Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

[Meditation Society of America] Re: TRANSMISSION

Expand Messages
  • Greg Goode
    ... ===Yeah, that s just it. Even aging, the deaths of parents, friends, terminal illnesses, my wife going to federal detention for an indeterminate period,
    Message 1 of 22 , May 5, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
      <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:


      > I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
      > although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
      > before it all went down.

      ===Yeah, that's just it. Even aging, the deaths of parents, friends,
      terminal illnesses, my wife going to federal detention for an
      indeterminate period, not enough cash for her bail (no bail bonds
      accepted for immigration stuff), $1200 phone bills, bleeding
      rollerblading accidents, bike accidents, sprains -- all this isn't
      separate from sweetness, space and light.

      --Greg
    • de la rouviere
      Dear Jeff, May I come in here with some kind of observation. ... comes from a place of despair, degradation, shame and guilt, and the hope is for release from
      Message 2 of 22 , May 6, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Jeff,
         
        May I come in here with some kind of observation.
         
        You said:
         
         >>Yes, we can. When the enquiry
        comes from a place of despair,
        degradation, shame and guilt,
        and the hope is for release
        from their grip,>> snip..
         
        Could it also be that this kind of suffering-based enquiry could have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross suffering has worked itself gradually out of the system there remains the pure suffering of duality in its most delicate form yet to be transcended? 
         
        I guess what I am suggesting is that there is the totally untrimmed tree to start with and all that is evident are forms of emotional, psychological and mental disturbances.  These no doubt form the bulk of the conscious experience of separation at that level of disorganization.  However, there comes a time along the path of self-enquiry where these things no longer distract the practitioner so heavily from inner silence and some sense of freedom from conditioning and shadow emotional stuff.  This in itself brings a lightness of being, but there is still the residual state of duality present, which could easily again be drawn into mere reactivity and mental distortion.  Yet, at this stage, one is no longer driven by the gross suffering of personal historical stuff.  What is on the table is just the mere sense of duality.  It seems to me that only when this has been recognized as suffering and ways have been found to transcend this fundamental inclination towards mere separateness, can the freedom of which you may be speaking reveal itself.
         
        Or perhaps we may be talking about different experiences altogether?.  It is really difficult to apprehend the very many manifestations of freedom from where people nowadays speak.  So many claim freedom and enlightement.  I often find it difficult to fully appreciate where they are coming from. In the olden days, and as tradition has it, practioners in the Zen tradition actually often left their teachers, or were sent away to other teachers to have the different levels of their 'enlightenment' verified, disputed, worked on etc. lest the student fools h/herself into truly believing they are fully enlightened while perhaps the finer points might still be missing.  As yet, we have no such kind of 'peer review' in the west relative to our enlightening experiences. So we all seem just have our own relative light to stand or fall by.  This may of course create some serious confusion for many  - and a ready breeding ground for illusion?
         
        Have a good weekend,
        Moller de la Rouviere
         
         
      • Jeff Belyea
        ... have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross suffering has worked
        Message 3 of 22 , May 6, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "de la rouviere"
          <mollerdlr@t...> wrote:
          > Dear Jeff,
          >
          > May I come in here with some kind of observation.
          >
          > You said:
          >
          > >>Yes, we can. When the enquiry
          > comes from a place of despair,
          > degradation, shame and guilt,
          > and the hope is for release
          > from their grip,>> snip..
          >
          > Could it also be that this kind of suffering-based enquiry could
          have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from
          the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross
          suffering has worked itself gradually out of the system there remains
          the pure suffering of duality in its most delicate form yet to be
          transcended?
          >
          > I guess what I am suggesting is that there is the totally untrimmed
          tree to start with and all that is evident are forms of emotional,
          psychological and mental disturbances. These no doubt form the bulk
          of the conscious experience of separation at that level of
          disorganization. However, there comes a time along the path of self-
          enquiry where these things no longer distract the practitioner so
          heavily from inner silence and some sense of freedom from
          conditioning and shadow emotional stuff. This in itself brings a
          lightness of being, but there is still the residual state of duality
          present, which could easily again be drawn into mere reactivity and
          mental distortion. Yet, at this stage, one is no longer driven by
          the gross suffering of personal historical stuff. What is on the
          table is just the mere sense of duality. It seems to me that only
          when this has been recognized as suffering and ways have been found
          to transcend this fundamental inclination towards mere separateness,
          can the freedom of which you may be speaking reveal itself.
          >
          > Or perhaps we may be talking about different experiences
          altogether?. It is really difficult to apprehend the very many
          manifestations of freedom from where people nowadays speak. So many
          claim freedom and enlightement. I often find it difficult to fully
          appreciate where they are coming from. In the olden days, and as
          tradition has it, practioners in the Zen tradition actually often
          left their teachers, or were sent away to other teachers to have the
          different levels of their 'enlightenment' verified, disputed, worked
          on etc. lest the student fools h/herself into truly believing they
          are fully enlightened while perhaps the finer points might still be
          missing. As yet, we have no such kind of 'peer review' in the west
          relative to our enlightening experiences. So we all seem just have
          our own relative light to stand or fall by. This may of course
          create some serious confusion for many - and a ready breeding ground
          for illusion?
          >
          > Have a good weekend,
          > Moller de la Rouviere
          > www.spiritualhumanism.co.za

          Thank you, Moller.

          Of course, we can only
          speak authentically
          from our own direct
          experience. And, yes,
          this is a difficult
          task - to communicate
          our personal experience
          clearly and completely.

          The gradual working out
          of the issues that were
          the root causes of
          suffering, either through
          the grace of time or
          with the help of a
          therapeutic approach
          is distinctly different
          from the experience of
          Enlightened Awakening, a
          "stepping into perfection"
          in which the startling
          realization of "all is well"
          presents itself, as if
          beyond anything the mind
          has previously thought
          or imagined.

          The latter mends the
          illusion of separation
          and sense of duality, and
          leaves a residual sweetness
          as an undercurrent of
          day-to-day consciousness
          (as Jody and Greg have
          noted in recent posts)
          that is above any and all
          circumstances of life
          events.

          So many models attempt
          to distinguish between
          the therapeutic recovery
          and the Enlightened, more
          dramatic resolution of
          suffering. And even these
          have subsets. The savikalpa
          and nirvikalpa, and then
          sahaj samadhi, come to
          mind.

          The easing of suffering
          through time erasure of
          the sting, the temporary
          Enlightenment of savikalpa
          samadhi, and the seemingly
          permanent shift of awareness
          and Awakening to the
          "Ture Self" of nirvikalpa
          samadhi are neat distinctions,
          but as you've written,
          can cause a lot of confusion
          and maybe even delusion.

          Additionally, those who
          feel compelled, or as
          Bruce Morgen writes, are
          "choicelessly obligated"
          to share the good news
          of Enlightenment, seem
          to innocenlty over-promise
          the availability of this
          New Wisdom, Understanding,
          Experiential Knowledge.

          The Big Guys of Gurudom,
          and the relatively unknown
          Awakened Teachers, seem
          to all offer a model or
          point to a path that they
          walked, with the expectation
          that a similar walk will
          produce a similar result.

          As Bruce and Jeff Brooks
          have written; if this
          were so, we would have
          millions instead of
          hundreds of Awakened
          Ones, Buddhas, Christs,
          Krisnas, on earth now.

          As for the much-hunted
          deluded gurus, it seems
          that this is a much-overblown
          hunt. It is unimaginable
          that anyone would step up
          to the role without the
          experiential knowledge -
          for some power trip or
          monetary reward. That
          hunt is left for others.

          Those who fire verbal
          bombast at any talk or
          writing of Enlightenment
          are the more discouraging
          and disparaging game in
          my crosshairs.

          Peace,

          Jeff
        • Jeff Belyea
          ... Hi Jody - Thanks. The dissolving of the idea of me is one of those subtle and difficult to describe aspects of Awakening that has the rational mind hear
          Message 4 of 22 , May 9, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
            <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
            > <jeff@m...> wrote:
            >
            > [snip]
            >
            > > To those, like Jody, for
            > > whom it was more of an
            > > "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
            > > and life goes on, there
            > > are typically no jimmies,
            > > no cherries, but a sweetness
            > > nevertheless. Even Greg
            > > uses the words "sweetness
            > > and light" in his report.
            > >
            > > (Sorry, Michael.)
            > >
            > > Sweet as ever,
            > >
            > > Jeff
            >
            > Actually, the "seeing" of "it" was accompanied
            > by the simultaneous dissolving of the "idea of
            > me" as Ramakrishna terms it. Watching that me
            > dissolve was almost a shock, but it happened so
            > quickly that there wasn't time for a reaction.
            >
            > This isn't to say I don't have a sense of "me,"
            > just that its hold on identity was shattered, and
            > has remained so ever since.
            >
            > I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
            > although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
            > before it all went down.
            >
            > --jody.


            Hi Jody -

            Thanks.

            The dissolving of the "idea
            of me" is one of those subtle
            and difficult to describe
            aspects of Awakening that
            has the rational mind hear
            a metal-pipe clang.

            That shift out of the personal
            sense of "ego" to just "being"
            brings the sweet relief from
            taking anything personally, and
            it not only allows for continuity
            of the fiery asshole persona...
            it transforms one predisposed
            to being a fiery asshole
            into a fearless fiery asshole;
            taming the lions of fear and
            doubt and replacing those with
            a hot and sweet pepper undercurrent.

            Love, as always,

            Jeff
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.