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Re: [Spiritual_Humanism] Non dualism?

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  • de la rouviere
    Dear Maria, Thank you for your well considered and courteous reply to some of the things i have said in my posts. ... to deny. You deny for example, the
    Message 1 of 2 , May 7 12:34 AM
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      Dear Maria,
       
      Thank you for your well considered and courteous reply to some of the things i have said in my posts.
       
      I fully respect and appreciate your position and as you say your ' first hand experience' of things.  You said:
       
      >>There is something with which I do not agree. As far as I
      understand, you tend
      to deny. You deny for example, the possibility (for me the reality) of
      Consciousness as sustained by itself. And you deny the possibility of eastern
      phylosophies and practices as still valid tools for the enquiry on the reality of
      the Self or Existance (of ourselves)>>. 

      >>By my first hand experience I may say
      that you deny things that cannot be
      denied. I feel you may question them untill you can, by your own observation
      or experience, decide the impossibility or non reality of these. But while there
      is a minimum possibility, it is not fair to deny anything. >>

      >>I say content  is impermanent...Consciousness is permanent
      (eternally
      present). Content appears, is sutained for a while and then disappears.
      Consciousness is that from which content arises and that which sustains it.
      Content is of time and space...Consiousness is out of time, out of space.
      And some more things about this subject, but I find this enough by now.>>
       
      (M)
       
      There are many theories about the creation of existence or how it arises.  Your's is the view generally held by many of the eastern tradions - especially the vedic/Advaitist sources. Creation is seen here as an emanation of an underlying Substance called Brahman, Self  or Consciousness.  But as you know, the Christians have a very different view on this. They believed God made the earth and so on in seven days.  Each primitive tribe has its own understanding of how things came or come into existence.  The Buddha rejected the Upanishadic views of Substance, either personal (Jiva) or impersonal/universal Atman/Consciousness/ Self and so on.  Instead, in Buddhism we find the notion of : Emptiness is form and form is emptiness. In one of his books, Godman gives us a further understanding of how Ramana once described the appaearnce of things according to a very ancient Vedic view which seems to agree more or less with my own sense of things.  Here the explanation is one of instantaneous present arising.  Reality appears as a present process of unfolding.
       
      So in view of these many diverse opinions of how things come into existence, it is clear that the Consciousness as Substance which exists prior to manifest existence, could be considered a view next to othwers. 
       
      My own sense is that on present evidence, and if i do not hold myself bondage within any presupposed explanation for the appearance of things, my own experience has yet to show me that any presumed separation between being aware of something and the thing itself is not false.  I have experimented with this for many years, and as yet this has never proven not to be the case.  Consciousness is not a 'thing' to be observed.  If so, what is the nature of the observer who has come it as object?  And if the reply to this question is 'Consciousness', then it proves my position that the observer and the observed cannot be separated into two distinct entities such as content 'which is impermanent' and consciousness 'which is permanent'.  You see here we still have a subtle dualism. 
       
      In the Buddhist notion of : emptiness is form and form and emptiness, we find no such dualism.  Emptiness is not necessarily projected as separate and superior (infinite, eternally present relative to content which is impermanent)) such as what you describe. Some have indeed tried to project this notion onto this statement, saying that 'emptiness' is a kind of Ground of being' from which form arises.  But this is most definitely not necessarilty implied in the statement.
       
      So I am very sorry if i disappoint you.  My intentions are as pure as yours.  But lets keep in touch and open our minds and hearts to all possibilities.  What else can we do?  If Consciousness is your reality, I am glad you have found something true ans stable in this strange and uncertain universe of human life.  My experience has led me to a different insight.  That is why I am critical of all these conventional 'truths'.  Finally they can all be pulled apart and shown to be little else but elaborate theories.  My own thing is based on present evidence.  One does not need a theory of creation to substantiate my description of present arising.  I am the first one to say I do not know how it works, and what it is - it is all one great mystery --  but at least I can say what is experienceintially verifyable for everyone.  And this verification implies necessarily a non-dual truth.
       
      >>Maybe I am not understanding correctly what you mean, so I hope you
      may
      answer this for my better understanding. You have worked hard, and your
      book looks impressioning, so I would prefer to be mis understanding rather to
      think that you are placing incomplete truths on the way of the seekers.>>.
       
      If you really want to find out what i am saying, please read my book.  But if you feel you may in principle disagree with me if i do not project your predetermined views, then it is better you stay with what you feel comfortable with and do not concern yourself with dissenting views.  My truth may indeed be incomplete.  But I have not come upon any other truth which is more complete. And this is what I try to share in my book.
       
      Not sure if i have made any sense.  Again thank you for your very sincere approach and clear dedication to what you believe in.
       
      Hand in hand,
      Moller de la Rouviere
      Author of : Spirituality Without God



       
    • ser_el_ser
      Dear Möller, It is this kind manner of yours which makes me communicate with you. It is not that I am looking for answers, since these come by themselves at
      Message 2 of 2 , May 7 12:24 PM
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        Dear Möller,

        It is this kind manner of yours which makes me communicate with you. It is not
        that I am looking for answers, since these come by themselves at this moment
        of my life and maybe this is why I am not very interested in reading your book,
        since what I have already read is enough to know what makes me write all
        this.
        I mentioned you have a wide and open mind, I also think you are very
        intelligent, and all these praises are being made by myself, just because I
        want to make clear that I appreciate your insights and the way you are
        exposing them. Your points of view and recommendations to seekers may
        indeed bring you many followers.
        And on this behalf, is why I make emphasis on your denying of some things,
        because you could say the same, without the need of denying the truth some
        ancient sages, some not so ancient and some actually living ones have
        discovered. My experience is that what this so called sages say is always the
        same. It is not about several theories saying different things about different
        truths. Little intelligence, or better to say intuition, should be enough for
        intuiting that there must be some universal truth, and if there is, it has to be
        one, not several, for then relativity comes into play, and a radical, unic and
        total truth would not be possible.

        But putting aside any sage, realized, enlightened or whatever person or
        being´s sayings, it is by my own experience that I talk.

        I know that to say there is one and only truth sounds very bad. I don´t need to
        exchange with too many people for this, what to say about interent
        exchanges. It is enough to have a very close and large family of about 20
        people, where only one merely understands what I try to say. Maybe another
        two may doubt but respect my point of view, and the rest just may think I am
        crazy (on this respect), at the least.

        I found that I exist from ever and for ever, and if I do not exist, nothing could
        ever exist. And this is the only thing I now for true, for absolutely true. Any
        other thing I know is relative, and changes with time. At the light of reason, this
        is a very difficult statement to explain, maybe better to say it is impossible.
        Because to such a statement you cannot arrive by reasoning. I would never
        arrive to it because any great teacher would come and tell me this, not me,
        because I do not believe in anything, I have always been very suspicious
        about such truths and only truths of any kind.

        I use the word Consciousness, because I believe the dictionary (forgive my
        naiveness) places this word as a recognized one on these issues, for people
        to communicate with each other. I also have studied Vedanta Phylosopfhy as
        well as Ramana Maharshi, and the use of this word has become enoughly
        widely extended among people searching for the truth of themselves. I even
        make a distinction between consience and consciousness, and put a capital
        letter on it, because it is something on the field of intuition more than that of
        reason or thought.

        After arriving to this discovery, that I exist eternally and everything depends on
        me, I could compare what several sages, not phylosophies, say, and they
        point to the same truth. Once I have arrived to it by myself, I understand
        whatever you would like about existance, being the case of mystery, not so
        much mysterious, but intuitively evident... and continuing to be a mystery... for
        mind, not for itself.

        Since this is my own truth, which I recongnize and understand as the same
        truth for every one, and being that I would spend this temporary life on
        sustaining the statements derived from it, is that I feel so compelled in asking
        you, with your so wide understanding of the movements of mind, not to deny
        something, just because this reality has not been revealed to yourself yet.

        Now, putting aside the issue of denying whatever, I am very open to share
        and discuss the issues that I may be capable of working with.

        Much love to you, and be well,

        Maria


        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "de la rouviere" <
        mollerdlr@t...> wrote:
        > Dear Maria,
        >
        > Thank you for your well considered and courteous reply to some of the
        things i have said in my posts.
        >
        > I fully respect and appreciate your position and as you say your ' first hand
        experience' of things. You said:
        >
        > >>There is something with which I do not agree. As far as I understand, you
        tend
        > to deny. You deny for example, the possibility (for me the reality) of
        > Consciousness as sustained by itself. And you deny the possibility of
        eastern
        > phylosophies and practices as still valid tools for the enquiry on the reality of
        > the Self or Existance (of ourselves)>>.
        >
        > >>By my first hand experience I may say that you deny things that cannot be
        > denied. I feel you may question them untill you can, by your own
        observation
        > or experience, decide the impossibility or non reality of these. But while
        there
        > is a minimum possibility, it is not fair to deny anything. >>
        >
        > >>I say content is impermanent...Consciousness is permanent (eternally
        > present). Content appears, is sutained for a while and then disappears.
        > Consciousness is that from which content arises and that which sustains it.
        > Content is of time and space...Consiousness is out of time, out of space.
        > And some more things about this subject, but I find this enough by now.>>
        >
        > (M)
        >
        > There are many theories about the creation of existence or how it arises.
        Your's is the view generally held by many of the eastern tradions - especially
        the vedic/Advaitist sources. Creation is seen here as an emanation of an
        underlying Substance called Brahman, Self or Consciousness. But as you
        know, the Christians have a very different view on this. They believed God
        made the earth and so on in seven days. Each primitive tribe has its own
        understanding of how things came or come into existence. The Buddha
        rejected the Upanishadic views of Substance, either personal (Jiva) or
        impersonal/universal Atman/Consciousness/ Self and so on. Instead, in
        Buddhism we find the notion of : Emptiness is form and form is emptiness. In
        one of his books, Godman gives us a further understanding of how Ramana
        once described the appaearnce of things according to a very ancient Vedic
        view which seems to agree more or less with my own sense of things. Here
        the explanation is one of instantaneous present arising. Reality appears as a
        present process of unfolding.
        >
        > So in view of these many diverse opinions of how things come into
        existence, it is clear that the Consciousness as Substance which exists prior
        to manifest existence, could be considered a view next to othwers.
        >
        > My own sense is that on present evidence, and if i do not hold myself
        bondage within any presupposed explanation for the appearance of things,
        my own experience has yet to show me that any presumed separation
        between being aware of something and the thing itself is not false. I have
        experimented with this for many years, and as yet this has never proven not to
        be the case. Consciousness is not a 'thing' to be observed. If so, what is the
        nature of the observer who has come it as object? And if the reply to this
        question is 'Consciousness', then it proves my position that the observer and
        the observed cannot be separated into two distinct entities such as content
        'which is impermanent' and consciousness 'which is permanent'. You see
        here we still have a subtle dualism.
        >
        > In the Buddhist notion of : emptiness is form and form and emptiness, we
        find no such dualism. Emptiness is not necessarily projected as separate and
        superior (infinite, eternally present relative to content which is impermanent))
        such as what you describe. Some have indeed tried to project this notion onto
        this statement, saying that 'emptiness' is a kind of Ground of being' from which
        form arises. But this is most definitely not necessarilty implied in the
        statement.
        >
        > So I am very sorry if i disappoint you. My intentions are as pure as yours.
        But lets keep in touch and open our minds and hearts to all possibilities.
        What else can we do? If Consciousness is your reality, I am glad you have
        found something true ans stable in this strange and uncertain universe of
        human life. My experience has led me to a different insight. That is why I am
        critical of all these conventional 'truths'. Finally they can all be pulled apart
        and shown to be little else but elaborate theories. My own thing is based on
        present evidence. One does not need a theory of creation to substantiate my
        description of present arising. I am the first one to say I do not know how it
        works, and what it is - it is all one great mystery -- but at least I can say what is
        experienceintially verifyable for everyone. And this verification implies
        necessarily a non-dual truth.
        >
        > >>Maybe I am not understanding correctly what you mean, so I hope you
        may
        > answer this for my better understanding. You have worked hard, and your
        > book looks impressioning, so I would prefer to be mis understanding rather
        to
        > think that you are placing incomplete truths on the way of the seekers.>>.
        >
        > If you really want to find out what i am saying, please read my book. But if
        you feel you may in principle disagree with me if i do not project your
        predetermined views, then it is better you stay with what you feel comfortable
        with and do not concern yourself with dissenting views. My truth may indeed
        be incomplete. But I have not come upon any other truth which is more
        complete. And this is what I try to share in my book.
        >
        > Not sure if i have made any sense. Again thank you for your very sincere
        approach and clear dedication to what you believe in.
        >
        > Hand in hand,
        > Moller de la Rouviere
        > Author of : Spirituality Without God
        > www.spiritualhumanism.co.za
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