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Re: WHAT IS TRANSMISSION ?

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  • Jeff Belyea
    Jody - Are you trying to recreate GR here in peaceful Bob s place, with your fiery vanguard? Have another habanero. With all of love s transmission that one
    Message 1 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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      Jody -

      Are you trying to
      recreate GR here
      in peaceful Bob's
      place, with your
      fiery vanguard?

      Have another
      habanero.

      With all of love's
      transmission
      that one guru
      can muster,

      Jeff


      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
      <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "subhash naik"
      > <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
      > > An essential and unique feature of Sahaj Marg is the direct help
      and
      > > guidance of the Master in the form of transmission of Divine
      Energy
      > (called
      > > 'PRANAHUTI' IN Sanskrit) from the Master to the aspirant.
      >
      > Magical nonsense designed to make your guru rich.
      >
      > > When the Divine Energy is transmitted into the heart of the
      practician
      > > (abhyasi),the practician is then filled with a force higher than
      > himself and
      > > therefore his,evolution or progress becomes very much faster
      and,in
      > essence
      > > is independent of his own capacity for progress.
      >
      > Mystifatically ridiculous.
      >
      > > Also by the Master's power,the Transmission erases all the past
      > impressions
      > > (called samskaras) which we have built up in our minds and that
      > condition our
      > > behaviour and existence.When the past impressions are
      > eradicated,material
      > > existence falls into its proper place,as does every other facet of
      > our existence.
      >
      > Complete and utter bullshit.
    • Jeff Belyea
      ... wrote: ... condition our ... eradicated,material ... our existence. Yes, this is a most beautiful experience. The essence of it is written
      Message 2 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "subhash naik"
        <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
        ...all the past impressions
        > (called samskaras) which we have built up in our minds and that
        condition our
        > behaviour and existence.When the past impressions are
        eradicated,material
        > existence falls into its proper place,as does every other facet of
        our existence.


        Yes, this is a most
        beautiful experience.
        The essence of it is
        written of in many
        philosophies, religions
        and spiritual traditions.

        When the conditioned
        self" gives way to
        the "True Self" one
        is absolved of all
        guilt and anguish -
        and everything,
        EVERYTHING, falls
        into place.

        The absolved one now
        faces existence in a
        whole new light, as
        a whole new being.

        "You shall know the
        Truth, and The Truth
        shall set you free."

        And, as The Tao says,
        "If it wasn't bullshit
        to the conditioned mind,
        it wouldn't be The Way."
      • medit8ionsociety
        ... Yo Papajeff, You re probably right on the money with labeling Jodyji s remarks as having the GuruRatings group flavor about them. And this brings to mind
        Message 3 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
          <jeff@m...> wrote:
          > Jody -
          >
          > Are you trying to
          > recreate GR here
          > in peaceful Bob's
          > place, with your
          > fiery vanguard?
          >
          > Have another
          > habanero.
          >
          > With all of love's
          > transmission
          > that one guru
          > can muster,
          >
          > Jeff

          Yo Papajeff,
          You're probably right on the money with labeling
          Jodyji's remarks as having the GuruRatings group
          flavor about them. And this brings to mind other times
          here where one side of an issue (who's a real
          Guru and who's not) and another had great debates that
          were pretty ugly and didn't seem to fit the beauty
          and tranquility that meditation usually is associated
          with. But now, as then, I think (and that will always
          cause trouble:-) that both Jodiji and Sri Subhash Naik
          have good intentions. One seeks to spare others from
          wasting time on a path that leads to nowhere, and the
          other to help point out a path they have found to be
          beneficial. But - "...the road to Hell is paved with
          good intentions", and I know you remember how we
          ended up with hundreds of posts here that were mostly
          "You're a jerk and a fraud" "Oh yeah - well so are
          you and so's your mother", or something similar. So,
          as in life, even a meditative one, there are always
          going to be times that are seemingly incongruous
          with the environment we would like to be in, but often
          these are the times that we can learn the most. I hope
          that this is just such a moment for this group. And
          if it starts to get out of hand, I have a feeling that
          another window will open and a gust of fresh air will
          get the stink out of the room. In any event, we always
          have the option of the "can't go wrong" strategy of
          silently witnessing the events and paying attention
          with "good" intention. And if that doesn't do it, well,
          we can always start talking about the Eagles chances
          of going back to the Superbowl if TO holds out.

          Peace and blessings,
          Bob
          >
          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
          > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
          > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "subhash naik"
          > > <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
          > > > An essential and unique feature of Sahaj Marg is the direct
          help
          > and
          > > > guidance of the Master in the form of transmission of Divine
          > Energy
          > > (called
          > > > 'PRANAHUTI' IN Sanskrit) from the Master to the aspirant.
          > >
          > > Magical nonsense designed to make your guru rich.
          > >
          > > > When the Divine Energy is transmitted into the heart of the
          > practician
          > > > (abhyasi),the practician is then filled with a force higher than
          > > himself and
          > > > therefore his,evolution or progress becomes very much faster
          > and,in
          > > essence
          > > > is independent of his own capacity for progress.
          > >
          > > Mystifatically ridiculous.
          > >
          > > > Also by the Master's power,the Transmission erases all the past
          > > impressions
          > > > (called samskaras) which we have built up in our minds and that
          > > condition our
          > > > behaviour and existence.When the past impressions are
          > > eradicated,material
          > > > existence falls into its proper place,as does every other facet
          of
          > > our existence.
          > >
          > > Complete and utter bullshit.
        • jodyrrr
          ... That s all well and good. But the idea that this happens by way of a magical transferrence of some kind of mystical energy is bullshit. It happens over
          Message 4 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
            <jeff@m...> wrote:
            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "subhash naik"
            > <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
            > ...all the past impressions
            > > (called samskaras) which we have built up in our minds and that
            > condition our
            > > behaviour and existence.When the past impressions are
            > eradicated,material
            > > existence falls into its proper place,as does every other facet of
            > our existence.
            >
            >
            > Yes, this is a most
            > beautiful experience.
            > The essence of it is
            > written of in many
            > philosophies, religions
            > and spiritual traditions.
            >
            > When the conditioned
            > self" gives way to
            > the "True Self" one
            > is absolved of all
            > guilt and anguish -
            > and everything,
            > EVERYTHING, falls
            > into place.
            >
            > The absolved one now
            > faces existence in a
            > whole new light, as
            > a whole new being.
            >
            > "You shall know the
            > Truth, and The Truth
            > shall set you free."
            >
            > And, as The Tao says,
            > "If it wasn't bullshit
            > to the conditioned mind,
            > it wouldn't be The Way."

            That's all well and good. But the idea that
            this happens by way of a magical transferrence
            of some kind of mystical energy is bullshit.

            It happens over time by way of deconditioning
            and added clarity brought about by meditation.

            You don't get something for nothing, and there's
            no magical powers to do it for you.
          • jodyrrr
            ... wrote: [snip] ... Actually, I believe Sahaj Marg will work just as good as anything. Included in that anything are the practices listed at
            Message 5 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
              <no_reply@y...> wrote:

              [snip]

              > that both Jodiji and Sri Subhash Naik
              > have good intentions. One seeks to spare others from
              > wasting time on a path that leads to nowhere, and the
              > other to help point out a path they have found to be
              > beneficial.

              Actually, I believe Sahaj Marg will work just as good
              as anything. Included in that anything are the practices
              listed at meditationsociety.org. I'm not doubting that
              it works, just the idea that you have to PAY for it, and
              the idea that it's better than other, more economical
              methods.

              But the thing that really gets my panties knotted is the
              idea that its effacacy is due to a magical transmission that
              comes from a "master." This idea is clearly in the realm
              of magical thinking and is no better than a fairy tale.
              But this fairy tale is being used to promote the practice.

              That's what's BS about it. It's a marketing hook along
              the lines of those used by snake oil salesman. The so-called
              "masters" powers are no more effective than those of my
              dog. The practice may work, but it works by means of
              creating sattvas in the mind, not because some guru
              somewhere is dosing you with a "transmission."

              --jody.

              [snip]
            • jodyrrr
              ... Are you asking me to pipe down, Jeff? I can do that. Perhaps after Subhash begins to refrain from his incessant guru pimping. --jody.
              Message 6 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                <jeff@m...> wrote:
                > Jody -
                >
                > Are you trying to
                > recreate GR here
                > in peaceful Bob's
                > place, with your
                > fiery vanguard?
                >
                > Have another
                > habanero.
                >
                > With all of love's
                > transmission
                > that one guru
                > can muster,
                >
                > Jeff

                Are you asking me to pipe down, Jeff?

                I can do that. Perhaps after Subhash
                begins to refrain from his incessant
                guru pimping.

                --jody.

                >
                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "subhash naik"
                > > <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
                > > > An essential and unique feature of Sahaj Marg is the direct help
                > and
                > > > guidance of the Master in the form of transmission of Divine
                > Energy
                > > (called
                > > > 'PRANAHUTI' IN Sanskrit) from the Master to the aspirant.
                > >
                > > Magical nonsense designed to make your guru rich.
                > >
                > > > When the Divine Energy is transmitted into the heart of the
                > practician
                > > > (abhyasi),the practician is then filled with a force higher than
                > > himself and
                > > > therefore his,evolution or progress becomes very much faster
                > and,in
                > > essence
                > > > is independent of his own capacity for progress.
                > >
                > > Mystifatically ridiculous.
                > >
                > > > Also by the Master's power,the Transmission erases all the past
                > > impressions
                > > > (called samskaras) which we have built up in our minds and that
                > > condition our
                > > > behaviour and existence.When the past impressions are
                > > eradicated,material
                > > > existence falls into its proper place,as does every other facet of
                > > our existence.
                > >
                > > Complete and utter bullshit.
              • medit8ionsociety
                ... Yo Jodyji, I won t address the validity of your labeling Sri Subhash s actions as guru pimping (even though I must admit that the phrase made me laugh),
                Message 7 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                  <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                  > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                  > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                  > > Jody -
                  > >
                  > > Are you trying to
                  > > recreate GR here
                  > > in peaceful Bob's
                  > > place, with your
                  > > fiery vanguard?
                  > >
                  > > Have another
                  > > habanero.
                  > >
                  > > With all of love's
                  > > transmission
                  > > that one guru
                  > > can muster,
                  > >
                  > > Jeff
                  >
                  > Are you asking me to pipe down, Jeff?
                  >
                  > I can do that. Perhaps after Subhash
                  > begins to refrain from his incessant
                  > guru pimping.
                  >
                  > --jody.
                  >
                  Yo Jodyji,
                  I won't address the validity of your labeling
                  Sri Subhash's actions as "guru pimping" (even though
                  I must admit that the phrase made me laugh), but
                  the adverb/adjective "incessant" might be a bit
                  off base. For a while there had been several
                  posts a day about Sahaj Marg and when I asked to
                  have that limited to one per day, so as to not
                  turn this forum excessivly into a Sahaj Marg
                  advertisement, Sri Subhash graciously agreed,
                  and has continued complying with my request 100%.
                  I now feel it right to release him from that limit
                  should he care to respond to you. And of course, your
                  posts are always welcome and appreciated.
                  Peace and blessings,
                  Bob
                • jodyrrr
                  ... Once every day or so with the same exact content qualifies as incessant in my book. ... It s still advertising at one per day, especially given the static
                  Message 8 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
                    <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                    > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                    > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                    > > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                    > > > Jody -
                    > > >
                    > > > Are you trying to
                    > > > recreate GR here
                    > > > in peaceful Bob's
                    > > > place, with your
                    > > > fiery vanguard?
                    > > >
                    > > > Have another
                    > > > habanero.
                    > > >
                    > > > With all of love's
                    > > > transmission
                    > > > that one guru
                    > > > can muster,
                    > > >
                    > > > Jeff
                    > >
                    > > Are you asking me to pipe down, Jeff?
                    > >
                    > > I can do that. Perhaps after Subhash
                    > > begins to refrain from his incessant
                    > > guru pimping.
                    > >
                    > > --jody.
                    > >
                    > Yo Jodyji,
                    > I won't address the validity of your labeling
                    > Sri Subhash's actions as "guru pimping" (even though
                    > I must admit that the phrase made me laugh), but
                    > the adverb/adjective "incessant" might be a bit
                    > off base.

                    Once every day or so with the same exact content
                    qualifies as incessant in my book.

                    > For a while there had been several
                    > posts a day about Sahaj Marg and when I asked to
                    > have that limited to one per day, so as to not
                    > turn this forum excessivly into a Sahaj Marg
                    > advertisement, Sri Subhash graciously agreed,
                    > and has continued complying with my request 100%.

                    It's still advertising at one per day, especially
                    given the static content.

                    > I now feel it right to release him from that limit
                    > should he care to respond to you. And of course, your
                    > posts are always welcome and appreciated.
                    > Peace and blessings,
                    > Bob

                    I welcome the opportunity.

                    Thanks, Bob.

                    --jody.
                  • Jeff Belyea
                    ... of ... We don t know enough to know whether we know this or not.
                    Message 9 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                      <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                      > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                      > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "subhash naik"
                      > > <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
                      > > ...all the past impressions
                      > > > (called samskaras) which we have built up in our minds and that
                      > > condition our
                      > > > behaviour and existence.When the past impressions are
                      > > eradicated,material
                      > > > existence falls into its proper place,as does every other facet
                      of
                      > > our existence.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Yes, this is a most
                      > > beautiful experience.
                      > > The essence of it is
                      > > written of in many
                      > > philosophies, religions
                      > > and spiritual traditions.
                      > >
                      > > When the conditioned
                      > > self" gives way to
                      > > the "True Self" one
                      > > is absolved of all
                      > > guilt and anguish -
                      > > and everything,
                      > > EVERYTHING, falls
                      > > into place.
                      > >
                      > > The absolved one now
                      > > faces existence in a
                      > > whole new light, as
                      > > a whole new being.
                      > >
                      > > "You shall know the
                      > > Truth, and The Truth
                      > > shall set you free."
                      > >
                      > > And, as The Tao says,
                      > > "If it wasn't bullshit
                      > > to the conditioned mind,
                      > > it wouldn't be The Way."
                      >
                      > That's all well and good. But the idea that
                      > this happens by way of a magical transferrence
                      > of some kind of mystical energy is bullshit.
                      >
                      > It happens over time by way of deconditioning
                      > and added clarity brought about by meditation.
                      >
                      > You don't get something for nothing, and there's
                      > no magical powers to do it for you.

                      We don't know enough
                      to know whether we
                      know this or not.
                    • Jeff Belyea
                      ... Bob addressed it well. Having received his transmission, I will simply open a window when your literary lurches, propelled by habanero lunch, reach the
                      Message 10 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                        <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                        > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                        > > Jody -
                        > >
                        > > Are you trying to
                        > > recreate GR here
                        > > in peaceful Bob's
                        > > place, with your
                        > > fiery vanguard?
                        > >
                        > > Have another
                        > > habanero.
                        > >
                        > > With all of love's
                        > > transmission
                        > > that one guru
                        > > can muster,
                        > >
                        > > Jeff
                        >
                        > Are you asking me to pipe down, Jeff?
                        >
                        > I can do that. Perhaps after Subhash
                        > begins to refrain from his incessant
                        > guru pimping.
                        >
                        > --jody.
                        >

                        Bob addressed it well.

                        Having received his
                        transmission, I will
                        simply open a window
                        when your literary
                        lurches, propelled by
                        habanero lunch, reach
                        the launchpad of
                        digestive release.

                        In an earlier incarnation,
                        weren't you the one
                        who poo-pooed the
                        theory of flight,
                        breaking the 4-minute
                        mile barrier, and the
                        very idea of transmitting
                        pictures over a cable?


                        10

                        9

                        8

                        7

                        6

                        ...open window.
                      • jodyrrr
                        ... That s what the magic apologists like to say. How can you know that you know. Because I can find a more likely explantion that doesn t resort to
                        Message 11 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                          <jeff@m...> wrote:
                          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                          > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                          > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                          > > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                          > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "subhash naik"
                          > > > <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
                          > > > ...all the past impressions
                          > > > > (called samskaras) which we have built up in our minds and that
                          > > > condition our
                          > > > > behaviour and existence.When the past impressions are
                          > > > eradicated,material
                          > > > > existence falls into its proper place,as does every other facet
                          > of
                          > > > our existence.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Yes, this is a most
                          > > > beautiful experience.
                          > > > The essence of it is
                          > > > written of in many
                          > > > philosophies, religions
                          > > > and spiritual traditions.
                          > > >
                          > > > When the conditioned
                          > > > self" gives way to
                          > > > the "True Self" one
                          > > > is absolved of all
                          > > > guilt and anguish -
                          > > > and everything,
                          > > > EVERYTHING, falls
                          > > > into place.
                          > > >
                          > > > The absolved one now
                          > > > faces existence in a
                          > > > whole new light, as
                          > > > a whole new being.
                          > > >
                          > > > "You shall know the
                          > > > Truth, and The Truth
                          > > > shall set you free."
                          > > >
                          > > > And, as The Tao says,
                          > > > "If it wasn't bullshit
                          > > > to the conditioned mind,
                          > > > it wouldn't be The Way."
                          > >
                          > > That's all well and good. But the idea that
                          > > this happens by way of a magical transferrence
                          > > of some kind of mystical energy is bullshit.
                          > >
                          > > It happens over time by way of deconditioning
                          > > and added clarity brought about by meditation.
                          > >
                          > > You don't get something for nothing, and there's
                          > > no magical powers to do it for you.
                          >
                          > We don't know enough
                          > to know whether we
                          > know this or not.

                          That's what the magic apologists like to say.

                          "How can you know that you know."

                          Because I can find a more likely explantion
                          that doesn't resort to mystified nonsense.
                          And because *anything* in the realm of magical
                          is *always* phenomenological. So, two people
                          will experience their "magic" in completely
                          different ways. This puts such phenomena
                          squarely in the category 'imaginal,' IOW,
                          made up.

                          If someone gets a cold, they're likely to
                          believe it came from a germ rather
                          than believing a curse was set upon them.

                          But as soon as a "divine" guru enters the
                          equation, all reason flies right out the window,
                          and normally rational folk are prepared to
                          believe all kinds of utter nonsense. Just
                          hang out at an Amma satsang to catch a
                          glimpse.

                          It's a form of infantilism that pollutes
                          spiritual culture like a plague of ignorance.

                          And it keeps people from seeing the truth of
                          their own being, because they are taught to
                          believe it only comes by way of the magic
                          "transmissions" of their guru. It may as
                          well be a nocturnal emmission. At least then
                          you are getting something real, if not icky
                          and sticky and gross.
                        • jodyrrr
                          ... That s a reverse metaphor, Jeff. You are talking of the progression from magic to rational with these examples. Observing birds in flight, I can imagine
                          Message 12 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                            <jeff@m...> wrote:
                            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                            > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                            > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                            > > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                            > > > Jody -
                            > > >
                            > > > Are you trying to
                            > > > recreate GR here
                            > > > in peaceful Bob's
                            > > > place, with your
                            > > > fiery vanguard?
                            > > >
                            > > > Have another
                            > > > habanero.
                            > > >
                            > > > With all of love's
                            > > > transmission
                            > > > that one guru
                            > > > can muster,
                            > > >
                            > > > Jeff
                            > >
                            > > Are you asking me to pipe down, Jeff?
                            > >
                            > > I can do that. Perhaps after Subhash
                            > > begins to refrain from his incessant
                            > > guru pimping.
                            > >
                            > > --jody.
                            > >
                            >
                            > Bob addressed it well.
                            >
                            > Having received his
                            > transmission, I will
                            > simply open a window
                            > when your literary
                            > lurches, propelled by
                            > habanero lunch, reach
                            > the launchpad of
                            > digestive release.
                            >
                            > In an earlier incarnation,
                            > weren't you the one
                            > who poo-pooed the
                            > theory of flight,
                            > breaking the 4-minute
                            > mile barrier, and the
                            > very idea of transmitting
                            > pictures over a cable?
                            >
                            >
                            > 10
                            >
                            > 9
                            >
                            > 8
                            >
                            > 7
                            >
                            > 6
                            >
                            > ...open window.

                            That's a reverse metaphor, Jeff.

                            You are talking of the progression from
                            magic to rational with these examples.

                            Observing birds in flight, I can imagine
                            men one day doing so.

                            Seeing men going faster and faster, I can
                            imagine a 4-minute mile.

                            Seeing a photograph and knowing of the
                            telegraph, I can imagine pictures over cable.

                            But not seeing anything like a "transmission"
                            from a guru, and only having my subjective
                            interpretation of my experience, and the
                            subjective interpretation of others' experience,
                            and knowing that these interpretations are almost
                            always completely different from one another;
                            I'm making a huge, irrational leap to believe
                            that such is occurring in the light of a more
                            simple explanation, that the so-called "transmitted"
                            experiences are nothing more than self-suggested
                            wish fulfillment.

                            I've been in the presence of 4 well-known gurus,
                            and I've seen people practically flipping on the
                            ground like fish over them, but there was never
                            any evidence of anything more than their ideas
                            about the gurus causing anything. If "transmission"
                            was really a legit avenue for realization, why aren't
                            ALL of Amma's devotees realized?

                            Amma's devotees will say because we're not pure
                            enough. And that is the occluding idea which Amma
                            clogs their brains with. The fact is that everyone
                            has it—as you know—they just don't all see it.
                            It has nothing to do with purity and everything to
                            do with a simple lack of recognition. That's what
                            a real guru helps you with. S/he doesn't bathe you
                            in their "divine" light. That's just sales boilerplate
                            to keep the satsang junkies coming. What a real guru
                            does is recognize the Self in the devotee, and gently
                            attempt to put the devotee's attention there.

                            If gurus did that instead of enjoying all the adulation
                            that comes with being thought of as God, a whole lot
                            more of their devotees would actually come to realization,
                            rather than getting stuck in a cul-de-sac of shame and
                            obsessiveness over not being pure enough to know God.

                            That is one of the biggest tragedies wrought by the
                            egregious misinterpretation of Vedanta by the hagio-
                            deluded progenitors of neo Hinduism coming out of
                            India these days.
                          • ser_el_ser
                            ... Hello Jeff and Jodi, I would like to enter here. Though I agree with Jodi that It happens over time by way of deconditioning and added clarity brought
                            Message 13 of 21 , May 17, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea" <jeff@
                              m...> wrote:
                              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                              > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                              > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                              > > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                              > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "subhash naik"
                              > > > <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
                              > > > ...all the past impressions
                              > > > > (called samskaras) which we have built up in our minds and that
                              > > > condition our
                              > > > > behaviour and existence.When the past impressions are
                              > > > eradicated,material
                              > > > > existence falls into its proper place,as does every other facet
                              > of
                              > > > our existence.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Yes, this is a most
                              > > > beautiful experience.
                              > > > The essence of it is
                              > > > written of in many
                              > > > philosophies, religions
                              > > > and spiritual traditions.
                              > > >
                              > > > When the conditioned
                              > > > self" gives way to
                              > > > the "True Self" one
                              > > > is absolved of all
                              > > > guilt and anguish -
                              > > > and everything,
                              > > > EVERYTHING, falls
                              > > > into place.
                              > > >
                              > > > The absolved one now
                              > > > faces existence in a
                              > > > whole new light, as
                              > > > a whole new being.
                              > > >
                              > > > "You shall know the
                              > > > Truth, and The Truth
                              > > > shall set you free."
                              > > >
                              > > > And, as The Tao says,
                              > > > "If it wasn't bullshit
                              > > > to the conditioned mind,
                              > > > it wouldn't be The Way."
                              > >
                              > > That's all well and good. But the idea that
                              > > this happens by way of a magical transferrence
                              > > of some kind of mystical energy is bullshit.
                              > >
                              > > It happens over time by way of deconditioning
                              > > and added clarity brought about by meditation.
                              > >
                              > > You don't get something for nothing, and there's
                              > > no magical powers to do it for you.
                              >
                              > We don't know enough
                              > to know whether we
                              > know this or not.

                              Hello Jeff and Jodi,

                              I would like to enter here.
                              Though I agree with Jodi that "It happens over time by way of deconditioning
                              and added clarity brought about by meditation" in the sense that
                              understanding comes with time, I also know that thanks to a shocking sudden
                              realization one can know for once what the true nature of oneself is.
                              Though in my case deconditioning is still happening, the truth of being is
                              always known since this happening.
                              From an exchange on Spiritual Humanism group, a lot of reflectioning has
                              been happening in the past days, since there seems that many that
                              apparently are very clear, have not had this 'shocking sudden realization', but
                              apparently stand on this deconditioning along time as the only means. When I
                              come to describe what happened in my case, it is as difficult to describe it
                              from my side as to understand or accept it from the point of view of those
                              reading the post. So I am coming to accept that talking about this happening
                              goes nowhere.
                              The point is, that the fact of not having had the "experience" with its
                              consequent amazing realization of something so evident that was never seen
                              before, does not proves the invalidity or impossibility of it.
                              And here comes the issue of denying.
                              I have never flight on an Icarus, but I cannot deny the described experiences
                              of those who had, for the simple reason of not having had the same
                              experience. I cannot deny.

                              So this is why I feel that saying that these and that way or these and that
                              philosophy is not valid, is improper, and more than that, absolutely unfair.

                              Everything is possible. Evidently, not within the thinking process or the
                              rational limitations, but within existence.

                              So why deny anything? If you, Jodi, want to help others see their delusions
                              and make them open their eyes, is it not possible without denying
                              possibilities?

                              Maria L
                            • jodyrrr
                              ... deconditioning ... sudden ... But those shocks come by way of sudden reckonings, or perhaps emotional reactions to traumatic occurrances, not by some guru
                              Message 14 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "ser_el_ser"
                                <ser_el_ser@y...> wrote:
                                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea" <jeff@
                                > m...> wrote:
                                > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                > > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                                > > > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                                > > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "subhash naik"
                                > > > > <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
                                > > > > ...all the past impressions
                                > > > > > (called samskaras) which we have built up in our minds and that
                                > > > > condition our
                                > > > > > behaviour and existence.When the past impressions are
                                > > > > eradicated,material
                                > > > > > existence falls into its proper place,as does every other facet
                                > > of
                                > > > > our existence.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Yes, this is a most
                                > > > > beautiful experience.
                                > > > > The essence of it is
                                > > > > written of in many
                                > > > > philosophies, religions
                                > > > > and spiritual traditions.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > When the conditioned
                                > > > > self" gives way to
                                > > > > the "True Self" one
                                > > > > is absolved of all
                                > > > > guilt and anguish -
                                > > > > and everything,
                                > > > > EVERYTHING, falls
                                > > > > into place.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > The absolved one now
                                > > > > faces existence in a
                                > > > > whole new light, as
                                > > > > a whole new being.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > "You shall know the
                                > > > > Truth, and The Truth
                                > > > > shall set you free."
                                > > > >
                                > > > > And, as The Tao says,
                                > > > > "If it wasn't bullshit
                                > > > > to the conditioned mind,
                                > > > > it wouldn't be The Way."
                                > > >
                                > > > That's all well and good. But the idea that
                                > > > this happens by way of a magical transferrence
                                > > > of some kind of mystical energy is bullshit.
                                > > >
                                > > > It happens over time by way of deconditioning
                                > > > and added clarity brought about by meditation.
                                > > >
                                > > > You don't get something for nothing, and there's
                                > > > no magical powers to do it for you.
                                > >
                                > > We don't know enough
                                > > to know whether we
                                > > know this or not.
                                >
                                > Hello Jeff and Jodi,
                                >
                                > I would like to enter here.
                                > Though I agree with Jodi that "It happens over time by way of
                                deconditioning
                                > and added clarity brought about by meditation" in the sense that
                                > understanding comes with time, I also know that thanks to a shocking
                                sudden
                                > realization one can know for once what the true nature of oneself is.

                                But those shocks come by way of sudden reckonings, or perhaps
                                emotional reactions to traumatic occurrances, not by some guru
                                waving his magic fingers at you.

                                > Though in my case deconditioning is still happening, the truth of
                                being is
                                > always known since this happening.
                                > From an exchange on Spiritual Humanism group, a lot of reflectioning
                                has
                                > been happening in the past days, since there seems that many that
                                > apparently are very clear, have not had this 'shocking sudden
                                realization', but
                                > apparently stand on this deconditioning along time as the only
                                means. When I
                                > come to describe what happened in my case, it is as difficult to
                                describe it
                                > from my side as to understand or accept it from the point of view of
                                those
                                > reading the post. So I am coming to accept that talking about this
                                happening
                                > goes nowhere.
                                > The point is, that the fact of not having had the "experience" with its
                                > consequent amazing realization of something so evident that was
                                never seen
                                > before, does not proves the invalidity or impossibility of it.
                                > And here comes the issue of denying.
                                > I have never flight on an Icarus, but I cannot deny the described
                                experiences
                                > of those who had, for the simple reason of not having had the same
                                > experience. I cannot deny.
                                >
                                > So this is why I feel that saying that these and that way or these
                                and that
                                > philosophy is not valid, is improper, and more than that, absolutely
                                unfair.
                                >
                                > Everything is possible. Evidently, not within the thinking process
                                or the
                                > rational limitations, but within existence.
                                >
                                > So why deny anything? If you, Jodi, want to help others see their
                                delusions
                                > and make them open their eyes, is it not possible without denying
                                > possibilities?
                                >
                                > Maria L

                                Because I'm convinced that believing in magical occurrances as
                                a way to establish one in realization work much more against
                                realization rather than for it. This is based on my own
                                experiences and observations. I was a close disciple of
                                one of these "transmission" gurus, and I observed first-hand
                                the fact that it wasn't by magic, but by *belief* in magic
                                that people got their "experiences." I also observed that
                                these experiences were generated at the *suggestion* of the
                                guru *before* he waved his magic fingers. I observed as well
                                that those who wanted to impress the guru had regular
                                experiences, because this pleased the guru to hear. Finally,
                                I observed that the "experiences" had this way were nothing
                                more than fantasies that led to nothing except a kind of
                                pride over having experienced them, which itself led to a
                                false sense of adeptness.

                                I'm not denying the possibility that realization cannot
                                occur in one of these contexts, I'm saying that the model
                                is *imagined* rather than real. It's faith-healing, not
                                magical transmission. The "experiences" these folks get
                                are psychological/emotional, *interpreted* to be spiritual.

                                The Upanishads say it's not a thought, feeling, idea, or
                                experience. Anything you feel is a feeling. Anything
                                you think is a thought. 'This' is neither, and while the
                                direct knowing of 'this' occurs in a context of thought
                                and feeling, those who know it know it has as much to do
                                with either as my dog's ass.
                              • ser_el_ser
                                ... Thanks, very good reply. Maria
                                Message 15 of 21 , May 17, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  ....snip
                                  > >
                                  > > Hello Jeff and Jodi,
                                  > >
                                  > > I would like to enter here.
                                  > > Though I agree with Jodi that "It happens over time by way of
                                  > deconditioning
                                  > > and added clarity brought about by meditation" in the sense that
                                  > > understanding comes with time, I also know that thanks to a shocking
                                  > sudden
                                  > > realization one can know for once what the true nature of oneself is.
                                  >
                                  > But those shocks come by way of sudden reckonings, or perhaps
                                  > emotional reactions to traumatic occurrances, not by some guru
                                  > waving his magic fingers at you.
                                  >
                                  > > Though in my case deconditioning is still happening, the truth of
                                  > being is
                                  > > always known since this happening.
                                  > > From an exchange on Spiritual Humanism group, a lot of reflectioning
                                  > has
                                  > > been happening in the past days, since there seems that many that
                                  > > apparently are very clear, have not had this 'shocking sudden
                                  > realization', but
                                  > > apparently stand on this deconditioning along time as the only
                                  > means. When I
                                  > > come to describe what happened in my case, it is as difficult to
                                  > describe it
                                  > > from my side as to understand or accept it from the point of view of
                                  > those
                                  > > reading the post. So I am coming to accept that talking about this
                                  > happening
                                  > > goes nowhere.
                                  > > The point is, that the fact of not having had the "experience" with its
                                  > > consequent amazing realization of something so evident that was
                                  > never seen
                                  > > before, does not proves the invalidity or impossibility of it.
                                  > > And here comes the issue of denying.
                                  > > I have never flight on an Icarus, but I cannot deny the described
                                  > experiences
                                  > > of those who had, for the simple reason of not having had the same
                                  > > experience. I cannot deny.
                                  > >
                                  > > So this is why I feel that saying that these and that way or these
                                  > and that
                                  > > philosophy is not valid, is improper, and more than that, absolutely
                                  > unfair.
                                  > >
                                  > > Everything is possible. Evidently, not within the thinking process
                                  > or the
                                  > > rational limitations, but within existence.
                                  > >
                                  > > So why deny anything? If you, Jodi, want to help others see their
                                  > delusions
                                  > > and make them open their eyes, is it not possible without denying
                                  > > possibilities?
                                  > >
                                  > > Maria L
                                  >
                                  > Because I'm convinced that believing in magical occurrances as
                                  > a way to establish one in realization work much more against
                                  > realization rather than for it. This is based on my own
                                  > experiences and observations. I was a close disciple of
                                  > one of these "transmission" gurus, and I observed first-hand
                                  > the fact that it wasn't by magic, but by *belief* in magic
                                  > that people got their "experiences." I also observed that
                                  > these experiences were generated at the *suggestion* of the
                                  > guru *before* he waved his magic fingers. I observed as well
                                  > that those who wanted to impress the guru had regular
                                  > experiences, because this pleased the guru to hear. Finally,
                                  > I observed that the "experiences" had this way were nothing
                                  > more than fantasies that led to nothing except a kind of
                                  > pride over having experienced them, which itself led to a
                                  > false sense of adeptness.
                                  >
                                  > I'm not denying the possibility that realization cannot
                                  > occur in one of these contexts, I'm saying that the model
                                  > is *imagined* rather than real. It's faith-healing, not
                                  > magical transmission. The "experiences" these folks get
                                  > are psychological/emotional, *interpreted* to be spiritual.
                                  >
                                  > The Upanishads say it's not a thought, feeling, idea, or
                                  > experience. Anything you feel is a feeling. Anything
                                  > you think is a thought. 'This' is neither, and while the
                                  > direct knowing of 'this' occurs in a context of thought
                                  > and feeling, those who know it know it has as much to do
                                  > with either as my dog's ass.


                                  Thanks, very good reply.

                                  Maria
                                • globe peace
                                  Hi all, Greetings. I found this link, that narrates the author s experience on meditation - cool and beautiful - http://www.udaypai.net/begin.htm Worth reading
                                  Message 16 of 21 , May 17, 2005
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                                    Hi all,

                                    Greetings. I found this link, that narrates the author's experience on meditation - cool and beautiful -
                                    http://www.udaypai.net/begin.htm
                                    Worth reading and we should encourage this guy
                                    Peace and love

                                    Martin

                                    __________________________________________________
                                    Do You Yahoo!?
                                    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                    http://mail.yahoo.com

                                  • Jeff Belyea
                                    Jody, I m not an advocate of the transmission view, and you know that. I just can t resist jostling your certainty whenever I read your fiery this is
                                    Message 17 of 21 , May 18, 2005
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                                      Jody,

                                      I'm not an advocate of
                                      the transmission view,
                                      and you know that. I
                                      just can't resist jostling
                                      your "certainty" whenever
                                      I read your fiery "this is
                                      nothing more than..."
                                      attempts to present your
                                      bitter bluster as objective
                                      truth.

                                      That fundamentalists' fungi
                                      stinks worse than any flight
                                      of glittery creative rubric
                                      that goes into the make-up
                                      of the guru magic show.

                                      Voltaire, another fiery
                                      habanero imbiber who
                                      did his share of singes
                                      in his time, said,
                                      "Uncertainly may be
                                      uncomfortable, but
                                      certainty is ridiculous."

                                      Anyway, I love your
                                      writing style. Even if
                                      the content is blustery,
                                      your tenacity is awesome.
                                      It's like...(another of
                                      my bruxism-producing
                                      favorites)...never not
                                      the case.

                                      Your relentless pursuit
                                      of the phoney guru hasn't
                                      abated for a minute since
                                      your own Guru Application
                                      was turned down.

                                      You even have a handle on
                                      what constitutes a "real"
                                      guru? Where are they?
                                      Who are they?


                                      Love transmitting
                                      every minute,

                                      Jeff

                                      PS: This has to bring
                                      Bruce out.



                                      >
                                      > I've been in the presence of 4 well-known gurus,
                                      > and I've seen people practically flipping on the
                                      > ground like fish over them, but there was never
                                      > any evidence of anything more than their ideas
                                      > about the gurus causing anything. If "transmission"
                                      > was really a legit avenue for realization, why aren't
                                      > ALL of Amma's devotees realized?
                                      >
                                      > Amma's devotees will say because we're not pure
                                      > enough. And that is the occluding idea which Amma
                                      > clogs their brains with. The fact is that everyone
                                      > has it—as you know—they just don't all see it.
                                      > It has nothing to do with purity and everything to
                                      > do with a simple lack of recognition. That's what
                                      > a real guru helps you with. S/he doesn't bathe you
                                      > in their "divine" light. That's just sales boilerplate
                                      > to keep the satsang junkies coming. What a real guru
                                      > does is recognize the Self in the devotee, and gently
                                      > attempt to put the devotee's attention there.
                                      >
                                      > If gurus did that instead of enjoying all the adulation
                                      > that comes with being thought of as God, a whole lot
                                      > more of their devotees would actually come to realization,
                                      > rather than getting stuck in a cul-de-sac of shame and
                                      > obsessiveness over not being pure enough to know God.
                                      >
                                      > That is one of the biggest tragedies wrought by the
                                      > egregious misinterpretation of Vedanta by the hagio-
                                      > deluded progenitors of neo Hinduism coming out of
                                      > India these days.
                                    • jodyrrr
                                      ... It s not coming from a bitter place, Jeff, but a frustrated and exasperated one. Frustrated by the many wrong ideas and beliefs about gurus, and
                                      Message 18 of 21 , May 19, 2005
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                                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                                        <jeff@m...> wrote:
                                        > Jody,
                                        >
                                        > I'm not an advocate of
                                        > the transmission view,
                                        > and you know that. I
                                        > just can't resist jostling
                                        > your "certainty" whenever
                                        > I read your fiery "this is
                                        > nothing more than..."
                                        > attempts to present your
                                        > bitter bluster as objective
                                        > truth.

                                        It's not coming from a bitter place, Jeff,
                                        but a frustrated and exasperated one.

                                        Frustrated by the many wrong ideas and
                                        beliefs about gurus, and exasperated by
                                        those who believe and promote them.

                                        > That fundamentalists' fungi
                                        > stinks worse than any flight
                                        > of glittery creative rubric
                                        > that goes into the make-up
                                        > of the guru magic show.

                                        Fundamentalist? Not at all, Jeff.
                                        I'm convinced any path will work,
                                        including the heaviest guru bhakti
                                        with the most narcissistic of the
                                        "divine" among us.

                                        It's not what you believe (or who
                                        you are believing in,) it's how you
                                        believe it.

                                        I'm not saying that the "magic" can't
                                        work, I'm that believing in magical
                                        gurus is not one bit different from
                                        believing in fairy tales as children.
                                        And like children waiting to see the
                                        tooth fairy, many folks get stuck waiting
                                        for something that will never come, their
                                        idea of magical enlightenment being the
                                        primary impediment.

                                        > Voltaire, another fiery
                                        > habanero imbiber who
                                        > did his share of singes
                                        > in his time, said,
                                        > "Uncertainly may be
                                        > uncomfortable, but
                                        > certainty is ridiculous."

                                        My "certainty" is much more in how I'm
                                        sounding rather than what I'm meaning.
                                        As I said, the whole (ridiculous) magic
                                        thing can work. It does work. That's
                                        why it's so successful. But the way it
                                        works is just like faith-healing. The
                                        guru doesn't have the power, *you* do.
                                        You allow yourself to experience your
                                        *own* power in the presence of a guru,
                                        because having a guru around allows you
                                        to believe it will happen.

                                        > Anyway, I love your
                                        > writing style. Even if
                                        > the content is blustery,
                                        > your tenacity is awesome.
                                        > It's like...(another of
                                        > my bruxism-producing
                                        > favorites)...never not
                                        > the case.

                                        I suppose I'm a bit of a broken record
                                        about these things. Ces't la vie.

                                        > Your relentless pursuit
                                        > of the phoney guru hasn't
                                        > abated for a minute since
                                        > your own Guru Application
                                        > was turned down.

                                        My "relentless pursuit" was going long,
                                        long before that little debacle. I never
                                        considered that application valid
                                        anyway, given the state of mind of the
                                        manager there. Besides, everyone I respect
                                        *except* you were out of that comeditragedy
                                        soon after I left anyway.

                                        > You even have a handle on
                                        > what constitutes a "real"
                                        > guru? Where are they?
                                        > Who are they?

                                        Anyone who knows who they are and are *not*
                                        on any kind of pedestal, whether by their own
                                        devices or that of their devotees.

                                        A real guru makes sure his/her people know
                                        that they are just exactly like them, in the
                                        same boat of life floating on the same sea
                                        together. A real guru makes everyone know
                                        that they are just as divine as anyone else,
                                        that divinity is right here, right now in
                                        all of our lives, exclusive of no one.

                                        --jody

                                        BTW: I'm heading into the bush for a few days.
                                        I'll be back online Monday.

                                        > Love transmitting
                                        > every minute,
                                        >
                                        > Jeff
                                        >
                                        > PS: This has to bring
                                        > Bruce out.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > > I've been in the presence of 4 well-known gurus,
                                        > > and I've seen people practically flipping on the
                                        > > ground like fish over them, but there was never
                                        > > any evidence of anything more than their ideas
                                        > > about the gurus causing anything. If "transmission"
                                        > > was really a legit avenue for realization, why aren't
                                        > > ALL of Amma's devotees realized?
                                        > >
                                        > > Amma's devotees will say because we're not pure
                                        > > enough. And that is the occluding idea which Amma
                                        > > clogs their brains with. The fact is that everyone
                                        > > has it—as you know—they just don't all see it.
                                        > > It has nothing to do with purity and everything to
                                        > > do with a simple lack of recognition. That's what
                                        > > a real guru helps you with. S/he doesn't bathe you
                                        > > in their "divine" light. That's just sales boilerplate
                                        > > to keep the satsang junkies coming. What a real guru
                                        > > does is recognize the Self in the devotee, and gently
                                        > > attempt to put the devotee's attention there.
                                        > >
                                        > > If gurus did that instead of enjoying all the adulation
                                        > > that comes with being thought of as God, a whole lot
                                        > > more of their devotees would actually come to realization,
                                        > > rather than getting stuck in a cul-de-sac of shame and
                                        > > obsessiveness over not being pure enough to know God.
                                        > >
                                        > > That is one of the biggest tragedies wrought by the
                                        > > egregious misinterpretation of Vedanta by the hagio-
                                        > > deluded progenitors of neo Hinduism coming out of
                                        > > India these days.
                                      • Jeff Belyea
                                        Thanks, Jody - Nice response. All is well. Best, Jeff
                                        Message 19 of 21 , May 19, 2005
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Thanks, Jody -

                                          Nice response.

                                          All is well.

                                          Best,

                                          Jeff

                                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                          <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                                          > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                                          > > Jody,
                                          > >
                                          > > I'm not an advocate of
                                          > > the transmission view,
                                          > > and you know that. I
                                          > > just can't resist jostling
                                          > > your "certainty" whenever
                                          > > I read your fiery "this is
                                          > > nothing more than..."
                                          > > attempts to present your
                                          > > bitter bluster as objective
                                          > > truth.
                                          >
                                          > It's not coming from a bitter place, Jeff,
                                          > but a frustrated and exasperated one.
                                          >
                                          > Frustrated by the many wrong ideas and
                                          > beliefs about gurus, and exasperated by
                                          > those who believe and promote them.
                                          >
                                          > > That fundamentalists' fungi
                                          > > stinks worse than any flight
                                          > > of glittery creative rubric
                                          > > that goes into the make-up
                                          > > of the guru magic show.
                                          >
                                          > Fundamentalist? Not at all, Jeff.
                                          > I'm convinced any path will work,
                                          > including the heaviest guru bhakti
                                          > with the most narcissistic of the
                                          > "divine" among us.
                                          >
                                          > It's not what you believe (or who
                                          > you are believing in,) it's how you
                                          > believe it.
                                          >
                                          > I'm not saying that the "magic" can't
                                          > work, I'm that believing in magical
                                          > gurus is not one bit different from
                                          > believing in fairy tales as children.
                                          > And like children waiting to see the
                                          > tooth fairy, many folks get stuck waiting
                                          > for something that will never come, their
                                          > idea of magical enlightenment being the
                                          > primary impediment.
                                          >
                                          > > Voltaire, another fiery
                                          > > habanero imbiber who
                                          > > did his share of singes
                                          > > in his time, said,
                                          > > "Uncertainly may be
                                          > > uncomfortable, but
                                          > > certainty is ridiculous."
                                          >
                                          > My "certainty" is much more in how I'm
                                          > sounding rather than what I'm meaning.
                                          > As I said, the whole (ridiculous) magic
                                          > thing can work. It does work. That's
                                          > why it's so successful. But the way it
                                          > works is just like faith-healing. The
                                          > guru doesn't have the power, *you* do.
                                          > You allow yourself to experience your
                                          > *own* power in the presence of a guru,
                                          > because having a guru around allows you
                                          > to believe it will happen.
                                          >
                                          > > Anyway, I love your
                                          > > writing style. Even if
                                          > > the content is blustery,
                                          > > your tenacity is awesome.
                                          > > It's like...(another of
                                          > > my bruxism-producing
                                          > > favorites)...never not
                                          > > the case.
                                          >
                                          > I suppose I'm a bit of a broken record
                                          > about these things. Ces't la vie.
                                          >
                                          > > Your relentless pursuit
                                          > > of the phoney guru hasn't
                                          > > abated for a minute since
                                          > > your own Guru Application
                                          > > was turned down.
                                          >
                                          > My "relentless pursuit" was going long,
                                          > long before that little debacle. I never
                                          > considered that application valid
                                          > anyway, given the state of mind of the
                                          > manager there. Besides, everyone I respect
                                          > *except* you were out of that comeditragedy
                                          > soon after I left anyway.
                                          >
                                          > > You even have a handle on
                                          > > what constitutes a "real"
                                          > > guru? Where are they?
                                          > > Who are they?
                                          >
                                          > Anyone who knows who they are and are *not*
                                          > on any kind of pedestal, whether by their own
                                          > devices or that of their devotees.
                                          >
                                          > A real guru makes sure his/her people know
                                          > that they are just exactly like them, in the
                                          > same boat of life floating on the same sea
                                          > together. A real guru makes everyone know
                                          > that they are just as divine as anyone else,
                                          > that divinity is right here, right now in
                                          > all of our lives, exclusive of no one.
                                          >
                                          > --jody
                                          >
                                          > BTW: I'm heading into the bush for a few days.
                                          > I'll be back online Monday.
                                          >
                                          > > Love transmitting
                                          > > every minute,
                                          > >
                                          > > Jeff
                                          > >
                                          > > PS: This has to bring
                                          > > Bruce out.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I've been in the presence of 4 well-known gurus,
                                          > > > and I've seen people practically flipping on the
                                          > > > ground like fish over them, but there was never
                                          > > > any evidence of anything more than their ideas
                                          > > > about the gurus causing anything. If "transmission"
                                          > > > was really a legit avenue for realization, why aren't
                                          > > > ALL of Amma's devotees realized?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Amma's devotees will say because we're not pure
                                          > > > enough. And that is the occluding idea which Amma
                                          > > > clogs their brains with. The fact is that everyone
                                          > > > has it—as you know—they just don't all see it.
                                          > > > It has nothing to do with purity and everything to
                                          > > > do with a simple lack of recognition. That's what
                                          > > > a real guru helps you with. S/he doesn't bathe you
                                          > > > in their "divine" light. That's just sales boilerplate
                                          > > > to keep the satsang junkies coming. What a real guru
                                          > > > does is recognize the Self in the devotee, and gently
                                          > > > attempt to put the devotee's attention there.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > If gurus did that instead of enjoying all the adulation
                                          > > > that comes with being thought of as God, a whole lot
                                          > > > more of their devotees would actually come to realization,
                                          > > > rather than getting stuck in a cul-de-sac of shame and
                                          > > > obsessiveness over not being pure enough to know God.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > That is one of the biggest tragedies wrought by the
                                          > > > egregious misinterpretation of Vedanta by the hagio-
                                          > > > deluded progenitors of neo Hinduism coming out of
                                          > > > India these days.
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