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Re: WHAT IS TRANSMISSION ?

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  • jodyrrr
    ... That s all well and good. But the idea that this happens by way of a magical transferrence of some kind of mystical energy is bullshit. It happens over
    Message 1 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
      <jeff@m...> wrote:
      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "subhash naik"
      > <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
      > ...all the past impressions
      > > (called samskaras) which we have built up in our minds and that
      > condition our
      > > behaviour and existence.When the past impressions are
      > eradicated,material
      > > existence falls into its proper place,as does every other facet of
      > our existence.
      >
      >
      > Yes, this is a most
      > beautiful experience.
      > The essence of it is
      > written of in many
      > philosophies, religions
      > and spiritual traditions.
      >
      > When the conditioned
      > self" gives way to
      > the "True Self" one
      > is absolved of all
      > guilt and anguish -
      > and everything,
      > EVERYTHING, falls
      > into place.
      >
      > The absolved one now
      > faces existence in a
      > whole new light, as
      > a whole new being.
      >
      > "You shall know the
      > Truth, and The Truth
      > shall set you free."
      >
      > And, as The Tao says,
      > "If it wasn't bullshit
      > to the conditioned mind,
      > it wouldn't be The Way."

      That's all well and good. But the idea that
      this happens by way of a magical transferrence
      of some kind of mystical energy is bullshit.

      It happens over time by way of deconditioning
      and added clarity brought about by meditation.

      You don't get something for nothing, and there's
      no magical powers to do it for you.
    • jodyrrr
      ... wrote: [snip] ... Actually, I believe Sahaj Marg will work just as good as anything. Included in that anything are the practices listed at
      Message 2 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
        <no_reply@y...> wrote:

        [snip]

        > that both Jodiji and Sri Subhash Naik
        > have good intentions. One seeks to spare others from
        > wasting time on a path that leads to nowhere, and the
        > other to help point out a path they have found to be
        > beneficial.

        Actually, I believe Sahaj Marg will work just as good
        as anything. Included in that anything are the practices
        listed at meditationsociety.org. I'm not doubting that
        it works, just the idea that you have to PAY for it, and
        the idea that it's better than other, more economical
        methods.

        But the thing that really gets my panties knotted is the
        idea that its effacacy is due to a magical transmission that
        comes from a "master." This idea is clearly in the realm
        of magical thinking and is no better than a fairy tale.
        But this fairy tale is being used to promote the practice.

        That's what's BS about it. It's a marketing hook along
        the lines of those used by snake oil salesman. The so-called
        "masters" powers are no more effective than those of my
        dog. The practice may work, but it works by means of
        creating sattvas in the mind, not because some guru
        somewhere is dosing you with a "transmission."

        --jody.

        [snip]
      • jodyrrr
        ... Are you asking me to pipe down, Jeff? I can do that. Perhaps after Subhash begins to refrain from his incessant guru pimping. --jody.
        Message 3 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
          <jeff@m...> wrote:
          > Jody -
          >
          > Are you trying to
          > recreate GR here
          > in peaceful Bob's
          > place, with your
          > fiery vanguard?
          >
          > Have another
          > habanero.
          >
          > With all of love's
          > transmission
          > that one guru
          > can muster,
          >
          > Jeff

          Are you asking me to pipe down, Jeff?

          I can do that. Perhaps after Subhash
          begins to refrain from his incessant
          guru pimping.

          --jody.

          >
          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
          > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
          > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "subhash naik"
          > > <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
          > > > An essential and unique feature of Sahaj Marg is the direct help
          > and
          > > > guidance of the Master in the form of transmission of Divine
          > Energy
          > > (called
          > > > 'PRANAHUTI' IN Sanskrit) from the Master to the aspirant.
          > >
          > > Magical nonsense designed to make your guru rich.
          > >
          > > > When the Divine Energy is transmitted into the heart of the
          > practician
          > > > (abhyasi),the practician is then filled with a force higher than
          > > himself and
          > > > therefore his,evolution or progress becomes very much faster
          > and,in
          > > essence
          > > > is independent of his own capacity for progress.
          > >
          > > Mystifatically ridiculous.
          > >
          > > > Also by the Master's power,the Transmission erases all the past
          > > impressions
          > > > (called samskaras) which we have built up in our minds and that
          > > condition our
          > > > behaviour and existence.When the past impressions are
          > > eradicated,material
          > > > existence falls into its proper place,as does every other facet of
          > > our existence.
          > >
          > > Complete and utter bullshit.
        • medit8ionsociety
          ... Yo Jodyji, I won t address the validity of your labeling Sri Subhash s actions as guru pimping (even though I must admit that the phrase made me laugh),
          Message 4 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
            <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
            > <jeff@m...> wrote:
            > > Jody -
            > >
            > > Are you trying to
            > > recreate GR here
            > > in peaceful Bob's
            > > place, with your
            > > fiery vanguard?
            > >
            > > Have another
            > > habanero.
            > >
            > > With all of love's
            > > transmission
            > > that one guru
            > > can muster,
            > >
            > > Jeff
            >
            > Are you asking me to pipe down, Jeff?
            >
            > I can do that. Perhaps after Subhash
            > begins to refrain from his incessant
            > guru pimping.
            >
            > --jody.
            >
            Yo Jodyji,
            I won't address the validity of your labeling
            Sri Subhash's actions as "guru pimping" (even though
            I must admit that the phrase made me laugh), but
            the adverb/adjective "incessant" might be a bit
            off base. For a while there had been several
            posts a day about Sahaj Marg and when I asked to
            have that limited to one per day, so as to not
            turn this forum excessivly into a Sahaj Marg
            advertisement, Sri Subhash graciously agreed,
            and has continued complying with my request 100%.
            I now feel it right to release him from that limit
            should he care to respond to you. And of course, your
            posts are always welcome and appreciated.
            Peace and blessings,
            Bob
          • jodyrrr
            ... Once every day or so with the same exact content qualifies as incessant in my book. ... It s still advertising at one per day, especially given the static
            Message 5 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
              <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
              > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
              > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
              > > <jeff@m...> wrote:
              > > > Jody -
              > > >
              > > > Are you trying to
              > > > recreate GR here
              > > > in peaceful Bob's
              > > > place, with your
              > > > fiery vanguard?
              > > >
              > > > Have another
              > > > habanero.
              > > >
              > > > With all of love's
              > > > transmission
              > > > that one guru
              > > > can muster,
              > > >
              > > > Jeff
              > >
              > > Are you asking me to pipe down, Jeff?
              > >
              > > I can do that. Perhaps after Subhash
              > > begins to refrain from his incessant
              > > guru pimping.
              > >
              > > --jody.
              > >
              > Yo Jodyji,
              > I won't address the validity of your labeling
              > Sri Subhash's actions as "guru pimping" (even though
              > I must admit that the phrase made me laugh), but
              > the adverb/adjective "incessant" might be a bit
              > off base.

              Once every day or so with the same exact content
              qualifies as incessant in my book.

              > For a while there had been several
              > posts a day about Sahaj Marg and when I asked to
              > have that limited to one per day, so as to not
              > turn this forum excessivly into a Sahaj Marg
              > advertisement, Sri Subhash graciously agreed,
              > and has continued complying with my request 100%.

              It's still advertising at one per day, especially
              given the static content.

              > I now feel it right to release him from that limit
              > should he care to respond to you. And of course, your
              > posts are always welcome and appreciated.
              > Peace and blessings,
              > Bob

              I welcome the opportunity.

              Thanks, Bob.

              --jody.
            • Jeff Belyea
              ... of ... We don t know enough to know whether we know this or not.
              Message 6 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "subhash naik"
                > > <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
                > > ...all the past impressions
                > > > (called samskaras) which we have built up in our minds and that
                > > condition our
                > > > behaviour and existence.When the past impressions are
                > > eradicated,material
                > > > existence falls into its proper place,as does every other facet
                of
                > > our existence.
                > >
                > >
                > > Yes, this is a most
                > > beautiful experience.
                > > The essence of it is
                > > written of in many
                > > philosophies, religions
                > > and spiritual traditions.
                > >
                > > When the conditioned
                > > self" gives way to
                > > the "True Self" one
                > > is absolved of all
                > > guilt and anguish -
                > > and everything,
                > > EVERYTHING, falls
                > > into place.
                > >
                > > The absolved one now
                > > faces existence in a
                > > whole new light, as
                > > a whole new being.
                > >
                > > "You shall know the
                > > Truth, and The Truth
                > > shall set you free."
                > >
                > > And, as The Tao says,
                > > "If it wasn't bullshit
                > > to the conditioned mind,
                > > it wouldn't be The Way."
                >
                > That's all well and good. But the idea that
                > this happens by way of a magical transferrence
                > of some kind of mystical energy is bullshit.
                >
                > It happens over time by way of deconditioning
                > and added clarity brought about by meditation.
                >
                > You don't get something for nothing, and there's
                > no magical powers to do it for you.

                We don't know enough
                to know whether we
                know this or not.
              • Jeff Belyea
                ... Bob addressed it well. Having received his transmission, I will simply open a window when your literary lurches, propelled by habanero lunch, reach the
                Message 7 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                  <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                  > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                  > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                  > > Jody -
                  > >
                  > > Are you trying to
                  > > recreate GR here
                  > > in peaceful Bob's
                  > > place, with your
                  > > fiery vanguard?
                  > >
                  > > Have another
                  > > habanero.
                  > >
                  > > With all of love's
                  > > transmission
                  > > that one guru
                  > > can muster,
                  > >
                  > > Jeff
                  >
                  > Are you asking me to pipe down, Jeff?
                  >
                  > I can do that. Perhaps after Subhash
                  > begins to refrain from his incessant
                  > guru pimping.
                  >
                  > --jody.
                  >

                  Bob addressed it well.

                  Having received his
                  transmission, I will
                  simply open a window
                  when your literary
                  lurches, propelled by
                  habanero lunch, reach
                  the launchpad of
                  digestive release.

                  In an earlier incarnation,
                  weren't you the one
                  who poo-pooed the
                  theory of flight,
                  breaking the 4-minute
                  mile barrier, and the
                  very idea of transmitting
                  pictures over a cable?


                  10

                  9

                  8

                  7

                  6

                  ...open window.
                • jodyrrr
                  ... That s what the magic apologists like to say. How can you know that you know. Because I can find a more likely explantion that doesn t resort to
                  Message 8 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                    <jeff@m...> wrote:
                    > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                    > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                    > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                    > > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                    > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "subhash naik"
                    > > > <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
                    > > > ...all the past impressions
                    > > > > (called samskaras) which we have built up in our minds and that
                    > > > condition our
                    > > > > behaviour and existence.When the past impressions are
                    > > > eradicated,material
                    > > > > existence falls into its proper place,as does every other facet
                    > of
                    > > > our existence.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Yes, this is a most
                    > > > beautiful experience.
                    > > > The essence of it is
                    > > > written of in many
                    > > > philosophies, religions
                    > > > and spiritual traditions.
                    > > >
                    > > > When the conditioned
                    > > > self" gives way to
                    > > > the "True Self" one
                    > > > is absolved of all
                    > > > guilt and anguish -
                    > > > and everything,
                    > > > EVERYTHING, falls
                    > > > into place.
                    > > >
                    > > > The absolved one now
                    > > > faces existence in a
                    > > > whole new light, as
                    > > > a whole new being.
                    > > >
                    > > > "You shall know the
                    > > > Truth, and The Truth
                    > > > shall set you free."
                    > > >
                    > > > And, as The Tao says,
                    > > > "If it wasn't bullshit
                    > > > to the conditioned mind,
                    > > > it wouldn't be The Way."
                    > >
                    > > That's all well and good. But the idea that
                    > > this happens by way of a magical transferrence
                    > > of some kind of mystical energy is bullshit.
                    > >
                    > > It happens over time by way of deconditioning
                    > > and added clarity brought about by meditation.
                    > >
                    > > You don't get something for nothing, and there's
                    > > no magical powers to do it for you.
                    >
                    > We don't know enough
                    > to know whether we
                    > know this or not.

                    That's what the magic apologists like to say.

                    "How can you know that you know."

                    Because I can find a more likely explantion
                    that doesn't resort to mystified nonsense.
                    And because *anything* in the realm of magical
                    is *always* phenomenological. So, two people
                    will experience their "magic" in completely
                    different ways. This puts such phenomena
                    squarely in the category 'imaginal,' IOW,
                    made up.

                    If someone gets a cold, they're likely to
                    believe it came from a germ rather
                    than believing a curse was set upon them.

                    But as soon as a "divine" guru enters the
                    equation, all reason flies right out the window,
                    and normally rational folk are prepared to
                    believe all kinds of utter nonsense. Just
                    hang out at an Amma satsang to catch a
                    glimpse.

                    It's a form of infantilism that pollutes
                    spiritual culture like a plague of ignorance.

                    And it keeps people from seeing the truth of
                    their own being, because they are taught to
                    believe it only comes by way of the magic
                    "transmissions" of their guru. It may as
                    well be a nocturnal emmission. At least then
                    you are getting something real, if not icky
                    and sticky and gross.
                  • jodyrrr
                    ... That s a reverse metaphor, Jeff. You are talking of the progression from magic to rational with these examples. Observing birds in flight, I can imagine
                    Message 9 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                      <jeff@m...> wrote:
                      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                      > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                      > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                      > > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                      > > > Jody -
                      > > >
                      > > > Are you trying to
                      > > > recreate GR here
                      > > > in peaceful Bob's
                      > > > place, with your
                      > > > fiery vanguard?
                      > > >
                      > > > Have another
                      > > > habanero.
                      > > >
                      > > > With all of love's
                      > > > transmission
                      > > > that one guru
                      > > > can muster,
                      > > >
                      > > > Jeff
                      > >
                      > > Are you asking me to pipe down, Jeff?
                      > >
                      > > I can do that. Perhaps after Subhash
                      > > begins to refrain from his incessant
                      > > guru pimping.
                      > >
                      > > --jody.
                      > >
                      >
                      > Bob addressed it well.
                      >
                      > Having received his
                      > transmission, I will
                      > simply open a window
                      > when your literary
                      > lurches, propelled by
                      > habanero lunch, reach
                      > the launchpad of
                      > digestive release.
                      >
                      > In an earlier incarnation,
                      > weren't you the one
                      > who poo-pooed the
                      > theory of flight,
                      > breaking the 4-minute
                      > mile barrier, and the
                      > very idea of transmitting
                      > pictures over a cable?
                      >
                      >
                      > 10
                      >
                      > 9
                      >
                      > 8
                      >
                      > 7
                      >
                      > 6
                      >
                      > ...open window.

                      That's a reverse metaphor, Jeff.

                      You are talking of the progression from
                      magic to rational with these examples.

                      Observing birds in flight, I can imagine
                      men one day doing so.

                      Seeing men going faster and faster, I can
                      imagine a 4-minute mile.

                      Seeing a photograph and knowing of the
                      telegraph, I can imagine pictures over cable.

                      But not seeing anything like a "transmission"
                      from a guru, and only having my subjective
                      interpretation of my experience, and the
                      subjective interpretation of others' experience,
                      and knowing that these interpretations are almost
                      always completely different from one another;
                      I'm making a huge, irrational leap to believe
                      that such is occurring in the light of a more
                      simple explanation, that the so-called "transmitted"
                      experiences are nothing more than self-suggested
                      wish fulfillment.

                      I've been in the presence of 4 well-known gurus,
                      and I've seen people practically flipping on the
                      ground like fish over them, but there was never
                      any evidence of anything more than their ideas
                      about the gurus causing anything. If "transmission"
                      was really a legit avenue for realization, why aren't
                      ALL of Amma's devotees realized?

                      Amma's devotees will say because we're not pure
                      enough. And that is the occluding idea which Amma
                      clogs their brains with. The fact is that everyone
                      has it—as you know—they just don't all see it.
                      It has nothing to do with purity and everything to
                      do with a simple lack of recognition. That's what
                      a real guru helps you with. S/he doesn't bathe you
                      in their "divine" light. That's just sales boilerplate
                      to keep the satsang junkies coming. What a real guru
                      does is recognize the Self in the devotee, and gently
                      attempt to put the devotee's attention there.

                      If gurus did that instead of enjoying all the adulation
                      that comes with being thought of as God, a whole lot
                      more of their devotees would actually come to realization,
                      rather than getting stuck in a cul-de-sac of shame and
                      obsessiveness over not being pure enough to know God.

                      That is one of the biggest tragedies wrought by the
                      egregious misinterpretation of Vedanta by the hagio-
                      deluded progenitors of neo Hinduism coming out of
                      India these days.
                    • ser_el_ser
                      ... Hello Jeff and Jodi, I would like to enter here. Though I agree with Jodi that It happens over time by way of deconditioning and added clarity brought
                      Message 10 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea" <jeff@
                        m...> wrote:
                        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                        > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                        > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                        > > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                        > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "subhash naik"
                        > > > <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
                        > > > ...all the past impressions
                        > > > > (called samskaras) which we have built up in our minds and that
                        > > > condition our
                        > > > > behaviour and existence.When the past impressions are
                        > > > eradicated,material
                        > > > > existence falls into its proper place,as does every other facet
                        > of
                        > > > our existence.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Yes, this is a most
                        > > > beautiful experience.
                        > > > The essence of it is
                        > > > written of in many
                        > > > philosophies, religions
                        > > > and spiritual traditions.
                        > > >
                        > > > When the conditioned
                        > > > self" gives way to
                        > > > the "True Self" one
                        > > > is absolved of all
                        > > > guilt and anguish -
                        > > > and everything,
                        > > > EVERYTHING, falls
                        > > > into place.
                        > > >
                        > > > The absolved one now
                        > > > faces existence in a
                        > > > whole new light, as
                        > > > a whole new being.
                        > > >
                        > > > "You shall know the
                        > > > Truth, and The Truth
                        > > > shall set you free."
                        > > >
                        > > > And, as The Tao says,
                        > > > "If it wasn't bullshit
                        > > > to the conditioned mind,
                        > > > it wouldn't be The Way."
                        > >
                        > > That's all well and good. But the idea that
                        > > this happens by way of a magical transferrence
                        > > of some kind of mystical energy is bullshit.
                        > >
                        > > It happens over time by way of deconditioning
                        > > and added clarity brought about by meditation.
                        > >
                        > > You don't get something for nothing, and there's
                        > > no magical powers to do it for you.
                        >
                        > We don't know enough
                        > to know whether we
                        > know this or not.

                        Hello Jeff and Jodi,

                        I would like to enter here.
                        Though I agree with Jodi that "It happens over time by way of deconditioning
                        and added clarity brought about by meditation" in the sense that
                        understanding comes with time, I also know that thanks to a shocking sudden
                        realization one can know for once what the true nature of oneself is.
                        Though in my case deconditioning is still happening, the truth of being is
                        always known since this happening.
                        From an exchange on Spiritual Humanism group, a lot of reflectioning has
                        been happening in the past days, since there seems that many that
                        apparently are very clear, have not had this 'shocking sudden realization', but
                        apparently stand on this deconditioning along time as the only means. When I
                        come to describe what happened in my case, it is as difficult to describe it
                        from my side as to understand or accept it from the point of view of those
                        reading the post. So I am coming to accept that talking about this happening
                        goes nowhere.
                        The point is, that the fact of not having had the "experience" with its
                        consequent amazing realization of something so evident that was never seen
                        before, does not proves the invalidity or impossibility of it.
                        And here comes the issue of denying.
                        I have never flight on an Icarus, but I cannot deny the described experiences
                        of those who had, for the simple reason of not having had the same
                        experience. I cannot deny.

                        So this is why I feel that saying that these and that way or these and that
                        philosophy is not valid, is improper, and more than that, absolutely unfair.

                        Everything is possible. Evidently, not within the thinking process or the
                        rational limitations, but within existence.

                        So why deny anything? If you, Jodi, want to help others see their delusions
                        and make them open their eyes, is it not possible without denying
                        possibilities?

                        Maria L
                      • jodyrrr
                        ... deconditioning ... sudden ... But those shocks come by way of sudden reckonings, or perhaps emotional reactions to traumatic occurrances, not by some guru
                        Message 11 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "ser_el_ser"
                          <ser_el_ser@y...> wrote:
                          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea" <jeff@
                          > m...> wrote:
                          > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                          > > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                          > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                          > > > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                          > > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "subhash naik"
                          > > > > <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
                          > > > > ...all the past impressions
                          > > > > > (called samskaras) which we have built up in our minds and that
                          > > > > condition our
                          > > > > > behaviour and existence.When the past impressions are
                          > > > > eradicated,material
                          > > > > > existence falls into its proper place,as does every other facet
                          > > of
                          > > > > our existence.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Yes, this is a most
                          > > > > beautiful experience.
                          > > > > The essence of it is
                          > > > > written of in many
                          > > > > philosophies, religions
                          > > > > and spiritual traditions.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > When the conditioned
                          > > > > self" gives way to
                          > > > > the "True Self" one
                          > > > > is absolved of all
                          > > > > guilt and anguish -
                          > > > > and everything,
                          > > > > EVERYTHING, falls
                          > > > > into place.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > The absolved one now
                          > > > > faces existence in a
                          > > > > whole new light, as
                          > > > > a whole new being.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > "You shall know the
                          > > > > Truth, and The Truth
                          > > > > shall set you free."
                          > > > >
                          > > > > And, as The Tao says,
                          > > > > "If it wasn't bullshit
                          > > > > to the conditioned mind,
                          > > > > it wouldn't be The Way."
                          > > >
                          > > > That's all well and good. But the idea that
                          > > > this happens by way of a magical transferrence
                          > > > of some kind of mystical energy is bullshit.
                          > > >
                          > > > It happens over time by way of deconditioning
                          > > > and added clarity brought about by meditation.
                          > > >
                          > > > You don't get something for nothing, and there's
                          > > > no magical powers to do it for you.
                          > >
                          > > We don't know enough
                          > > to know whether we
                          > > know this or not.
                          >
                          > Hello Jeff and Jodi,
                          >
                          > I would like to enter here.
                          > Though I agree with Jodi that "It happens over time by way of
                          deconditioning
                          > and added clarity brought about by meditation" in the sense that
                          > understanding comes with time, I also know that thanks to a shocking
                          sudden
                          > realization one can know for once what the true nature of oneself is.

                          But those shocks come by way of sudden reckonings, or perhaps
                          emotional reactions to traumatic occurrances, not by some guru
                          waving his magic fingers at you.

                          > Though in my case deconditioning is still happening, the truth of
                          being is
                          > always known since this happening.
                          > From an exchange on Spiritual Humanism group, a lot of reflectioning
                          has
                          > been happening in the past days, since there seems that many that
                          > apparently are very clear, have not had this 'shocking sudden
                          realization', but
                          > apparently stand on this deconditioning along time as the only
                          means. When I
                          > come to describe what happened in my case, it is as difficult to
                          describe it
                          > from my side as to understand or accept it from the point of view of
                          those
                          > reading the post. So I am coming to accept that talking about this
                          happening
                          > goes nowhere.
                          > The point is, that the fact of not having had the "experience" with its
                          > consequent amazing realization of something so evident that was
                          never seen
                          > before, does not proves the invalidity or impossibility of it.
                          > And here comes the issue of denying.
                          > I have never flight on an Icarus, but I cannot deny the described
                          experiences
                          > of those who had, for the simple reason of not having had the same
                          > experience. I cannot deny.
                          >
                          > So this is why I feel that saying that these and that way or these
                          and that
                          > philosophy is not valid, is improper, and more than that, absolutely
                          unfair.
                          >
                          > Everything is possible. Evidently, not within the thinking process
                          or the
                          > rational limitations, but within existence.
                          >
                          > So why deny anything? If you, Jodi, want to help others see their
                          delusions
                          > and make them open their eyes, is it not possible without denying
                          > possibilities?
                          >
                          > Maria L

                          Because I'm convinced that believing in magical occurrances as
                          a way to establish one in realization work much more against
                          realization rather than for it. This is based on my own
                          experiences and observations. I was a close disciple of
                          one of these "transmission" gurus, and I observed first-hand
                          the fact that it wasn't by magic, but by *belief* in magic
                          that people got their "experiences." I also observed that
                          these experiences were generated at the *suggestion* of the
                          guru *before* he waved his magic fingers. I observed as well
                          that those who wanted to impress the guru had regular
                          experiences, because this pleased the guru to hear. Finally,
                          I observed that the "experiences" had this way were nothing
                          more than fantasies that led to nothing except a kind of
                          pride over having experienced them, which itself led to a
                          false sense of adeptness.

                          I'm not denying the possibility that realization cannot
                          occur in one of these contexts, I'm saying that the model
                          is *imagined* rather than real. It's faith-healing, not
                          magical transmission. The "experiences" these folks get
                          are psychological/emotional, *interpreted* to be spiritual.

                          The Upanishads say it's not a thought, feeling, idea, or
                          experience. Anything you feel is a feeling. Anything
                          you think is a thought. 'This' is neither, and while the
                          direct knowing of 'this' occurs in a context of thought
                          and feeling, those who know it know it has as much to do
                          with either as my dog's ass.
                        • ser_el_ser
                          ... Thanks, very good reply. Maria
                          Message 12 of 21 , May 17, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            ....snip
                            > >
                            > > Hello Jeff and Jodi,
                            > >
                            > > I would like to enter here.
                            > > Though I agree with Jodi that "It happens over time by way of
                            > deconditioning
                            > > and added clarity brought about by meditation" in the sense that
                            > > understanding comes with time, I also know that thanks to a shocking
                            > sudden
                            > > realization one can know for once what the true nature of oneself is.
                            >
                            > But those shocks come by way of sudden reckonings, or perhaps
                            > emotional reactions to traumatic occurrances, not by some guru
                            > waving his magic fingers at you.
                            >
                            > > Though in my case deconditioning is still happening, the truth of
                            > being is
                            > > always known since this happening.
                            > > From an exchange on Spiritual Humanism group, a lot of reflectioning
                            > has
                            > > been happening in the past days, since there seems that many that
                            > > apparently are very clear, have not had this 'shocking sudden
                            > realization', but
                            > > apparently stand on this deconditioning along time as the only
                            > means. When I
                            > > come to describe what happened in my case, it is as difficult to
                            > describe it
                            > > from my side as to understand or accept it from the point of view of
                            > those
                            > > reading the post. So I am coming to accept that talking about this
                            > happening
                            > > goes nowhere.
                            > > The point is, that the fact of not having had the "experience" with its
                            > > consequent amazing realization of something so evident that was
                            > never seen
                            > > before, does not proves the invalidity or impossibility of it.
                            > > And here comes the issue of denying.
                            > > I have never flight on an Icarus, but I cannot deny the described
                            > experiences
                            > > of those who had, for the simple reason of not having had the same
                            > > experience. I cannot deny.
                            > >
                            > > So this is why I feel that saying that these and that way or these
                            > and that
                            > > philosophy is not valid, is improper, and more than that, absolutely
                            > unfair.
                            > >
                            > > Everything is possible. Evidently, not within the thinking process
                            > or the
                            > > rational limitations, but within existence.
                            > >
                            > > So why deny anything? If you, Jodi, want to help others see their
                            > delusions
                            > > and make them open their eyes, is it not possible without denying
                            > > possibilities?
                            > >
                            > > Maria L
                            >
                            > Because I'm convinced that believing in magical occurrances as
                            > a way to establish one in realization work much more against
                            > realization rather than for it. This is based on my own
                            > experiences and observations. I was a close disciple of
                            > one of these "transmission" gurus, and I observed first-hand
                            > the fact that it wasn't by magic, but by *belief* in magic
                            > that people got their "experiences." I also observed that
                            > these experiences were generated at the *suggestion* of the
                            > guru *before* he waved his magic fingers. I observed as well
                            > that those who wanted to impress the guru had regular
                            > experiences, because this pleased the guru to hear. Finally,
                            > I observed that the "experiences" had this way were nothing
                            > more than fantasies that led to nothing except a kind of
                            > pride over having experienced them, which itself led to a
                            > false sense of adeptness.
                            >
                            > I'm not denying the possibility that realization cannot
                            > occur in one of these contexts, I'm saying that the model
                            > is *imagined* rather than real. It's faith-healing, not
                            > magical transmission. The "experiences" these folks get
                            > are psychological/emotional, *interpreted* to be spiritual.
                            >
                            > The Upanishads say it's not a thought, feeling, idea, or
                            > experience. Anything you feel is a feeling. Anything
                            > you think is a thought. 'This' is neither, and while the
                            > direct knowing of 'this' occurs in a context of thought
                            > and feeling, those who know it know it has as much to do
                            > with either as my dog's ass.


                            Thanks, very good reply.

                            Maria
                          • globe peace
                            Hi all, Greetings. I found this link, that narrates the author s experience on meditation - cool and beautiful - http://www.udaypai.net/begin.htm Worth reading
                            Message 13 of 21 , May 17, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment

                              Hi all,

                              Greetings. I found this link, that narrates the author's experience on meditation - cool and beautiful -
                              http://www.udaypai.net/begin.htm
                              Worth reading and we should encourage this guy
                              Peace and love

                              Martin

                              __________________________________________________
                              Do You Yahoo!?
                              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                              http://mail.yahoo.com

                            • Jeff Belyea
                              Jody, I m not an advocate of the transmission view, and you know that. I just can t resist jostling your certainty whenever I read your fiery this is
                              Message 14 of 21 , May 18, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Jody,

                                I'm not an advocate of
                                the transmission view,
                                and you know that. I
                                just can't resist jostling
                                your "certainty" whenever
                                I read your fiery "this is
                                nothing more than..."
                                attempts to present your
                                bitter bluster as objective
                                truth.

                                That fundamentalists' fungi
                                stinks worse than any flight
                                of glittery creative rubric
                                that goes into the make-up
                                of the guru magic show.

                                Voltaire, another fiery
                                habanero imbiber who
                                did his share of singes
                                in his time, said,
                                "Uncertainly may be
                                uncomfortable, but
                                certainty is ridiculous."

                                Anyway, I love your
                                writing style. Even if
                                the content is blustery,
                                your tenacity is awesome.
                                It's like...(another of
                                my bruxism-producing
                                favorites)...never not
                                the case.

                                Your relentless pursuit
                                of the phoney guru hasn't
                                abated for a minute since
                                your own Guru Application
                                was turned down.

                                You even have a handle on
                                what constitutes a "real"
                                guru? Where are they?
                                Who are they?


                                Love transmitting
                                every minute,

                                Jeff

                                PS: This has to bring
                                Bruce out.



                                >
                                > I've been in the presence of 4 well-known gurus,
                                > and I've seen people practically flipping on the
                                > ground like fish over them, but there was never
                                > any evidence of anything more than their ideas
                                > about the gurus causing anything. If "transmission"
                                > was really a legit avenue for realization, why aren't
                                > ALL of Amma's devotees realized?
                                >
                                > Amma's devotees will say because we're not pure
                                > enough. And that is the occluding idea which Amma
                                > clogs their brains with. The fact is that everyone
                                > has it—as you know—they just don't all see it.
                                > It has nothing to do with purity and everything to
                                > do with a simple lack of recognition. That's what
                                > a real guru helps you with. S/he doesn't bathe you
                                > in their "divine" light. That's just sales boilerplate
                                > to keep the satsang junkies coming. What a real guru
                                > does is recognize the Self in the devotee, and gently
                                > attempt to put the devotee's attention there.
                                >
                                > If gurus did that instead of enjoying all the adulation
                                > that comes with being thought of as God, a whole lot
                                > more of their devotees would actually come to realization,
                                > rather than getting stuck in a cul-de-sac of shame and
                                > obsessiveness over not being pure enough to know God.
                                >
                                > That is one of the biggest tragedies wrought by the
                                > egregious misinterpretation of Vedanta by the hagio-
                                > deluded progenitors of neo Hinduism coming out of
                                > India these days.
                              • jodyrrr
                                ... It s not coming from a bitter place, Jeff, but a frustrated and exasperated one. Frustrated by the many wrong ideas and beliefs about gurus, and
                                Message 15 of 21 , May 19, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                                  <jeff@m...> wrote:
                                  > Jody,
                                  >
                                  > I'm not an advocate of
                                  > the transmission view,
                                  > and you know that. I
                                  > just can't resist jostling
                                  > your "certainty" whenever
                                  > I read your fiery "this is
                                  > nothing more than..."
                                  > attempts to present your
                                  > bitter bluster as objective
                                  > truth.

                                  It's not coming from a bitter place, Jeff,
                                  but a frustrated and exasperated one.

                                  Frustrated by the many wrong ideas and
                                  beliefs about gurus, and exasperated by
                                  those who believe and promote them.

                                  > That fundamentalists' fungi
                                  > stinks worse than any flight
                                  > of glittery creative rubric
                                  > that goes into the make-up
                                  > of the guru magic show.

                                  Fundamentalist? Not at all, Jeff.
                                  I'm convinced any path will work,
                                  including the heaviest guru bhakti
                                  with the most narcissistic of the
                                  "divine" among us.

                                  It's not what you believe (or who
                                  you are believing in,) it's how you
                                  believe it.

                                  I'm not saying that the "magic" can't
                                  work, I'm that believing in magical
                                  gurus is not one bit different from
                                  believing in fairy tales as children.
                                  And like children waiting to see the
                                  tooth fairy, many folks get stuck waiting
                                  for something that will never come, their
                                  idea of magical enlightenment being the
                                  primary impediment.

                                  > Voltaire, another fiery
                                  > habanero imbiber who
                                  > did his share of singes
                                  > in his time, said,
                                  > "Uncertainly may be
                                  > uncomfortable, but
                                  > certainty is ridiculous."

                                  My "certainty" is much more in how I'm
                                  sounding rather than what I'm meaning.
                                  As I said, the whole (ridiculous) magic
                                  thing can work. It does work. That's
                                  why it's so successful. But the way it
                                  works is just like faith-healing. The
                                  guru doesn't have the power, *you* do.
                                  You allow yourself to experience your
                                  *own* power in the presence of a guru,
                                  because having a guru around allows you
                                  to believe it will happen.

                                  > Anyway, I love your
                                  > writing style. Even if
                                  > the content is blustery,
                                  > your tenacity is awesome.
                                  > It's like...(another of
                                  > my bruxism-producing
                                  > favorites)...never not
                                  > the case.

                                  I suppose I'm a bit of a broken record
                                  about these things. Ces't la vie.

                                  > Your relentless pursuit
                                  > of the phoney guru hasn't
                                  > abated for a minute since
                                  > your own Guru Application
                                  > was turned down.

                                  My "relentless pursuit" was going long,
                                  long before that little debacle. I never
                                  considered that application valid
                                  anyway, given the state of mind of the
                                  manager there. Besides, everyone I respect
                                  *except* you were out of that comeditragedy
                                  soon after I left anyway.

                                  > You even have a handle on
                                  > what constitutes a "real"
                                  > guru? Where are they?
                                  > Who are they?

                                  Anyone who knows who they are and are *not*
                                  on any kind of pedestal, whether by their own
                                  devices or that of their devotees.

                                  A real guru makes sure his/her people know
                                  that they are just exactly like them, in the
                                  same boat of life floating on the same sea
                                  together. A real guru makes everyone know
                                  that they are just as divine as anyone else,
                                  that divinity is right here, right now in
                                  all of our lives, exclusive of no one.

                                  --jody

                                  BTW: I'm heading into the bush for a few days.
                                  I'll be back online Monday.

                                  > Love transmitting
                                  > every minute,
                                  >
                                  > Jeff
                                  >
                                  > PS: This has to bring
                                  > Bruce out.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > I've been in the presence of 4 well-known gurus,
                                  > > and I've seen people practically flipping on the
                                  > > ground like fish over them, but there was never
                                  > > any evidence of anything more than their ideas
                                  > > about the gurus causing anything. If "transmission"
                                  > > was really a legit avenue for realization, why aren't
                                  > > ALL of Amma's devotees realized?
                                  > >
                                  > > Amma's devotees will say because we're not pure
                                  > > enough. And that is the occluding idea which Amma
                                  > > clogs their brains with. The fact is that everyone
                                  > > has it—as you know—they just don't all see it.
                                  > > It has nothing to do with purity and everything to
                                  > > do with a simple lack of recognition. That's what
                                  > > a real guru helps you with. S/he doesn't bathe you
                                  > > in their "divine" light. That's just sales boilerplate
                                  > > to keep the satsang junkies coming. What a real guru
                                  > > does is recognize the Self in the devotee, and gently
                                  > > attempt to put the devotee's attention there.
                                  > >
                                  > > If gurus did that instead of enjoying all the adulation
                                  > > that comes with being thought of as God, a whole lot
                                  > > more of their devotees would actually come to realization,
                                  > > rather than getting stuck in a cul-de-sac of shame and
                                  > > obsessiveness over not being pure enough to know God.
                                  > >
                                  > > That is one of the biggest tragedies wrought by the
                                  > > egregious misinterpretation of Vedanta by the hagio-
                                  > > deluded progenitors of neo Hinduism coming out of
                                  > > India these days.
                                • Jeff Belyea
                                  Thanks, Jody - Nice response. All is well. Best, Jeff
                                  Message 16 of 21 , May 19, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Thanks, Jody -

                                    Nice response.

                                    All is well.

                                    Best,

                                    Jeff

                                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                    <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                    > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                                    > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                                    > > Jody,
                                    > >
                                    > > I'm not an advocate of
                                    > > the transmission view,
                                    > > and you know that. I
                                    > > just can't resist jostling
                                    > > your "certainty" whenever
                                    > > I read your fiery "this is
                                    > > nothing more than..."
                                    > > attempts to present your
                                    > > bitter bluster as objective
                                    > > truth.
                                    >
                                    > It's not coming from a bitter place, Jeff,
                                    > but a frustrated and exasperated one.
                                    >
                                    > Frustrated by the many wrong ideas and
                                    > beliefs about gurus, and exasperated by
                                    > those who believe and promote them.
                                    >
                                    > > That fundamentalists' fungi
                                    > > stinks worse than any flight
                                    > > of glittery creative rubric
                                    > > that goes into the make-up
                                    > > of the guru magic show.
                                    >
                                    > Fundamentalist? Not at all, Jeff.
                                    > I'm convinced any path will work,
                                    > including the heaviest guru bhakti
                                    > with the most narcissistic of the
                                    > "divine" among us.
                                    >
                                    > It's not what you believe (or who
                                    > you are believing in,) it's how you
                                    > believe it.
                                    >
                                    > I'm not saying that the "magic" can't
                                    > work, I'm that believing in magical
                                    > gurus is not one bit different from
                                    > believing in fairy tales as children.
                                    > And like children waiting to see the
                                    > tooth fairy, many folks get stuck waiting
                                    > for something that will never come, their
                                    > idea of magical enlightenment being the
                                    > primary impediment.
                                    >
                                    > > Voltaire, another fiery
                                    > > habanero imbiber who
                                    > > did his share of singes
                                    > > in his time, said,
                                    > > "Uncertainly may be
                                    > > uncomfortable, but
                                    > > certainty is ridiculous."
                                    >
                                    > My "certainty" is much more in how I'm
                                    > sounding rather than what I'm meaning.
                                    > As I said, the whole (ridiculous) magic
                                    > thing can work. It does work. That's
                                    > why it's so successful. But the way it
                                    > works is just like faith-healing. The
                                    > guru doesn't have the power, *you* do.
                                    > You allow yourself to experience your
                                    > *own* power in the presence of a guru,
                                    > because having a guru around allows you
                                    > to believe it will happen.
                                    >
                                    > > Anyway, I love your
                                    > > writing style. Even if
                                    > > the content is blustery,
                                    > > your tenacity is awesome.
                                    > > It's like...(another of
                                    > > my bruxism-producing
                                    > > favorites)...never not
                                    > > the case.
                                    >
                                    > I suppose I'm a bit of a broken record
                                    > about these things. Ces't la vie.
                                    >
                                    > > Your relentless pursuit
                                    > > of the phoney guru hasn't
                                    > > abated for a minute since
                                    > > your own Guru Application
                                    > > was turned down.
                                    >
                                    > My "relentless pursuit" was going long,
                                    > long before that little debacle. I never
                                    > considered that application valid
                                    > anyway, given the state of mind of the
                                    > manager there. Besides, everyone I respect
                                    > *except* you were out of that comeditragedy
                                    > soon after I left anyway.
                                    >
                                    > > You even have a handle on
                                    > > what constitutes a "real"
                                    > > guru? Where are they?
                                    > > Who are they?
                                    >
                                    > Anyone who knows who they are and are *not*
                                    > on any kind of pedestal, whether by their own
                                    > devices or that of their devotees.
                                    >
                                    > A real guru makes sure his/her people know
                                    > that they are just exactly like them, in the
                                    > same boat of life floating on the same sea
                                    > together. A real guru makes everyone know
                                    > that they are just as divine as anyone else,
                                    > that divinity is right here, right now in
                                    > all of our lives, exclusive of no one.
                                    >
                                    > --jody
                                    >
                                    > BTW: I'm heading into the bush for a few days.
                                    > I'll be back online Monday.
                                    >
                                    > > Love transmitting
                                    > > every minute,
                                    > >
                                    > > Jeff
                                    > >
                                    > > PS: This has to bring
                                    > > Bruce out.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I've been in the presence of 4 well-known gurus,
                                    > > > and I've seen people practically flipping on the
                                    > > > ground like fish over them, but there was never
                                    > > > any evidence of anything more than their ideas
                                    > > > about the gurus causing anything. If "transmission"
                                    > > > was really a legit avenue for realization, why aren't
                                    > > > ALL of Amma's devotees realized?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Amma's devotees will say because we're not pure
                                    > > > enough. And that is the occluding idea which Amma
                                    > > > clogs their brains with. The fact is that everyone
                                    > > > has it—as you know—they just don't all see it.
                                    > > > It has nothing to do with purity and everything to
                                    > > > do with a simple lack of recognition. That's what
                                    > > > a real guru helps you with. S/he doesn't bathe you
                                    > > > in their "divine" light. That's just sales boilerplate
                                    > > > to keep the satsang junkies coming. What a real guru
                                    > > > does is recognize the Self in the devotee, and gently
                                    > > > attempt to put the devotee's attention there.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > If gurus did that instead of enjoying all the adulation
                                    > > > that comes with being thought of as God, a whole lot
                                    > > > more of their devotees would actually come to realization,
                                    > > > rather than getting stuck in a cul-de-sac of shame and
                                    > > > obsessiveness over not being pure enough to know God.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > That is one of the biggest tragedies wrought by the
                                    > > > egregious misinterpretation of Vedanta by the hagio-
                                    > > > deluded progenitors of neo Hinduism coming out of
                                    > > > India these days.
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