. It is neither, love nor hate. It
                      is neither being, or non-being. Even the word non-dual implies the
                      opposite of dual. That is why scripture calls it THAT.

                      Anyways, thank you for all the responses. I have dealt with these
                      two types of people for years. I play with both. But I prefer the
                      honest ones. It is what it is. If you are reading this, it is
                      qualified non-dualsim. No-thing has an ego. If you did not, you
                      would not be reading this.

                      So, personally, I feel that compassion is the only teaching/teacher.
                      If you cannot identify with the ignorant person, you are of little
                      help.

                      Namaste
                      Om Namah Shivaya
                      All love is you, in me.
                      Jason James Morgan
                    • Era
                      ... Hi Sandeep, I want to put this up at the mashpit of GR love, Karta ... .
                      Message 10 of 10 , Aug 15, 2005
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                        >

                        Hi Sandeep, I want to put this
                        up at the mashpit of GR

                        love, Karta



                        > A prevailing hint of a sense of distinction.............aka the relative in contrast to the Absolute........
                        >
                        > ......lo- behold the entity and the co-dependent world of that entity, teeming with concepts.
                        >
                        >
                        > No........... I do not pity you or sympathise with you or laugh at you ..
                        >
                        > Nor do I just dump you in my nothingness.
                        >
                        > There is neither my nothingness, ..........nor a you to be dumped.
                        >
                        > There is only the infinite nuances of this moment, ............one of which happenes to be this dialogue.....happening between two apparently separated and discrete biological objects.
                        >
                        > Two manifest conditioned biological objects,.......... as images........which themselves are nuances of the same moment.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Absolutely true, Sandeep, absolutely.
                        >
                        > But not relatively.
                        >
                        > What u say appears to be a view of the ' Enlightened '
                        > one, who has reached where realization dawns that
                        > there is nowhere to go, nowhere to reach; where
                        > 'entitification' drops, meditator vanishes in the
                        > meditative state & perhaps nothing but bliss pervades.
                        >
                        > And being in that mode u probably admit not even
                        > theoratically, of any mundane mortal existence
                        > suffering from ignorance of non-entitification ! To
                        > such an ignorant mortal like me you sound more like
                        > philosophizing that leads to pedantry more than
                        > enlightenment.
                        >
                        > U r right but what u say doesn't help me realize what
                        > u do, may be just because I think it is so for me.
                        >
                        > You may like to pity me or sympathise with me or laugh
                        > on me or....just dump it in your nothingness !


                        .
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