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Re: WHAT IS TRANSMISSION ?

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  • ser_el_ser
    ... Thanks, very good reply. Maria
    Message 1 of 21 , May 17 2:47 PM
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      ....snip
      > >
      > > Hello Jeff and Jodi,
      > >
      > > I would like to enter here.
      > > Though I agree with Jodi that "It happens over time by way of
      > deconditioning
      > > and added clarity brought about by meditation" in the sense that
      > > understanding comes with time, I also know that thanks to a shocking
      > sudden
      > > realization one can know for once what the true nature of oneself is.
      >
      > But those shocks come by way of sudden reckonings, or perhaps
      > emotional reactions to traumatic occurrances, not by some guru
      > waving his magic fingers at you.
      >
      > > Though in my case deconditioning is still happening, the truth of
      > being is
      > > always known since this happening.
      > > From an exchange on Spiritual Humanism group, a lot of reflectioning
      > has
      > > been happening in the past days, since there seems that many that
      > > apparently are very clear, have not had this 'shocking sudden
      > realization', but
      > > apparently stand on this deconditioning along time as the only
      > means. When I
      > > come to describe what happened in my case, it is as difficult to
      > describe it
      > > from my side as to understand or accept it from the point of view of
      > those
      > > reading the post. So I am coming to accept that talking about this
      > happening
      > > goes nowhere.
      > > The point is, that the fact of not having had the "experience" with its
      > > consequent amazing realization of something so evident that was
      > never seen
      > > before, does not proves the invalidity or impossibility of it.
      > > And here comes the issue of denying.
      > > I have never flight on an Icarus, but I cannot deny the described
      > experiences
      > > of those who had, for the simple reason of not having had the same
      > > experience. I cannot deny.
      > >
      > > So this is why I feel that saying that these and that way or these
      > and that
      > > philosophy is not valid, is improper, and more than that, absolutely
      > unfair.
      > >
      > > Everything is possible. Evidently, not within the thinking process
      > or the
      > > rational limitations, but within existence.
      > >
      > > So why deny anything? If you, Jodi, want to help others see their
      > delusions
      > > and make them open their eyes, is it not possible without denying
      > > possibilities?
      > >
      > > Maria L
      >
      > Because I'm convinced that believing in magical occurrances as
      > a way to establish one in realization work much more against
      > realization rather than for it. This is based on my own
      > experiences and observations. I was a close disciple of
      > one of these "transmission" gurus, and I observed first-hand
      > the fact that it wasn't by magic, but by *belief* in magic
      > that people got their "experiences." I also observed that
      > these experiences were generated at the *suggestion* of the
      > guru *before* he waved his magic fingers. I observed as well
      > that those who wanted to impress the guru had regular
      > experiences, because this pleased the guru to hear. Finally,
      > I observed that the "experiences" had this way were nothing
      > more than fantasies that led to nothing except a kind of
      > pride over having experienced them, which itself led to a
      > false sense of adeptness.
      >
      > I'm not denying the possibility that realization cannot
      > occur in one of these contexts, I'm saying that the model
      > is *imagined* rather than real. It's faith-healing, not
      > magical transmission. The "experiences" these folks get
      > are psychological/emotional, *interpreted* to be spiritual.
      >
      > The Upanishads say it's not a thought, feeling, idea, or
      > experience. Anything you feel is a feeling. Anything
      > you think is a thought. 'This' is neither, and while the
      > direct knowing of 'this' occurs in a context of thought
      > and feeling, those who know it know it has as much to do
      > with either as my dog's ass.


      Thanks, very good reply.

      Maria
    • globe peace
      Hi all, Greetings. I found this link, that narrates the author s experience on meditation - cool and beautiful - http://www.udaypai.net/begin.htm Worth reading
      Message 2 of 21 , May 17 6:02 PM
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        Hi all,

        Greetings. I found this link, that narrates the author's experience on meditation - cool and beautiful -
        http://www.udaypai.net/begin.htm
        Worth reading and we should encourage this guy
        Peace and love

        Martin

        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
        http://mail.yahoo.com

      • Jeff Belyea
        Jody, I m not an advocate of the transmission view, and you know that. I just can t resist jostling your certainty whenever I read your fiery this is
        Message 3 of 21 , May 18 1:08 PM
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          Jody,

          I'm not an advocate of
          the transmission view,
          and you know that. I
          just can't resist jostling
          your "certainty" whenever
          I read your fiery "this is
          nothing more than..."
          attempts to present your
          bitter bluster as objective
          truth.

          That fundamentalists' fungi
          stinks worse than any flight
          of glittery creative rubric
          that goes into the make-up
          of the guru magic show.

          Voltaire, another fiery
          habanero imbiber who
          did his share of singes
          in his time, said,
          "Uncertainly may be
          uncomfortable, but
          certainty is ridiculous."

          Anyway, I love your
          writing style. Even if
          the content is blustery,
          your tenacity is awesome.
          It's like...(another of
          my bruxism-producing
          favorites)...never not
          the case.

          Your relentless pursuit
          of the phoney guru hasn't
          abated for a minute since
          your own Guru Application
          was turned down.

          You even have a handle on
          what constitutes a "real"
          guru? Where are they?
          Who are they?


          Love transmitting
          every minute,

          Jeff

          PS: This has to bring
          Bruce out.



          >
          > I've been in the presence of 4 well-known gurus,
          > and I've seen people practically flipping on the
          > ground like fish over them, but there was never
          > any evidence of anything more than their ideas
          > about the gurus causing anything. If "transmission"
          > was really a legit avenue for realization, why aren't
          > ALL of Amma's devotees realized?
          >
          > Amma's devotees will say because we're not pure
          > enough. And that is the occluding idea which Amma
          > clogs their brains with. The fact is that everyone
          > has it—as you know—they just don't all see it.
          > It has nothing to do with purity and everything to
          > do with a simple lack of recognition. That's what
          > a real guru helps you with. S/he doesn't bathe you
          > in their "divine" light. That's just sales boilerplate
          > to keep the satsang junkies coming. What a real guru
          > does is recognize the Self in the devotee, and gently
          > attempt to put the devotee's attention there.
          >
          > If gurus did that instead of enjoying all the adulation
          > that comes with being thought of as God, a whole lot
          > more of their devotees would actually come to realization,
          > rather than getting stuck in a cul-de-sac of shame and
          > obsessiveness over not being pure enough to know God.
          >
          > That is one of the biggest tragedies wrought by the
          > egregious misinterpretation of Vedanta by the hagio-
          > deluded progenitors of neo Hinduism coming out of
          > India these days.
        • jodyrrr
          ... It s not coming from a bitter place, Jeff, but a frustrated and exasperated one. Frustrated by the many wrong ideas and beliefs about gurus, and
          Message 4 of 21 , May 19 12:16 AM
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
            <jeff@m...> wrote:
            > Jody,
            >
            > I'm not an advocate of
            > the transmission view,
            > and you know that. I
            > just can't resist jostling
            > your "certainty" whenever
            > I read your fiery "this is
            > nothing more than..."
            > attempts to present your
            > bitter bluster as objective
            > truth.

            It's not coming from a bitter place, Jeff,
            but a frustrated and exasperated one.

            Frustrated by the many wrong ideas and
            beliefs about gurus, and exasperated by
            those who believe and promote them.

            > That fundamentalists' fungi
            > stinks worse than any flight
            > of glittery creative rubric
            > that goes into the make-up
            > of the guru magic show.

            Fundamentalist? Not at all, Jeff.
            I'm convinced any path will work,
            including the heaviest guru bhakti
            with the most narcissistic of the
            "divine" among us.

            It's not what you believe (or who
            you are believing in,) it's how you
            believe it.

            I'm not saying that the "magic" can't
            work, I'm that believing in magical
            gurus is not one bit different from
            believing in fairy tales as children.
            And like children waiting to see the
            tooth fairy, many folks get stuck waiting
            for something that will never come, their
            idea of magical enlightenment being the
            primary impediment.

            > Voltaire, another fiery
            > habanero imbiber who
            > did his share of singes
            > in his time, said,
            > "Uncertainly may be
            > uncomfortable, but
            > certainty is ridiculous."

            My "certainty" is much more in how I'm
            sounding rather than what I'm meaning.
            As I said, the whole (ridiculous) magic
            thing can work. It does work. That's
            why it's so successful. But the way it
            works is just like faith-healing. The
            guru doesn't have the power, *you* do.
            You allow yourself to experience your
            *own* power in the presence of a guru,
            because having a guru around allows you
            to believe it will happen.

            > Anyway, I love your
            > writing style. Even if
            > the content is blustery,
            > your tenacity is awesome.
            > It's like...(another of
            > my bruxism-producing
            > favorites)...never not
            > the case.

            I suppose I'm a bit of a broken record
            about these things. Ces't la vie.

            > Your relentless pursuit
            > of the phoney guru hasn't
            > abated for a minute since
            > your own Guru Application
            > was turned down.

            My "relentless pursuit" was going long,
            long before that little debacle. I never
            considered that application valid
            anyway, given the state of mind of the
            manager there. Besides, everyone I respect
            *except* you were out of that comeditragedy
            soon after I left anyway.

            > You even have a handle on
            > what constitutes a "real"
            > guru? Where are they?
            > Who are they?

            Anyone who knows who they are and are *not*
            on any kind of pedestal, whether by their own
            devices or that of their devotees.

            A real guru makes sure his/her people know
            that they are just exactly like them, in the
            same boat of life floating on the same sea
            together. A real guru makes everyone know
            that they are just as divine as anyone else,
            that divinity is right here, right now in
            all of our lives, exclusive of no one.

            --jody

            BTW: I'm heading into the bush for a few days.
            I'll be back online Monday.

            > Love transmitting
            > every minute,
            >
            > Jeff
            >
            > PS: This has to bring
            > Bruce out.
            >
            >
            >
            > >
            > > I've been in the presence of 4 well-known gurus,
            > > and I've seen people practically flipping on the
            > > ground like fish over them, but there was never
            > > any evidence of anything more than their ideas
            > > about the gurus causing anything. If "transmission"
            > > was really a legit avenue for realization, why aren't
            > > ALL of Amma's devotees realized?
            > >
            > > Amma's devotees will say because we're not pure
            > > enough. And that is the occluding idea which Amma
            > > clogs their brains with. The fact is that everyone
            > > has it—as you know—they just don't all see it.
            > > It has nothing to do with purity and everything to
            > > do with a simple lack of recognition. That's what
            > > a real guru helps you with. S/he doesn't bathe you
            > > in their "divine" light. That's just sales boilerplate
            > > to keep the satsang junkies coming. What a real guru
            > > does is recognize the Self in the devotee, and gently
            > > attempt to put the devotee's attention there.
            > >
            > > If gurus did that instead of enjoying all the adulation
            > > that comes with being thought of as God, a whole lot
            > > more of their devotees would actually come to realization,
            > > rather than getting stuck in a cul-de-sac of shame and
            > > obsessiveness over not being pure enough to know God.
            > >
            > > That is one of the biggest tragedies wrought by the
            > > egregious misinterpretation of Vedanta by the hagio-
            > > deluded progenitors of neo Hinduism coming out of
            > > India these days.
          • Jeff Belyea
            Thanks, Jody - Nice response. All is well. Best, Jeff
            Message 5 of 21 , May 19 5:35 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              Thanks, Jody -

              Nice response.

              All is well.

              Best,

              Jeff

              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
              <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
              > <jeff@m...> wrote:
              > > Jody,
              > >
              > > I'm not an advocate of
              > > the transmission view,
              > > and you know that. I
              > > just can't resist jostling
              > > your "certainty" whenever
              > > I read your fiery "this is
              > > nothing more than..."
              > > attempts to present your
              > > bitter bluster as objective
              > > truth.
              >
              > It's not coming from a bitter place, Jeff,
              > but a frustrated and exasperated one.
              >
              > Frustrated by the many wrong ideas and
              > beliefs about gurus, and exasperated by
              > those who believe and promote them.
              >
              > > That fundamentalists' fungi
              > > stinks worse than any flight
              > > of glittery creative rubric
              > > that goes into the make-up
              > > of the guru magic show.
              >
              > Fundamentalist? Not at all, Jeff.
              > I'm convinced any path will work,
              > including the heaviest guru bhakti
              > with the most narcissistic of the
              > "divine" among us.
              >
              > It's not what you believe (or who
              > you are believing in,) it's how you
              > believe it.
              >
              > I'm not saying that the "magic" can't
              > work, I'm that believing in magical
              > gurus is not one bit different from
              > believing in fairy tales as children.
              > And like children waiting to see the
              > tooth fairy, many folks get stuck waiting
              > for something that will never come, their
              > idea of magical enlightenment being the
              > primary impediment.
              >
              > > Voltaire, another fiery
              > > habanero imbiber who
              > > did his share of singes
              > > in his time, said,
              > > "Uncertainly may be
              > > uncomfortable, but
              > > certainty is ridiculous."
              >
              > My "certainty" is much more in how I'm
              > sounding rather than what I'm meaning.
              > As I said, the whole (ridiculous) magic
              > thing can work. It does work. That's
              > why it's so successful. But the way it
              > works is just like faith-healing. The
              > guru doesn't have the power, *you* do.
              > You allow yourself to experience your
              > *own* power in the presence of a guru,
              > because having a guru around allows you
              > to believe it will happen.
              >
              > > Anyway, I love your
              > > writing style. Even if
              > > the content is blustery,
              > > your tenacity is awesome.
              > > It's like...(another of
              > > my bruxism-producing
              > > favorites)...never not
              > > the case.
              >
              > I suppose I'm a bit of a broken record
              > about these things. Ces't la vie.
              >
              > > Your relentless pursuit
              > > of the phoney guru hasn't
              > > abated for a minute since
              > > your own Guru Application
              > > was turned down.
              >
              > My "relentless pursuit" was going long,
              > long before that little debacle. I never
              > considered that application valid
              > anyway, given the state of mind of the
              > manager there. Besides, everyone I respect
              > *except* you were out of that comeditragedy
              > soon after I left anyway.
              >
              > > You even have a handle on
              > > what constitutes a "real"
              > > guru? Where are they?
              > > Who are they?
              >
              > Anyone who knows who they are and are *not*
              > on any kind of pedestal, whether by their own
              > devices or that of their devotees.
              >
              > A real guru makes sure his/her people know
              > that they are just exactly like them, in the
              > same boat of life floating on the same sea
              > together. A real guru makes everyone know
              > that they are just as divine as anyone else,
              > that divinity is right here, right now in
              > all of our lives, exclusive of no one.
              >
              > --jody
              >
              > BTW: I'm heading into the bush for a few days.
              > I'll be back online Monday.
              >
              > > Love transmitting
              > > every minute,
              > >
              > > Jeff
              > >
              > > PS: This has to bring
              > > Bruce out.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > >
              > > > I've been in the presence of 4 well-known gurus,
              > > > and I've seen people practically flipping on the
              > > > ground like fish over them, but there was never
              > > > any evidence of anything more than their ideas
              > > > about the gurus causing anything. If "transmission"
              > > > was really a legit avenue for realization, why aren't
              > > > ALL of Amma's devotees realized?
              > > >
              > > > Amma's devotees will say because we're not pure
              > > > enough. And that is the occluding idea which Amma
              > > > clogs their brains with. The fact is that everyone
              > > > has it—as you know—they just don't all see it.
              > > > It has nothing to do with purity and everything to
              > > > do with a simple lack of recognition. That's what
              > > > a real guru helps you with. S/he doesn't bathe you
              > > > in their "divine" light. That's just sales boilerplate
              > > > to keep the satsang junkies coming. What a real guru
              > > > does is recognize the Self in the devotee, and gently
              > > > attempt to put the devotee's attention there.
              > > >
              > > > If gurus did that instead of enjoying all the adulation
              > > > that comes with being thought of as God, a whole lot
              > > > more of their devotees would actually come to realization,
              > > > rather than getting stuck in a cul-de-sac of shame and
              > > > obsessiveness over not being pure enough to know God.
              > > >
              > > > That is one of the biggest tragedies wrought by the
              > > > egregious misinterpretation of Vedanta by the hagio-
              > > > deluded progenitors of neo Hinduism coming out of
              > > > India these days.
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