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[Meditation Society of America] Re: TRANSMISSION

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  • jodyrrr
    ... But the obviousness of duality does not include the reality of the magical nonsense which exists in spiritual culture, the nonsense you are taking for
    Message 1 of 22 , May 4 8:57 AM
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      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, jasonjamesmorgan
      <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      >
      > >
      > > The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
      > > physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
      > >
      > > Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
      > > despite what superstitious folk want to believe
      > > about their gurus.
      > >
      > > The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
      > > a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
      > >
      > > What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
      > > the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
      > > the Self in their awareness. It's not something
      > > you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
      > > suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
      > > can make the connection for you, but you've got to
      > > see it alone, completely outside any mythological
      > > beliefs anyone has about gurus.
      >
      > Well, well,
      >
      > Your a bit father off than I originally thought. I see you are still
      > doing your sadhana to the end of savikalpa samadhi. For if you were
      > realized, you would know that duality is obvious and apparent and
      > GOD. You have not realized, as you denie one side of the coin.

      But the obviousness of duality does not include the reality
      of the magical nonsense which exists in spiritual culture,
      the nonsense you are taking for fact. The nonsense which
      chokes the life out of realization like algae in a pond.

      > A person can send prana to wherever, whenever they choose.

      Sure, as a intellectual conceit or in a dream.

      > So sad, so close, but to stubborn in his sadhana to drop the concept
      > of no concepts.

      The same is said of you, unable to see the truth that sits
      on the end of your nose.

      > I grow bored of this. Maybe I will be back next year. My compassion
      > might bring forth a thought or two for you. Ta Ta.
      >
      > Namaste
      > Om Namah Shivaya

      How generous. Don't let the door hit you in
      the ass.
    • Jeff Belyea
      ... Yes, we can. When the enquiry comes from a place of despair, degradation, shame and guilt, and the hope is for release from their grip, neither purity nor
      Message 2 of 22 , May 5 11:55 AM
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        > Can we be both sincere and
        > indefatigable in our enquiry
        > without hope of status and
        > attainment?

        Yes, we can. When the enquiry
        comes from a place of despair,
        degradation, shame and guilt,
        and the hope is for release
        from their grip, neither purity
        nor status nor attainment are
        the foci - unless you are
        going to quibble that attainment
        of peace of mind is to be
        counted among "attainments".
        It is gift. The fact that
        IT grants purity does not
        count, either. The POM and
        purity are totally Jackerjacks'
        surprises. (Just a little
        anticipatory fencing
        before the touche).

        The awakening in this context
        is a startling and unexpected
        helping of jimmies, a cherry
        on top, a...lot of sweetness,
        and frequently gives birth to
        a Bhakti Yogi - a gratitude
        attitude for the double scoop.

        The fact that reports of
        this unique solution are
        often couched in spiritual
        terms may be the result of
        a family tradition or a
        cultural prime coat.

        Some will hear the reports
        of spiritual enlightenment
        as ego aggrandizement and
        attempts to attain status
        or imply some attainment
        of a lofty estate. But the
        Bhakti Yogi has no such
        interests.

        To those, like Jodi, for
        whom it was more of an
        "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
        and life goes on, there
        are typically no jimmies,
        no cherries, but a sweetness
        nevertheless. Even Greg
        uses the words "sweetness
        and light" in his report.

        (Sorry, Michael.)

        Sweet as ever,

        Jeff
      • Greg Goode
        ... ===These are good points. Sincerely and singlemindedly trying to end one s suffering is not the same as going for the status of having attained a goal.
        Message 3 of 22 , May 5 12:14 PM
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
          <jeff@m...> wrote:
          > > Can we be both sincere and
          > > indefatigable in our enquiry
          > > without hope of status and
          > > attainment?
          >
          > Yes, we can. When the enquiry
          > comes from a place of despair,
          > degradation, shame and guilt,
          > and the hope is for release
          > from their grip, neither purity
          > nor status nor attainment are
          > the foci.

          ...

          > Even Greg uses the words "sweetness
          > and light" in his report.

          ===These are good points. Sincerely and singlemindedly trying to end
          one's suffering is not the same as going for the status of having
          attained a goal. When in the middle of great suffering, a person
          would gladly trade all chances of lofty attainment for the relief
          from suffering.

          I remember one AIDS activist mentioning that he visited some AIDS
          patients in the hospital. They said something that really made an
          impression on him. They told him that sure, they remembered the
          feverishly strong sexual compulsion they felt when they had sex all
          those times - unprotected. There's a sort of divine madness that
          takes over, seems like it will protect you. Now, they are
          experiencing the aftermath. They all told the activist that they'd
          gladly give away the sexual experiences they had, plus all hope of
          *ever* having sex again, if they could only be free of the virus now.

          In my case, I was intensely looking into the essence of my nature.
          What made me ME? What makes anyone what they are, and not something
          else? Where is my identity located? How is it carried? How is it
          *my* identity? Although this was not a painful inquiry, it was a
          constant one - yes, and it had a touch of sweet, light fascination.
          I was really in the grips of it. My head was in the tiger's mouth.
          I hadn't heard of any satsangs or spiritual groups doing this kind of
          stuff. There was no association in my mind of a level, status or
          endpoint to be reached. Because I had no acquaintances doing this
          kind of thing, I really didn't have a socially constructed notion of
          a kind of person to compare myself to, or "an after it is over." I
          was doing it in kind of an open and unknowing way.

          --Greg

          P.S. Plus, meditation helped!
        • jodyrrr
          ... wrote: [snip] ... Actually, the seeing of it was accompanied by the simultaneous dissolving of the idea of me as Ramakrishna terms it.
          Message 4 of 22 , May 5 1:13 PM
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
            <jeff@m...> wrote:

            [snip]

            > To those, like Jodi, for
            > whom it was more of an
            > "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
            > and life goes on, there
            > are typically no jimmies,
            > no cherries, but a sweetness
            > nevertheless. Even Greg
            > uses the words "sweetness
            > and light" in his report.
            >
            > (Sorry, Michael.)
            >
            > Sweet as ever,
            >
            > Jeff

            Actually, the "seeing" of "it" was accompanied
            by the simultaneous dissolving of the "idea of
            me" as Ramakrishna terms it. Watching that me
            dissolve was almost a shock, but it happened so
            quickly that there wasn't time for a reaction.

            This isn't to say I don't have a sense of "me,"
            just that its hold on identity was shattered, and
            has remained so ever since.

            I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
            although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
            before it all went down.

            --jody.
          • Greg Goode
            ... ===Yeah, that s just it. Even aging, the deaths of parents, friends, terminal illnesses, my wife going to federal detention for an indeterminate period,
            Message 5 of 22 , May 5 1:40 PM
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              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
              <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:


              > I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
              > although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
              > before it all went down.

              ===Yeah, that's just it. Even aging, the deaths of parents, friends,
              terminal illnesses, my wife going to federal detention for an
              indeterminate period, not enough cash for her bail (no bail bonds
              accepted for immigration stuff), $1200 phone bills, bleeding
              rollerblading accidents, bike accidents, sprains -- all this isn't
              separate from sweetness, space and light.

              --Greg
            • de la rouviere
              Dear Jeff, May I come in here with some kind of observation. ... comes from a place of despair, degradation, shame and guilt, and the hope is for release from
              Message 6 of 22 , May 6 7:12 AM
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                Dear Jeff,
                 
                May I come in here with some kind of observation.
                 
                You said:
                 
                 >>Yes, we can. When the enquiry
                comes from a place of despair,
                degradation, shame and guilt,
                and the hope is for release
                from their grip,>> snip..
                 
                Could it also be that this kind of suffering-based enquiry could have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross suffering has worked itself gradually out of the system there remains the pure suffering of duality in its most delicate form yet to be transcended? 
                 
                I guess what I am suggesting is that there is the totally untrimmed tree to start with and all that is evident are forms of emotional, psychological and mental disturbances.  These no doubt form the bulk of the conscious experience of separation at that level of disorganization.  However, there comes a time along the path of self-enquiry where these things no longer distract the practitioner so heavily from inner silence and some sense of freedom from conditioning and shadow emotional stuff.  This in itself brings a lightness of being, but there is still the residual state of duality present, which could easily again be drawn into mere reactivity and mental distortion.  Yet, at this stage, one is no longer driven by the gross suffering of personal historical stuff.  What is on the table is just the mere sense of duality.  It seems to me that only when this has been recognized as suffering and ways have been found to transcend this fundamental inclination towards mere separateness, can the freedom of which you may be speaking reveal itself.
                 
                Or perhaps we may be talking about different experiences altogether?.  It is really difficult to apprehend the very many manifestations of freedom from where people nowadays speak.  So many claim freedom and enlightement.  I often find it difficult to fully appreciate where they are coming from. In the olden days, and as tradition has it, practioners in the Zen tradition actually often left their teachers, or were sent away to other teachers to have the different levels of their 'enlightenment' verified, disputed, worked on etc. lest the student fools h/herself into truly believing they are fully enlightened while perhaps the finer points might still be missing.  As yet, we have no such kind of 'peer review' in the west relative to our enlightening experiences. So we all seem just have our own relative light to stand or fall by.  This may of course create some serious confusion for many  - and a ready breeding ground for illusion?
                 
                Have a good weekend,
                Moller de la Rouviere
                 
                 
              • Jeff Belyea
                ... have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross suffering has worked
                Message 7 of 22 , May 6 8:11 AM
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                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "de la rouviere"
                  <mollerdlr@t...> wrote:
                  > Dear Jeff,
                  >
                  > May I come in here with some kind of observation.
                  >
                  > You said:
                  >
                  > >>Yes, we can. When the enquiry
                  > comes from a place of despair,
                  > degradation, shame and guilt,
                  > and the hope is for release
                  > from their grip,>> snip..
                  >
                  > Could it also be that this kind of suffering-based enquiry could
                  have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from
                  the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross
                  suffering has worked itself gradually out of the system there remains
                  the pure suffering of duality in its most delicate form yet to be
                  transcended?
                  >
                  > I guess what I am suggesting is that there is the totally untrimmed
                  tree to start with and all that is evident are forms of emotional,
                  psychological and mental disturbances. These no doubt form the bulk
                  of the conscious experience of separation at that level of
                  disorganization. However, there comes a time along the path of self-
                  enquiry where these things no longer distract the practitioner so
                  heavily from inner silence and some sense of freedom from
                  conditioning and shadow emotional stuff. This in itself brings a
                  lightness of being, but there is still the residual state of duality
                  present, which could easily again be drawn into mere reactivity and
                  mental distortion. Yet, at this stage, one is no longer driven by
                  the gross suffering of personal historical stuff. What is on the
                  table is just the mere sense of duality. It seems to me that only
                  when this has been recognized as suffering and ways have been found
                  to transcend this fundamental inclination towards mere separateness,
                  can the freedom of which you may be speaking reveal itself.
                  >
                  > Or perhaps we may be talking about different experiences
                  altogether?. It is really difficult to apprehend the very many
                  manifestations of freedom from where people nowadays speak. So many
                  claim freedom and enlightement. I often find it difficult to fully
                  appreciate where they are coming from. In the olden days, and as
                  tradition has it, practioners in the Zen tradition actually often
                  left their teachers, or were sent away to other teachers to have the
                  different levels of their 'enlightenment' verified, disputed, worked
                  on etc. lest the student fools h/herself into truly believing they
                  are fully enlightened while perhaps the finer points might still be
                  missing. As yet, we have no such kind of 'peer review' in the west
                  relative to our enlightening experiences. So we all seem just have
                  our own relative light to stand or fall by. This may of course
                  create some serious confusion for many - and a ready breeding ground
                  for illusion?
                  >
                  > Have a good weekend,
                  > Moller de la Rouviere
                  > www.spiritualhumanism.co.za

                  Thank you, Moller.

                  Of course, we can only
                  speak authentically
                  from our own direct
                  experience. And, yes,
                  this is a difficult
                  task - to communicate
                  our personal experience
                  clearly and completely.

                  The gradual working out
                  of the issues that were
                  the root causes of
                  suffering, either through
                  the grace of time or
                  with the help of a
                  therapeutic approach
                  is distinctly different
                  from the experience of
                  Enlightened Awakening, a
                  "stepping into perfection"
                  in which the startling
                  realization of "all is well"
                  presents itself, as if
                  beyond anything the mind
                  has previously thought
                  or imagined.

                  The latter mends the
                  illusion of separation
                  and sense of duality, and
                  leaves a residual sweetness
                  as an undercurrent of
                  day-to-day consciousness
                  (as Jody and Greg have
                  noted in recent posts)
                  that is above any and all
                  circumstances of life
                  events.

                  So many models attempt
                  to distinguish between
                  the therapeutic recovery
                  and the Enlightened, more
                  dramatic resolution of
                  suffering. And even these
                  have subsets. The savikalpa
                  and nirvikalpa, and then
                  sahaj samadhi, come to
                  mind.

                  The easing of suffering
                  through time erasure of
                  the sting, the temporary
                  Enlightenment of savikalpa
                  samadhi, and the seemingly
                  permanent shift of awareness
                  and Awakening to the
                  "Ture Self" of nirvikalpa
                  samadhi are neat distinctions,
                  but as you've written,
                  can cause a lot of confusion
                  and maybe even delusion.

                  Additionally, those who
                  feel compelled, or as
                  Bruce Morgen writes, are
                  "choicelessly obligated"
                  to share the good news
                  of Enlightenment, seem
                  to innocenlty over-promise
                  the availability of this
                  New Wisdom, Understanding,
                  Experiential Knowledge.

                  The Big Guys of Gurudom,
                  and the relatively unknown
                  Awakened Teachers, seem
                  to all offer a model or
                  point to a path that they
                  walked, with the expectation
                  that a similar walk will
                  produce a similar result.

                  As Bruce and Jeff Brooks
                  have written; if this
                  were so, we would have
                  millions instead of
                  hundreds of Awakened
                  Ones, Buddhas, Christs,
                  Krisnas, on earth now.

                  As for the much-hunted
                  deluded gurus, it seems
                  that this is a much-overblown
                  hunt. It is unimaginable
                  that anyone would step up
                  to the role without the
                  experiential knowledge -
                  for some power trip or
                  monetary reward. That
                  hunt is left for others.

                  Those who fire verbal
                  bombast at any talk or
                  writing of Enlightenment
                  are the more discouraging
                  and disparaging game in
                  my crosshairs.

                  Peace,

                  Jeff
                • Jeff Belyea
                  ... Hi Jody - Thanks. The dissolving of the idea of me is one of those subtle and difficult to describe aspects of Awakening that has the rational mind hear
                  Message 8 of 22 , May 9 6:50 AM
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                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                    <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                    > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                    > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                    >
                    > [snip]
                    >
                    > > To those, like Jody, for
                    > > whom it was more of an
                    > > "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
                    > > and life goes on, there
                    > > are typically no jimmies,
                    > > no cherries, but a sweetness
                    > > nevertheless. Even Greg
                    > > uses the words "sweetness
                    > > and light" in his report.
                    > >
                    > > (Sorry, Michael.)
                    > >
                    > > Sweet as ever,
                    > >
                    > > Jeff
                    >
                    > Actually, the "seeing" of "it" was accompanied
                    > by the simultaneous dissolving of the "idea of
                    > me" as Ramakrishna terms it. Watching that me
                    > dissolve was almost a shock, but it happened so
                    > quickly that there wasn't time for a reaction.
                    >
                    > This isn't to say I don't have a sense of "me,"
                    > just that its hold on identity was shattered, and
                    > has remained so ever since.
                    >
                    > I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
                    > although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
                    > before it all went down.
                    >
                    > --jody.


                    Hi Jody -

                    Thanks.

                    The dissolving of the "idea
                    of me" is one of those subtle
                    and difficult to describe
                    aspects of Awakening that
                    has the rational mind hear
                    a metal-pipe clang.

                    That shift out of the personal
                    sense of "ego" to just "being"
                    brings the sweet relief from
                    taking anything personally, and
                    it not only allows for continuity
                    of the fiery asshole persona...
                    it transforms one predisposed
                    to being a fiery asshole
                    into a fearless fiery asshole;
                    taming the lions of fear and
                    doubt and replacing those with
                    a hot and sweet pepper undercurrent.

                    Love, as always,

                    Jeff
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