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Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: TRANSMISSION

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  • de la rouviere
    Dear Jeff, May I come in here with some kind of observation. ... comes from a place of despair, degradation, shame and guilt, and the hope is for release from
    Message 1 of 22 , May 6, 2005
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      Dear Jeff,
       
      May I come in here with some kind of observation.
       
      You said:
       
       >>Yes, we can. When the enquiry
      comes from a place of despair,
      degradation, shame and guilt,
      and the hope is for release
      from their grip,>> snip..
       
      Could it also be that this kind of suffering-based enquiry could have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross suffering has worked itself gradually out of the system there remains the pure suffering of duality in its most delicate form yet to be transcended? 
       
      I guess what I am suggesting is that there is the totally untrimmed tree to start with and all that is evident are forms of emotional, psychological and mental disturbances.  These no doubt form the bulk of the conscious experience of separation at that level of disorganization.  However, there comes a time along the path of self-enquiry where these things no longer distract the practitioner so heavily from inner silence and some sense of freedom from conditioning and shadow emotional stuff.  This in itself brings a lightness of being, but there is still the residual state of duality present, which could easily again be drawn into mere reactivity and mental distortion.  Yet, at this stage, one is no longer driven by the gross suffering of personal historical stuff.  What is on the table is just the mere sense of duality.  It seems to me that only when this has been recognized as suffering and ways have been found to transcend this fundamental inclination towards mere separateness, can the freedom of which you may be speaking reveal itself.
       
      Or perhaps we may be talking about different experiences altogether?.  It is really difficult to apprehend the very many manifestations of freedom from where people nowadays speak.  So many claim freedom and enlightement.  I often find it difficult to fully appreciate where they are coming from. In the olden days, and as tradition has it, practioners in the Zen tradition actually often left their teachers, or were sent away to other teachers to have the different levels of their 'enlightenment' verified, disputed, worked on etc. lest the student fools h/herself into truly believing they are fully enlightened while perhaps the finer points might still be missing.  As yet, we have no such kind of 'peer review' in the west relative to our enlightening experiences. So we all seem just have our own relative light to stand or fall by.  This may of course create some serious confusion for many  - and a ready breeding ground for illusion?
       
      Have a good weekend,
      Moller de la Rouviere
       
       
    • Jeff Belyea
      ... have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross suffering has worked
      Message 2 of 22 , May 6, 2005
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "de la rouviere"
        <mollerdlr@t...> wrote:
        > Dear Jeff,
        >
        > May I come in here with some kind of observation.
        >
        > You said:
        >
        > >>Yes, we can. When the enquiry
        > comes from a place of despair,
        > degradation, shame and guilt,
        > and the hope is for release
        > from their grip,>> snip..
        >
        > Could it also be that this kind of suffering-based enquiry could
        have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from
        the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross
        suffering has worked itself gradually out of the system there remains
        the pure suffering of duality in its most delicate form yet to be
        transcended?
        >
        > I guess what I am suggesting is that there is the totally untrimmed
        tree to start with and all that is evident are forms of emotional,
        psychological and mental disturbances. These no doubt form the bulk
        of the conscious experience of separation at that level of
        disorganization. However, there comes a time along the path of self-
        enquiry where these things no longer distract the practitioner so
        heavily from inner silence and some sense of freedom from
        conditioning and shadow emotional stuff. This in itself brings a
        lightness of being, but there is still the residual state of duality
        present, which could easily again be drawn into mere reactivity and
        mental distortion. Yet, at this stage, one is no longer driven by
        the gross suffering of personal historical stuff. What is on the
        table is just the mere sense of duality. It seems to me that only
        when this has been recognized as suffering and ways have been found
        to transcend this fundamental inclination towards mere separateness,
        can the freedom of which you may be speaking reveal itself.
        >
        > Or perhaps we may be talking about different experiences
        altogether?. It is really difficult to apprehend the very many
        manifestations of freedom from where people nowadays speak. So many
        claim freedom and enlightement. I often find it difficult to fully
        appreciate where they are coming from. In the olden days, and as
        tradition has it, practioners in the Zen tradition actually often
        left their teachers, or were sent away to other teachers to have the
        different levels of their 'enlightenment' verified, disputed, worked
        on etc. lest the student fools h/herself into truly believing they
        are fully enlightened while perhaps the finer points might still be
        missing. As yet, we have no such kind of 'peer review' in the west
        relative to our enlightening experiences. So we all seem just have
        our own relative light to stand or fall by. This may of course
        create some serious confusion for many - and a ready breeding ground
        for illusion?
        >
        > Have a good weekend,
        > Moller de la Rouviere
        > www.spiritualhumanism.co.za

        Thank you, Moller.

        Of course, we can only
        speak authentically
        from our own direct
        experience. And, yes,
        this is a difficult
        task - to communicate
        our personal experience
        clearly and completely.

        The gradual working out
        of the issues that were
        the root causes of
        suffering, either through
        the grace of time or
        with the help of a
        therapeutic approach
        is distinctly different
        from the experience of
        Enlightened Awakening, a
        "stepping into perfection"
        in which the startling
        realization of "all is well"
        presents itself, as if
        beyond anything the mind
        has previously thought
        or imagined.

        The latter mends the
        illusion of separation
        and sense of duality, and
        leaves a residual sweetness
        as an undercurrent of
        day-to-day consciousness
        (as Jody and Greg have
        noted in recent posts)
        that is above any and all
        circumstances of life
        events.

        So many models attempt
        to distinguish between
        the therapeutic recovery
        and the Enlightened, more
        dramatic resolution of
        suffering. And even these
        have subsets. The savikalpa
        and nirvikalpa, and then
        sahaj samadhi, come to
        mind.

        The easing of suffering
        through time erasure of
        the sting, the temporary
        Enlightenment of savikalpa
        samadhi, and the seemingly
        permanent shift of awareness
        and Awakening to the
        "Ture Self" of nirvikalpa
        samadhi are neat distinctions,
        but as you've written,
        can cause a lot of confusion
        and maybe even delusion.

        Additionally, those who
        feel compelled, or as
        Bruce Morgen writes, are
        "choicelessly obligated"
        to share the good news
        of Enlightenment, seem
        to innocenlty over-promise
        the availability of this
        New Wisdom, Understanding,
        Experiential Knowledge.

        The Big Guys of Gurudom,
        and the relatively unknown
        Awakened Teachers, seem
        to all offer a model or
        point to a path that they
        walked, with the expectation
        that a similar walk will
        produce a similar result.

        As Bruce and Jeff Brooks
        have written; if this
        were so, we would have
        millions instead of
        hundreds of Awakened
        Ones, Buddhas, Christs,
        Krisnas, on earth now.

        As for the much-hunted
        deluded gurus, it seems
        that this is a much-overblown
        hunt. It is unimaginable
        that anyone would step up
        to the role without the
        experiential knowledge -
        for some power trip or
        monetary reward. That
        hunt is left for others.

        Those who fire verbal
        bombast at any talk or
        writing of Enlightenment
        are the more discouraging
        and disparaging game in
        my crosshairs.

        Peace,

        Jeff
      • Jeff Belyea
        ... Hi Jody - Thanks. The dissolving of the idea of me is one of those subtle and difficult to describe aspects of Awakening that has the rational mind hear
        Message 3 of 22 , May 9, 2005
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
          <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
          > <jeff@m...> wrote:
          >
          > [snip]
          >
          > > To those, like Jody, for
          > > whom it was more of an
          > > "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
          > > and life goes on, there
          > > are typically no jimmies,
          > > no cherries, but a sweetness
          > > nevertheless. Even Greg
          > > uses the words "sweetness
          > > and light" in his report.
          > >
          > > (Sorry, Michael.)
          > >
          > > Sweet as ever,
          > >
          > > Jeff
          >
          > Actually, the "seeing" of "it" was accompanied
          > by the simultaneous dissolving of the "idea of
          > me" as Ramakrishna terms it. Watching that me
          > dissolve was almost a shock, but it happened so
          > quickly that there wasn't time for a reaction.
          >
          > This isn't to say I don't have a sense of "me,"
          > just that its hold on identity was shattered, and
          > has remained so ever since.
          >
          > I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
          > although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
          > before it all went down.
          >
          > --jody.


          Hi Jody -

          Thanks.

          The dissolving of the "idea
          of me" is one of those subtle
          and difficult to describe
          aspects of Awakening that
          has the rational mind hear
          a metal-pipe clang.

          That shift out of the personal
          sense of "ego" to just "being"
          brings the sweet relief from
          taking anything personally, and
          it not only allows for continuity
          of the fiery asshole persona...
          it transforms one predisposed
          to being a fiery asshole
          into a fearless fiery asshole;
          taming the lions of fear and
          doubt and replacing those with
          a hot and sweet pepper undercurrent.

          Love, as always,

          Jeff
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