Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: TRANSMISSION

Expand Messages
  • Bruce Morgen
    ... I could, but with all due respect, I ll decline that request at his time. ... An absurd contention imo, especially given that there is no consensus on what
    Message 1 of 22 , May 4, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      Reynold Wingate wrote:

      >Can you please rephrase the last two paragraphs?
      >
      I could, but with all due
      respect, I'll decline that
      request at his time.

      >I
      >have read somewhere that when high-sounding words are
      >abundant in writing, that's a sign the writer is not
      >very sure of what he is talking about.
      >
      An absurd contention imo,
      especially given that
      there is no consensus on
      what "high-sounding"
      means.

      >Good writing on
      >spirituality should be simple and easy to understand.
      >
      >
      Well, that certainly puts
      a good deal of what the
      ancients wrote out of the
      running, doesn't it?

      >I am lost in the last two paragraphs you wrote. Sorry!
      >
      >
      Me too -- but there it is.
      Are you sure you're not
      being a bit lazy in your
      approach? I can see only
      one or two words in those
      paragraphs that are all
      that uncommon, and the
      sentences parse pretty
      easily. The gists of both
      are quite simple and I'd be
      glad to discuss whatever
      specifics are eluding you.

      Thank you for your interest!

      >Reynold
      >--- Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
      >
      >---------------------------------
      >Reynold Wingate wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >>Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who
      >>
      >>
      >wanted
      >
      >
      >>to become disciples.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >Well, he tried to do it --
      >unfortunately, after he
      >died he became the nexus
      >of YAPBC (Yet Another
      >Posthumous Bhakti Cult).
      >
      >
      >
      >>He believed the spiritual path o
      >>each individual is different.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >That's a fact, no belief
      >is required.
      >
      >
      >
      >>A guru can only give
      >>general tips to grow spiritually based on his own
      >>personal experience.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >Yes, just as pointing at
      >the moon isn't that same
      >as being able to grab it
      >and hand it over. ;-)
      >
      >
      >
      >>It may not necessarily work for
      >>his disciples.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >Clearly, otherwise such
      >"disciples" would themselves
      >uniformly be realized.
      >There's obviously no
      >universal recipe for that.
      >
      >
      >
      >>I believe a guru is not an absolute necessity for
      >>spiritual growth. If you have the desire deep in you,
      >>you will stumble into the truth some day.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >As Jodyji himself has put it,
      >the only actual prerequisite
      >is sincerity. This brings
      >energy and determination --
      >but also an awareness that
      >"the desire deep within you"
      >may in fact be nothing more
      >or other than garden variety
      >ambition, abeit clothed in
      >"spear-chill" raiment!
      >
      >Can we be both sincere and
      >indefatigable in our enquiry
      >without hope of status and
      >attainment? Isn't that the
      >subtly elusive "purity" that
      >is so often spoken of among
      >seekers, the surrendered
      >attitude expressed by "Not
      >my will, but thine" and the
      >very essence of both honest
      >enquiry and authentic
      >meditation?
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >>--- jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
      >>
      >>---------------------------------
      >>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
      >>jasonjamesmorgan
      >><no_reply@y...> wrote:
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>>Hello, hello,
      >>>
      >>>Put two glasses of water side by side, and the
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>temperatures even
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>>out. This is called resonance. If you want to
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>defute transmition,
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>>go to the local university, and prove the world
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>wrong.
      >>
      >>The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
      >>physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
      >>
      >>Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
      >>despite what superstitious folk want to believe
      >>about their gurus.
      >>
      >>The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
      >>a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
      >>
      >>What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
      >>the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
      >>the Self in their awareness. It's not something
      >>you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
      >>suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
      >>can make the connection for you, but you've got to
      >>see it alone, completely outside any mythological
      >>beliefs anyone has about gurus.
      >>
      >>
      >>
    • jodyrrr
      ... But the obviousness of duality does not include the reality of the magical nonsense which exists in spiritual culture, the nonsense you are taking for
      Message 2 of 22 , May 4, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, jasonjamesmorgan
        <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        >
        > >
        > > The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
        > > physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
        > >
        > > Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
        > > despite what superstitious folk want to believe
        > > about their gurus.
        > >
        > > The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
        > > a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
        > >
        > > What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
        > > the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
        > > the Self in their awareness. It's not something
        > > you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
        > > suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
        > > can make the connection for you, but you've got to
        > > see it alone, completely outside any mythological
        > > beliefs anyone has about gurus.
        >
        > Well, well,
        >
        > Your a bit father off than I originally thought. I see you are still
        > doing your sadhana to the end of savikalpa samadhi. For if you were
        > realized, you would know that duality is obvious and apparent and
        > GOD. You have not realized, as you denie one side of the coin.

        But the obviousness of duality does not include the reality
        of the magical nonsense which exists in spiritual culture,
        the nonsense you are taking for fact. The nonsense which
        chokes the life out of realization like algae in a pond.

        > A person can send prana to wherever, whenever they choose.

        Sure, as a intellectual conceit or in a dream.

        > So sad, so close, but to stubborn in his sadhana to drop the concept
        > of no concepts.

        The same is said of you, unable to see the truth that sits
        on the end of your nose.

        > I grow bored of this. Maybe I will be back next year. My compassion
        > might bring forth a thought or two for you. Ta Ta.
        >
        > Namaste
        > Om Namah Shivaya

        How generous. Don't let the door hit you in
        the ass.
      • Jeff Belyea
        ... Yes, we can. When the enquiry comes from a place of despair, degradation, shame and guilt, and the hope is for release from their grip, neither purity nor
        Message 3 of 22 , May 5, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          > Can we be both sincere and
          > indefatigable in our enquiry
          > without hope of status and
          > attainment?

          Yes, we can. When the enquiry
          comes from a place of despair,
          degradation, shame and guilt,
          and the hope is for release
          from their grip, neither purity
          nor status nor attainment are
          the foci - unless you are
          going to quibble that attainment
          of peace of mind is to be
          counted among "attainments".
          It is gift. The fact that
          IT grants purity does not
          count, either. The POM and
          purity are totally Jackerjacks'
          surprises. (Just a little
          anticipatory fencing
          before the touche).

          The awakening in this context
          is a startling and unexpected
          helping of jimmies, a cherry
          on top, a...lot of sweetness,
          and frequently gives birth to
          a Bhakti Yogi - a gratitude
          attitude for the double scoop.

          The fact that reports of
          this unique solution are
          often couched in spiritual
          terms may be the result of
          a family tradition or a
          cultural prime coat.

          Some will hear the reports
          of spiritual enlightenment
          as ego aggrandizement and
          attempts to attain status
          or imply some attainment
          of a lofty estate. But the
          Bhakti Yogi has no such
          interests.

          To those, like Jodi, for
          whom it was more of an
          "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
          and life goes on, there
          are typically no jimmies,
          no cherries, but a sweetness
          nevertheless. Even Greg
          uses the words "sweetness
          and light" in his report.

          (Sorry, Michael.)

          Sweet as ever,

          Jeff
        • Greg Goode
          ... ===These are good points. Sincerely and singlemindedly trying to end one s suffering is not the same as going for the status of having attained a goal.
          Message 4 of 22 , May 5, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
            <jeff@m...> wrote:
            > > Can we be both sincere and
            > > indefatigable in our enquiry
            > > without hope of status and
            > > attainment?
            >
            > Yes, we can. When the enquiry
            > comes from a place of despair,
            > degradation, shame and guilt,
            > and the hope is for release
            > from their grip, neither purity
            > nor status nor attainment are
            > the foci.

            ...

            > Even Greg uses the words "sweetness
            > and light" in his report.

            ===These are good points. Sincerely and singlemindedly trying to end
            one's suffering is not the same as going for the status of having
            attained a goal. When in the middle of great suffering, a person
            would gladly trade all chances of lofty attainment for the relief
            from suffering.

            I remember one AIDS activist mentioning that he visited some AIDS
            patients in the hospital. They said something that really made an
            impression on him. They told him that sure, they remembered the
            feverishly strong sexual compulsion they felt when they had sex all
            those times - unprotected. There's a sort of divine madness that
            takes over, seems like it will protect you. Now, they are
            experiencing the aftermath. They all told the activist that they'd
            gladly give away the sexual experiences they had, plus all hope of
            *ever* having sex again, if they could only be free of the virus now.

            In my case, I was intensely looking into the essence of my nature.
            What made me ME? What makes anyone what they are, and not something
            else? Where is my identity located? How is it carried? How is it
            *my* identity? Although this was not a painful inquiry, it was a
            constant one - yes, and it had a touch of sweet, light fascination.
            I was really in the grips of it. My head was in the tiger's mouth.
            I hadn't heard of any satsangs or spiritual groups doing this kind of
            stuff. There was no association in my mind of a level, status or
            endpoint to be reached. Because I had no acquaintances doing this
            kind of thing, I really didn't have a socially constructed notion of
            a kind of person to compare myself to, or "an after it is over." I
            was doing it in kind of an open and unknowing way.

            --Greg

            P.S. Plus, meditation helped!
          • jodyrrr
            ... wrote: [snip] ... Actually, the seeing of it was accompanied by the simultaneous dissolving of the idea of me as Ramakrishna terms it.
            Message 5 of 22 , May 5, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
              <jeff@m...> wrote:

              [snip]

              > To those, like Jodi, for
              > whom it was more of an
              > "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
              > and life goes on, there
              > are typically no jimmies,
              > no cherries, but a sweetness
              > nevertheless. Even Greg
              > uses the words "sweetness
              > and light" in his report.
              >
              > (Sorry, Michael.)
              >
              > Sweet as ever,
              >
              > Jeff

              Actually, the "seeing" of "it" was accompanied
              by the simultaneous dissolving of the "idea of
              me" as Ramakrishna terms it. Watching that me
              dissolve was almost a shock, but it happened so
              quickly that there wasn't time for a reaction.

              This isn't to say I don't have a sense of "me,"
              just that its hold on identity was shattered, and
              has remained so ever since.

              I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
              although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
              before it all went down.

              --jody.
            • Greg Goode
              ... ===Yeah, that s just it. Even aging, the deaths of parents, friends, terminal illnesses, my wife going to federal detention for an indeterminate period,
              Message 6 of 22 , May 5, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:


                > I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
                > although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
                > before it all went down.

                ===Yeah, that's just it. Even aging, the deaths of parents, friends,
                terminal illnesses, my wife going to federal detention for an
                indeterminate period, not enough cash for her bail (no bail bonds
                accepted for immigration stuff), $1200 phone bills, bleeding
                rollerblading accidents, bike accidents, sprains -- all this isn't
                separate from sweetness, space and light.

                --Greg
              • de la rouviere
                Dear Jeff, May I come in here with some kind of observation. ... comes from a place of despair, degradation, shame and guilt, and the hope is for release from
                Message 7 of 22 , May 6, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear Jeff,
                   
                  May I come in here with some kind of observation.
                   
                  You said:
                   
                   >>Yes, we can. When the enquiry
                  comes from a place of despair,
                  degradation, shame and guilt,
                  and the hope is for release
                  from their grip,>> snip..
                   
                  Could it also be that this kind of suffering-based enquiry could have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross suffering has worked itself gradually out of the system there remains the pure suffering of duality in its most delicate form yet to be transcended? 
                   
                  I guess what I am suggesting is that there is the totally untrimmed tree to start with and all that is evident are forms of emotional, psychological and mental disturbances.  These no doubt form the bulk of the conscious experience of separation at that level of disorganization.  However, there comes a time along the path of self-enquiry where these things no longer distract the practitioner so heavily from inner silence and some sense of freedom from conditioning and shadow emotional stuff.  This in itself brings a lightness of being, but there is still the residual state of duality present, which could easily again be drawn into mere reactivity and mental distortion.  Yet, at this stage, one is no longer driven by the gross suffering of personal historical stuff.  What is on the table is just the mere sense of duality.  It seems to me that only when this has been recognized as suffering and ways have been found to transcend this fundamental inclination towards mere separateness, can the freedom of which you may be speaking reveal itself.
                   
                  Or perhaps we may be talking about different experiences altogether?.  It is really difficult to apprehend the very many manifestations of freedom from where people nowadays speak.  So many claim freedom and enlightement.  I often find it difficult to fully appreciate where they are coming from. In the olden days, and as tradition has it, practioners in the Zen tradition actually often left their teachers, or were sent away to other teachers to have the different levels of their 'enlightenment' verified, disputed, worked on etc. lest the student fools h/herself into truly believing they are fully enlightened while perhaps the finer points might still be missing.  As yet, we have no such kind of 'peer review' in the west relative to our enlightening experiences. So we all seem just have our own relative light to stand or fall by.  This may of course create some serious confusion for many  - and a ready breeding ground for illusion?
                   
                  Have a good weekend,
                  Moller de la Rouviere
                   
                   
                • Jeff Belyea
                  ... have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross suffering has worked
                  Message 8 of 22 , May 6, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "de la rouviere"
                    <mollerdlr@t...> wrote:
                    > Dear Jeff,
                    >
                    > May I come in here with some kind of observation.
                    >
                    > You said:
                    >
                    > >>Yes, we can. When the enquiry
                    > comes from a place of despair,
                    > degradation, shame and guilt,
                    > and the hope is for release
                    > from their grip,>> snip..
                    >
                    > Could it also be that this kind of suffering-based enquiry could
                    have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from
                    the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross
                    suffering has worked itself gradually out of the system there remains
                    the pure suffering of duality in its most delicate form yet to be
                    transcended?
                    >
                    > I guess what I am suggesting is that there is the totally untrimmed
                    tree to start with and all that is evident are forms of emotional,
                    psychological and mental disturbances. These no doubt form the bulk
                    of the conscious experience of separation at that level of
                    disorganization. However, there comes a time along the path of self-
                    enquiry where these things no longer distract the practitioner so
                    heavily from inner silence and some sense of freedom from
                    conditioning and shadow emotional stuff. This in itself brings a
                    lightness of being, but there is still the residual state of duality
                    present, which could easily again be drawn into mere reactivity and
                    mental distortion. Yet, at this stage, one is no longer driven by
                    the gross suffering of personal historical stuff. What is on the
                    table is just the mere sense of duality. It seems to me that only
                    when this has been recognized as suffering and ways have been found
                    to transcend this fundamental inclination towards mere separateness,
                    can the freedom of which you may be speaking reveal itself.
                    >
                    > Or perhaps we may be talking about different experiences
                    altogether?. It is really difficult to apprehend the very many
                    manifestations of freedom from where people nowadays speak. So many
                    claim freedom and enlightement. I often find it difficult to fully
                    appreciate where they are coming from. In the olden days, and as
                    tradition has it, practioners in the Zen tradition actually often
                    left their teachers, or were sent away to other teachers to have the
                    different levels of their 'enlightenment' verified, disputed, worked
                    on etc. lest the student fools h/herself into truly believing they
                    are fully enlightened while perhaps the finer points might still be
                    missing. As yet, we have no such kind of 'peer review' in the west
                    relative to our enlightening experiences. So we all seem just have
                    our own relative light to stand or fall by. This may of course
                    create some serious confusion for many - and a ready breeding ground
                    for illusion?
                    >
                    > Have a good weekend,
                    > Moller de la Rouviere
                    > www.spiritualhumanism.co.za

                    Thank you, Moller.

                    Of course, we can only
                    speak authentically
                    from our own direct
                    experience. And, yes,
                    this is a difficult
                    task - to communicate
                    our personal experience
                    clearly and completely.

                    The gradual working out
                    of the issues that were
                    the root causes of
                    suffering, either through
                    the grace of time or
                    with the help of a
                    therapeutic approach
                    is distinctly different
                    from the experience of
                    Enlightened Awakening, a
                    "stepping into perfection"
                    in which the startling
                    realization of "all is well"
                    presents itself, as if
                    beyond anything the mind
                    has previously thought
                    or imagined.

                    The latter mends the
                    illusion of separation
                    and sense of duality, and
                    leaves a residual sweetness
                    as an undercurrent of
                    day-to-day consciousness
                    (as Jody and Greg have
                    noted in recent posts)
                    that is above any and all
                    circumstances of life
                    events.

                    So many models attempt
                    to distinguish between
                    the therapeutic recovery
                    and the Enlightened, more
                    dramatic resolution of
                    suffering. And even these
                    have subsets. The savikalpa
                    and nirvikalpa, and then
                    sahaj samadhi, come to
                    mind.

                    The easing of suffering
                    through time erasure of
                    the sting, the temporary
                    Enlightenment of savikalpa
                    samadhi, and the seemingly
                    permanent shift of awareness
                    and Awakening to the
                    "Ture Self" of nirvikalpa
                    samadhi are neat distinctions,
                    but as you've written,
                    can cause a lot of confusion
                    and maybe even delusion.

                    Additionally, those who
                    feel compelled, or as
                    Bruce Morgen writes, are
                    "choicelessly obligated"
                    to share the good news
                    of Enlightenment, seem
                    to innocenlty over-promise
                    the availability of this
                    New Wisdom, Understanding,
                    Experiential Knowledge.

                    The Big Guys of Gurudom,
                    and the relatively unknown
                    Awakened Teachers, seem
                    to all offer a model or
                    point to a path that they
                    walked, with the expectation
                    that a similar walk will
                    produce a similar result.

                    As Bruce and Jeff Brooks
                    have written; if this
                    were so, we would have
                    millions instead of
                    hundreds of Awakened
                    Ones, Buddhas, Christs,
                    Krisnas, on earth now.

                    As for the much-hunted
                    deluded gurus, it seems
                    that this is a much-overblown
                    hunt. It is unimaginable
                    that anyone would step up
                    to the role without the
                    experiential knowledge -
                    for some power trip or
                    monetary reward. That
                    hunt is left for others.

                    Those who fire verbal
                    bombast at any talk or
                    writing of Enlightenment
                    are the more discouraging
                    and disparaging game in
                    my crosshairs.

                    Peace,

                    Jeff
                  • Jeff Belyea
                    ... Hi Jody - Thanks. The dissolving of the idea of me is one of those subtle and difficult to describe aspects of Awakening that has the rational mind hear
                    Message 9 of 22 , May 9, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                      <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                      > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                      >
                      > [snip]
                      >
                      > > To those, like Jody, for
                      > > whom it was more of an
                      > > "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
                      > > and life goes on, there
                      > > are typically no jimmies,
                      > > no cherries, but a sweetness
                      > > nevertheless. Even Greg
                      > > uses the words "sweetness
                      > > and light" in his report.
                      > >
                      > > (Sorry, Michael.)
                      > >
                      > > Sweet as ever,
                      > >
                      > > Jeff
                      >
                      > Actually, the "seeing" of "it" was accompanied
                      > by the simultaneous dissolving of the "idea of
                      > me" as Ramakrishna terms it. Watching that me
                      > dissolve was almost a shock, but it happened so
                      > quickly that there wasn't time for a reaction.
                      >
                      > This isn't to say I don't have a sense of "me,"
                      > just that its hold on identity was shattered, and
                      > has remained so ever since.
                      >
                      > I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
                      > although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
                      > before it all went down.
                      >
                      > --jody.


                      Hi Jody -

                      Thanks.

                      The dissolving of the "idea
                      of me" is one of those subtle
                      and difficult to describe
                      aspects of Awakening that
                      has the rational mind hear
                      a metal-pipe clang.

                      That shift out of the personal
                      sense of "ego" to just "being"
                      brings the sweet relief from
                      taking anything personally, and
                      it not only allows for continuity
                      of the fiery asshole persona...
                      it transforms one predisposed
                      to being a fiery asshole
                      into a fearless fiery asshole;
                      taming the lions of fear and
                      doubt and replacing those with
                      a hot and sweet pepper undercurrent.

                      Love, as always,

                      Jeff
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.