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Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Monk ebusiness

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  • Rushikant Mehta
    Nop, not kidding, very seriously, Jody, I just said, & meant that to know the source of that mystical sound of Jeff (!), one need not be a monk outwardly, &
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 5, 2005
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      Nop, not kidding, very seriously, Jody, I just said, & meant that to know the source of that mystical sound of Jeff (!), one need not be a monk outwardly, & nor a ( even self-forced )celibate. But do ya ever think, bliss can be a more sublime source of pleasure than lust ? And so higher that lust attracts no more ?
      Rushikant.

      jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Flou"
      <tom@f...> wrote:
      > Dear Jody.
      > you wrote:
      >
      > > Sorry guys.  Not to take anything away from
      > > Tom or any other monks, but being a monk has
      > > as much to do with self-realization as my
      > > dog's ass.
      > > While calming the mind is very helpful to the
      > > spiritual aspirant, it can be done in a number
      > > of ways that don't include celibacy.
      > > There have been many individuals who have come
      > > to self-realization without first being monks.
      > > Furthermore, one man's negative inputs are another's
      > > royal road to wisdom.
      > > So, while it may be entirely appropriate for some
      > > to become monks, for others it would be poison and
      > > completely useless to do so.  There is no right way,
      > > or even better way for everyone.
      > > Do as thou wilt as long as nobody is getting hurt.
      > >
      > > --jody.
      > >
      >
      > We were having a bit of fun here, Jody.
      > No intention of hurting anybody.

      Of course not, Tom.  I was making a reply to Rushikant's
      assertions:

      > Yep, one must be a monk, not for hearing the sound but for knowing
      > its source.But for the one who has attained inner monkhood,
      > meditated, cleansed the mind of all negative inputs, even without
      > entering the order of the monks, finds the doors opening without
      > knocking & the 'Source' eager to reveal itself ! Kudos to him !
      > Rushikant.

      I didn't read this as part of the joke, but as a
      contention about the necessity of celibacy.

      > Jeff´s joke just made me write a
      > humerous(?) reply.

      And I was not responding to either you or Jeff.
      However, I did feel the need to let you know that
      I have respect for those who make the choice to
      be monks, even while I have no respect for the
      idea that such is a spiritual necessity.

      > No need to drag your dog into this.

      I drag my dog into everything, Tom.

      > However clever he/she is, however
      > famous in these forums.....;-)
      > ...I don´t think dogs understand humor,
      > they are waaay too serious.
      > Playfull: Yes, but humor: No way.
      > What about you?
      >
      > Tom

      You know, sometimes I am a bit humor impaired,
      especially when my buttons gets pushed.  And
      one of the things which pushes them is the idea
      that celibacy is necessary for realization to
      occur.  While I realize it's traditional to say
      such things, I'm absolutely sure that celibacy
      is optional rather than mandatory.

      Perhaps Rushikant was kidding too.  If that's
      the case I've stuck my foot in it again.  It's
      not the first time, I can promise you that.

      --jody.




      May All Beings be Happy, be Peaceful, be Liberated from Misery.

      Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

    • jodyrrr
      ... One can lust for bliss just as much as they lust for sex. Is such a lust better? ... http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 6, 2005
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Rushikant Mehta
        <rushi_kant@y...> wrote:
        > Nop, not kidding, very seriously, Jody, I just said, & meant
        > that to know the source of that mystical sound of Jeff (!),
        > one need not be a monk outwardly, & nor a ( even self-forced
        > celibate. But do ya ever think, bliss can be a more sublime
        > source of pleasure than lust ? And so higher that lust attracts
        > no more ?
        > Rushikant.

        One can lust for bliss just as much as they
        lust for sex. Is such a lust better?

        > jodyrrr <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Flou"
        > <tom@f...> wrote:
        > > Dear Jody.
        > > you wrote:
        > >
        > > > Sorry guys. Not to take anything away from
        > > > Tom or any other monks, but being a monk has
        > > > as much to do with self-realization as my
        > > > dog's ass.
        > > > While calming the mind is very helpful to the
        > > > spiritual aspirant, it can be done in a number
        > > > of ways that don't include celibacy.
        > > > There have been many individuals who have come
        > > > to self-realization without first being monks.
        > > > Furthermore, one man's negative inputs are another's
        > > > royal road to wisdom.
        > > > So, while it may be entirely appropriate for some
        > > > to become monks, for others it would be poison and
        > > > completely useless to do so. There is no right way,
        > > > or even better way for everyone.
        > > > Do as thou wilt as long as nobody is getting hurt.
        > > >
        > > > --jody.
        > > >
        > >
        > > We were having a bit of fun here, Jody.
        > > No intention of hurting anybody.
        >
        > Of course not, Tom. I was making a reply to Rushikant's
        > assertions:
        >
        > > Yep, one must be a monk, not for hearing the sound but for knowing
        > > its source.But for the one who has attained inner monkhood,
        > > meditated, cleansed the mind of all negative inputs, even without
        > > entering the order of the monks, finds the doors opening without
        > > knocking & the 'Source' eager to reveal itself ! Kudos to him !
        > > Rushikant.
        >
        > I didn't read this as part of the joke, but as a
        > contention about the necessity of celibacy.
        >
        > > Jeff´s joke just made me write a
        > > humerous(?) reply.
        >
        > And I was not responding to either you or Jeff.
        > However, I did feel the need to let you know that
        > I have respect for those who make the choice to
        > be monks, even while I have no respect for the
        > idea that such is a spiritual necessity.
        >
        > > No need to drag your dog into this.
        >
        > I drag my dog into everything, Tom.
        >
        > > However clever he/she is, however
        > > famous in these forums.....;-)
        > > ...I don´t think dogs understand humor,
        > > they are waaay too serious.
        > > Playfull: Yes, but humor: No way.
        > > What about you?
        > >
        > > Tom
        >
        > You know, sometimes I am a bit humor impaired,
        > especially when my buttons gets pushed. And
        > one of the things which pushes them is the idea
        > that celibacy is necessary for realization to
        > occur. While I realize it's traditional to say
        > such things, I'm absolutely sure that celibacy
        > is optional rather than mandatory.
        >
        > Perhaps Rushikant was kidding too. If that's
        > the case I've stuck my foot in it again. It's
        > not the first time, I can promise you that.
        >
        > --jody.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meditationsocietyofamerica/
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        >
        >
        >
        > May All Beings be Happy, be Peaceful, be Liberated from Misery.
        > Send instant messages to your online friends
        http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
      • Rushikant Mehta
        Is it not that bliss dawns only when one goes beyond the power of lust for anything , including bliss ? Hen or egg ? jodyrrr wrote:--- In
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 6, 2005
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          Is it not that bliss dawns only when one goes beyond the power of lust for anything , including bliss ? Hen or egg ?

          jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Rushikant Mehta
          <rushi_kant@y...> wrote:
          > Nop, not kidding, very seriously, Jody, I just said, & meant
          > that to know the source of that mystical sound of Jeff (!),
          > one need not be a monk outwardly, & nor a ( even self-forced
          > celibate. But do ya ever think, bliss can be a more sublime
          > source of pleasure than lust ? And so higher that lust attracts
          > no more ?
          > Rushikant.

          One can lust for bliss just as much as they
          lust for sex.  Is such a lust better?

          > jodyrrr <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Flou"
          > <tom@f...> wrote:
          > > Dear Jody.
          > > you wrote:
          > >
          > > > Sorry guys.  Not to take anything away from
          > > > Tom or any other monks, but being a monk has
          > > > as much to do with self-realization as my
          > > > dog's ass.
          > > > While calming the mind is very helpful to the
          > > > spiritual aspirant, it can be done in a number
          > > > of ways that don't include celibacy.
          > > > There have been many individuals who have come
          > > > to self-realization without first being monks.
          > > > Furthermore, one man's negative inputs are another's
          > > > royal road to wisdom.
          > > > So, while it may be entirely appropriate for some
          > > > to become monks, for others it would be poison and
          > > > completely useless to do so.  There is no right way,
          > > > or even better way for everyone.
          > > > Do as thou wilt as long as nobody is getting hurt.
          > > >
          > > > --jody.
          > > >
          > >
          > > We were having a bit of fun here, Jody.
          > > No intention of hurting anybody.
          >
          > Of course not, Tom.  I was making a reply to Rushikant's
          > assertions:
          >
          > > Yep, one must be a monk, not for hearing the sound but for knowing
          > > its source.But for the one who has attained inner monkhood,
          > > meditated, cleansed the mind of all negative inputs, even without
          > > entering the order of the monks, finds the doors opening without
          > > knocking & the 'Source' eager to reveal itself ! Kudos to him !
          > > Rushikant.
          >
          > I didn't read this as part of the joke, but as a
          > contention about the necessity of celibacy.
          >
          > > Jeff´s joke just made me write a
          > > humerous(?) reply.
          >
          > And I was not responding to either you or Jeff.
          > However, I did feel the need to let you know that
          > I have respect for those who make the choice to
          > be monks, even while I have no respect for the
          > idea that such is a spiritual necessity.
          >
          > > No need to drag your dog into this.
          >
          > I drag my dog into everything, Tom.
          >
          > > However clever he/she is, however
          > > famous in these forums.....;-)
          > > ...I don´t think dogs understand humor,
          > > they are waaay too serious.
          > > Playfull: Yes, but humor: No way.
          > > What about you?
          > >
          > > Tom
          >
          > You know, sometimes I am a bit humor impaired,
          > especially when my buttons gets pushed.  And
          > one of the things which pushes them is the idea
          > that celibacy is necessary for realization to
          > occur.  While I realize it's traditional to say
          > such things, I'm absolutely sure that celibacy
          > is optional rather than mandatory.
          >
          > Perhaps Rushikant was kidding too.  If that's
          > the case I've stuck my foot in it again.  It's
          > not the first time, I can promise you that.
          >
          > --jody.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >    To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meditationsocietyofamerica/
          >  
          >    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >  
          >    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          >
          >
          >
          > May All Beings be Happy, be Peaceful, be Liberated from Misery.
          > Send instant messages to your online friends
          http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com




          May All Beings be Happy, be Peaceful, be Liberated from Misery.

          Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

        • suman sk
          I will add here that the whole idea of mediatation and liberation is only to get a state of unattached dwelling where one is free from LUST,ANGER,GREED,FEAR
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 6, 2005
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            I will add here that the whole idea of mediatation and liberation is only to get a state of unattached dwelling where one is free from LUST,ANGER,GREED,FEAR AND EGO.
            The FACT is a FACT even when one tries to suit his or her own need.
            Thanks
            SK

            Rushikant Mehta <rushi_kant@...> wrote:
            Is it not that bliss dawns only when one goes beyond the power of lust for anything , including bliss ? Hen or egg ?

            jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Rushikant Mehta
            <rushi_kant@y...> wrote:
            > Nop, not kidding, very seriously, Jody, I just said, & meant
            > that to know the source of that mystical sound of Jeff (!),
            > one need not be a monk outwardly, & nor a ( even self-forced
            > celibate. But do ya ever think, bliss can be a more sublime
            > source of pleasure than lust ? And so higher that lust attracts
            > no more ?
            > Rushikant.

            One can lust for bliss just as much as they
            lust for sex.  Is such a lust better?

            > jodyrrr <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Flou"
            > <tom@f...> wrote:
            > > Dear Jody.
            > > you wrote:
            > >
            > > > Sorry guys.  Not to take anything away from
            > > > Tom or any other monks, but being a monk has
            > > > as much to do with self-realization as my
            > > > dog's ass.
            > > > While calming the mind is very helpful to the
            > > > spiritual aspirant, it can be done in a number
            > > > of ways that don't include celibacy.
            > > > There have been many individuals who have come
            > > > to self-realization without first being monks.
            > > > Furthermore, one man's negative inputs are another's
            > > > royal road to wisdom.
            > > > So, while it may be entirely appropriate for some
            > > > to become monks, for others it would be poison and
            > > > completely useless to do so.  There is no right way,
            > > > or even better way for everyone.
            > > > Do as thou wilt as long as nobody is getting hurt.
            > > >
            > > > --jody.
            > > >
            > >
            > > We were having a bit of fun here, Jody.
            > > No intention of hurting anybody.
            >
            > Of course not, Tom.  I was making a reply to Rushikant's
            > assertions:
            >
            > > Yep, one must be a monk, not for hearing the sound but for knowing
            > > its source.But for the one who has attained inner monkhood,
            > > meditated, cleansed the mind of all negative inputs, even without
            > > entering the order of the monks, finds the doors opening without
            > > knocking & the 'Source' eager to reveal itself ! Kudos to him !
            > > Rushikant.
            >
            > I didn't read this as part of the joke, but as a
            > contention about the necessity of celibacy.
            >
            > > Jeff´s joke just made me write a
            > > humerous(?) reply.
            >
            > And I was not responding to either you or Jeff.
            > However, I did feel the need to let you know that
            > I have respect for those who make the choice to
            > be monks, even while I have no respect for the
            > idea that such is a spiritual necessity.
            >
            > > No need to drag your dog into this.
            >
            > I drag my dog into everything, Tom.
            >
            > > However clever he/she is, however
            > > famous in these forums.....;-)
            > > ...I don´t think dogs understand humor,
            > > they are waaay too serious.
            > > Playfull: Yes, but humor: No way.
            > > What about you?
            > >
            > > Tom
            >
            > You know, sometimes I am a bit humor impaired,
            > especially when my buttons gets pushed.  And
            > one of the things which pushes them is the idea
            > that celibacy is necessary for realization to
            > occur.  While I realize it's traditional to say
            > such things, I'm absolutely sure that celibacy
            > is optional rather than mandatory.
            >
            > Perhaps Rushikant was kidding too.  If that's
            > the case I've stuck my foot in it again.  It's
            > not the first time, I can promise you that.
            >
            > --jody.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >    To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meditationsocietyofamerica/
            >  
            >    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >  
            >    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            >
            >
            >
            > May All Beings be Happy, be Peaceful, be Liberated from Misery.
            > Send instant messages to your online friends
            http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com




            May All Beings be Happy, be Peaceful, be Liberated from Misery.

            Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com


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          • jodyrrr
            ... No. Bliss is with us always in various forms. It s a spectrum of sensation. Spritual bliss and sexual bliss are on the same spectrum. In fact, I would
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 6, 2005
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              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Rushikant Mehta
              <rushi_kant@y...> wrote:
              > Is it not that bliss dawns only when one goes beyond the
              > power of lust for anything , including bliss ? Hen or egg ?

              No. Bliss is with us always in various forms.
              It's a spectrum of sensation. Spritual bliss and sexual
              bliss are on the same spectrum. In fact, I would argue
              that they are the same thing experienced in different
              contexts.

              So, wanting spiritual bliss is the same as wanting
              sexual bliss. Both are forms of comfort that are
              lusted after.

              People get their comfort where they find it. The idea
              that you must put off sexual pleasure to know spiritual
              pleasure is a myth. One does not cancel the other, and
              they can both be known in the same life.

              --jody.

              > jodyrrr <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:--- In
              meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Rushikant Mehta
              > <rushi_kant@y...> wrote:
              > > Nop, not kidding, very seriously, Jody, I just said, & meant
              > > that to know the source of that mystical sound of Jeff (!),
              > > one need not be a monk outwardly, & nor a ( even self-forced
              > > celibate. But do ya ever think, bliss can be a more sublime
              > > source of pleasure than lust ? And so higher that lust attracts
              > > no more ?
              > > Rushikant.
              >
              > One can lust for bliss just as much as they
              > lust for sex. Is such a lust better?
              >
              > > jodyrrr <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
              > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Flou"
              > > <tom@f...> wrote:
              > > > Dear Jody.
              > > > you wrote:
              > > >
              > > > > Sorry guys. Not to take anything away from
              > > > > Tom or any other monks, but being a monk has
              > > > > as much to do with self-realization as my
              > > > > dog's ass.
              > > > > While calming the mind is very helpful to the
              > > > > spiritual aspirant, it can be done in a number
              > > > > of ways that don't include celibacy.
              > > > > There have been many individuals who have come
              > > > > to self-realization without first being monks.
              > > > > Furthermore, one man's negative inputs are another's
              > > > > royal road to wisdom.
              > > > > So, while it may be entirely appropriate for some
              > > > > to become monks, for others it would be poison and
              > > > > completely useless to do so. There is no right way,
              > > > > or even better way for everyone.
              > > > > Do as thou wilt as long as nobody is getting hurt.
              > > > >
              > > > > --jody.
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > > We were having a bit of fun here, Jody.
              > > > No intention of hurting anybody.
              > >
              > > Of course not, Tom. I was making a reply to Rushikant's
              > > assertions:
              > >
              > > > Yep, one must be a monk, not for hearing the sound but for knowing
              > > > its source.But for the one who has attained inner monkhood,
              > > > meditated, cleansed the mind of all negative inputs, even without
              > > > entering the order of the monks, finds the doors opening without
              > > > knocking & the 'Source' eager to reveal itself ! Kudos to him !
              > > > Rushikant.
              > >
              > > I didn't read this as part of the joke, but as a
              > > contention about the necessity of celibacy.
              > >
              > > > Jeff´s joke just made me write a
              > > > humerous(?) reply.
              > >
              > > And I was not responding to either you or Jeff.
              > > However, I did feel the need to let you know that
              > > I have respect for those who make the choice to
              > > be monks, even while I have no respect for the
              > > idea that such is a spiritual necessity.
              > >
              > > > No need to drag your dog into this.
              > >
              > > I drag my dog into everything, Tom.
              > >
              > > > However clever he/she is, however
              > > > famous in these forums.....;-)
              > > > ...I don´t think dogs understand humor,
              > > > they are waaay too serious.
              > > > Playfull: Yes, but humor: No way.
              > > > What about you?
              > > >
              > > > Tom
              > >
              > > You know, sometimes I am a bit humor impaired,
              > > especially when my buttons gets pushed. And
              > > one of the things which pushes them is the idea
              > > that celibacy is necessary for realization to
              > > occur. While I realize it's traditional to say
              > > such things, I'm absolutely sure that celibacy
              > > is optional rather than mandatory.
              > >
              > > Perhaps Rushikant was kidding too. If that's
              > > the case I've stuck my foot in it again. It's
              > > not the first time, I can promise you that.
              > >
              > > --jody.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ---------------------------------
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meditationsocietyofamerica/
              > >
              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              Service.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > May All Beings be Happy, be Peaceful, be Liberated from Misery.
              > > Send instant messages to your online friends
              > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meditationsocietyofamerica/
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > May All Beings be Happy, be Peaceful, be Liberated from Misery.
              > Send instant messages to your online friends
              http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
            • jodyrrr
              ... only to get a state of unattached dwelling where one is free from LUST,ANGER,GREED,FEAR AND EGO. One exists as freedom itself, at all times, regardless of
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 6, 2005
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                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, suman sk
                <sumansk@y...> wrote:
                > I will add here that the whole idea of mediatation and liberation is
                only to get a state of unattached dwelling where one is free from
                LUST,ANGER,GREED,FEAR AND EGO.

                One exists as freedom itself, at all times, regardless
                of how much lust, anger, greed, etc. one is experiencing.

                It's always right there, closer than our own breath.
                We may be distracted from it by the various conditions
                of life, but once it's been recognized, no amount of lust,
                anger, greed, etc. will sway one from the fact that they
                are freedom itself.

                --jody.

                > The FACT is a FACT even when one tries to suit his or her own need.
                > Thanks
                > SK
                >
                > Rushikant Mehta <rushi_kant@y...> wrote:
                > Is it not that bliss dawns only when one goes beyond the power of
                lust for anything , including bliss ? Hen or egg ?
                >
                > jodyrrr <jodyrrr@y...> wrote: --- In
                meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Rushikant Mehta
                > <rushi_kant@y...> wrote:
                > > Nop, not kidding, very seriously, Jody, I just said, & meant
                > > that to know the source of that mystical sound of Jeff (!),
                > > one need not be a monk outwardly, & nor a ( even self-forced
                > > celibate. But do ya ever think, bliss can be a more sublime
                > > source of pleasure than lust ? And so higher that lust attracts
                > > no more ?
                > > Rushikant.
                >
                > One can lust for bliss just as much as they
                > lust for sex. Is such a lust better?
                >
                > > jodyrrr <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Flou"
                > > <tom@f...> wrote:
                > > > Dear Jody.
                > > > you wrote:
                > > >
                > > > > Sorry guys. Not to take anything away from
                > > > > Tom or any other monks, but being a monk has
                > > > > as much to do with self-realization as my
                > > > > dog's ass.
                > > > > While calming the mind is very helpful to the
                > > > > spiritual aspirant, it can be done in a number
                > > > > of ways that don't include celibacy.
                > > > > There have been many individuals who have come
                > > > > to self-realization without first being monks.
                > > > > Furthermore, one man's negative inputs are another's
                > > > > royal road to wisdom.
                > > > > So, while it may be entirely appropriate for some
                > > > > to become monks, for others it would be poison and
                > > > > completely useless to do so. There is no right way,
                > > > > or even better way for everyone.
                > > > > Do as thou wilt as long as nobody is getting hurt.
                > > > >
                > > > > --jody.
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > > We were having a bit of fun here, Jody.
                > > > No intention of hurting anybody.
                > >
                > > Of course not, Tom. I was making a reply to Rushikant's
                > > assertions:
                > >
                > > > Yep, one must be a monk, not for hearing the sound but for knowing
                > > > its source.But for the one who has attained inner monkhood,
                > > > meditated, cleansed the mind of all negative inputs, even without
                > > > entering the order of the monks, finds the doors opening without
                > > > knocking & the 'Source' eager to reveal itself ! Kudos to him !
                > > > Rushikant.
                > >
                > > I didn't read this as part of the joke, but as a
                > > contention about the necessity of celibacy.
                > >
                > > > Jeff´s joke just made me write a
                > > > humerous(?) reply.
                > >
                > > And I was not responding to either you or Jeff.
                > > However, I did feel the need to let you know that
                > > I have respect for those who make the choice to
                > > be monks, even while I have no respect for the
                > > idea that such is a spiritual necessity.
                > >
                > > > No need to drag your dog into this.
                > >
                > > I drag my dog into everything, Tom.
                > >
                > > > However clever he/she is, however
                > > > famous in these forums.....;-)
                > > > ...I don´t think dogs understand humor,
                > > > they are waaay too serious.
                > > > Playfull: Yes, but humor: No way.
                > > > What about you?
                > > >
                > > > Tom
                > >
                > > You know, sometimes I am a bit humor impaired,
                > > especially when my buttons gets pushed. And
                > > one of the things which pushes them is the idea
                > > that celibacy is necessary for realization to
                > > occur. While I realize it's traditional to say
                > > such things, I'm absolutely sure that celibacy
                > > is optional rather than mandatory.
                > >
                > > Perhaps Rushikant was kidding too. If that's
                > > the case I've stuck my foot in it again. It's
                > > not the first time, I can promise you that.
                > >
                > > --jody.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ---------------------------------
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meditationsocietyofamerica/
                > >
                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                Service.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > May All Beings be Happy, be Peaceful, be Liberated from Misery.
                > > Send instant messages to your online friends
                > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > May All Beings be Happy, be Peaceful, be Liberated from Misery.
                > Send instant messages to your online friends
                http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meditationsocietyofamerica/
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                >
                >
                >
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              • suman sk
                yr quote So, wanting spiritual bliss is the same as wanting sexual bliss. Both are forms of comfort that are lusted after. response: the only BIG difference
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 6, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  yr quote
                  "So, wanting spiritual bliss is the same as wanting
                  sexual bliss.  Both are forms of comfort that are
                  lusted after."
                  response: the only BIG difference between them is spiritual bliss is sustainable and sexual bliss go away with age and many other factors, it is not sustainable.and then it is a cause of suffering, like for many in old age . Sex reside in their minds but not in muscles.
                  I am looking for bliss which is blissful for ever every moment and freedom which is unwaivering.
                  --OM
                  SK

                  jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Rushikant Mehta
                  <rushi_kant@y...> wrote:
                  > Is it not that bliss dawns only when one goes beyond the
                  > power of lust for anything , including bliss ? Hen or egg ?

                  No.  Bliss is with us always in various forms.
                  It's a spectrum of sensation.  Spritual bliss and sexual
                  bliss are on the same spectrum.  In fact, I would argue
                  that they are the same thing experienced in different
                  contexts.

                  So, wanting spiritual bliss is the same as wanting
                  sexual bliss.  Both are forms of comfort that are
                  lusted after.

                  People get their comfort where they find it.  The idea
                  that you must put off sexual pleasure to know spiritual
                  pleasure is a myth.  One does not cancel the other, and
                  they can both be known in the same life.

                  --jody.

                  > jodyrrr <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:--- In
                  meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Rushikant Mehta
                  > <rushi_kant@y...> wrote:
                  > > Nop, not kidding, very seriously, Jody, I just said, & meant
                  > > that to know the source of that mystical sound of Jeff (!),
                  > > one need not be a monk outwardly, & nor a ( even self-forced
                  > > celibate. But do ya ever think, bliss can be a more sublime
                  > > source of pleasure than lust ? And so higher that lust attracts
                  > > no more ?
                  > > Rushikant.
                  >
                  > One can lust for bliss just as much as they
                  > lust for sex.  Is such a lust better?
                  >
                  > > jodyrrr <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                  > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Flou"
                  > > <tom@f...> wrote:
                  > > > Dear Jody.
                  > > > you wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > > Sorry guys.  Not to take anything away from
                  > > > > Tom or any other monks, but being a monk has
                  > > > > as much to do with self-realization as my
                  > > > > dog's ass.
                  > > > > While calming the mind is very helpful to the
                  > > > > spiritual aspirant, it can be done in a number
                  > > > > of ways that don't include celibacy.
                  > > > > There have been many individuals who have come
                  > > > > to self-realization without first being monks.
                  > > > > Furthermore, one man's negative inputs are another's
                  > > > > royal road to wisdom.
                  > > > > So, while it may be entirely appropriate for some
                  > > > > to become monks, for others it would be poison and
                  > > > > completely useless to do so.  There is no right way,
                  > > > > or even better way for everyone.
                  > > > > Do as thou wilt as long as nobody is getting hurt.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --jody.
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > We were having a bit of fun here, Jody.
                  > > > No intention of hurting anybody.
                  > >
                  > > Of course not, Tom.  I was making a reply to Rushikant's
                  > > assertions:
                  > >
                  > > > Yep, one must be a monk, not for hearing the sound but for knowing
                  > > > its source.But for the one who has attained inner monkhood,
                  > > > meditated, cleansed the mind of all negative inputs, even without
                  > > > entering the order of the monks, finds the doors opening without
                  > > > knocking & the 'Source' eager to reveal itself ! Kudos to him !
                  > > > Rushikant.
                  > >
                  > > I didn't read this as part of the joke, but as a
                  > > contention about the necessity of celibacy.
                  > >
                  > > > Jeff´s joke just made me write a
                  > > > humerous(?) reply.
                  > >
                  > > And I was not responding to either you or Jeff.
                  > > However, I did feel the need to let you know that
                  > > I have respect for those who make the choice to
                  > > be monks, even while I have no respect for the
                  > > idea that such is a spiritual necessity.
                  > >
                  > > > No need to drag your dog into this.
                  > >
                  > > I drag my dog into everything, Tom.
                  > >
                  > > > However clever he/she is, however
                  > > > famous in these forums.....;-)
                  > > > ...I don´t think dogs understand humor,
                  > > > they are waaay too serious.
                  > > > Playfull: Yes, but humor: No way.
                  > > > What about you?
                  > > >
                  > > > Tom
                  > >
                  > > You know, sometimes I am a bit humor impaired,
                  > > especially when my buttons gets pushed.  And
                  > > one of the things which pushes them is the idea
                  > > that celibacy is necessary for realization to
                  > > occur.  While I realize it's traditional to say
                  > > such things, I'm absolutely sure that celibacy
                  > > is optional rather than mandatory.
                  > >
                  > > Perhaps Rushikant was kidding too.  If that's
                  > > the case I've stuck my foot in it again.  It's
                  > > not the first time, I can promise you that.
                  > >
                  > > --jody.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ---------------------------------
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >    To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meditationsocietyofamerica/
                  > >  
                  > >    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >  
                  > >    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  Service.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > May All Beings be Happy, be Peaceful, be Liberated from Misery.
                  > > Send instant messages to your online friends
                  > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >    To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meditationsocietyofamerica/
                  >  
                  >    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >  
                  >    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > May All Beings be Happy, be Peaceful, be Liberated from Misery.
                  > Send instant messages to your online friends
                  http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com


                  __________________________________________________
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                • jodyrrr
                  ... That unwavering freedom IS us, right now and always. It s never been anywhere else but right here. But expecting your freedom to be a source of constant
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 6, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, suman sk
                    <sumansk@y...> wrote:
                    > yr quote
                    > "So, wanting spiritual bliss is the same as wanting
                    > sexual bliss. Both are forms of comfort that are
                    > lusted after."
                    > response: the only BIG difference between them is spiritual
                    > bliss is sustainable and sexual bliss go away with age and many
                    > other factors, it is not sustainable.and then it is a cause of
                    > suffering, like for many in old age . Sex reside in their minds
                    > but not in muscles.
                    > I am looking for bliss which is blissful for ever every moment
                    > and freedom which is unwaivering.
                    > --OM
                    > SK

                    That unwavering freedom IS us, right now and always.
                    It's never been anywhere else but right here.

                    But expecting your freedom to be a source of constant
                    bliss is occluding nonsense. We are in bodies, and
                    while we may be blessed to know ourselves as that
                    unwavering freedom, if we fall and bump our heads,
                    our bliss is likely to be interruped by some pain.

                    Your desire for sustainable bliss is identical to
                    another's desire for sex. You've just dressed it
                    up in pretty bows and so think it's "higher." It's
                    not. It's all about seeking comfort. You may believe
                    yours is somehow better, but that's just egocentricism.

                    --jody.

                    >
                    > jodyrrr <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                    > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Rushikant Mehta
                    > <rushi_kant@y...> wrote:
                    > > Is it not that bliss dawns only when one goes beyond the
                    > > power of lust for anything , including bliss ? Hen or egg ?
                    >
                    > No. Bliss is with us always in various forms.
                    > It's a spectrum of sensation. Spritual bliss and sexual
                    > bliss are on the same spectrum. In fact, I would argue
                    > that they are the same thing experienced in different
                    > contexts.
                    >
                    > So, wanting spiritual bliss is the same as wanting
                    > sexual bliss. Both are forms of comfort that are
                    > lusted after.
                    >
                    > People get their comfort where they find it. The idea
                    > that you must put off sexual pleasure to know spiritual
                    > pleasure is a myth. One does not cancel the other, and
                    > they can both be known in the same life.
                    >
                    > --jody.
                    >
                    > > jodyrrr <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:--- In
                    > meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Rushikant Mehta
                    > > <rushi_kant@y...> wrote:
                    > > > Nop, not kidding, very seriously, Jody, I just said, & meant
                    > > > that to know the source of that mystical sound of Jeff (!),
                    > > > one need not be a monk outwardly, & nor a ( even self-forced
                    > > > celibate. But do ya ever think, bliss can be a more sublime
                    > > > source of pleasure than lust ? And so higher that lust attracts
                    > > > no more ?
                    > > > Rushikant.
                    > >
                    > > One can lust for bliss just as much as they
                    > > lust for sex. Is such a lust better?
                    > >
                    > > > jodyrrr <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                    > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Flou"
                    > > > <tom@f...> wrote:
                    > > > > Dear Jody.
                    > > > > you wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > > Sorry guys. Not to take anything away from
                    > > > > > Tom or any other monks, but being a monk has
                    > > > > > as much to do with self-realization as my
                    > > > > > dog's ass.
                    > > > > > While calming the mind is very helpful to the
                    > > > > > spiritual aspirant, it can be done in a number
                    > > > > > of ways that don't include celibacy.
                    > > > > > There have been many individuals who have come
                    > > > > > to self-realization without first being monks.
                    > > > > > Furthermore, one man's negative inputs are another's
                    > > > > > royal road to wisdom.
                    > > > > > So, while it may be entirely appropriate for some
                    > > > > > to become monks, for others it would be poison and
                    > > > > > completely useless to do so. There is no right way,
                    > > > > > or even better way for everyone.
                    > > > > > Do as thou wilt as long as nobody is getting hurt.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --jody.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > We were having a bit of fun here, Jody.
                    > > > > No intention of hurting anybody.
                    > > >
                    > > > Of course not, Tom. I was making a reply to Rushikant's
                    > > > assertions:
                    > > >
                    > > > > Yep, one must be a monk, not for hearing the sound but for knowing
                    > > > > its source.But for the one who has attained inner monkhood,
                    > > > > meditated, cleansed the mind of all negative inputs, even without
                    > > > > entering the order of the monks, finds the doors opening without
                    > > > > knocking & the 'Source' eager to reveal itself ! Kudos to him !
                    > > > > Rushikant.
                    > > >
                    > > > I didn't read this as part of the joke, but as a
                    > > > contention about the necessity of celibacy.
                    > > >
                    > > > > Jeff´s joke just made me write a
                    > > > > humerous(?) reply.
                    > > >
                    > > > And I was not responding to either you or Jeff.
                    > > > However, I did feel the need to let you know that
                    > > > I have respect for those who make the choice to
                    > > > be monks, even while I have no respect for the
                    > > > idea that such is a spiritual necessity.
                    > > >
                    > > > > No need to drag your dog into this.
                    > > >
                    > > > I drag my dog into everything, Tom.
                    > > >
                    > > > > However clever he/she is, however
                    > > > > famous in these forums.....;-)
                    > > > > ...I don´t think dogs understand humor,
                    > > > > they are waaay too serious.
                    > > > > Playfull: Yes, but humor: No way.
                    > > > > What about you?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Tom
                    > > >
                    > > > You know, sometimes I am a bit humor impaired,
                    > > > especially when my buttons gets pushed. And
                    > > > one of the things which pushes them is the idea
                    > > > that celibacy is necessary for realization to
                    > > > occur. While I realize it's traditional to say
                    > > > such things, I'm absolutely sure that celibacy
                    > > > is optional rather than mandatory.
                    > > >
                    > > > Perhaps Rushikant was kidding too. If that's
                    > > > the case I've stuck my foot in it again. It's
                    > > > not the first time, I can promise you that.
                    > > >
                    > > > --jody.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ---------------------------------
                    > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > >
                    > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meditationsocietyofamerica/
                    > > >
                    > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >
                    > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    > Service.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > May All Beings be Happy, be Peaceful, be Liberated from Misery.
                    > > > Send instant messages to your online friends
                    > > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ---------------------------------
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meditationsocietyofamerica/
                    > >
                    > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    Service.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > May All Beings be Happy, be Peaceful, be Liberated from Misery.
                    > > Send instant messages to your online friends
                    > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meditationsocietyofamerica/
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                    >
                    >
                    > __________________________________________________
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                  • Jeff Belyea
                    ... Hi Jody - While the seeking and the desire for sex, for spiritual awakening, or a tootsie pop, may all have something to do with your comfort-catchall
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jun 10, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                      <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, suman sk
                      > <sumansk@y...> wrote:
                      > > yr quote
                      > > "So, wanting spiritual bliss is the same as wanting
                      > > sexual bliss. Both are forms of comfort that are
                      > > lusted after."
                      > > response: the only BIG difference between them is spiritual
                      > > bliss is sustainable and sexual bliss go away with age and many
                      > > other factors, it is not sustainable.and then it is a cause of
                      > > suffering, like for many in old age . Sex reside in their minds
                      > > but not in muscles.
                      > > I am looking for bliss which is blissful for ever every moment
                      > > and freedom which is unwaivering.
                      > > --OM
                      > > SK
                      >
                      > That unwavering freedom IS us, right now and always.
                      > It's never been anywhere else but right here.
                      >
                      > But expecting your freedom to be a source of constant
                      > bliss is occluding nonsense. We are in bodies, and
                      > while we may be blessed to know ourselves as that
                      > unwavering freedom, if we fall and bump our heads,
                      > our bliss is likely to be interruped by some pain.
                      >
                      > Your desire for sustainable bliss is identical to
                      > another's desire for sex. You've just dressed it
                      > up in pretty bows and so think it's "higher." It's
                      > not. It's all about seeking comfort. You may believe
                      > yours is somehow better, but that's just egocentricism.
                      >
                      > --jody.

                      Hi Jody -

                      While the seeking and
                      the desire for sex,
                      for spiritual awakening,
                      or a tootsie pop, may all
                      have something to do with
                      your comfort-catchall
                      thesis, the quality of
                      the comfort received is
                      inherently different
                      in each instance.

                      Sustainability is a
                      tangent off that main
                      point, and one that
                      cannot be addressed
                      a priori. The issue of
                      sustainability is not
                      in the forefront of the
                      seeker's mind. Following
                      your model and syntax,
                      comfort is the goal.

                      And while a tootsie pop
                      may be savored and
                      lasts a long time, no
                      one expects it to last
                      eternally. Wow, The
                      Eternal Tootsie Pop,
                      available now, at your
                      favorite market or ashram.

                      Back to the sustainability
                      tangent...

                      Once spiritual awakening
                      is experienced (understood
                      by direct experiential
                      "Knowing"), the matter
                      of sustainability enters.

                      I know that you are well
                      versed in the Hindu model,
                      where there are distinctions
                      of a "salvikalpa samadhi" -
                      momentary, or in-meditation
                      bliss that fades much like
                      a chemically induced high,
                      and then the sustained bliss
                      of a "nirvikalpa samadhi"
                      that becomes an undercurrent
                      of life's every moment,
                      bump on the head or not -
                      the "sahaja samadhi" or
                      natural enlightenment.
                      This is sustainable, without
                      a nanosecond's interruption
                      ever. It is unassailable,
                      unfreakoutable, Self-
                      Realized, God-Realized,
                      Spirit-Realized bliss.
                      Eternal, even (being
                      outside of the time/
                      space pixie dust).

                      And to compare any of
                      these samadhis to the
                      bliss of sex, or drugs
                      or rock'n'roll (all of
                      which I speak of from
                      direct experiential
                      knowledge and heartily
                      endorsed with 4-star
                      ratings,and still do,
                      except the drugs) is to
                      transparently enter the
                      realm of not knowing what
                      to heaven (5-star rating
                      ...a kazillion-star rating)
                      you're talking about.

                      When you deconstruct
                      down your oft-used and
                      abused "exactly like...
                      nothing more than...
                      that's only..." you're
                      over into a false posture,
                      assuming, or at least
                      presenting that you
                      are the holder of
                      absolute objective
                      truths...in a relative
                      world.

                      The things(consciousness)
                      of the absolute spiritual
                      or awakened realm cannot
                      be compared or constasted
                      to the things of the
                      material, relative world.
                      They're not in the same
                      ballpark.

                      Love, as always.

                      Nothing more than...

                      Jeff
                    • jodyrrr
                      ... Definitely, and the scale of what is quality comfort is different for everyone. ... For as long as it can be maintained. Comfort is a condition of safety
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jun 10, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                        <jeff@m...> wrote:
                        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                        > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                        > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, suman sk
                        > > <sumansk@y...> wrote:
                        > > > yr quote
                        > > > "So, wanting spiritual bliss is the same as wanting
                        > > > sexual bliss. Both are forms of comfort that are
                        > > > lusted after."
                        > > > response: the only BIG difference between them is spiritual
                        > > > bliss is sustainable and sexual bliss go away with age and many
                        > > > other factors, it is not sustainable.and then it is a cause of
                        > > > suffering, like for many in old age . Sex reside in their minds
                        > > > but not in muscles.
                        > > > I am looking for bliss which is blissful for ever every moment
                        > > > and freedom which is unwaivering.
                        > > > --OM
                        > > > SK
                        > >
                        > > That unwavering freedom IS us, right now and always.
                        > > It's never been anywhere else but right here.
                        > >
                        > > But expecting your freedom to be a source of constant
                        > > bliss is occluding nonsense. We are in bodies, and
                        > > while we may be blessed to know ourselves as that
                        > > unwavering freedom, if we fall and bump our heads,
                        > > our bliss is likely to be interruped by some pain.
                        > >
                        > > Your desire for sustainable bliss is identical to
                        > > another's desire for sex. You've just dressed it
                        > > up in pretty bows and so think it's "higher." It's
                        > > not. It's all about seeking comfort. You may believe
                        > > yours is somehow better, but that's just egocentricism.
                        > >
                        > > --jody.
                        >
                        > Hi Jody -
                        >
                        > While the seeking and
                        > the desire for sex,
                        > for spiritual awakening,
                        > or a tootsie pop, may all
                        > have something to do with
                        > your comfort-catchall
                        > thesis, the quality of
                        > the comfort received is
                        > inherently different
                        > in each instance.

                        Definitely, and the scale of what is
                        quality comfort is different for
                        everyone.

                        > Sustainability is a
                        > tangent off that main
                        > point, and one that
                        > cannot be addressed
                        > a priori. The issue of
                        > sustainability is not
                        > in the forefront of the
                        > seeker's mind. Following
                        > your model and syntax,
                        > comfort is the goal.

                        For as long as it can be maintained.
                        Comfort is a condition of safety
                        and supply. There is a minimum
                        level of these which must be met,
                        different for everyone. But it
                        doesn't stop at that level, hence
                        we have super rich folk with
                        everything they want.

                        But that doesn't mean money ensures
                        comfort, just that it gets the basics
                        covered.

                        > And while a tootsie pop
                        > may be savored and
                        > lasts a long time, no
                        > one expects it to last
                        > eternally. Wow, The
                        > Eternal Tootsie Pop,
                        > available now, at your
                        > favorite market or ashram.
                        >
                        > Back to the sustainability
                        > tangent...
                        >
                        > Once spiritual awakening
                        > is experienced (understood
                        > by direct experiential
                        > "Knowing"), the matter
                        > of sustainability enters.
                        >
                        > I know that you are well
                        > versed in the Hindu model,
                        > where there are distinctions
                        > of a "salvikalpa samadhi" -
                        > momentary, or in-meditation
                        > bliss that fades much like
                        > a chemically induced high,
                        > and then the sustained bliss
                        > of a "nirvikalpa samadhi"
                        > that becomes an undercurrent
                        > of life's every moment,
                        > bump on the head or not -
                        > the "sahaja samadhi" or
                        > natural enlightenment.
                        > This is sustainable, without
                        > a nanosecond's interruption
                        > ever. It is unassailable,
                        > unfreakoutable, Self-
                        > Realized, God-Realized,
                        > Spirit-Realized bliss.
                        > Eternal, even (being
                        > outside of the time/
                        > space pixie dust).

                        I don't think sustainability comes into
                        play at all. When you see who you really
                        are, that's it. You know yourself as that,
                        always.

                        I don't pay attention to flavors of
                        samadhi. You know who you are, you
                        are still looking to know who you are,
                        or you don't really care who you are.

                        > And to compare any of
                        > these samadhis to the
                        > bliss of sex, or drugs
                        > or rock'n'roll (all of
                        > which I speak of from
                        > direct experiential
                        > knowledge and heartily
                        > endorsed with 4-star
                        > ratings,and still do,
                        > except the drugs) is to
                        > transparently enter the
                        > realm of not knowing what
                        > to heaven (5-star rating
                        > ...a kazillion-star rating)
                        > you're talking about.

                        To me samadhi is the understanding
                        of the Self. That IS the Self.
                        You can't compare it to anything.
                        What I was saying is that the desire
                        to do drugs and the desire for spiritual
                        bliss, AND samadhi, are the same thing.
                        Comfort seeking.

                        Samadhi is preferrable to sex, drugs,
                        whatever. But those who want samadhi,
                        want what they believe samadhi will be.
                        You can't have ANY IDEA AT ALL about
                        what samadhi is like until you've been
                        to samadhi. Until then all you can have
                        is speculation about it, and EVERY
                        speculation is incorrect, regardless of
                        what guru or scripture told you.

                        I believe that peoples' ideas about
                        samadhi has something to do with their
                        notions about ultimate comfort. It IS
                        a kind of ultimate comfort, but I guarantee
                        you it's not in the way they think it is.

                        That is not possible, to anticipate what
                        samadhi is like before you've been there
                        yourself.

                        > When you deconstruct
                        > down your oft-used and
                        > abused "exactly like...
                        > nothing more than...
                        > that's only..." you're
                        > over into a false posture,
                        > assuming, or at least
                        > presenting that you
                        > are the holder of
                        > absolute objective
                        > truths...in a relative
                        > world.

                        I know who I am, I know vedanta somewhat,
                        I comment from there.

                        > The things(consciousness)
                        > of the absolute spiritual
                        > or awakened realm cannot
                        > be compared or constasted
                        > to the things of the
                        > material, relative world.
                        > They're not in the same
                        > ballpark.

                        I have never, ever done so, Jeff.

                        You have read me wrong.

                        I'm not comparing the Self to anything.
                        I'm comparing the desire to know the
                        Self to other desires. I'm saying they
                        are the same thing, seeking comfort.

                        And I'm saying seeking comfort is always
                        ok, as long as you aren't hurting yourself
                        or others.

                        > Love, as always.
                        >
                        > Nothing more than...
                        >
                        > Jeff

                        No prob, my friend.

                        We're just a bit out of phase sometimes.

                        --jody.
                      • Jeff Belyea
                        ... many ... of ... minds ... moment ... My reference was in response to your earlier comment about a bump on the head interrupting the bliss. A minor point on
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jun 11, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                          <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                          > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                          > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                          > > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                          > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, suman sk
                          > > > <sumansk@y...> wrote:
                          > > > > yr quote
                          > > > > "So, wanting spiritual bliss is the same as wanting
                          > > > > sexual bliss. Both are forms of comfort that are
                          > > > > lusted after."
                          > > > > response: the only BIG difference between them is spiritual
                          > > > > bliss is sustainable and sexual bliss go away with age and
                          many
                          > > > > other factors, it is not sustainable.and then it is a cause
                          of
                          > > > > suffering, like for many in old age . Sex reside in their
                          minds
                          > > > > but not in muscles.
                          > > > > I am looking for bliss which is blissful for ever every
                          moment
                          > > > > and freedom which is unwaivering.
                          > > > > --OM
                          > > > > SK
                          > > >
                          > > > That unwavering freedom IS us, right now and always.
                          > > > It's never been anywhere else but right here.
                          > > >
                          > > > But expecting your freedom to be a source of constant
                          > > > bliss is occluding nonsense. We are in bodies, and
                          > > > while we may be blessed to know ourselves as that
                          > > > unwavering freedom, if we fall and bump our heads,
                          > > > our bliss is likely to be interruped by some pain.
                          > > >
                          > > > Your desire for sustainable bliss is identical to
                          > > > another's desire for sex. You've just dressed it
                          > > > up in pretty bows and so think it's "higher." It's
                          > > > not. It's all about seeking comfort. You may believe
                          > > > yours is somehow better, but that's just egocentricism.
                          > > >
                          > > > --jody.
                          > >
                          > > Hi Jody -
                          > >
                          > > While the seeking and
                          > > the desire for sex,
                          > > for spiritual awakening,
                          > > or a tootsie pop, may all
                          > > have something to do with
                          > > your comfort-catchall
                          > > thesis, the quality of
                          > > the comfort received is
                          > > inherently different
                          > > in each instance.
                          >
                          > Definitely, and the scale of what is
                          > quality comfort is different for
                          > everyone.
                          >
                          > > Sustainability is a
                          > > tangent off that main
                          > > point, and one that
                          > > cannot be addressed
                          > > a priori. The issue of
                          > > sustainability is not
                          > > in the forefront of the
                          > > seeker's mind. Following
                          > > your model and syntax,
                          > > comfort is the goal.
                          >
                          > For as long as it can be maintained.
                          > Comfort is a condition of safety
                          > and supply. There is a minimum
                          > level of these which must be met,
                          > different for everyone. But it
                          > doesn't stop at that level, hence
                          > we have super rich folk with
                          > everything they want.
                          >
                          > But that doesn't mean money ensures
                          > comfort, just that it gets the basics
                          > covered.
                          >
                          > > And while a tootsie pop
                          > > may be savored and
                          > > lasts a long time, no
                          > > one expects it to last
                          > > eternally. Wow, The
                          > > Eternal Tootsie Pop,
                          > > available now, at your
                          > > favorite market or ashram.
                          > >
                          > > Back to the sustainability
                          > > tangent...
                          > >
                          > > Once spiritual awakening
                          > > is experienced (understood
                          > > by direct experiential
                          > > "Knowing"), the matter
                          > > of sustainability enters.
                          > >
                          > > I know that you are well
                          > > versed in the Hindu model,
                          > > where there are distinctions
                          > > of a "salvikalpa samadhi" -
                          > > momentary, or in-meditation
                          > > bliss that fades much like
                          > > a chemically induced high,
                          > > and then the sustained bliss
                          > > of a "nirvikalpa samadhi"
                          > > that becomes an undercurrent
                          > > of life's every moment,
                          > > bump on the head or not -
                          > > the "sahaja samadhi" or
                          > > natural enlightenment.
                          > > This is sustainable, without
                          > > a nanosecond's interruption
                          > > ever. It is unassailable,
                          > > unfreakoutable, Self-
                          > > Realized, God-Realized,
                          > > Spirit-Realized bliss.
                          > > Eternal, even (being
                          > > outside of the time/
                          > > space pixie dust).
                          >
                          > I don't think sustainability comes into
                          > play at all. When you see who you really
                          > are, that's it. You know yourself as that,
                          > always.

                          My reference was in response
                          to your earlier comment about
                          a bump on the head interrupting
                          the bliss. A minor point on the
                          way to my main issue with some
                          of your responses. I am simply
                          making an appeal that you
                          refrain from disdain.

                          >
                          > I don't pay attention to flavors of
                          > samadhi. You know who you are, you
                          > are still looking to know who you are,
                          > or you don't really care who you are.

                          Nice, succinct distinctions.

                          >
                          > > And to compare any of
                          > > these samadhis to the
                          > > bliss of sex, or drugs
                          > > or rock'n'roll (all of
                          > > which I speak of from
                          > > direct experiential
                          > > knowledge and heartily
                          > > endorsed with 4-star
                          > > ratings,and still do,
                          > > except the drugs) is to
                          > > transparently enter the
                          > > realm of not knowing what
                          > > to heaven (5-star rating
                          > > ...a kazillion-star rating)
                          > > you're talking about.
                          >
                          > To me samadhi is the understanding
                          > of the Self. That IS the Self.
                          > You can't compare it to anything.
                          > What I was saying is that the desire
                          > to do drugs and the desire for spiritual
                          > bliss, AND samadhi, are the same thing.
                          > Comfort seeking.
                          >
                          > Samadhi is preferrable to sex, drugs,
                          > whatever. But those who want samadhi,
                          > want what they believe samadhi will be.
                          > You can't have ANY IDEA AT ALL about
                          > what samadhi is like until you've been
                          > to samadhi. Until then all you can have
                          > is speculation about it, and EVERY
                          > speculation is incorrect, regardless of
                          > what guru or scripture told you.

                          I agree. Never a dispute here.

                          >
                          > I believe that peoples' ideas about
                          > samadhi has something to do with their
                          > notions about ultimate comfort. It IS
                          > a kind of ultimate comfort, but I guarantee
                          > you it's not in the way they think it is.
                          >
                          > That is not possible, to anticipate what
                          > samadhi is like before you've been there
                          > yourself.

                          Agreed.

                          >
                          > > When you deconstruct
                          > > down your oft-used and
                          > > abused "exactly like...
                          > > nothing more than...
                          > > that's only..." you're
                          > > over into a false posture,
                          > > assuming, or at least
                          > > presenting that you
                          > > are the holder of
                          > > absolute objective
                          > > truths...in a relative
                          > > world.
                          >
                          > I know who I am, I know vedanta somewhat,
                          > I comment from there.

                          Understood. My appeal is
                          that you leave room for
                          the sweet, bhakti types
                          without putting your dog's
                          ass in their face.

                          >
                          > > The things(consciousness)
                          > > of the absolute spiritual
                          > > or awakened realm cannot
                          > > be compared or constasted
                          > > to the things of the
                          > > material, relative world.
                          > > They're not in the same
                          > > ballpark.
                          >
                          > I have never, ever done so, Jeff.
                          >
                          > You have read me wrong.

                          Sorry to have done you wrong, song.
                          I did understand that you were
                          comparing the desire. I just
                          added a little clang to get
                          your attention.

                          >
                          > I'm not comparing the Self to anything.
                          > I'm comparing the desire to know the
                          > Self to other desires. I'm saying they
                          > are the same thing, seeking comfort.
                          >
                          > And I'm saying seeking comfort is always
                          > ok, as long as you aren't hurting yourself
                          > or others.
                          >
                          > > Love, as always.
                          > >
                          > > Nothing more than...
                          > >
                          > > Jeff
                          >
                          > No prob, my friend.
                          >
                          > We're just a bit out of phase sometimes.

                          Aren't we all.

                          >
                          > --jody.

                          Best,

                          Jeff
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