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re: Spiritual Humanism

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  • de la rouviere
    Dear Sundeep, Please allow me to top-post this reply, as the body of both my original post and your replies make it a bit heavy to insert it at the beginning
    Message 1 of 2 , May 19, 2005
      Dear Sundeep,
       
      Please allow me to top-post this reply, as the body of both my original post and your replies make it a bit heavy to insert it at the beginning of my brief  reply.
                                     ...............................
       
      Thanks for your reply to my post on Spiritual Humanism.
       
      Allow me just to say that I also am well aware of all the arguments you have brought against my position. You may not be aware of it, but about three years ago I was the moderator of a group called Advaita Ashram.  Here we endlessly discussed these very same isues, with me always taking the gradualist view, and the Advaitists the views you hold.  This matter was never resolved.
       
      So, I decided to close the group and rather devote my time to writing my book.  I no longer discuss the Advaitist view as proposed by yourself.  For me this issue is closed I see it as a non-argument. My book stands as my own testament against the matters you raise.  So, allow me to ask you: should you feel you want to pursue this matter, please first read my book.  After that, if you have any further questions we could perhaps discuss matters further.
       
      Until then, my friend, be happy.
       
      Hand in hand,
      Moller.
       
      >>Moller:
      What Spiritual Humanism proposes is that none of these qualities are
      not already present as either realized or unrealized potential
      within human nature. We are as much capable of Love and compassion,
      Intelligence, Wholeness and Nonduality as what has been ascribed to
      our gods.>>

      >S:
      Curious who is this "we" that is being alluded to?>


      >>M:
      These are profoundly human qualities, and once liberated from
      their 'godliness' they could become manifest as nothing other than
      human potential and human living reality.

      Such a truly Humanistic view of the complete fulfillment of human
      life serves our deep quest for spirituality in a practical and self-
      evident way. Instead of starting our investigation from the point of
      view of God as the Perfected One, we remain realistic and look at our
      lives from the point of view of our suffering, discontentment,
      unfreedom and confusion, and follow the Buddha's advice as suggested
      in the four noble truths.

      The Buddha admits that there is suffering in the world - which
      means , to some or other degree we are all subject to, and have the
      potential for, suffering. Having realized the depth and profound
      subtlety of this aspect of our humanity, he then takes the cautious
      route and advises us first of all to look at the causes of our
      suffering, before we attempt to project answers to relieve us from
      our suffering.

      In other words, the Buddha takes the humanist view. He rejects all
      metaphysics, including the separate self-sense and any notion of the
      Great Other as nothing other than integrally part of our human
      suffering and confusion, and instead proposes that we start afresh
      and look at what we do to ourselves which brings about our
      suffering. This is also the view of Spiritual Humanism which I
      explore and describe in detail in my book: Spiritualtiy Without God.

      Spiritual Humanism therefore proposes that before we project as some
      kind of revealed truth all sorts of Ultimate notions about the nature
      of human existence, we first accept our suffering as real,>>


      >S:
      Since suffering is a suffereing only to a sufferer,..............what
      you are suggesting is that the "sufferer" is to be taken as real?>


      >>and explore what it is we do that makes us suffer. And this
      exploration can only take place in the context of our humanity. As I
      said before, our suffering is not a Metaphysical problem. It is a
      human problem, and needs to be looked at from a human perspective.
      This is why self-observation and self-understanding form such
      integral parts of the meditative and contemplative practices I
      describe in my book. If unenlightened living is based on a series of
      errors or false perceptions, (leading to the notion of illusion or
      Maya) no movement towards clarity is possible until the
      identification with these uninspected aspects of ourselves have been
      fragmented and eradicated through insight, and other forms of inner
      work.>>

      >S:
      How about a suggestion Moller, that there is never a movement towards
      clarity, irrespective of whatever work inner or outer that gets to be
      done?

      That the so called movement to clarity,............even the state of
      total clarity................. is yet another halo that the sense of
      the entity creates around itself.>

      >>M:
      Spiritual Humanism therefore makes it absolutely clear that work is
      to be done.>>


      >S:
      :-)

      Doing gets done, but is there a doer of the doing?

      It is only to a sense of a doer,............ that doing is "work to
      be done".>

      >>M:
      How we go about it is of crucial importance, because if we are not
      cautious, our work may soon turn out to be nothing but a
      strengthening of the very delusions we are attempting to gain insight
      into and free ourselves from. Our task is to find ways which will
      free our being from the main cause of suffering ie the separate self-
      sense, (in all its various manifestations) without strengthening it.>>


      >S:
      That there is someone to be freed from suffering...........is the
      very root of the sense of suffering.

      That there is someoen to be freed from bondage, .............arises
      from the premise that there is someone bonded.

      And the very attempt to free, is the perpeuation of the apriori
      assumption of the existential reality of the bondage.


      Round and round the self-created, self-sustained, self-
      perpetuated....mulberry bush.>

      >>M:
      And this quite possible. We need only to allow ourselves to be
      sensitized to this possibility and not be intimidated by those who
      are adamant that any work within the relative is fruitless since it
      can only be from the disposition of the 'I' and therefore of
      necessity counter productive.>>

      >
      S:
      Not really counter- productive, but really as effective as trying to
      pick up yourself by your own boot-straps.

      You may no doubt see Samadhic colours, enlightened stars floating
      about,................ on account of having busted a blood vessel or
      two, in the attempt.

      But sooner ot later the absurdity of it..............hits.
      And no doubt there are experts and graduate schools where techniques
      and methodologies of handling boot-straps are taught.

      Even successes of having hauled yourself up by your own
      britches....... claimed and advocated.>

      >>M:
      Once we are free from the God-notion, we have only our humanity to
      fall back on.>>

      >S:
      And the notion of humanity itself?>

      >>M:
      And in truth there is nothing suspect about human nature. In
      potential, always ready to become our living reality, it is all
      here. Nothing holds us back but the delusions we have about our
      natural condition. And integrally part of these delusions are not
      only our gods and saviours, but our uninspected attempts to deal with
      the problems facing us - attempts we have come to know as our
      religious and spiritual traditions. To be truly spiritual is to be
      truly human.>>
       
      >S:
      To be truly spiritual is the apperception that there being no such
      distinction as "spiritual" and "human"....

      ....the very concept of the state of spirituality, either now, or yet-
      to-be-in-some-distant-future-as-a-consequence-of-some-inner/outer-
      work.......

      .......is just another conceptualizing.

      Did you know the term spiritual comes from the Latin root
      word "spiritualis".

      Which means breathing.

      The ethereal connotations are mere add-ons.>

    • medit8ionsociety
      ... snip ... snip And a friend of mine emailed me and showed how she supported the views she sees one of these fine gentlemen taking, and another friend relays
      Message 2 of 2 , May 19, 2005
        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
        "de la rouviere" <mollerdlr@t...> wrote:
        > Dear Sundeep,
        >
        snip

        >> Sandeep wrote:

        snip

        And a friend of mine emailed me and showed how she
        supported the views she sees one of these fine
        gentlemen taking, and another friend relays to me
        how the same person misses the mark, and the other
        one is right on. So, what is one to think?
        And Kir Li Molari answers: "No-thing!":-)
        It reminds me of a great movie I just saw this weekend
        on cable...I Heart Huckabees. You say potatoes and
        I say tater tots. Sudden awareness verses gradual
        understanding. And of course the popular "Gradual
        Sudden Awareness" is the punch line. Well, I know that
        both of my friends "Know" what they speak of, and I also
        know that Sandeep is as good as it gets, and so far
        so good for Moller as well. As for me, I see it as quite
        a blessing to have such thought provoking and thought
        stopping meals presented to feed our spiritual hunger!
        Thanks to all!
        Peace and blessings,
        Bob
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