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Re: WHAT IS TRANSMISSION ?

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  • medit8ionsociety
    ... Yo Papajeff, You re probably right on the money with labeling Jodyji s remarks as having the GuruRatings group flavor about them. And this brings to mind
    Message 1 of 21 , May 17, 2005
      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
      <jeff@m...> wrote:
      > Jody -
      >
      > Are you trying to
      > recreate GR here
      > in peaceful Bob's
      > place, with your
      > fiery vanguard?
      >
      > Have another
      > habanero.
      >
      > With all of love's
      > transmission
      > that one guru
      > can muster,
      >
      > Jeff

      Yo Papajeff,
      You're probably right on the money with labeling
      Jodyji's remarks as having the GuruRatings group
      flavor about them. And this brings to mind other times
      here where one side of an issue (who's a real
      Guru and who's not) and another had great debates that
      were pretty ugly and didn't seem to fit the beauty
      and tranquility that meditation usually is associated
      with. But now, as then, I think (and that will always
      cause trouble:-) that both Jodiji and Sri Subhash Naik
      have good intentions. One seeks to spare others from
      wasting time on a path that leads to nowhere, and the
      other to help point out a path they have found to be
      beneficial. But - "...the road to Hell is paved with
      good intentions", and I know you remember how we
      ended up with hundreds of posts here that were mostly
      "You're a jerk and a fraud" "Oh yeah - well so are
      you and so's your mother", or something similar. So,
      as in life, even a meditative one, there are always
      going to be times that are seemingly incongruous
      with the environment we would like to be in, but often
      these are the times that we can learn the most. I hope
      that this is just such a moment for this group. And
      if it starts to get out of hand, I have a feeling that
      another window will open and a gust of fresh air will
      get the stink out of the room. In any event, we always
      have the option of the "can't go wrong" strategy of
      silently witnessing the events and paying attention
      with "good" intention. And if that doesn't do it, well,
      we can always start talking about the Eagles chances
      of going back to the Superbowl if TO holds out.

      Peace and blessings,
      Bob
      >
      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
      > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
      > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "subhash naik"
      > > <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
      > > > An essential and unique feature of Sahaj Marg is the direct
      help
      > and
      > > > guidance of the Master in the form of transmission of Divine
      > Energy
      > > (called
      > > > 'PRANAHUTI' IN Sanskrit) from the Master to the aspirant.
      > >
      > > Magical nonsense designed to make your guru rich.
      > >
      > > > When the Divine Energy is transmitted into the heart of the
      > practician
      > > > (abhyasi),the practician is then filled with a force higher than
      > > himself and
      > > > therefore his,evolution or progress becomes very much faster
      > and,in
      > > essence
      > > > is independent of his own capacity for progress.
      > >
      > > Mystifatically ridiculous.
      > >
      > > > Also by the Master's power,the Transmission erases all the past
      > > impressions
      > > > (called samskaras) which we have built up in our minds and that
      > > condition our
      > > > behaviour and existence.When the past impressions are
      > > eradicated,material
      > > > existence falls into its proper place,as does every other facet
      of
      > > our existence.
      > >
      > > Complete and utter bullshit.
    • jodyrrr
      ... That s all well and good. But the idea that this happens by way of a magical transferrence of some kind of mystical energy is bullshit. It happens over
      Message 2 of 21 , May 17, 2005
        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
        <jeff@m...> wrote:
        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "subhash naik"
        > <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
        > ...all the past impressions
        > > (called samskaras) which we have built up in our minds and that
        > condition our
        > > behaviour and existence.When the past impressions are
        > eradicated,material
        > > existence falls into its proper place,as does every other facet of
        > our existence.
        >
        >
        > Yes, this is a most
        > beautiful experience.
        > The essence of it is
        > written of in many
        > philosophies, religions
        > and spiritual traditions.
        >
        > When the conditioned
        > self" gives way to
        > the "True Self" one
        > is absolved of all
        > guilt and anguish -
        > and everything,
        > EVERYTHING, falls
        > into place.
        >
        > The absolved one now
        > faces existence in a
        > whole new light, as
        > a whole new being.
        >
        > "You shall know the
        > Truth, and The Truth
        > shall set you free."
        >
        > And, as The Tao says,
        > "If it wasn't bullshit
        > to the conditioned mind,
        > it wouldn't be The Way."

        That's all well and good. But the idea that
        this happens by way of a magical transferrence
        of some kind of mystical energy is bullshit.

        It happens over time by way of deconditioning
        and added clarity brought about by meditation.

        You don't get something for nothing, and there's
        no magical powers to do it for you.
      • jodyrrr
        ... wrote: [snip] ... Actually, I believe Sahaj Marg will work just as good as anything. Included in that anything are the practices listed at
        Message 3 of 21 , May 17, 2005
          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
          <no_reply@y...> wrote:

          [snip]

          > that both Jodiji and Sri Subhash Naik
          > have good intentions. One seeks to spare others from
          > wasting time on a path that leads to nowhere, and the
          > other to help point out a path they have found to be
          > beneficial.

          Actually, I believe Sahaj Marg will work just as good
          as anything. Included in that anything are the practices
          listed at meditationsociety.org. I'm not doubting that
          it works, just the idea that you have to PAY for it, and
          the idea that it's better than other, more economical
          methods.

          But the thing that really gets my panties knotted is the
          idea that its effacacy is due to a magical transmission that
          comes from a "master." This idea is clearly in the realm
          of magical thinking and is no better than a fairy tale.
          But this fairy tale is being used to promote the practice.

          That's what's BS about it. It's a marketing hook along
          the lines of those used by snake oil salesman. The so-called
          "masters" powers are no more effective than those of my
          dog. The practice may work, but it works by means of
          creating sattvas in the mind, not because some guru
          somewhere is dosing you with a "transmission."

          --jody.

          [snip]
        • jodyrrr
          ... Are you asking me to pipe down, Jeff? I can do that. Perhaps after Subhash begins to refrain from his incessant guru pimping. --jody.
          Message 4 of 21 , May 17, 2005
            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
            <jeff@m...> wrote:
            > Jody -
            >
            > Are you trying to
            > recreate GR here
            > in peaceful Bob's
            > place, with your
            > fiery vanguard?
            >
            > Have another
            > habanero.
            >
            > With all of love's
            > transmission
            > that one guru
            > can muster,
            >
            > Jeff

            Are you asking me to pipe down, Jeff?

            I can do that. Perhaps after Subhash
            begins to refrain from his incessant
            guru pimping.

            --jody.

            >
            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
            > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
            > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "subhash naik"
            > > <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
            > > > An essential and unique feature of Sahaj Marg is the direct help
            > and
            > > > guidance of the Master in the form of transmission of Divine
            > Energy
            > > (called
            > > > 'PRANAHUTI' IN Sanskrit) from the Master to the aspirant.
            > >
            > > Magical nonsense designed to make your guru rich.
            > >
            > > > When the Divine Energy is transmitted into the heart of the
            > practician
            > > > (abhyasi),the practician is then filled with a force higher than
            > > himself and
            > > > therefore his,evolution or progress becomes very much faster
            > and,in
            > > essence
            > > > is independent of his own capacity for progress.
            > >
            > > Mystifatically ridiculous.
            > >
            > > > Also by the Master's power,the Transmission erases all the past
            > > impressions
            > > > (called samskaras) which we have built up in our minds and that
            > > condition our
            > > > behaviour and existence.When the past impressions are
            > > eradicated,material
            > > > existence falls into its proper place,as does every other facet of
            > > our existence.
            > >
            > > Complete and utter bullshit.
          • medit8ionsociety
            ... Yo Jodyji, I won t address the validity of your labeling Sri Subhash s actions as guru pimping (even though I must admit that the phrase made me laugh),
            Message 5 of 21 , May 17, 2005
              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
              <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
              > <jeff@m...> wrote:
              > > Jody -
              > >
              > > Are you trying to
              > > recreate GR here
              > > in peaceful Bob's
              > > place, with your
              > > fiery vanguard?
              > >
              > > Have another
              > > habanero.
              > >
              > > With all of love's
              > > transmission
              > > that one guru
              > > can muster,
              > >
              > > Jeff
              >
              > Are you asking me to pipe down, Jeff?
              >
              > I can do that. Perhaps after Subhash
              > begins to refrain from his incessant
              > guru pimping.
              >
              > --jody.
              >
              Yo Jodyji,
              I won't address the validity of your labeling
              Sri Subhash's actions as "guru pimping" (even though
              I must admit that the phrase made me laugh), but
              the adverb/adjective "incessant" might be a bit
              off base. For a while there had been several
              posts a day about Sahaj Marg and when I asked to
              have that limited to one per day, so as to not
              turn this forum excessivly into a Sahaj Marg
              advertisement, Sri Subhash graciously agreed,
              and has continued complying with my request 100%.
              I now feel it right to release him from that limit
              should he care to respond to you. And of course, your
              posts are always welcome and appreciated.
              Peace and blessings,
              Bob
            • jodyrrr
              ... Once every day or so with the same exact content qualifies as incessant in my book. ... It s still advertising at one per day, especially given the static
              Message 6 of 21 , May 17, 2005
                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
                <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                > > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                > > > Jody -
                > > >
                > > > Are you trying to
                > > > recreate GR here
                > > > in peaceful Bob's
                > > > place, with your
                > > > fiery vanguard?
                > > >
                > > > Have another
                > > > habanero.
                > > >
                > > > With all of love's
                > > > transmission
                > > > that one guru
                > > > can muster,
                > > >
                > > > Jeff
                > >
                > > Are you asking me to pipe down, Jeff?
                > >
                > > I can do that. Perhaps after Subhash
                > > begins to refrain from his incessant
                > > guru pimping.
                > >
                > > --jody.
                > >
                > Yo Jodyji,
                > I won't address the validity of your labeling
                > Sri Subhash's actions as "guru pimping" (even though
                > I must admit that the phrase made me laugh), but
                > the adverb/adjective "incessant" might be a bit
                > off base.

                Once every day or so with the same exact content
                qualifies as incessant in my book.

                > For a while there had been several
                > posts a day about Sahaj Marg and when I asked to
                > have that limited to one per day, so as to not
                > turn this forum excessivly into a Sahaj Marg
                > advertisement, Sri Subhash graciously agreed,
                > and has continued complying with my request 100%.

                It's still advertising at one per day, especially
                given the static content.

                > I now feel it right to release him from that limit
                > should he care to respond to you. And of course, your
                > posts are always welcome and appreciated.
                > Peace and blessings,
                > Bob

                I welcome the opportunity.

                Thanks, Bob.

                --jody.
              • Jeff Belyea
                ... of ... We don t know enough to know whether we know this or not.
                Message 7 of 21 , May 17, 2005
                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                  <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                  > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                  > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                  > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "subhash naik"
                  > > <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
                  > > ...all the past impressions
                  > > > (called samskaras) which we have built up in our minds and that
                  > > condition our
                  > > > behaviour and existence.When the past impressions are
                  > > eradicated,material
                  > > > existence falls into its proper place,as does every other facet
                  of
                  > > our existence.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yes, this is a most
                  > > beautiful experience.
                  > > The essence of it is
                  > > written of in many
                  > > philosophies, religions
                  > > and spiritual traditions.
                  > >
                  > > When the conditioned
                  > > self" gives way to
                  > > the "True Self" one
                  > > is absolved of all
                  > > guilt and anguish -
                  > > and everything,
                  > > EVERYTHING, falls
                  > > into place.
                  > >
                  > > The absolved one now
                  > > faces existence in a
                  > > whole new light, as
                  > > a whole new being.
                  > >
                  > > "You shall know the
                  > > Truth, and The Truth
                  > > shall set you free."
                  > >
                  > > And, as The Tao says,
                  > > "If it wasn't bullshit
                  > > to the conditioned mind,
                  > > it wouldn't be The Way."
                  >
                  > That's all well and good. But the idea that
                  > this happens by way of a magical transferrence
                  > of some kind of mystical energy is bullshit.
                  >
                  > It happens over time by way of deconditioning
                  > and added clarity brought about by meditation.
                  >
                  > You don't get something for nothing, and there's
                  > no magical powers to do it for you.

                  We don't know enough
                  to know whether we
                  know this or not.
                • Jeff Belyea
                  ... Bob addressed it well. Having received his transmission, I will simply open a window when your literary lurches, propelled by habanero lunch, reach the
                  Message 8 of 21 , May 17, 2005
                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                    <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                    > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                    > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                    > > Jody -
                    > >
                    > > Are you trying to
                    > > recreate GR here
                    > > in peaceful Bob's
                    > > place, with your
                    > > fiery vanguard?
                    > >
                    > > Have another
                    > > habanero.
                    > >
                    > > With all of love's
                    > > transmission
                    > > that one guru
                    > > can muster,
                    > >
                    > > Jeff
                    >
                    > Are you asking me to pipe down, Jeff?
                    >
                    > I can do that. Perhaps after Subhash
                    > begins to refrain from his incessant
                    > guru pimping.
                    >
                    > --jody.
                    >

                    Bob addressed it well.

                    Having received his
                    transmission, I will
                    simply open a window
                    when your literary
                    lurches, propelled by
                    habanero lunch, reach
                    the launchpad of
                    digestive release.

                    In an earlier incarnation,
                    weren't you the one
                    who poo-pooed the
                    theory of flight,
                    breaking the 4-minute
                    mile barrier, and the
                    very idea of transmitting
                    pictures over a cable?


                    10

                    9

                    8

                    7

                    6

                    ...open window.
                  • jodyrrr
                    ... That s what the magic apologists like to say. How can you know that you know. Because I can find a more likely explantion that doesn t resort to
                    Message 9 of 21 , May 17, 2005
                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                      <jeff@m...> wrote:
                      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                      > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                      > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                      > > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                      > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "subhash naik"
                      > > > <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
                      > > > ...all the past impressions
                      > > > > (called samskaras) which we have built up in our minds and that
                      > > > condition our
                      > > > > behaviour and existence.When the past impressions are
                      > > > eradicated,material
                      > > > > existence falls into its proper place,as does every other facet
                      > of
                      > > > our existence.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Yes, this is a most
                      > > > beautiful experience.
                      > > > The essence of it is
                      > > > written of in many
                      > > > philosophies, religions
                      > > > and spiritual traditions.
                      > > >
                      > > > When the conditioned
                      > > > self" gives way to
                      > > > the "True Self" one
                      > > > is absolved of all
                      > > > guilt and anguish -
                      > > > and everything,
                      > > > EVERYTHING, falls
                      > > > into place.
                      > > >
                      > > > The absolved one now
                      > > > faces existence in a
                      > > > whole new light, as
                      > > > a whole new being.
                      > > >
                      > > > "You shall know the
                      > > > Truth, and The Truth
                      > > > shall set you free."
                      > > >
                      > > > And, as The Tao says,
                      > > > "If it wasn't bullshit
                      > > > to the conditioned mind,
                      > > > it wouldn't be The Way."
                      > >
                      > > That's all well and good. But the idea that
                      > > this happens by way of a magical transferrence
                      > > of some kind of mystical energy is bullshit.
                      > >
                      > > It happens over time by way of deconditioning
                      > > and added clarity brought about by meditation.
                      > >
                      > > You don't get something for nothing, and there's
                      > > no magical powers to do it for you.
                      >
                      > We don't know enough
                      > to know whether we
                      > know this or not.

                      That's what the magic apologists like to say.

                      "How can you know that you know."

                      Because I can find a more likely explantion
                      that doesn't resort to mystified nonsense.
                      And because *anything* in the realm of magical
                      is *always* phenomenological. So, two people
                      will experience their "magic" in completely
                      different ways. This puts such phenomena
                      squarely in the category 'imaginal,' IOW,
                      made up.

                      If someone gets a cold, they're likely to
                      believe it came from a germ rather
                      than believing a curse was set upon them.

                      But as soon as a "divine" guru enters the
                      equation, all reason flies right out the window,
                      and normally rational folk are prepared to
                      believe all kinds of utter nonsense. Just
                      hang out at an Amma satsang to catch a
                      glimpse.

                      It's a form of infantilism that pollutes
                      spiritual culture like a plague of ignorance.

                      And it keeps people from seeing the truth of
                      their own being, because they are taught to
                      believe it only comes by way of the magic
                      "transmissions" of their guru. It may as
                      well be a nocturnal emmission. At least then
                      you are getting something real, if not icky
                      and sticky and gross.
                    • jodyrrr
                      ... That s a reverse metaphor, Jeff. You are talking of the progression from magic to rational with these examples. Observing birds in flight, I can imagine
                      Message 10 of 21 , May 17, 2005
                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                        <jeff@m...> wrote:
                        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                        > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                        > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                        > > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                        > > > Jody -
                        > > >
                        > > > Are you trying to
                        > > > recreate GR here
                        > > > in peaceful Bob's
                        > > > place, with your
                        > > > fiery vanguard?
                        > > >
                        > > > Have another
                        > > > habanero.
                        > > >
                        > > > With all of love's
                        > > > transmission
                        > > > that one guru
                        > > > can muster,
                        > > >
                        > > > Jeff
                        > >
                        > > Are you asking me to pipe down, Jeff?
                        > >
                        > > I can do that. Perhaps after Subhash
                        > > begins to refrain from his incessant
                        > > guru pimping.
                        > >
                        > > --jody.
                        > >
                        >
                        > Bob addressed it well.
                        >
                        > Having received his
                        > transmission, I will
                        > simply open a window
                        > when your literary
                        > lurches, propelled by
                        > habanero lunch, reach
                        > the launchpad of
                        > digestive release.
                        >
                        > In an earlier incarnation,
                        > weren't you the one
                        > who poo-pooed the
                        > theory of flight,
                        > breaking the 4-minute
                        > mile barrier, and the
                        > very idea of transmitting
                        > pictures over a cable?
                        >
                        >
                        > 10
                        >
                        > 9
                        >
                        > 8
                        >
                        > 7
                        >
                        > 6
                        >
                        > ...open window.

                        That's a reverse metaphor, Jeff.

                        You are talking of the progression from
                        magic to rational with these examples.

                        Observing birds in flight, I can imagine
                        men one day doing so.

                        Seeing men going faster and faster, I can
                        imagine a 4-minute mile.

                        Seeing a photograph and knowing of the
                        telegraph, I can imagine pictures over cable.

                        But not seeing anything like a "transmission"
                        from a guru, and only having my subjective
                        interpretation of my experience, and the
                        subjective interpretation of others' experience,
                        and knowing that these interpretations are almost
                        always completely different from one another;
                        I'm making a huge, irrational leap to believe
                        that such is occurring in the light of a more
                        simple explanation, that the so-called "transmitted"
                        experiences are nothing more than self-suggested
                        wish fulfillment.

                        I've been in the presence of 4 well-known gurus,
                        and I've seen people practically flipping on the
                        ground like fish over them, but there was never
                        any evidence of anything more than their ideas
                        about the gurus causing anything. If "transmission"
                        was really a legit avenue for realization, why aren't
                        ALL of Amma's devotees realized?

                        Amma's devotees will say because we're not pure
                        enough. And that is the occluding idea which Amma
                        clogs their brains with. The fact is that everyone
                        has it—as you know—they just don't all see it.
                        It has nothing to do with purity and everything to
                        do with a simple lack of recognition. That's what
                        a real guru helps you with. S/he doesn't bathe you
                        in their "divine" light. That's just sales boilerplate
                        to keep the satsang junkies coming. What a real guru
                        does is recognize the Self in the devotee, and gently
                        attempt to put the devotee's attention there.

                        If gurus did that instead of enjoying all the adulation
                        that comes with being thought of as God, a whole lot
                        more of their devotees would actually come to realization,
                        rather than getting stuck in a cul-de-sac of shame and
                        obsessiveness over not being pure enough to know God.

                        That is one of the biggest tragedies wrought by the
                        egregious misinterpretation of Vedanta by the hagio-
                        deluded progenitors of neo Hinduism coming out of
                        India these days.
                      • ser_el_ser
                        ... Hello Jeff and Jodi, I would like to enter here. Though I agree with Jodi that It happens over time by way of deconditioning and added clarity brought
                        Message 11 of 21 , May 17, 2005
                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea" <jeff@
                          m...> wrote:
                          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                          > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                          > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                          > > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                          > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "subhash naik"
                          > > > <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
                          > > > ...all the past impressions
                          > > > > (called samskaras) which we have built up in our minds and that
                          > > > condition our
                          > > > > behaviour and existence.When the past impressions are
                          > > > eradicated,material
                          > > > > existence falls into its proper place,as does every other facet
                          > of
                          > > > our existence.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Yes, this is a most
                          > > > beautiful experience.
                          > > > The essence of it is
                          > > > written of in many
                          > > > philosophies, religions
                          > > > and spiritual traditions.
                          > > >
                          > > > When the conditioned
                          > > > self" gives way to
                          > > > the "True Self" one
                          > > > is absolved of all
                          > > > guilt and anguish -
                          > > > and everything,
                          > > > EVERYTHING, falls
                          > > > into place.
                          > > >
                          > > > The absolved one now
                          > > > faces existence in a
                          > > > whole new light, as
                          > > > a whole new being.
                          > > >
                          > > > "You shall know the
                          > > > Truth, and The Truth
                          > > > shall set you free."
                          > > >
                          > > > And, as The Tao says,
                          > > > "If it wasn't bullshit
                          > > > to the conditioned mind,
                          > > > it wouldn't be The Way."
                          > >
                          > > That's all well and good. But the idea that
                          > > this happens by way of a magical transferrence
                          > > of some kind of mystical energy is bullshit.
                          > >
                          > > It happens over time by way of deconditioning
                          > > and added clarity brought about by meditation.
                          > >
                          > > You don't get something for nothing, and there's
                          > > no magical powers to do it for you.
                          >
                          > We don't know enough
                          > to know whether we
                          > know this or not.

                          Hello Jeff and Jodi,

                          I would like to enter here.
                          Though I agree with Jodi that "It happens over time by way of deconditioning
                          and added clarity brought about by meditation" in the sense that
                          understanding comes with time, I also know that thanks to a shocking sudden
                          realization one can know for once what the true nature of oneself is.
                          Though in my case deconditioning is still happening, the truth of being is
                          always known since this happening.
                          From an exchange on Spiritual Humanism group, a lot of reflectioning has
                          been happening in the past days, since there seems that many that
                          apparently are very clear, have not had this 'shocking sudden realization', but
                          apparently stand on this deconditioning along time as the only means. When I
                          come to describe what happened in my case, it is as difficult to describe it
                          from my side as to understand or accept it from the point of view of those
                          reading the post. So I am coming to accept that talking about this happening
                          goes nowhere.
                          The point is, that the fact of not having had the "experience" with its
                          consequent amazing realization of something so evident that was never seen
                          before, does not proves the invalidity or impossibility of it.
                          And here comes the issue of denying.
                          I have never flight on an Icarus, but I cannot deny the described experiences
                          of those who had, for the simple reason of not having had the same
                          experience. I cannot deny.

                          So this is why I feel that saying that these and that way or these and that
                          philosophy is not valid, is improper, and more than that, absolutely unfair.

                          Everything is possible. Evidently, not within the thinking process or the
                          rational limitations, but within existence.

                          So why deny anything? If you, Jodi, want to help others see their delusions
                          and make them open their eyes, is it not possible without denying
                          possibilities?

                          Maria L
                        • jodyrrr
                          ... deconditioning ... sudden ... But those shocks come by way of sudden reckonings, or perhaps emotional reactions to traumatic occurrances, not by some guru
                          Message 12 of 21 , May 17, 2005
                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "ser_el_ser"
                            <ser_el_ser@y...> wrote:
                            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea" <jeff@
                            > m...> wrote:
                            > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                            > > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                            > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                            > > > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                            > > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "subhash naik"
                            > > > > <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
                            > > > > ...all the past impressions
                            > > > > > (called samskaras) which we have built up in our minds and that
                            > > > > condition our
                            > > > > > behaviour and existence.When the past impressions are
                            > > > > eradicated,material
                            > > > > > existence falls into its proper place,as does every other facet
                            > > of
                            > > > > our existence.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Yes, this is a most
                            > > > > beautiful experience.
                            > > > > The essence of it is
                            > > > > written of in many
                            > > > > philosophies, religions
                            > > > > and spiritual traditions.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > When the conditioned
                            > > > > self" gives way to
                            > > > > the "True Self" one
                            > > > > is absolved of all
                            > > > > guilt and anguish -
                            > > > > and everything,
                            > > > > EVERYTHING, falls
                            > > > > into place.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > The absolved one now
                            > > > > faces existence in a
                            > > > > whole new light, as
                            > > > > a whole new being.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > "You shall know the
                            > > > > Truth, and The Truth
                            > > > > shall set you free."
                            > > > >
                            > > > > And, as The Tao says,
                            > > > > "If it wasn't bullshit
                            > > > > to the conditioned mind,
                            > > > > it wouldn't be The Way."
                            > > >
                            > > > That's all well and good. But the idea that
                            > > > this happens by way of a magical transferrence
                            > > > of some kind of mystical energy is bullshit.
                            > > >
                            > > > It happens over time by way of deconditioning
                            > > > and added clarity brought about by meditation.
                            > > >
                            > > > You don't get something for nothing, and there's
                            > > > no magical powers to do it for you.
                            > >
                            > > We don't know enough
                            > > to know whether we
                            > > know this or not.
                            >
                            > Hello Jeff and Jodi,
                            >
                            > I would like to enter here.
                            > Though I agree with Jodi that "It happens over time by way of
                            deconditioning
                            > and added clarity brought about by meditation" in the sense that
                            > understanding comes with time, I also know that thanks to a shocking
                            sudden
                            > realization one can know for once what the true nature of oneself is.

                            But those shocks come by way of sudden reckonings, or perhaps
                            emotional reactions to traumatic occurrances, not by some guru
                            waving his magic fingers at you.

                            > Though in my case deconditioning is still happening, the truth of
                            being is
                            > always known since this happening.
                            > From an exchange on Spiritual Humanism group, a lot of reflectioning
                            has
                            > been happening in the past days, since there seems that many that
                            > apparently are very clear, have not had this 'shocking sudden
                            realization', but
                            > apparently stand on this deconditioning along time as the only
                            means. When I
                            > come to describe what happened in my case, it is as difficult to
                            describe it
                            > from my side as to understand or accept it from the point of view of
                            those
                            > reading the post. So I am coming to accept that talking about this
                            happening
                            > goes nowhere.
                            > The point is, that the fact of not having had the "experience" with its
                            > consequent amazing realization of something so evident that was
                            never seen
                            > before, does not proves the invalidity or impossibility of it.
                            > And here comes the issue of denying.
                            > I have never flight on an Icarus, but I cannot deny the described
                            experiences
                            > of those who had, for the simple reason of not having had the same
                            > experience. I cannot deny.
                            >
                            > So this is why I feel that saying that these and that way or these
                            and that
                            > philosophy is not valid, is improper, and more than that, absolutely
                            unfair.
                            >
                            > Everything is possible. Evidently, not within the thinking process
                            or the
                            > rational limitations, but within existence.
                            >
                            > So why deny anything? If you, Jodi, want to help others see their
                            delusions
                            > and make them open their eyes, is it not possible without denying
                            > possibilities?
                            >
                            > Maria L

                            Because I'm convinced that believing in magical occurrances as
                            a way to establish one in realization work much more against
                            realization rather than for it. This is based on my own
                            experiences and observations. I was a close disciple of
                            one of these "transmission" gurus, and I observed first-hand
                            the fact that it wasn't by magic, but by *belief* in magic
                            that people got their "experiences." I also observed that
                            these experiences were generated at the *suggestion* of the
                            guru *before* he waved his magic fingers. I observed as well
                            that those who wanted to impress the guru had regular
                            experiences, because this pleased the guru to hear. Finally,
                            I observed that the "experiences" had this way were nothing
                            more than fantasies that led to nothing except a kind of
                            pride over having experienced them, which itself led to a
                            false sense of adeptness.

                            I'm not denying the possibility that realization cannot
                            occur in one of these contexts, I'm saying that the model
                            is *imagined* rather than real. It's faith-healing, not
                            magical transmission. The "experiences" these folks get
                            are psychological/emotional, *interpreted* to be spiritual.

                            The Upanishads say it's not a thought, feeling, idea, or
                            experience. Anything you feel is a feeling. Anything
                            you think is a thought. 'This' is neither, and while the
                            direct knowing of 'this' occurs in a context of thought
                            and feeling, those who know it know it has as much to do
                            with either as my dog's ass.
                          • ser_el_ser
                            ... Thanks, very good reply. Maria
                            Message 13 of 21 , May 17, 2005
                              ....snip
                              > >
                              > > Hello Jeff and Jodi,
                              > >
                              > > I would like to enter here.
                              > > Though I agree with Jodi that "It happens over time by way of
                              > deconditioning
                              > > and added clarity brought about by meditation" in the sense that
                              > > understanding comes with time, I also know that thanks to a shocking
                              > sudden
                              > > realization one can know for once what the true nature of oneself is.
                              >
                              > But those shocks come by way of sudden reckonings, or perhaps
                              > emotional reactions to traumatic occurrances, not by some guru
                              > waving his magic fingers at you.
                              >
                              > > Though in my case deconditioning is still happening, the truth of
                              > being is
                              > > always known since this happening.
                              > > From an exchange on Spiritual Humanism group, a lot of reflectioning
                              > has
                              > > been happening in the past days, since there seems that many that
                              > > apparently are very clear, have not had this 'shocking sudden
                              > realization', but
                              > > apparently stand on this deconditioning along time as the only
                              > means. When I
                              > > come to describe what happened in my case, it is as difficult to
                              > describe it
                              > > from my side as to understand or accept it from the point of view of
                              > those
                              > > reading the post. So I am coming to accept that talking about this
                              > happening
                              > > goes nowhere.
                              > > The point is, that the fact of not having had the "experience" with its
                              > > consequent amazing realization of something so evident that was
                              > never seen
                              > > before, does not proves the invalidity or impossibility of it.
                              > > And here comes the issue of denying.
                              > > I have never flight on an Icarus, but I cannot deny the described
                              > experiences
                              > > of those who had, for the simple reason of not having had the same
                              > > experience. I cannot deny.
                              > >
                              > > So this is why I feel that saying that these and that way or these
                              > and that
                              > > philosophy is not valid, is improper, and more than that, absolutely
                              > unfair.
                              > >
                              > > Everything is possible. Evidently, not within the thinking process
                              > or the
                              > > rational limitations, but within existence.
                              > >
                              > > So why deny anything? If you, Jodi, want to help others see their
                              > delusions
                              > > and make them open their eyes, is it not possible without denying
                              > > possibilities?
                              > >
                              > > Maria L
                              >
                              > Because I'm convinced that believing in magical occurrances as
                              > a way to establish one in realization work much more against
                              > realization rather than for it. This is based on my own
                              > experiences and observations. I was a close disciple of
                              > one of these "transmission" gurus, and I observed first-hand
                              > the fact that it wasn't by magic, but by *belief* in magic
                              > that people got their "experiences." I also observed that
                              > these experiences were generated at the *suggestion* of the
                              > guru *before* he waved his magic fingers. I observed as well
                              > that those who wanted to impress the guru had regular
                              > experiences, because this pleased the guru to hear. Finally,
                              > I observed that the "experiences" had this way were nothing
                              > more than fantasies that led to nothing except a kind of
                              > pride over having experienced them, which itself led to a
                              > false sense of adeptness.
                              >
                              > I'm not denying the possibility that realization cannot
                              > occur in one of these contexts, I'm saying that the model
                              > is *imagined* rather than real. It's faith-healing, not
                              > magical transmission. The "experiences" these folks get
                              > are psychological/emotional, *interpreted* to be spiritual.
                              >
                              > The Upanishads say it's not a thought, feeling, idea, or
                              > experience. Anything you feel is a feeling. Anything
                              > you think is a thought. 'This' is neither, and while the
                              > direct knowing of 'this' occurs in a context of thought
                              > and feeling, those who know it know it has as much to do
                              > with either as my dog's ass.


                              Thanks, very good reply.

                              Maria
                            • globe peace
                              Hi all, Greetings. I found this link, that narrates the author s experience on meditation - cool and beautiful - http://www.udaypai.net/begin.htm Worth reading
                              Message 14 of 21 , May 17, 2005

                                Hi all,

                                Greetings. I found this link, that narrates the author's experience on meditation - cool and beautiful -
                                http://www.udaypai.net/begin.htm
                                Worth reading and we should encourage this guy
                                Peace and love

                                Martin

                                __________________________________________________
                                Do You Yahoo!?
                                Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                http://mail.yahoo.com

                              • Jeff Belyea
                                Jody, I m not an advocate of the transmission view, and you know that. I just can t resist jostling your certainty whenever I read your fiery this is
                                Message 15 of 21 , May 18, 2005
                                  Jody,

                                  I'm not an advocate of
                                  the transmission view,
                                  and you know that. I
                                  just can't resist jostling
                                  your "certainty" whenever
                                  I read your fiery "this is
                                  nothing more than..."
                                  attempts to present your
                                  bitter bluster as objective
                                  truth.

                                  That fundamentalists' fungi
                                  stinks worse than any flight
                                  of glittery creative rubric
                                  that goes into the make-up
                                  of the guru magic show.

                                  Voltaire, another fiery
                                  habanero imbiber who
                                  did his share of singes
                                  in his time, said,
                                  "Uncertainly may be
                                  uncomfortable, but
                                  certainty is ridiculous."

                                  Anyway, I love your
                                  writing style. Even if
                                  the content is blustery,
                                  your tenacity is awesome.
                                  It's like...(another of
                                  my bruxism-producing
                                  favorites)...never not
                                  the case.

                                  Your relentless pursuit
                                  of the phoney guru hasn't
                                  abated for a minute since
                                  your own Guru Application
                                  was turned down.

                                  You even have a handle on
                                  what constitutes a "real"
                                  guru? Where are they?
                                  Who are they?


                                  Love transmitting
                                  every minute,

                                  Jeff

                                  PS: This has to bring
                                  Bruce out.



                                  >
                                  > I've been in the presence of 4 well-known gurus,
                                  > and I've seen people practically flipping on the
                                  > ground like fish over them, but there was never
                                  > any evidence of anything more than their ideas
                                  > about the gurus causing anything. If "transmission"
                                  > was really a legit avenue for realization, why aren't
                                  > ALL of Amma's devotees realized?
                                  >
                                  > Amma's devotees will say because we're not pure
                                  > enough. And that is the occluding idea which Amma
                                  > clogs their brains with. The fact is that everyone
                                  > has it—as you know—they just don't all see it.
                                  > It has nothing to do with purity and everything to
                                  > do with a simple lack of recognition. That's what
                                  > a real guru helps you with. S/he doesn't bathe you
                                  > in their "divine" light. That's just sales boilerplate
                                  > to keep the satsang junkies coming. What a real guru
                                  > does is recognize the Self in the devotee, and gently
                                  > attempt to put the devotee's attention there.
                                  >
                                  > If gurus did that instead of enjoying all the adulation
                                  > that comes with being thought of as God, a whole lot
                                  > more of their devotees would actually come to realization,
                                  > rather than getting stuck in a cul-de-sac of shame and
                                  > obsessiveness over not being pure enough to know God.
                                  >
                                  > That is one of the biggest tragedies wrought by the
                                  > egregious misinterpretation of Vedanta by the hagio-
                                  > deluded progenitors of neo Hinduism coming out of
                                  > India these days.
                                • jodyrrr
                                  ... It s not coming from a bitter place, Jeff, but a frustrated and exasperated one. Frustrated by the many wrong ideas and beliefs about gurus, and
                                  Message 16 of 21 , May 19, 2005
                                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                                    <jeff@m...> wrote:
                                    > Jody,
                                    >
                                    > I'm not an advocate of
                                    > the transmission view,
                                    > and you know that. I
                                    > just can't resist jostling
                                    > your "certainty" whenever
                                    > I read your fiery "this is
                                    > nothing more than..."
                                    > attempts to present your
                                    > bitter bluster as objective
                                    > truth.

                                    It's not coming from a bitter place, Jeff,
                                    but a frustrated and exasperated one.

                                    Frustrated by the many wrong ideas and
                                    beliefs about gurus, and exasperated by
                                    those who believe and promote them.

                                    > That fundamentalists' fungi
                                    > stinks worse than any flight
                                    > of glittery creative rubric
                                    > that goes into the make-up
                                    > of the guru magic show.

                                    Fundamentalist? Not at all, Jeff.
                                    I'm convinced any path will work,
                                    including the heaviest guru bhakti
                                    with the most narcissistic of the
                                    "divine" among us.

                                    It's not what you believe (or who
                                    you are believing in,) it's how you
                                    believe it.

                                    I'm not saying that the "magic" can't
                                    work, I'm that believing in magical
                                    gurus is not one bit different from
                                    believing in fairy tales as children.
                                    And like children waiting to see the
                                    tooth fairy, many folks get stuck waiting
                                    for something that will never come, their
                                    idea of magical enlightenment being the
                                    primary impediment.

                                    > Voltaire, another fiery
                                    > habanero imbiber who
                                    > did his share of singes
                                    > in his time, said,
                                    > "Uncertainly may be
                                    > uncomfortable, but
                                    > certainty is ridiculous."

                                    My "certainty" is much more in how I'm
                                    sounding rather than what I'm meaning.
                                    As I said, the whole (ridiculous) magic
                                    thing can work. It does work. That's
                                    why it's so successful. But the way it
                                    works is just like faith-healing. The
                                    guru doesn't have the power, *you* do.
                                    You allow yourself to experience your
                                    *own* power in the presence of a guru,
                                    because having a guru around allows you
                                    to believe it will happen.

                                    > Anyway, I love your
                                    > writing style. Even if
                                    > the content is blustery,
                                    > your tenacity is awesome.
                                    > It's like...(another of
                                    > my bruxism-producing
                                    > favorites)...never not
                                    > the case.

                                    I suppose I'm a bit of a broken record
                                    about these things. Ces't la vie.

                                    > Your relentless pursuit
                                    > of the phoney guru hasn't
                                    > abated for a minute since
                                    > your own Guru Application
                                    > was turned down.

                                    My "relentless pursuit" was going long,
                                    long before that little debacle. I never
                                    considered that application valid
                                    anyway, given the state of mind of the
                                    manager there. Besides, everyone I respect
                                    *except* you were out of that comeditragedy
                                    soon after I left anyway.

                                    > You even have a handle on
                                    > what constitutes a "real"
                                    > guru? Where are they?
                                    > Who are they?

                                    Anyone who knows who they are and are *not*
                                    on any kind of pedestal, whether by their own
                                    devices or that of their devotees.

                                    A real guru makes sure his/her people know
                                    that they are just exactly like them, in the
                                    same boat of life floating on the same sea
                                    together. A real guru makes everyone know
                                    that they are just as divine as anyone else,
                                    that divinity is right here, right now in
                                    all of our lives, exclusive of no one.

                                    --jody

                                    BTW: I'm heading into the bush for a few days.
                                    I'll be back online Monday.

                                    > Love transmitting
                                    > every minute,
                                    >
                                    > Jeff
                                    >
                                    > PS: This has to bring
                                    > Bruce out.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    > > I've been in the presence of 4 well-known gurus,
                                    > > and I've seen people practically flipping on the
                                    > > ground like fish over them, but there was never
                                    > > any evidence of anything more than their ideas
                                    > > about the gurus causing anything. If "transmission"
                                    > > was really a legit avenue for realization, why aren't
                                    > > ALL of Amma's devotees realized?
                                    > >
                                    > > Amma's devotees will say because we're not pure
                                    > > enough. And that is the occluding idea which Amma
                                    > > clogs their brains with. The fact is that everyone
                                    > > has it—as you know—they just don't all see it.
                                    > > It has nothing to do with purity and everything to
                                    > > do with a simple lack of recognition. That's what
                                    > > a real guru helps you with. S/he doesn't bathe you
                                    > > in their "divine" light. That's just sales boilerplate
                                    > > to keep the satsang junkies coming. What a real guru
                                    > > does is recognize the Self in the devotee, and gently
                                    > > attempt to put the devotee's attention there.
                                    > >
                                    > > If gurus did that instead of enjoying all the adulation
                                    > > that comes with being thought of as God, a whole lot
                                    > > more of their devotees would actually come to realization,
                                    > > rather than getting stuck in a cul-de-sac of shame and
                                    > > obsessiveness over not being pure enough to know God.
                                    > >
                                    > > That is one of the biggest tragedies wrought by the
                                    > > egregious misinterpretation of Vedanta by the hagio-
                                    > > deluded progenitors of neo Hinduism coming out of
                                    > > India these days.
                                  • Jeff Belyea
                                    Thanks, Jody - Nice response. All is well. Best, Jeff
                                    Message 17 of 21 , May 19, 2005
                                      Thanks, Jody -

                                      Nice response.

                                      All is well.

                                      Best,

                                      Jeff

                                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                      <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                                      > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                                      > > Jody,
                                      > >
                                      > > I'm not an advocate of
                                      > > the transmission view,
                                      > > and you know that. I
                                      > > just can't resist jostling
                                      > > your "certainty" whenever
                                      > > I read your fiery "this is
                                      > > nothing more than..."
                                      > > attempts to present your
                                      > > bitter bluster as objective
                                      > > truth.
                                      >
                                      > It's not coming from a bitter place, Jeff,
                                      > but a frustrated and exasperated one.
                                      >
                                      > Frustrated by the many wrong ideas and
                                      > beliefs about gurus, and exasperated by
                                      > those who believe and promote them.
                                      >
                                      > > That fundamentalists' fungi
                                      > > stinks worse than any flight
                                      > > of glittery creative rubric
                                      > > that goes into the make-up
                                      > > of the guru magic show.
                                      >
                                      > Fundamentalist? Not at all, Jeff.
                                      > I'm convinced any path will work,
                                      > including the heaviest guru bhakti
                                      > with the most narcissistic of the
                                      > "divine" among us.
                                      >
                                      > It's not what you believe (or who
                                      > you are believing in,) it's how you
                                      > believe it.
                                      >
                                      > I'm not saying that the "magic" can't
                                      > work, I'm that believing in magical
                                      > gurus is not one bit different from
                                      > believing in fairy tales as children.
                                      > And like children waiting to see the
                                      > tooth fairy, many folks get stuck waiting
                                      > for something that will never come, their
                                      > idea of magical enlightenment being the
                                      > primary impediment.
                                      >
                                      > > Voltaire, another fiery
                                      > > habanero imbiber who
                                      > > did his share of singes
                                      > > in his time, said,
                                      > > "Uncertainly may be
                                      > > uncomfortable, but
                                      > > certainty is ridiculous."
                                      >
                                      > My "certainty" is much more in how I'm
                                      > sounding rather than what I'm meaning.
                                      > As I said, the whole (ridiculous) magic
                                      > thing can work. It does work. That's
                                      > why it's so successful. But the way it
                                      > works is just like faith-healing. The
                                      > guru doesn't have the power, *you* do.
                                      > You allow yourself to experience your
                                      > *own* power in the presence of a guru,
                                      > because having a guru around allows you
                                      > to believe it will happen.
                                      >
                                      > > Anyway, I love your
                                      > > writing style. Even if
                                      > > the content is blustery,
                                      > > your tenacity is awesome.
                                      > > It's like...(another of
                                      > > my bruxism-producing
                                      > > favorites)...never not
                                      > > the case.
                                      >
                                      > I suppose I'm a bit of a broken record
                                      > about these things. Ces't la vie.
                                      >
                                      > > Your relentless pursuit
                                      > > of the phoney guru hasn't
                                      > > abated for a minute since
                                      > > your own Guru Application
                                      > > was turned down.
                                      >
                                      > My "relentless pursuit" was going long,
                                      > long before that little debacle. I never
                                      > considered that application valid
                                      > anyway, given the state of mind of the
                                      > manager there. Besides, everyone I respect
                                      > *except* you were out of that comeditragedy
                                      > soon after I left anyway.
                                      >
                                      > > You even have a handle on
                                      > > what constitutes a "real"
                                      > > guru? Where are they?
                                      > > Who are they?
                                      >
                                      > Anyone who knows who they are and are *not*
                                      > on any kind of pedestal, whether by their own
                                      > devices or that of their devotees.
                                      >
                                      > A real guru makes sure his/her people know
                                      > that they are just exactly like them, in the
                                      > same boat of life floating on the same sea
                                      > together. A real guru makes everyone know
                                      > that they are just as divine as anyone else,
                                      > that divinity is right here, right now in
                                      > all of our lives, exclusive of no one.
                                      >
                                      > --jody
                                      >
                                      > BTW: I'm heading into the bush for a few days.
                                      > I'll be back online Monday.
                                      >
                                      > > Love transmitting
                                      > > every minute,
                                      > >
                                      > > Jeff
                                      > >
                                      > > PS: This has to bring
                                      > > Bruce out.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I've been in the presence of 4 well-known gurus,
                                      > > > and I've seen people practically flipping on the
                                      > > > ground like fish over them, but there was never
                                      > > > any evidence of anything more than their ideas
                                      > > > about the gurus causing anything. If "transmission"
                                      > > > was really a legit avenue for realization, why aren't
                                      > > > ALL of Amma's devotees realized?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Amma's devotees will say because we're not pure
                                      > > > enough. And that is the occluding idea which Amma
                                      > > > clogs their brains with. The fact is that everyone
                                      > > > has it—as you know—they just don't all see it.
                                      > > > It has nothing to do with purity and everything to
                                      > > > do with a simple lack of recognition. That's what
                                      > > > a real guru helps you with. S/he doesn't bathe you
                                      > > > in their "divine" light. That's just sales boilerplate
                                      > > > to keep the satsang junkies coming. What a real guru
                                      > > > does is recognize the Self in the devotee, and gently
                                      > > > attempt to put the devotee's attention there.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > If gurus did that instead of enjoying all the adulation
                                      > > > that comes with being thought of as God, a whole lot
                                      > > > more of their devotees would actually come to realization,
                                      > > > rather than getting stuck in a cul-de-sac of shame and
                                      > > > obsessiveness over not being pure enough to know God.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > That is one of the biggest tragedies wrought by the
                                      > > > egregious misinterpretation of Vedanta by the hagio-
                                      > > > deluded progenitors of neo Hinduism coming out of
                                      > > > India these days.
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