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Re: WHAT IS TRANSMISSION ?

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  • jodyrrr
    ... wrote: [snip] ... Actually, I believe Sahaj Marg will work just as good as anything. Included in that anything are the practices listed at
    Message 1 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
      <no_reply@y...> wrote:

      [snip]

      > that both Jodiji and Sri Subhash Naik
      > have good intentions. One seeks to spare others from
      > wasting time on a path that leads to nowhere, and the
      > other to help point out a path they have found to be
      > beneficial.

      Actually, I believe Sahaj Marg will work just as good
      as anything. Included in that anything are the practices
      listed at meditationsociety.org. I'm not doubting that
      it works, just the idea that you have to PAY for it, and
      the idea that it's better than other, more economical
      methods.

      But the thing that really gets my panties knotted is the
      idea that its effacacy is due to a magical transmission that
      comes from a "master." This idea is clearly in the realm
      of magical thinking and is no better than a fairy tale.
      But this fairy tale is being used to promote the practice.

      That's what's BS about it. It's a marketing hook along
      the lines of those used by snake oil salesman. The so-called
      "masters" powers are no more effective than those of my
      dog. The practice may work, but it works by means of
      creating sattvas in the mind, not because some guru
      somewhere is dosing you with a "transmission."

      --jody.

      [snip]
    • jodyrrr
      ... Are you asking me to pipe down, Jeff? I can do that. Perhaps after Subhash begins to refrain from his incessant guru pimping. --jody.
      Message 2 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
        <jeff@m...> wrote:
        > Jody -
        >
        > Are you trying to
        > recreate GR here
        > in peaceful Bob's
        > place, with your
        > fiery vanguard?
        >
        > Have another
        > habanero.
        >
        > With all of love's
        > transmission
        > that one guru
        > can muster,
        >
        > Jeff

        Are you asking me to pipe down, Jeff?

        I can do that. Perhaps after Subhash
        begins to refrain from his incessant
        guru pimping.

        --jody.

        >
        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
        > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
        > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "subhash naik"
        > > <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
        > > > An essential and unique feature of Sahaj Marg is the direct help
        > and
        > > > guidance of the Master in the form of transmission of Divine
        > Energy
        > > (called
        > > > 'PRANAHUTI' IN Sanskrit) from the Master to the aspirant.
        > >
        > > Magical nonsense designed to make your guru rich.
        > >
        > > > When the Divine Energy is transmitted into the heart of the
        > practician
        > > > (abhyasi),the practician is then filled with a force higher than
        > > himself and
        > > > therefore his,evolution or progress becomes very much faster
        > and,in
        > > essence
        > > > is independent of his own capacity for progress.
        > >
        > > Mystifatically ridiculous.
        > >
        > > > Also by the Master's power,the Transmission erases all the past
        > > impressions
        > > > (called samskaras) which we have built up in our minds and that
        > > condition our
        > > > behaviour and existence.When the past impressions are
        > > eradicated,material
        > > > existence falls into its proper place,as does every other facet of
        > > our existence.
        > >
        > > Complete and utter bullshit.
      • medit8ionsociety
        ... Yo Jodyji, I won t address the validity of your labeling Sri Subhash s actions as guru pimping (even though I must admit that the phrase made me laugh),
        Message 3 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
          <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
          > <jeff@m...> wrote:
          > > Jody -
          > >
          > > Are you trying to
          > > recreate GR here
          > > in peaceful Bob's
          > > place, with your
          > > fiery vanguard?
          > >
          > > Have another
          > > habanero.
          > >
          > > With all of love's
          > > transmission
          > > that one guru
          > > can muster,
          > >
          > > Jeff
          >
          > Are you asking me to pipe down, Jeff?
          >
          > I can do that. Perhaps after Subhash
          > begins to refrain from his incessant
          > guru pimping.
          >
          > --jody.
          >
          Yo Jodyji,
          I won't address the validity of your labeling
          Sri Subhash's actions as "guru pimping" (even though
          I must admit that the phrase made me laugh), but
          the adverb/adjective "incessant" might be a bit
          off base. For a while there had been several
          posts a day about Sahaj Marg and when I asked to
          have that limited to one per day, so as to not
          turn this forum excessivly into a Sahaj Marg
          advertisement, Sri Subhash graciously agreed,
          and has continued complying with my request 100%.
          I now feel it right to release him from that limit
          should he care to respond to you. And of course, your
          posts are always welcome and appreciated.
          Peace and blessings,
          Bob
        • jodyrrr
          ... Once every day or so with the same exact content qualifies as incessant in my book. ... It s still advertising at one per day, especially given the static
          Message 4 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
            <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
            > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
            > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
            > > <jeff@m...> wrote:
            > > > Jody -
            > > >
            > > > Are you trying to
            > > > recreate GR here
            > > > in peaceful Bob's
            > > > place, with your
            > > > fiery vanguard?
            > > >
            > > > Have another
            > > > habanero.
            > > >
            > > > With all of love's
            > > > transmission
            > > > that one guru
            > > > can muster,
            > > >
            > > > Jeff
            > >
            > > Are you asking me to pipe down, Jeff?
            > >
            > > I can do that. Perhaps after Subhash
            > > begins to refrain from his incessant
            > > guru pimping.
            > >
            > > --jody.
            > >
            > Yo Jodyji,
            > I won't address the validity of your labeling
            > Sri Subhash's actions as "guru pimping" (even though
            > I must admit that the phrase made me laugh), but
            > the adverb/adjective "incessant" might be a bit
            > off base.

            Once every day or so with the same exact content
            qualifies as incessant in my book.

            > For a while there had been several
            > posts a day about Sahaj Marg and when I asked to
            > have that limited to one per day, so as to not
            > turn this forum excessivly into a Sahaj Marg
            > advertisement, Sri Subhash graciously agreed,
            > and has continued complying with my request 100%.

            It's still advertising at one per day, especially
            given the static content.

            > I now feel it right to release him from that limit
            > should he care to respond to you. And of course, your
            > posts are always welcome and appreciated.
            > Peace and blessings,
            > Bob

            I welcome the opportunity.

            Thanks, Bob.

            --jody.
          • Jeff Belyea
            ... of ... We don t know enough to know whether we know this or not.
            Message 5 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
              <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
              > <jeff@m...> wrote:
              > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "subhash naik"
              > > <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
              > > ...all the past impressions
              > > > (called samskaras) which we have built up in our minds and that
              > > condition our
              > > > behaviour and existence.When the past impressions are
              > > eradicated,material
              > > > existence falls into its proper place,as does every other facet
              of
              > > our existence.
              > >
              > >
              > > Yes, this is a most
              > > beautiful experience.
              > > The essence of it is
              > > written of in many
              > > philosophies, religions
              > > and spiritual traditions.
              > >
              > > When the conditioned
              > > self" gives way to
              > > the "True Self" one
              > > is absolved of all
              > > guilt and anguish -
              > > and everything,
              > > EVERYTHING, falls
              > > into place.
              > >
              > > The absolved one now
              > > faces existence in a
              > > whole new light, as
              > > a whole new being.
              > >
              > > "You shall know the
              > > Truth, and The Truth
              > > shall set you free."
              > >
              > > And, as The Tao says,
              > > "If it wasn't bullshit
              > > to the conditioned mind,
              > > it wouldn't be The Way."
              >
              > That's all well and good. But the idea that
              > this happens by way of a magical transferrence
              > of some kind of mystical energy is bullshit.
              >
              > It happens over time by way of deconditioning
              > and added clarity brought about by meditation.
              >
              > You don't get something for nothing, and there's
              > no magical powers to do it for you.

              We don't know enough
              to know whether we
              know this or not.
            • Jeff Belyea
              ... Bob addressed it well. Having received his transmission, I will simply open a window when your literary lurches, propelled by habanero lunch, reach the
              Message 6 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                > > Jody -
                > >
                > > Are you trying to
                > > recreate GR here
                > > in peaceful Bob's
                > > place, with your
                > > fiery vanguard?
                > >
                > > Have another
                > > habanero.
                > >
                > > With all of love's
                > > transmission
                > > that one guru
                > > can muster,
                > >
                > > Jeff
                >
                > Are you asking me to pipe down, Jeff?
                >
                > I can do that. Perhaps after Subhash
                > begins to refrain from his incessant
                > guru pimping.
                >
                > --jody.
                >

                Bob addressed it well.

                Having received his
                transmission, I will
                simply open a window
                when your literary
                lurches, propelled by
                habanero lunch, reach
                the launchpad of
                digestive release.

                In an earlier incarnation,
                weren't you the one
                who poo-pooed the
                theory of flight,
                breaking the 4-minute
                mile barrier, and the
                very idea of transmitting
                pictures over a cable?


                10

                9

                8

                7

                6

                ...open window.
              • jodyrrr
                ... That s what the magic apologists like to say. How can you know that you know. Because I can find a more likely explantion that doesn t resort to
                Message 7 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                  <jeff@m...> wrote:
                  > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                  > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                  > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                  > > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                  > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "subhash naik"
                  > > > <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
                  > > > ...all the past impressions
                  > > > > (called samskaras) which we have built up in our minds and that
                  > > > condition our
                  > > > > behaviour and existence.When the past impressions are
                  > > > eradicated,material
                  > > > > existence falls into its proper place,as does every other facet
                  > of
                  > > > our existence.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Yes, this is a most
                  > > > beautiful experience.
                  > > > The essence of it is
                  > > > written of in many
                  > > > philosophies, religions
                  > > > and spiritual traditions.
                  > > >
                  > > > When the conditioned
                  > > > self" gives way to
                  > > > the "True Self" one
                  > > > is absolved of all
                  > > > guilt and anguish -
                  > > > and everything,
                  > > > EVERYTHING, falls
                  > > > into place.
                  > > >
                  > > > The absolved one now
                  > > > faces existence in a
                  > > > whole new light, as
                  > > > a whole new being.
                  > > >
                  > > > "You shall know the
                  > > > Truth, and The Truth
                  > > > shall set you free."
                  > > >
                  > > > And, as The Tao says,
                  > > > "If it wasn't bullshit
                  > > > to the conditioned mind,
                  > > > it wouldn't be The Way."
                  > >
                  > > That's all well and good. But the idea that
                  > > this happens by way of a magical transferrence
                  > > of some kind of mystical energy is bullshit.
                  > >
                  > > It happens over time by way of deconditioning
                  > > and added clarity brought about by meditation.
                  > >
                  > > You don't get something for nothing, and there's
                  > > no magical powers to do it for you.
                  >
                  > We don't know enough
                  > to know whether we
                  > know this or not.

                  That's what the magic apologists like to say.

                  "How can you know that you know."

                  Because I can find a more likely explantion
                  that doesn't resort to mystified nonsense.
                  And because *anything* in the realm of magical
                  is *always* phenomenological. So, two people
                  will experience their "magic" in completely
                  different ways. This puts such phenomena
                  squarely in the category 'imaginal,' IOW,
                  made up.

                  If someone gets a cold, they're likely to
                  believe it came from a germ rather
                  than believing a curse was set upon them.

                  But as soon as a "divine" guru enters the
                  equation, all reason flies right out the window,
                  and normally rational folk are prepared to
                  believe all kinds of utter nonsense. Just
                  hang out at an Amma satsang to catch a
                  glimpse.

                  It's a form of infantilism that pollutes
                  spiritual culture like a plague of ignorance.

                  And it keeps people from seeing the truth of
                  their own being, because they are taught to
                  believe it only comes by way of the magic
                  "transmissions" of their guru. It may as
                  well be a nocturnal emmission. At least then
                  you are getting something real, if not icky
                  and sticky and gross.
                • jodyrrr
                  ... That s a reverse metaphor, Jeff. You are talking of the progression from magic to rational with these examples. Observing birds in flight, I can imagine
                  Message 8 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                    <jeff@m...> wrote:
                    > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                    > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                    > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                    > > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                    > > > Jody -
                    > > >
                    > > > Are you trying to
                    > > > recreate GR here
                    > > > in peaceful Bob's
                    > > > place, with your
                    > > > fiery vanguard?
                    > > >
                    > > > Have another
                    > > > habanero.
                    > > >
                    > > > With all of love's
                    > > > transmission
                    > > > that one guru
                    > > > can muster,
                    > > >
                    > > > Jeff
                    > >
                    > > Are you asking me to pipe down, Jeff?
                    > >
                    > > I can do that. Perhaps after Subhash
                    > > begins to refrain from his incessant
                    > > guru pimping.
                    > >
                    > > --jody.
                    > >
                    >
                    > Bob addressed it well.
                    >
                    > Having received his
                    > transmission, I will
                    > simply open a window
                    > when your literary
                    > lurches, propelled by
                    > habanero lunch, reach
                    > the launchpad of
                    > digestive release.
                    >
                    > In an earlier incarnation,
                    > weren't you the one
                    > who poo-pooed the
                    > theory of flight,
                    > breaking the 4-minute
                    > mile barrier, and the
                    > very idea of transmitting
                    > pictures over a cable?
                    >
                    >
                    > 10
                    >
                    > 9
                    >
                    > 8
                    >
                    > 7
                    >
                    > 6
                    >
                    > ...open window.

                    That's a reverse metaphor, Jeff.

                    You are talking of the progression from
                    magic to rational with these examples.

                    Observing birds in flight, I can imagine
                    men one day doing so.

                    Seeing men going faster and faster, I can
                    imagine a 4-minute mile.

                    Seeing a photograph and knowing of the
                    telegraph, I can imagine pictures over cable.

                    But not seeing anything like a "transmission"
                    from a guru, and only having my subjective
                    interpretation of my experience, and the
                    subjective interpretation of others' experience,
                    and knowing that these interpretations are almost
                    always completely different from one another;
                    I'm making a huge, irrational leap to believe
                    that such is occurring in the light of a more
                    simple explanation, that the so-called "transmitted"
                    experiences are nothing more than self-suggested
                    wish fulfillment.

                    I've been in the presence of 4 well-known gurus,
                    and I've seen people practically flipping on the
                    ground like fish over them, but there was never
                    any evidence of anything more than their ideas
                    about the gurus causing anything. If "transmission"
                    was really a legit avenue for realization, why aren't
                    ALL of Amma's devotees realized?

                    Amma's devotees will say because we're not pure
                    enough. And that is the occluding idea which Amma
                    clogs their brains with. The fact is that everyone
                    has it—as you know—they just don't all see it.
                    It has nothing to do with purity and everything to
                    do with a simple lack of recognition. That's what
                    a real guru helps you with. S/he doesn't bathe you
                    in their "divine" light. That's just sales boilerplate
                    to keep the satsang junkies coming. What a real guru
                    does is recognize the Self in the devotee, and gently
                    attempt to put the devotee's attention there.

                    If gurus did that instead of enjoying all the adulation
                    that comes with being thought of as God, a whole lot
                    more of their devotees would actually come to realization,
                    rather than getting stuck in a cul-de-sac of shame and
                    obsessiveness over not being pure enough to know God.

                    That is one of the biggest tragedies wrought by the
                    egregious misinterpretation of Vedanta by the hagio-
                    deluded progenitors of neo Hinduism coming out of
                    India these days.
                  • ser_el_ser
                    ... Hello Jeff and Jodi, I would like to enter here. Though I agree with Jodi that It happens over time by way of deconditioning and added clarity brought
                    Message 9 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea" <jeff@
                      m...> wrote:
                      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                      > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                      > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                      > > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                      > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "subhash naik"
                      > > > <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
                      > > > ...all the past impressions
                      > > > > (called samskaras) which we have built up in our minds and that
                      > > > condition our
                      > > > > behaviour and existence.When the past impressions are
                      > > > eradicated,material
                      > > > > existence falls into its proper place,as does every other facet
                      > of
                      > > > our existence.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Yes, this is a most
                      > > > beautiful experience.
                      > > > The essence of it is
                      > > > written of in many
                      > > > philosophies, religions
                      > > > and spiritual traditions.
                      > > >
                      > > > When the conditioned
                      > > > self" gives way to
                      > > > the "True Self" one
                      > > > is absolved of all
                      > > > guilt and anguish -
                      > > > and everything,
                      > > > EVERYTHING, falls
                      > > > into place.
                      > > >
                      > > > The absolved one now
                      > > > faces existence in a
                      > > > whole new light, as
                      > > > a whole new being.
                      > > >
                      > > > "You shall know the
                      > > > Truth, and The Truth
                      > > > shall set you free."
                      > > >
                      > > > And, as The Tao says,
                      > > > "If it wasn't bullshit
                      > > > to the conditioned mind,
                      > > > it wouldn't be The Way."
                      > >
                      > > That's all well and good. But the idea that
                      > > this happens by way of a magical transferrence
                      > > of some kind of mystical energy is bullshit.
                      > >
                      > > It happens over time by way of deconditioning
                      > > and added clarity brought about by meditation.
                      > >
                      > > You don't get something for nothing, and there's
                      > > no magical powers to do it for you.
                      >
                      > We don't know enough
                      > to know whether we
                      > know this or not.

                      Hello Jeff and Jodi,

                      I would like to enter here.
                      Though I agree with Jodi that "It happens over time by way of deconditioning
                      and added clarity brought about by meditation" in the sense that
                      understanding comes with time, I also know that thanks to a shocking sudden
                      realization one can know for once what the true nature of oneself is.
                      Though in my case deconditioning is still happening, the truth of being is
                      always known since this happening.
                      From an exchange on Spiritual Humanism group, a lot of reflectioning has
                      been happening in the past days, since there seems that many that
                      apparently are very clear, have not had this 'shocking sudden realization', but
                      apparently stand on this deconditioning along time as the only means. When I
                      come to describe what happened in my case, it is as difficult to describe it
                      from my side as to understand or accept it from the point of view of those
                      reading the post. So I am coming to accept that talking about this happening
                      goes nowhere.
                      The point is, that the fact of not having had the "experience" with its
                      consequent amazing realization of something so evident that was never seen
                      before, does not proves the invalidity or impossibility of it.
                      And here comes the issue of denying.
                      I have never flight on an Icarus, but I cannot deny the described experiences
                      of those who had, for the simple reason of not having had the same
                      experience. I cannot deny.

                      So this is why I feel that saying that these and that way or these and that
                      philosophy is not valid, is improper, and more than that, absolutely unfair.

                      Everything is possible. Evidently, not within the thinking process or the
                      rational limitations, but within existence.

                      So why deny anything? If you, Jodi, want to help others see their delusions
                      and make them open their eyes, is it not possible without denying
                      possibilities?

                      Maria L
                    • jodyrrr
                      ... deconditioning ... sudden ... But those shocks come by way of sudden reckonings, or perhaps emotional reactions to traumatic occurrances, not by some guru
                      Message 10 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "ser_el_ser"
                        <ser_el_ser@y...> wrote:
                        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea" <jeff@
                        > m...> wrote:
                        > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                        > > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                        > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                        > > > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                        > > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "subhash naik"
                        > > > > <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
                        > > > > ...all the past impressions
                        > > > > > (called samskaras) which we have built up in our minds and that
                        > > > > condition our
                        > > > > > behaviour and existence.When the past impressions are
                        > > > > eradicated,material
                        > > > > > existence falls into its proper place,as does every other facet
                        > > of
                        > > > > our existence.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Yes, this is a most
                        > > > > beautiful experience.
                        > > > > The essence of it is
                        > > > > written of in many
                        > > > > philosophies, religions
                        > > > > and spiritual traditions.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > When the conditioned
                        > > > > self" gives way to
                        > > > > the "True Self" one
                        > > > > is absolved of all
                        > > > > guilt and anguish -
                        > > > > and everything,
                        > > > > EVERYTHING, falls
                        > > > > into place.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > The absolved one now
                        > > > > faces existence in a
                        > > > > whole new light, as
                        > > > > a whole new being.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > "You shall know the
                        > > > > Truth, and The Truth
                        > > > > shall set you free."
                        > > > >
                        > > > > And, as The Tao says,
                        > > > > "If it wasn't bullshit
                        > > > > to the conditioned mind,
                        > > > > it wouldn't be The Way."
                        > > >
                        > > > That's all well and good. But the idea that
                        > > > this happens by way of a magical transferrence
                        > > > of some kind of mystical energy is bullshit.
                        > > >
                        > > > It happens over time by way of deconditioning
                        > > > and added clarity brought about by meditation.
                        > > >
                        > > > You don't get something for nothing, and there's
                        > > > no magical powers to do it for you.
                        > >
                        > > We don't know enough
                        > > to know whether we
                        > > know this or not.
                        >
                        > Hello Jeff and Jodi,
                        >
                        > I would like to enter here.
                        > Though I agree with Jodi that "It happens over time by way of
                        deconditioning
                        > and added clarity brought about by meditation" in the sense that
                        > understanding comes with time, I also know that thanks to a shocking
                        sudden
                        > realization one can know for once what the true nature of oneself is.

                        But those shocks come by way of sudden reckonings, or perhaps
                        emotional reactions to traumatic occurrances, not by some guru
                        waving his magic fingers at you.

                        > Though in my case deconditioning is still happening, the truth of
                        being is
                        > always known since this happening.
                        > From an exchange on Spiritual Humanism group, a lot of reflectioning
                        has
                        > been happening in the past days, since there seems that many that
                        > apparently are very clear, have not had this 'shocking sudden
                        realization', but
                        > apparently stand on this deconditioning along time as the only
                        means. When I
                        > come to describe what happened in my case, it is as difficult to
                        describe it
                        > from my side as to understand or accept it from the point of view of
                        those
                        > reading the post. So I am coming to accept that talking about this
                        happening
                        > goes nowhere.
                        > The point is, that the fact of not having had the "experience" with its
                        > consequent amazing realization of something so evident that was
                        never seen
                        > before, does not proves the invalidity or impossibility of it.
                        > And here comes the issue of denying.
                        > I have never flight on an Icarus, but I cannot deny the described
                        experiences
                        > of those who had, for the simple reason of not having had the same
                        > experience. I cannot deny.
                        >
                        > So this is why I feel that saying that these and that way or these
                        and that
                        > philosophy is not valid, is improper, and more than that, absolutely
                        unfair.
                        >
                        > Everything is possible. Evidently, not within the thinking process
                        or the
                        > rational limitations, but within existence.
                        >
                        > So why deny anything? If you, Jodi, want to help others see their
                        delusions
                        > and make them open their eyes, is it not possible without denying
                        > possibilities?
                        >
                        > Maria L

                        Because I'm convinced that believing in magical occurrances as
                        a way to establish one in realization work much more against
                        realization rather than for it. This is based on my own
                        experiences and observations. I was a close disciple of
                        one of these "transmission" gurus, and I observed first-hand
                        the fact that it wasn't by magic, but by *belief* in magic
                        that people got their "experiences." I also observed that
                        these experiences were generated at the *suggestion* of the
                        guru *before* he waved his magic fingers. I observed as well
                        that those who wanted to impress the guru had regular
                        experiences, because this pleased the guru to hear. Finally,
                        I observed that the "experiences" had this way were nothing
                        more than fantasies that led to nothing except a kind of
                        pride over having experienced them, which itself led to a
                        false sense of adeptness.

                        I'm not denying the possibility that realization cannot
                        occur in one of these contexts, I'm saying that the model
                        is *imagined* rather than real. It's faith-healing, not
                        magical transmission. The "experiences" these folks get
                        are psychological/emotional, *interpreted* to be spiritual.

                        The Upanishads say it's not a thought, feeling, idea, or
                        experience. Anything you feel is a feeling. Anything
                        you think is a thought. 'This' is neither, and while the
                        direct knowing of 'this' occurs in a context of thought
                        and feeling, those who know it know it has as much to do
                        with either as my dog's ass.
                      • ser_el_ser
                        ... Thanks, very good reply. Maria
                        Message 11 of 21 , May 17, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          ....snip
                          > >
                          > > Hello Jeff and Jodi,
                          > >
                          > > I would like to enter here.
                          > > Though I agree with Jodi that "It happens over time by way of
                          > deconditioning
                          > > and added clarity brought about by meditation" in the sense that
                          > > understanding comes with time, I also know that thanks to a shocking
                          > sudden
                          > > realization one can know for once what the true nature of oneself is.
                          >
                          > But those shocks come by way of sudden reckonings, or perhaps
                          > emotional reactions to traumatic occurrances, not by some guru
                          > waving his magic fingers at you.
                          >
                          > > Though in my case deconditioning is still happening, the truth of
                          > being is
                          > > always known since this happening.
                          > > From an exchange on Spiritual Humanism group, a lot of reflectioning
                          > has
                          > > been happening in the past days, since there seems that many that
                          > > apparently are very clear, have not had this 'shocking sudden
                          > realization', but
                          > > apparently stand on this deconditioning along time as the only
                          > means. When I
                          > > come to describe what happened in my case, it is as difficult to
                          > describe it
                          > > from my side as to understand or accept it from the point of view of
                          > those
                          > > reading the post. So I am coming to accept that talking about this
                          > happening
                          > > goes nowhere.
                          > > The point is, that the fact of not having had the "experience" with its
                          > > consequent amazing realization of something so evident that was
                          > never seen
                          > > before, does not proves the invalidity or impossibility of it.
                          > > And here comes the issue of denying.
                          > > I have never flight on an Icarus, but I cannot deny the described
                          > experiences
                          > > of those who had, for the simple reason of not having had the same
                          > > experience. I cannot deny.
                          > >
                          > > So this is why I feel that saying that these and that way or these
                          > and that
                          > > philosophy is not valid, is improper, and more than that, absolutely
                          > unfair.
                          > >
                          > > Everything is possible. Evidently, not within the thinking process
                          > or the
                          > > rational limitations, but within existence.
                          > >
                          > > So why deny anything? If you, Jodi, want to help others see their
                          > delusions
                          > > and make them open their eyes, is it not possible without denying
                          > > possibilities?
                          > >
                          > > Maria L
                          >
                          > Because I'm convinced that believing in magical occurrances as
                          > a way to establish one in realization work much more against
                          > realization rather than for it. This is based on my own
                          > experiences and observations. I was a close disciple of
                          > one of these "transmission" gurus, and I observed first-hand
                          > the fact that it wasn't by magic, but by *belief* in magic
                          > that people got their "experiences." I also observed that
                          > these experiences were generated at the *suggestion* of the
                          > guru *before* he waved his magic fingers. I observed as well
                          > that those who wanted to impress the guru had regular
                          > experiences, because this pleased the guru to hear. Finally,
                          > I observed that the "experiences" had this way were nothing
                          > more than fantasies that led to nothing except a kind of
                          > pride over having experienced them, which itself led to a
                          > false sense of adeptness.
                          >
                          > I'm not denying the possibility that realization cannot
                          > occur in one of these contexts, I'm saying that the model
                          > is *imagined* rather than real. It's faith-healing, not
                          > magical transmission. The "experiences" these folks get
                          > are psychological/emotional, *interpreted* to be spiritual.
                          >
                          > The Upanishads say it's not a thought, feeling, idea, or
                          > experience. Anything you feel is a feeling. Anything
                          > you think is a thought. 'This' is neither, and while the
                          > direct knowing of 'this' occurs in a context of thought
                          > and feeling, those who know it know it has as much to do
                          > with either as my dog's ass.


                          Thanks, very good reply.

                          Maria
                        • globe peace
                          Hi all, Greetings. I found this link, that narrates the author s experience on meditation - cool and beautiful - http://www.udaypai.net/begin.htm Worth reading
                          Message 12 of 21 , May 17, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment

                            Hi all,

                            Greetings. I found this link, that narrates the author's experience on meditation - cool and beautiful -
                            http://www.udaypai.net/begin.htm
                            Worth reading and we should encourage this guy
                            Peace and love

                            Martin

                            __________________________________________________
                            Do You Yahoo!?
                            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                            http://mail.yahoo.com

                          • Jeff Belyea
                            Jody, I m not an advocate of the transmission view, and you know that. I just can t resist jostling your certainty whenever I read your fiery this is
                            Message 13 of 21 , May 18, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Jody,

                              I'm not an advocate of
                              the transmission view,
                              and you know that. I
                              just can't resist jostling
                              your "certainty" whenever
                              I read your fiery "this is
                              nothing more than..."
                              attempts to present your
                              bitter bluster as objective
                              truth.

                              That fundamentalists' fungi
                              stinks worse than any flight
                              of glittery creative rubric
                              that goes into the make-up
                              of the guru magic show.

                              Voltaire, another fiery
                              habanero imbiber who
                              did his share of singes
                              in his time, said,
                              "Uncertainly may be
                              uncomfortable, but
                              certainty is ridiculous."

                              Anyway, I love your
                              writing style. Even if
                              the content is blustery,
                              your tenacity is awesome.
                              It's like...(another of
                              my bruxism-producing
                              favorites)...never not
                              the case.

                              Your relentless pursuit
                              of the phoney guru hasn't
                              abated for a minute since
                              your own Guru Application
                              was turned down.

                              You even have a handle on
                              what constitutes a "real"
                              guru? Where are they?
                              Who are they?


                              Love transmitting
                              every minute,

                              Jeff

                              PS: This has to bring
                              Bruce out.



                              >
                              > I've been in the presence of 4 well-known gurus,
                              > and I've seen people practically flipping on the
                              > ground like fish over them, but there was never
                              > any evidence of anything more than their ideas
                              > about the gurus causing anything. If "transmission"
                              > was really a legit avenue for realization, why aren't
                              > ALL of Amma's devotees realized?
                              >
                              > Amma's devotees will say because we're not pure
                              > enough. And that is the occluding idea which Amma
                              > clogs their brains with. The fact is that everyone
                              > has it—as you know—they just don't all see it.
                              > It has nothing to do with purity and everything to
                              > do with a simple lack of recognition. That's what
                              > a real guru helps you with. S/he doesn't bathe you
                              > in their "divine" light. That's just sales boilerplate
                              > to keep the satsang junkies coming. What a real guru
                              > does is recognize the Self in the devotee, and gently
                              > attempt to put the devotee's attention there.
                              >
                              > If gurus did that instead of enjoying all the adulation
                              > that comes with being thought of as God, a whole lot
                              > more of their devotees would actually come to realization,
                              > rather than getting stuck in a cul-de-sac of shame and
                              > obsessiveness over not being pure enough to know God.
                              >
                              > That is one of the biggest tragedies wrought by the
                              > egregious misinterpretation of Vedanta by the hagio-
                              > deluded progenitors of neo Hinduism coming out of
                              > India these days.
                            • jodyrrr
                              ... It s not coming from a bitter place, Jeff, but a frustrated and exasperated one. Frustrated by the many wrong ideas and beliefs about gurus, and
                              Message 14 of 21 , May 19, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                                <jeff@m...> wrote:
                                > Jody,
                                >
                                > I'm not an advocate of
                                > the transmission view,
                                > and you know that. I
                                > just can't resist jostling
                                > your "certainty" whenever
                                > I read your fiery "this is
                                > nothing more than..."
                                > attempts to present your
                                > bitter bluster as objective
                                > truth.

                                It's not coming from a bitter place, Jeff,
                                but a frustrated and exasperated one.

                                Frustrated by the many wrong ideas and
                                beliefs about gurus, and exasperated by
                                those who believe and promote them.

                                > That fundamentalists' fungi
                                > stinks worse than any flight
                                > of glittery creative rubric
                                > that goes into the make-up
                                > of the guru magic show.

                                Fundamentalist? Not at all, Jeff.
                                I'm convinced any path will work,
                                including the heaviest guru bhakti
                                with the most narcissistic of the
                                "divine" among us.

                                It's not what you believe (or who
                                you are believing in,) it's how you
                                believe it.

                                I'm not saying that the "magic" can't
                                work, I'm that believing in magical
                                gurus is not one bit different from
                                believing in fairy tales as children.
                                And like children waiting to see the
                                tooth fairy, many folks get stuck waiting
                                for something that will never come, their
                                idea of magical enlightenment being the
                                primary impediment.

                                > Voltaire, another fiery
                                > habanero imbiber who
                                > did his share of singes
                                > in his time, said,
                                > "Uncertainly may be
                                > uncomfortable, but
                                > certainty is ridiculous."

                                My "certainty" is much more in how I'm
                                sounding rather than what I'm meaning.
                                As I said, the whole (ridiculous) magic
                                thing can work. It does work. That's
                                why it's so successful. But the way it
                                works is just like faith-healing. The
                                guru doesn't have the power, *you* do.
                                You allow yourself to experience your
                                *own* power in the presence of a guru,
                                because having a guru around allows you
                                to believe it will happen.

                                > Anyway, I love your
                                > writing style. Even if
                                > the content is blustery,
                                > your tenacity is awesome.
                                > It's like...(another of
                                > my bruxism-producing
                                > favorites)...never not
                                > the case.

                                I suppose I'm a bit of a broken record
                                about these things. Ces't la vie.

                                > Your relentless pursuit
                                > of the phoney guru hasn't
                                > abated for a minute since
                                > your own Guru Application
                                > was turned down.

                                My "relentless pursuit" was going long,
                                long before that little debacle. I never
                                considered that application valid
                                anyway, given the state of mind of the
                                manager there. Besides, everyone I respect
                                *except* you were out of that comeditragedy
                                soon after I left anyway.

                                > You even have a handle on
                                > what constitutes a "real"
                                > guru? Where are they?
                                > Who are they?

                                Anyone who knows who they are and are *not*
                                on any kind of pedestal, whether by their own
                                devices or that of their devotees.

                                A real guru makes sure his/her people know
                                that they are just exactly like them, in the
                                same boat of life floating on the same sea
                                together. A real guru makes everyone know
                                that they are just as divine as anyone else,
                                that divinity is right here, right now in
                                all of our lives, exclusive of no one.

                                --jody

                                BTW: I'm heading into the bush for a few days.
                                I'll be back online Monday.

                                > Love transmitting
                                > every minute,
                                >
                                > Jeff
                                >
                                > PS: This has to bring
                                > Bruce out.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > >
                                > > I've been in the presence of 4 well-known gurus,
                                > > and I've seen people practically flipping on the
                                > > ground like fish over them, but there was never
                                > > any evidence of anything more than their ideas
                                > > about the gurus causing anything. If "transmission"
                                > > was really a legit avenue for realization, why aren't
                                > > ALL of Amma's devotees realized?
                                > >
                                > > Amma's devotees will say because we're not pure
                                > > enough. And that is the occluding idea which Amma
                                > > clogs their brains with. The fact is that everyone
                                > > has it—as you know—they just don't all see it.
                                > > It has nothing to do with purity and everything to
                                > > do with a simple lack of recognition. That's what
                                > > a real guru helps you with. S/he doesn't bathe you
                                > > in their "divine" light. That's just sales boilerplate
                                > > to keep the satsang junkies coming. What a real guru
                                > > does is recognize the Self in the devotee, and gently
                                > > attempt to put the devotee's attention there.
                                > >
                                > > If gurus did that instead of enjoying all the adulation
                                > > that comes with being thought of as God, a whole lot
                                > > more of their devotees would actually come to realization,
                                > > rather than getting stuck in a cul-de-sac of shame and
                                > > obsessiveness over not being pure enough to know God.
                                > >
                                > > That is one of the biggest tragedies wrought by the
                                > > egregious misinterpretation of Vedanta by the hagio-
                                > > deluded progenitors of neo Hinduism coming out of
                                > > India these days.
                              • Jeff Belyea
                                Thanks, Jody - Nice response. All is well. Best, Jeff
                                Message 15 of 21 , May 19, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Thanks, Jody -

                                  Nice response.

                                  All is well.

                                  Best,

                                  Jeff

                                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                  <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                  > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                                  > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                                  > > Jody,
                                  > >
                                  > > I'm not an advocate of
                                  > > the transmission view,
                                  > > and you know that. I
                                  > > just can't resist jostling
                                  > > your "certainty" whenever
                                  > > I read your fiery "this is
                                  > > nothing more than..."
                                  > > attempts to present your
                                  > > bitter bluster as objective
                                  > > truth.
                                  >
                                  > It's not coming from a bitter place, Jeff,
                                  > but a frustrated and exasperated one.
                                  >
                                  > Frustrated by the many wrong ideas and
                                  > beliefs about gurus, and exasperated by
                                  > those who believe and promote them.
                                  >
                                  > > That fundamentalists' fungi
                                  > > stinks worse than any flight
                                  > > of glittery creative rubric
                                  > > that goes into the make-up
                                  > > of the guru magic show.
                                  >
                                  > Fundamentalist? Not at all, Jeff.
                                  > I'm convinced any path will work,
                                  > including the heaviest guru bhakti
                                  > with the most narcissistic of the
                                  > "divine" among us.
                                  >
                                  > It's not what you believe (or who
                                  > you are believing in,) it's how you
                                  > believe it.
                                  >
                                  > I'm not saying that the "magic" can't
                                  > work, I'm that believing in magical
                                  > gurus is not one bit different from
                                  > believing in fairy tales as children.
                                  > And like children waiting to see the
                                  > tooth fairy, many folks get stuck waiting
                                  > for something that will never come, their
                                  > idea of magical enlightenment being the
                                  > primary impediment.
                                  >
                                  > > Voltaire, another fiery
                                  > > habanero imbiber who
                                  > > did his share of singes
                                  > > in his time, said,
                                  > > "Uncertainly may be
                                  > > uncomfortable, but
                                  > > certainty is ridiculous."
                                  >
                                  > My "certainty" is much more in how I'm
                                  > sounding rather than what I'm meaning.
                                  > As I said, the whole (ridiculous) magic
                                  > thing can work. It does work. That's
                                  > why it's so successful. But the way it
                                  > works is just like faith-healing. The
                                  > guru doesn't have the power, *you* do.
                                  > You allow yourself to experience your
                                  > *own* power in the presence of a guru,
                                  > because having a guru around allows you
                                  > to believe it will happen.
                                  >
                                  > > Anyway, I love your
                                  > > writing style. Even if
                                  > > the content is blustery,
                                  > > your tenacity is awesome.
                                  > > It's like...(another of
                                  > > my bruxism-producing
                                  > > favorites)...never not
                                  > > the case.
                                  >
                                  > I suppose I'm a bit of a broken record
                                  > about these things. Ces't la vie.
                                  >
                                  > > Your relentless pursuit
                                  > > of the phoney guru hasn't
                                  > > abated for a minute since
                                  > > your own Guru Application
                                  > > was turned down.
                                  >
                                  > My "relentless pursuit" was going long,
                                  > long before that little debacle. I never
                                  > considered that application valid
                                  > anyway, given the state of mind of the
                                  > manager there. Besides, everyone I respect
                                  > *except* you were out of that comeditragedy
                                  > soon after I left anyway.
                                  >
                                  > > You even have a handle on
                                  > > what constitutes a "real"
                                  > > guru? Where are they?
                                  > > Who are they?
                                  >
                                  > Anyone who knows who they are and are *not*
                                  > on any kind of pedestal, whether by their own
                                  > devices or that of their devotees.
                                  >
                                  > A real guru makes sure his/her people know
                                  > that they are just exactly like them, in the
                                  > same boat of life floating on the same sea
                                  > together. A real guru makes everyone know
                                  > that they are just as divine as anyone else,
                                  > that divinity is right here, right now in
                                  > all of our lives, exclusive of no one.
                                  >
                                  > --jody
                                  >
                                  > BTW: I'm heading into the bush for a few days.
                                  > I'll be back online Monday.
                                  >
                                  > > Love transmitting
                                  > > every minute,
                                  > >
                                  > > Jeff
                                  > >
                                  > > PS: This has to bring
                                  > > Bruce out.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I've been in the presence of 4 well-known gurus,
                                  > > > and I've seen people practically flipping on the
                                  > > > ground like fish over them, but there was never
                                  > > > any evidence of anything more than their ideas
                                  > > > about the gurus causing anything. If "transmission"
                                  > > > was really a legit avenue for realization, why aren't
                                  > > > ALL of Amma's devotees realized?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Amma's devotees will say because we're not pure
                                  > > > enough. And that is the occluding idea which Amma
                                  > > > clogs their brains with. The fact is that everyone
                                  > > > has it—as you know—they just don't all see it.
                                  > > > It has nothing to do with purity and everything to
                                  > > > do with a simple lack of recognition. That's what
                                  > > > a real guru helps you with. S/he doesn't bathe you
                                  > > > in their "divine" light. That's just sales boilerplate
                                  > > > to keep the satsang junkies coming. What a real guru
                                  > > > does is recognize the Self in the devotee, and gently
                                  > > > attempt to put the devotee's attention there.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > If gurus did that instead of enjoying all the adulation
                                  > > > that comes with being thought of as God, a whole lot
                                  > > > more of their devotees would actually come to realization,
                                  > > > rather than getting stuck in a cul-de-sac of shame and
                                  > > > obsessiveness over not being pure enough to know God.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > That is one of the biggest tragedies wrought by the
                                  > > > egregious misinterpretation of Vedanta by the hagio-
                                  > > > deluded progenitors of neo Hinduism coming out of
                                  > > > India these days.
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