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[Meditation Society of America] Re: TRANSMISSION

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  • Greg Goode
    ... ===These are good points. Sincerely and singlemindedly trying to end one s suffering is not the same as going for the status of having attained a goal.
    Message 1 of 22 , May 5 12:14 PM
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      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
      <jeff@m...> wrote:
      > > Can we be both sincere and
      > > indefatigable in our enquiry
      > > without hope of status and
      > > attainment?
      >
      > Yes, we can. When the enquiry
      > comes from a place of despair,
      > degradation, shame and guilt,
      > and the hope is for release
      > from their grip, neither purity
      > nor status nor attainment are
      > the foci.

      ...

      > Even Greg uses the words "sweetness
      > and light" in his report.

      ===These are good points. Sincerely and singlemindedly trying to end
      one's suffering is not the same as going for the status of having
      attained a goal. When in the middle of great suffering, a person
      would gladly trade all chances of lofty attainment for the relief
      from suffering.

      I remember one AIDS activist mentioning that he visited some AIDS
      patients in the hospital. They said something that really made an
      impression on him. They told him that sure, they remembered the
      feverishly strong sexual compulsion they felt when they had sex all
      those times - unprotected. There's a sort of divine madness that
      takes over, seems like it will protect you. Now, they are
      experiencing the aftermath. They all told the activist that they'd
      gladly give away the sexual experiences they had, plus all hope of
      *ever* having sex again, if they could only be free of the virus now.

      In my case, I was intensely looking into the essence of my nature.
      What made me ME? What makes anyone what they are, and not something
      else? Where is my identity located? How is it carried? How is it
      *my* identity? Although this was not a painful inquiry, it was a
      constant one - yes, and it had a touch of sweet, light fascination.
      I was really in the grips of it. My head was in the tiger's mouth.
      I hadn't heard of any satsangs or spiritual groups doing this kind of
      stuff. There was no association in my mind of a level, status or
      endpoint to be reached. Because I had no acquaintances doing this
      kind of thing, I really didn't have a socially constructed notion of
      a kind of person to compare myself to, or "an after it is over." I
      was doing it in kind of an open and unknowing way.

      --Greg

      P.S. Plus, meditation helped!
    • jodyrrr
      ... wrote: [snip] ... Actually, the seeing of it was accompanied by the simultaneous dissolving of the idea of me as Ramakrishna terms it.
      Message 2 of 22 , May 5 1:13 PM
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
        <jeff@m...> wrote:

        [snip]

        > To those, like Jodi, for
        > whom it was more of an
        > "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
        > and life goes on, there
        > are typically no jimmies,
        > no cherries, but a sweetness
        > nevertheless. Even Greg
        > uses the words "sweetness
        > and light" in his report.
        >
        > (Sorry, Michael.)
        >
        > Sweet as ever,
        >
        > Jeff

        Actually, the "seeing" of "it" was accompanied
        by the simultaneous dissolving of the "idea of
        me" as Ramakrishna terms it. Watching that me
        dissolve was almost a shock, but it happened so
        quickly that there wasn't time for a reaction.

        This isn't to say I don't have a sense of "me,"
        just that its hold on identity was shattered, and
        has remained so ever since.

        I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
        although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
        before it all went down.

        --jody.
      • Greg Goode
        ... ===Yeah, that s just it. Even aging, the deaths of parents, friends, terminal illnesses, my wife going to federal detention for an indeterminate period,
        Message 3 of 22 , May 5 1:40 PM
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
          <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:


          > I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
          > although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
          > before it all went down.

          ===Yeah, that's just it. Even aging, the deaths of parents, friends,
          terminal illnesses, my wife going to federal detention for an
          indeterminate period, not enough cash for her bail (no bail bonds
          accepted for immigration stuff), $1200 phone bills, bleeding
          rollerblading accidents, bike accidents, sprains -- all this isn't
          separate from sweetness, space and light.

          --Greg
        • de la rouviere
          Dear Jeff, May I come in here with some kind of observation. ... comes from a place of despair, degradation, shame and guilt, and the hope is for release from
          Message 4 of 22 , May 6 7:12 AM
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            Dear Jeff,
             
            May I come in here with some kind of observation.
             
            You said:
             
             >>Yes, we can. When the enquiry
            comes from a place of despair,
            degradation, shame and guilt,
            and the hope is for release
            from their grip,>> snip..
             
            Could it also be that this kind of suffering-based enquiry could have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross suffering has worked itself gradually out of the system there remains the pure suffering of duality in its most delicate form yet to be transcended? 
             
            I guess what I am suggesting is that there is the totally untrimmed tree to start with and all that is evident are forms of emotional, psychological and mental disturbances.  These no doubt form the bulk of the conscious experience of separation at that level of disorganization.  However, there comes a time along the path of self-enquiry where these things no longer distract the practitioner so heavily from inner silence and some sense of freedom from conditioning and shadow emotional stuff.  This in itself brings a lightness of being, but there is still the residual state of duality present, which could easily again be drawn into mere reactivity and mental distortion.  Yet, at this stage, one is no longer driven by the gross suffering of personal historical stuff.  What is on the table is just the mere sense of duality.  It seems to me that only when this has been recognized as suffering and ways have been found to transcend this fundamental inclination towards mere separateness, can the freedom of which you may be speaking reveal itself.
             
            Or perhaps we may be talking about different experiences altogether?.  It is really difficult to apprehend the very many manifestations of freedom from where people nowadays speak.  So many claim freedom and enlightement.  I often find it difficult to fully appreciate where they are coming from. In the olden days, and as tradition has it, practioners in the Zen tradition actually often left their teachers, or were sent away to other teachers to have the different levels of their 'enlightenment' verified, disputed, worked on etc. lest the student fools h/herself into truly believing they are fully enlightened while perhaps the finer points might still be missing.  As yet, we have no such kind of 'peer review' in the west relative to our enlightening experiences. So we all seem just have our own relative light to stand or fall by.  This may of course create some serious confusion for many  - and a ready breeding ground for illusion?
             
            Have a good weekend,
            Moller de la Rouviere
             
             
          • Jeff Belyea
            ... have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross suffering has worked
            Message 5 of 22 , May 6 8:11 AM
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              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "de la rouviere"
              <mollerdlr@t...> wrote:
              > Dear Jeff,
              >
              > May I come in here with some kind of observation.
              >
              > You said:
              >
              > >>Yes, we can. When the enquiry
              > comes from a place of despair,
              > degradation, shame and guilt,
              > and the hope is for release
              > from their grip,>> snip..
              >
              > Could it also be that this kind of suffering-based enquiry could
              have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from
              the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross
              suffering has worked itself gradually out of the system there remains
              the pure suffering of duality in its most delicate form yet to be
              transcended?
              >
              > I guess what I am suggesting is that there is the totally untrimmed
              tree to start with and all that is evident are forms of emotional,
              psychological and mental disturbances. These no doubt form the bulk
              of the conscious experience of separation at that level of
              disorganization. However, there comes a time along the path of self-
              enquiry where these things no longer distract the practitioner so
              heavily from inner silence and some sense of freedom from
              conditioning and shadow emotional stuff. This in itself brings a
              lightness of being, but there is still the residual state of duality
              present, which could easily again be drawn into mere reactivity and
              mental distortion. Yet, at this stage, one is no longer driven by
              the gross suffering of personal historical stuff. What is on the
              table is just the mere sense of duality. It seems to me that only
              when this has been recognized as suffering and ways have been found
              to transcend this fundamental inclination towards mere separateness,
              can the freedom of which you may be speaking reveal itself.
              >
              > Or perhaps we may be talking about different experiences
              altogether?. It is really difficult to apprehend the very many
              manifestations of freedom from where people nowadays speak. So many
              claim freedom and enlightement. I often find it difficult to fully
              appreciate where they are coming from. In the olden days, and as
              tradition has it, practioners in the Zen tradition actually often
              left their teachers, or were sent away to other teachers to have the
              different levels of their 'enlightenment' verified, disputed, worked
              on etc. lest the student fools h/herself into truly believing they
              are fully enlightened while perhaps the finer points might still be
              missing. As yet, we have no such kind of 'peer review' in the west
              relative to our enlightening experiences. So we all seem just have
              our own relative light to stand or fall by. This may of course
              create some serious confusion for many - and a ready breeding ground
              for illusion?
              >
              > Have a good weekend,
              > Moller de la Rouviere
              > www.spiritualhumanism.co.za

              Thank you, Moller.

              Of course, we can only
              speak authentically
              from our own direct
              experience. And, yes,
              this is a difficult
              task - to communicate
              our personal experience
              clearly and completely.

              The gradual working out
              of the issues that were
              the root causes of
              suffering, either through
              the grace of time or
              with the help of a
              therapeutic approach
              is distinctly different
              from the experience of
              Enlightened Awakening, a
              "stepping into perfection"
              in which the startling
              realization of "all is well"
              presents itself, as if
              beyond anything the mind
              has previously thought
              or imagined.

              The latter mends the
              illusion of separation
              and sense of duality, and
              leaves a residual sweetness
              as an undercurrent of
              day-to-day consciousness
              (as Jody and Greg have
              noted in recent posts)
              that is above any and all
              circumstances of life
              events.

              So many models attempt
              to distinguish between
              the therapeutic recovery
              and the Enlightened, more
              dramatic resolution of
              suffering. And even these
              have subsets. The savikalpa
              and nirvikalpa, and then
              sahaj samadhi, come to
              mind.

              The easing of suffering
              through time erasure of
              the sting, the temporary
              Enlightenment of savikalpa
              samadhi, and the seemingly
              permanent shift of awareness
              and Awakening to the
              "Ture Self" of nirvikalpa
              samadhi are neat distinctions,
              but as you've written,
              can cause a lot of confusion
              and maybe even delusion.

              Additionally, those who
              feel compelled, or as
              Bruce Morgen writes, are
              "choicelessly obligated"
              to share the good news
              of Enlightenment, seem
              to innocenlty over-promise
              the availability of this
              New Wisdom, Understanding,
              Experiential Knowledge.

              The Big Guys of Gurudom,
              and the relatively unknown
              Awakened Teachers, seem
              to all offer a model or
              point to a path that they
              walked, with the expectation
              that a similar walk will
              produce a similar result.

              As Bruce and Jeff Brooks
              have written; if this
              were so, we would have
              millions instead of
              hundreds of Awakened
              Ones, Buddhas, Christs,
              Krisnas, on earth now.

              As for the much-hunted
              deluded gurus, it seems
              that this is a much-overblown
              hunt. It is unimaginable
              that anyone would step up
              to the role without the
              experiential knowledge -
              for some power trip or
              monetary reward. That
              hunt is left for others.

              Those who fire verbal
              bombast at any talk or
              writing of Enlightenment
              are the more discouraging
              and disparaging game in
              my crosshairs.

              Peace,

              Jeff
            • Jeff Belyea
              ... Hi Jody - Thanks. The dissolving of the idea of me is one of those subtle and difficult to describe aspects of Awakening that has the rational mind hear
              Message 6 of 22 , May 9 6:50 AM
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                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                >
                > [snip]
                >
                > > To those, like Jody, for
                > > whom it was more of an
                > > "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
                > > and life goes on, there
                > > are typically no jimmies,
                > > no cherries, but a sweetness
                > > nevertheless. Even Greg
                > > uses the words "sweetness
                > > and light" in his report.
                > >
                > > (Sorry, Michael.)
                > >
                > > Sweet as ever,
                > >
                > > Jeff
                >
                > Actually, the "seeing" of "it" was accompanied
                > by the simultaneous dissolving of the "idea of
                > me" as Ramakrishna terms it. Watching that me
                > dissolve was almost a shock, but it happened so
                > quickly that there wasn't time for a reaction.
                >
                > This isn't to say I don't have a sense of "me,"
                > just that its hold on identity was shattered, and
                > has remained so ever since.
                >
                > I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
                > although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
                > before it all went down.
                >
                > --jody.


                Hi Jody -

                Thanks.

                The dissolving of the "idea
                of me" is one of those subtle
                and difficult to describe
                aspects of Awakening that
                has the rational mind hear
                a metal-pipe clang.

                That shift out of the personal
                sense of "ego" to just "being"
                brings the sweet relief from
                taking anything personally, and
                it not only allows for continuity
                of the fiery asshole persona...
                it transforms one predisposed
                to being a fiery asshole
                into a fearless fiery asshole;
                taming the lions of fear and
                doubt and replacing those with
                a hot and sweet pepper undercurrent.

                Love, as always,

                Jeff
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