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[Meditation Society of America] Re: TRANSMISSION

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  • jodyrrr
    ... wrote: [snip] ... Actually, the seeing of it was accompanied by the simultaneous dissolving of the idea of me as Ramakrishna terms it.
    Message 1 of 22 , May 5 1:13 PM
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      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
      <jeff@m...> wrote:

      [snip]

      > To those, like Jodi, for
      > whom it was more of an
      > "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
      > and life goes on, there
      > are typically no jimmies,
      > no cherries, but a sweetness
      > nevertheless. Even Greg
      > uses the words "sweetness
      > and light" in his report.
      >
      > (Sorry, Michael.)
      >
      > Sweet as ever,
      >
      > Jeff

      Actually, the "seeing" of "it" was accompanied
      by the simultaneous dissolving of the "idea of
      me" as Ramakrishna terms it. Watching that me
      dissolve was almost a shock, but it happened so
      quickly that there wasn't time for a reaction.

      This isn't to say I don't have a sense of "me,"
      just that its hold on identity was shattered, and
      has remained so ever since.

      I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
      although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
      before it all went down.

      --jody.
    • Greg Goode
      ... ===Yeah, that s just it. Even aging, the deaths of parents, friends, terminal illnesses, my wife going to federal detention for an indeterminate period,
      Message 2 of 22 , May 5 1:40 PM
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
        <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:


        > I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
        > although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
        > before it all went down.

        ===Yeah, that's just it. Even aging, the deaths of parents, friends,
        terminal illnesses, my wife going to federal detention for an
        indeterminate period, not enough cash for her bail (no bail bonds
        accepted for immigration stuff), $1200 phone bills, bleeding
        rollerblading accidents, bike accidents, sprains -- all this isn't
        separate from sweetness, space and light.

        --Greg
      • de la rouviere
        Dear Jeff, May I come in here with some kind of observation. ... comes from a place of despair, degradation, shame and guilt, and the hope is for release from
        Message 3 of 22 , May 6 7:12 AM
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          Dear Jeff,
           
          May I come in here with some kind of observation.
           
          You said:
           
           >>Yes, we can. When the enquiry
          comes from a place of despair,
          degradation, shame and guilt,
          and the hope is for release
          from their grip,>> snip..
           
          Could it also be that this kind of suffering-based enquiry could have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross suffering has worked itself gradually out of the system there remains the pure suffering of duality in its most delicate form yet to be transcended? 
           
          I guess what I am suggesting is that there is the totally untrimmed tree to start with and all that is evident are forms of emotional, psychological and mental disturbances.  These no doubt form the bulk of the conscious experience of separation at that level of disorganization.  However, there comes a time along the path of self-enquiry where these things no longer distract the practitioner so heavily from inner silence and some sense of freedom from conditioning and shadow emotional stuff.  This in itself brings a lightness of being, but there is still the residual state of duality present, which could easily again be drawn into mere reactivity and mental distortion.  Yet, at this stage, one is no longer driven by the gross suffering of personal historical stuff.  What is on the table is just the mere sense of duality.  It seems to me that only when this has been recognized as suffering and ways have been found to transcend this fundamental inclination towards mere separateness, can the freedom of which you may be speaking reveal itself.
           
          Or perhaps we may be talking about different experiences altogether?.  It is really difficult to apprehend the very many manifestations of freedom from where people nowadays speak.  So many claim freedom and enlightement.  I often find it difficult to fully appreciate where they are coming from. In the olden days, and as tradition has it, practioners in the Zen tradition actually often left their teachers, or were sent away to other teachers to have the different levels of their 'enlightenment' verified, disputed, worked on etc. lest the student fools h/herself into truly believing they are fully enlightened while perhaps the finer points might still be missing.  As yet, we have no such kind of 'peer review' in the west relative to our enlightening experiences. So we all seem just have our own relative light to stand or fall by.  This may of course create some serious confusion for many  - and a ready breeding ground for illusion?
           
          Have a good weekend,
          Moller de la Rouviere
           
           
        • Jeff Belyea
          ... have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross suffering has worked
          Message 4 of 22 , May 6 8:11 AM
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "de la rouviere"
            <mollerdlr@t...> wrote:
            > Dear Jeff,
            >
            > May I come in here with some kind of observation.
            >
            > You said:
            >
            > >>Yes, we can. When the enquiry
            > comes from a place of despair,
            > degradation, shame and guilt,
            > and the hope is for release
            > from their grip,>> snip..
            >
            > Could it also be that this kind of suffering-based enquiry could
            have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from
            the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross
            suffering has worked itself gradually out of the system there remains
            the pure suffering of duality in its most delicate form yet to be
            transcended?
            >
            > I guess what I am suggesting is that there is the totally untrimmed
            tree to start with and all that is evident are forms of emotional,
            psychological and mental disturbances. These no doubt form the bulk
            of the conscious experience of separation at that level of
            disorganization. However, there comes a time along the path of self-
            enquiry where these things no longer distract the practitioner so
            heavily from inner silence and some sense of freedom from
            conditioning and shadow emotional stuff. This in itself brings a
            lightness of being, but there is still the residual state of duality
            present, which could easily again be drawn into mere reactivity and
            mental distortion. Yet, at this stage, one is no longer driven by
            the gross suffering of personal historical stuff. What is on the
            table is just the mere sense of duality. It seems to me that only
            when this has been recognized as suffering and ways have been found
            to transcend this fundamental inclination towards mere separateness,
            can the freedom of which you may be speaking reveal itself.
            >
            > Or perhaps we may be talking about different experiences
            altogether?. It is really difficult to apprehend the very many
            manifestations of freedom from where people nowadays speak. So many
            claim freedom and enlightement. I often find it difficult to fully
            appreciate where they are coming from. In the olden days, and as
            tradition has it, practioners in the Zen tradition actually often
            left their teachers, or were sent away to other teachers to have the
            different levels of their 'enlightenment' verified, disputed, worked
            on etc. lest the student fools h/herself into truly believing they
            are fully enlightened while perhaps the finer points might still be
            missing. As yet, we have no such kind of 'peer review' in the west
            relative to our enlightening experiences. So we all seem just have
            our own relative light to stand or fall by. This may of course
            create some serious confusion for many - and a ready breeding ground
            for illusion?
            >
            > Have a good weekend,
            > Moller de la Rouviere
            > www.spiritualhumanism.co.za

            Thank you, Moller.

            Of course, we can only
            speak authentically
            from our own direct
            experience. And, yes,
            this is a difficult
            task - to communicate
            our personal experience
            clearly and completely.

            The gradual working out
            of the issues that were
            the root causes of
            suffering, either through
            the grace of time or
            with the help of a
            therapeutic approach
            is distinctly different
            from the experience of
            Enlightened Awakening, a
            "stepping into perfection"
            in which the startling
            realization of "all is well"
            presents itself, as if
            beyond anything the mind
            has previously thought
            or imagined.

            The latter mends the
            illusion of separation
            and sense of duality, and
            leaves a residual sweetness
            as an undercurrent of
            day-to-day consciousness
            (as Jody and Greg have
            noted in recent posts)
            that is above any and all
            circumstances of life
            events.

            So many models attempt
            to distinguish between
            the therapeutic recovery
            and the Enlightened, more
            dramatic resolution of
            suffering. And even these
            have subsets. The savikalpa
            and nirvikalpa, and then
            sahaj samadhi, come to
            mind.

            The easing of suffering
            through time erasure of
            the sting, the temporary
            Enlightenment of savikalpa
            samadhi, and the seemingly
            permanent shift of awareness
            and Awakening to the
            "Ture Self" of nirvikalpa
            samadhi are neat distinctions,
            but as you've written,
            can cause a lot of confusion
            and maybe even delusion.

            Additionally, those who
            feel compelled, or as
            Bruce Morgen writes, are
            "choicelessly obligated"
            to share the good news
            of Enlightenment, seem
            to innocenlty over-promise
            the availability of this
            New Wisdom, Understanding,
            Experiential Knowledge.

            The Big Guys of Gurudom,
            and the relatively unknown
            Awakened Teachers, seem
            to all offer a model or
            point to a path that they
            walked, with the expectation
            that a similar walk will
            produce a similar result.

            As Bruce and Jeff Brooks
            have written; if this
            were so, we would have
            millions instead of
            hundreds of Awakened
            Ones, Buddhas, Christs,
            Krisnas, on earth now.

            As for the much-hunted
            deluded gurus, it seems
            that this is a much-overblown
            hunt. It is unimaginable
            that anyone would step up
            to the role without the
            experiential knowledge -
            for some power trip or
            monetary reward. That
            hunt is left for others.

            Those who fire verbal
            bombast at any talk or
            writing of Enlightenment
            are the more discouraging
            and disparaging game in
            my crosshairs.

            Peace,

            Jeff
          • Jeff Belyea
            ... Hi Jody - Thanks. The dissolving of the idea of me is one of those subtle and difficult to describe aspects of Awakening that has the rational mind hear
            Message 5 of 22 , May 9 6:50 AM
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              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
              <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
              > <jeff@m...> wrote:
              >
              > [snip]
              >
              > > To those, like Jody, for
              > > whom it was more of an
              > > "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
              > > and life goes on, there
              > > are typically no jimmies,
              > > no cherries, but a sweetness
              > > nevertheless. Even Greg
              > > uses the words "sweetness
              > > and light" in his report.
              > >
              > > (Sorry, Michael.)
              > >
              > > Sweet as ever,
              > >
              > > Jeff
              >
              > Actually, the "seeing" of "it" was accompanied
              > by the simultaneous dissolving of the "idea of
              > me" as Ramakrishna terms it. Watching that me
              > dissolve was almost a shock, but it happened so
              > quickly that there wasn't time for a reaction.
              >
              > This isn't to say I don't have a sense of "me,"
              > just that its hold on identity was shattered, and
              > has remained so ever since.
              >
              > I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
              > although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
              > before it all went down.
              >
              > --jody.


              Hi Jody -

              Thanks.

              The dissolving of the "idea
              of me" is one of those subtle
              and difficult to describe
              aspects of Awakening that
              has the rational mind hear
              a metal-pipe clang.

              That shift out of the personal
              sense of "ego" to just "being"
              brings the sweet relief from
              taking anything personally, and
              it not only allows for continuity
              of the fiery asshole persona...
              it transforms one predisposed
              to being a fiery asshole
              into a fearless fiery asshole;
              taming the lions of fear and
              doubt and replacing those with
              a hot and sweet pepper undercurrent.

              Love, as always,

              Jeff
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