Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

[Meditation Society of America] Re: TRANSMISSION

Expand Messages
  • jodyrrr
    ... Absolutely. One s sincerity can carry them as far if not farther than any mommy or daddy surrogate one is sucked up to. While it s definitely helpful and
    Message 1 of 22 , May 3, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Reynold Wingate
      <reystar99@y...> wrote:
      > Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who wanted
      > to become disciples. He believed the spiritual path o
      > each individual is different. A guru can only give
      > general tips to grow spiritually based on his own
      > personal experience. It may not necessarily work for
      > his disciples.
      >
      > I believe a guru is not an absolute necessity for
      > spiritual growth. If you have the desire deep in you,
      > you will stumble into the truth some day.

      Absolutely. One's sincerity can carry them as
      far if not farther than any mommy or daddy surrogate
      one is sucked up to.

      While it's definitely helpful and a blessing to have a
      real guru instead of one of these nonsense transmitters,
      the inner guru takes precedent every time.
    • Greg Goode
      Hey Bruceji, That s a cool one, YAPBC. I just might use it, with full attribution, of course! --Greg
      Message 2 of 22 , May 3, 2005
      • 0 Attachment

        Hey Bruceji,

         

        That’s a cool one, YAPBC.

        I just might use it, with full

        attribution, of course!

         

        --Greg

      • jasonjamesmorgan
        ... Well, well, Your a bit father off than I originally thought. I see you are still doing your sadhana to the end of savikalpa samadhi. For if you were
        Message 3 of 22 , May 3, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          >
          > The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
          > physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
          >
          > Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
          > despite what superstitious folk want to believe
          > about their gurus.
          >
          > The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
          > a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
          >
          > What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
          > the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
          > the Self in their awareness. It's not something
          > you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
          > suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
          > can make the connection for you, but you've got to
          > see it alone, completely outside any mythological
          > beliefs anyone has about gurus.

          Well, well,

          Your a bit father off than I originally thought. I see you are still
          doing your sadhana to the end of savikalpa samadhi. For if you were
          realized, you would know that duality is obvious and apparent and
          GOD. You have not realized, as you denie one side of the coin.

          A person can send prana to wherever, whenever they choose.

          So sad, so close, but to stubborn in his sadhana to drop the concept
          of no concepts.

          I grow bored of this. Maybe I will be back next year. My compassion
          might bring forth a thought or two for you. Ta Ta.

          Namaste
          Om Namah Shivaya
        • Reynold Wingate
          Can you please rephrase the last two paragraphs? I have read somewhere that when high-sounding words are abundant in writing, that s a sign the writer is not
          Message 4 of 22 , May 3, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Can you please rephrase the last two paragraphs? I
            have read somewhere that when high-sounding words are
            abundant in writing, that's a sign the writer is not
            very sure of what he is talking about. Good writing on
            spirituality should be simple and easy to understand.
            I am lost in the last two paragraphs you wrote. Sorry!

            Reynold
            --- Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:

            ---------------------------------
            Reynold Wingate wrote:

            >Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who
            wanted
            >to become disciples.
            >
            Well, he tried to do it --
            unfortunately, after he
            died he became the nexus
            of YAPBC (Yet Another
            Posthumous Bhakti Cult).

            >He believed the spiritual path o
            >each individual is different.
            >
            That's a fact, no belief
            is required.

            >A guru can only give
            >general tips to grow spiritually based on his own
            >personal experience.
            >
            Yes, just as pointing at
            the moon isn't that same
            as being able to grab it
            and hand it over. ;-)

            >It may not necessarily work for
            >his disciples.
            >
            >
            Clearly, otherwise such
            "disciples" would themselves
            uniformly be realized.
            There's obviously no
            universal recipe for that.

            >I believe a guru is not an absolute necessity for
            >spiritual growth. If you have the desire deep in you,
            >you will stumble into the truth some day.
            >
            >
            As Jodyji himself has put it,
            the only actual prerequisite
            is sincerity. This brings
            energy and determination --
            but also an awareness that
            "the desire deep within you"
            may in fact be nothing more
            or other than garden variety
            ambition, abeit clothed in
            "spear-chill" raiment!

            Can we be both sincere and
            indefatigable in our enquiry
            without hope of status and
            attainment? Isn't that the
            subtly elusive "purity" that
            is so often spoken of among
            seekers, the surrendered
            attitude expressed by "Not
            my will, but thine" and the
            very essence of both honest
            enquiry and authentic
            meditation?


            >--- jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
            >
            >---------------------------------
            >--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
            >jasonjamesmorgan
            ><no_reply@y...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >>Hello, hello,
            >>
            >>Put two glasses of water side by side, and the
            >>
            >>
            >temperatures even
            >
            >
            >>out. This is called resonance. If you want to
            >>
            >>
            >defute transmition,
            >
            >
            >>go to the local university, and prove the world
            >>
            >>
            >wrong.
            >
            >The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
            >physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
            >
            >Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
            >despite what superstitious folk want to believe
            >about their gurus.
            >
            >The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
            >a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
            >
            >What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
            >the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
            >the Self in their awareness. It's not something
            >you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
            >suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
            >can make the connection for you, but you've got to
            >see it alone, completely outside any mythological
            >beliefs anyone has about gurus.
            >
            >



            ---------------------------------
            Yahoo! Groups Links

            To visit your group on the web, go to:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meditationsocietyofamerica/

            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
            Terms of Service.


            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Download the latest ringtones, games, and more!
            http://sg.mobile.yahoo.com
          • Bruce Morgen
            ... I could, but with all due respect, I ll decline that request at his time. ... An absurd contention imo, especially given that there is no consensus on what
            Message 5 of 22 , May 4, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              Reynold Wingate wrote:

              >Can you please rephrase the last two paragraphs?
              >
              I could, but with all due
              respect, I'll decline that
              request at his time.

              >I
              >have read somewhere that when high-sounding words are
              >abundant in writing, that's a sign the writer is not
              >very sure of what he is talking about.
              >
              An absurd contention imo,
              especially given that
              there is no consensus on
              what "high-sounding"
              means.

              >Good writing on
              >spirituality should be simple and easy to understand.
              >
              >
              Well, that certainly puts
              a good deal of what the
              ancients wrote out of the
              running, doesn't it?

              >I am lost in the last two paragraphs you wrote. Sorry!
              >
              >
              Me too -- but there it is.
              Are you sure you're not
              being a bit lazy in your
              approach? I can see only
              one or two words in those
              paragraphs that are all
              that uncommon, and the
              sentences parse pretty
              easily. The gists of both
              are quite simple and I'd be
              glad to discuss whatever
              specifics are eluding you.

              Thank you for your interest!

              >Reynold
              >--- Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
              >
              >---------------------------------
              >Reynold Wingate wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >>Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who
              >>
              >>
              >wanted
              >
              >
              >>to become disciples.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >Well, he tried to do it --
              >unfortunately, after he
              >died he became the nexus
              >of YAPBC (Yet Another
              >Posthumous Bhakti Cult).
              >
              >
              >
              >>He believed the spiritual path o
              >>each individual is different.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >That's a fact, no belief
              >is required.
              >
              >
              >
              >>A guru can only give
              >>general tips to grow spiritually based on his own
              >>personal experience.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >Yes, just as pointing at
              >the moon isn't that same
              >as being able to grab it
              >and hand it over. ;-)
              >
              >
              >
              >>It may not necessarily work for
              >>his disciples.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >Clearly, otherwise such
              >"disciples" would themselves
              >uniformly be realized.
              >There's obviously no
              >universal recipe for that.
              >
              >
              >
              >>I believe a guru is not an absolute necessity for
              >>spiritual growth. If you have the desire deep in you,
              >>you will stumble into the truth some day.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >As Jodyji himself has put it,
              >the only actual prerequisite
              >is sincerity. This brings
              >energy and determination --
              >but also an awareness that
              >"the desire deep within you"
              >may in fact be nothing more
              >or other than garden variety
              >ambition, abeit clothed in
              >"spear-chill" raiment!
              >
              >Can we be both sincere and
              >indefatigable in our enquiry
              >without hope of status and
              >attainment? Isn't that the
              >subtly elusive "purity" that
              >is so often spoken of among
              >seekers, the surrendered
              >attitude expressed by "Not
              >my will, but thine" and the
              >very essence of both honest
              >enquiry and authentic
              >meditation?
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >>--- jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
              >>
              >>---------------------------------
              >>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
              >>jasonjamesmorgan
              >><no_reply@y...> wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>>Hello, hello,
              >>>
              >>>Put two glasses of water side by side, and the
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>temperatures even
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>>out. This is called resonance. If you want to
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>defute transmition,
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>>go to the local university, and prove the world
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>wrong.
              >>
              >>The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
              >>physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
              >>
              >>Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
              >>despite what superstitious folk want to believe
              >>about their gurus.
              >>
              >>The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
              >>a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
              >>
              >>What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
              >>the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
              >>the Self in their awareness. It's not something
              >>you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
              >>suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
              >>can make the connection for you, but you've got to
              >>see it alone, completely outside any mythological
              >>beliefs anyone has about gurus.
              >>
              >>
              >>
            • jodyrrr
              ... But the obviousness of duality does not include the reality of the magical nonsense which exists in spiritual culture, the nonsense you are taking for
              Message 6 of 22 , May 4, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, jasonjamesmorgan
                <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                >
                > >
                > > The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
                > > physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
                > >
                > > Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
                > > despite what superstitious folk want to believe
                > > about their gurus.
                > >
                > > The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
                > > a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
                > >
                > > What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
                > > the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
                > > the Self in their awareness. It's not something
                > > you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
                > > suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
                > > can make the connection for you, but you've got to
                > > see it alone, completely outside any mythological
                > > beliefs anyone has about gurus.
                >
                > Well, well,
                >
                > Your a bit father off than I originally thought. I see you are still
                > doing your sadhana to the end of savikalpa samadhi. For if you were
                > realized, you would know that duality is obvious and apparent and
                > GOD. You have not realized, as you denie one side of the coin.

                But the obviousness of duality does not include the reality
                of the magical nonsense which exists in spiritual culture,
                the nonsense you are taking for fact. The nonsense which
                chokes the life out of realization like algae in a pond.

                > A person can send prana to wherever, whenever they choose.

                Sure, as a intellectual conceit or in a dream.

                > So sad, so close, but to stubborn in his sadhana to drop the concept
                > of no concepts.

                The same is said of you, unable to see the truth that sits
                on the end of your nose.

                > I grow bored of this. Maybe I will be back next year. My compassion
                > might bring forth a thought or two for you. Ta Ta.
                >
                > Namaste
                > Om Namah Shivaya

                How generous. Don't let the door hit you in
                the ass.
              • Jeff Belyea
                ... Yes, we can. When the enquiry comes from a place of despair, degradation, shame and guilt, and the hope is for release from their grip, neither purity nor
                Message 7 of 22 , May 5, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  > Can we be both sincere and
                  > indefatigable in our enquiry
                  > without hope of status and
                  > attainment?

                  Yes, we can. When the enquiry
                  comes from a place of despair,
                  degradation, shame and guilt,
                  and the hope is for release
                  from their grip, neither purity
                  nor status nor attainment are
                  the foci - unless you are
                  going to quibble that attainment
                  of peace of mind is to be
                  counted among "attainments".
                  It is gift. The fact that
                  IT grants purity does not
                  count, either. The POM and
                  purity are totally Jackerjacks'
                  surprises. (Just a little
                  anticipatory fencing
                  before the touche).

                  The awakening in this context
                  is a startling and unexpected
                  helping of jimmies, a cherry
                  on top, a...lot of sweetness,
                  and frequently gives birth to
                  a Bhakti Yogi - a gratitude
                  attitude for the double scoop.

                  The fact that reports of
                  this unique solution are
                  often couched in spiritual
                  terms may be the result of
                  a family tradition or a
                  cultural prime coat.

                  Some will hear the reports
                  of spiritual enlightenment
                  as ego aggrandizement and
                  attempts to attain status
                  or imply some attainment
                  of a lofty estate. But the
                  Bhakti Yogi has no such
                  interests.

                  To those, like Jodi, for
                  whom it was more of an
                  "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
                  and life goes on, there
                  are typically no jimmies,
                  no cherries, but a sweetness
                  nevertheless. Even Greg
                  uses the words "sweetness
                  and light" in his report.

                  (Sorry, Michael.)

                  Sweet as ever,

                  Jeff
                • Greg Goode
                  ... ===These are good points. Sincerely and singlemindedly trying to end one s suffering is not the same as going for the status of having attained a goal.
                  Message 8 of 22 , May 5, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                    <jeff@m...> wrote:
                    > > Can we be both sincere and
                    > > indefatigable in our enquiry
                    > > without hope of status and
                    > > attainment?
                    >
                    > Yes, we can. When the enquiry
                    > comes from a place of despair,
                    > degradation, shame and guilt,
                    > and the hope is for release
                    > from their grip, neither purity
                    > nor status nor attainment are
                    > the foci.

                    ...

                    > Even Greg uses the words "sweetness
                    > and light" in his report.

                    ===These are good points. Sincerely and singlemindedly trying to end
                    one's suffering is not the same as going for the status of having
                    attained a goal. When in the middle of great suffering, a person
                    would gladly trade all chances of lofty attainment for the relief
                    from suffering.

                    I remember one AIDS activist mentioning that he visited some AIDS
                    patients in the hospital. They said something that really made an
                    impression on him. They told him that sure, they remembered the
                    feverishly strong sexual compulsion they felt when they had sex all
                    those times - unprotected. There's a sort of divine madness that
                    takes over, seems like it will protect you. Now, they are
                    experiencing the aftermath. They all told the activist that they'd
                    gladly give away the sexual experiences they had, plus all hope of
                    *ever* having sex again, if they could only be free of the virus now.

                    In my case, I was intensely looking into the essence of my nature.
                    What made me ME? What makes anyone what they are, and not something
                    else? Where is my identity located? How is it carried? How is it
                    *my* identity? Although this was not a painful inquiry, it was a
                    constant one - yes, and it had a touch of sweet, light fascination.
                    I was really in the grips of it. My head was in the tiger's mouth.
                    I hadn't heard of any satsangs or spiritual groups doing this kind of
                    stuff. There was no association in my mind of a level, status or
                    endpoint to be reached. Because I had no acquaintances doing this
                    kind of thing, I really didn't have a socially constructed notion of
                    a kind of person to compare myself to, or "an after it is over." I
                    was doing it in kind of an open and unknowing way.

                    --Greg

                    P.S. Plus, meditation helped!
                  • jodyrrr
                    ... wrote: [snip] ... Actually, the seeing of it was accompanied by the simultaneous dissolving of the idea of me as Ramakrishna terms it.
                    Message 9 of 22 , May 5, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                      <jeff@m...> wrote:

                      [snip]

                      > To those, like Jodi, for
                      > whom it was more of an
                      > "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
                      > and life goes on, there
                      > are typically no jimmies,
                      > no cherries, but a sweetness
                      > nevertheless. Even Greg
                      > uses the words "sweetness
                      > and light" in his report.
                      >
                      > (Sorry, Michael.)
                      >
                      > Sweet as ever,
                      >
                      > Jeff

                      Actually, the "seeing" of "it" was accompanied
                      by the simultaneous dissolving of the "idea of
                      me" as Ramakrishna terms it. Watching that me
                      dissolve was almost a shock, but it happened so
                      quickly that there wasn't time for a reaction.

                      This isn't to say I don't have a sense of "me,"
                      just that its hold on identity was shattered, and
                      has remained so ever since.

                      I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
                      although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
                      before it all went down.

                      --jody.
                    • Greg Goode
                      ... ===Yeah, that s just it. Even aging, the deaths of parents, friends, terminal illnesses, my wife going to federal detention for an indeterminate period,
                      Message 10 of 22 , May 5, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                        <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:


                        > I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
                        > although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
                        > before it all went down.

                        ===Yeah, that's just it. Even aging, the deaths of parents, friends,
                        terminal illnesses, my wife going to federal detention for an
                        indeterminate period, not enough cash for her bail (no bail bonds
                        accepted for immigration stuff), $1200 phone bills, bleeding
                        rollerblading accidents, bike accidents, sprains -- all this isn't
                        separate from sweetness, space and light.

                        --Greg
                      • de la rouviere
                        Dear Jeff, May I come in here with some kind of observation. ... comes from a place of despair, degradation, shame and guilt, and the hope is for release from
                        Message 11 of 22 , May 6, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Dear Jeff,
                           
                          May I come in here with some kind of observation.
                           
                          You said:
                           
                           >>Yes, we can. When the enquiry
                          comes from a place of despair,
                          degradation, shame and guilt,
                          and the hope is for release
                          from their grip,>> snip..
                           
                          Could it also be that this kind of suffering-based enquiry could have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross suffering has worked itself gradually out of the system there remains the pure suffering of duality in its most delicate form yet to be transcended? 
                           
                          I guess what I am suggesting is that there is the totally untrimmed tree to start with and all that is evident are forms of emotional, psychological and mental disturbances.  These no doubt form the bulk of the conscious experience of separation at that level of disorganization.  However, there comes a time along the path of self-enquiry where these things no longer distract the practitioner so heavily from inner silence and some sense of freedom from conditioning and shadow emotional stuff.  This in itself brings a lightness of being, but there is still the residual state of duality present, which could easily again be drawn into mere reactivity and mental distortion.  Yet, at this stage, one is no longer driven by the gross suffering of personal historical stuff.  What is on the table is just the mere sense of duality.  It seems to me that only when this has been recognized as suffering and ways have been found to transcend this fundamental inclination towards mere separateness, can the freedom of which you may be speaking reveal itself.
                           
                          Or perhaps we may be talking about different experiences altogether?.  It is really difficult to apprehend the very many manifestations of freedom from where people nowadays speak.  So many claim freedom and enlightement.  I often find it difficult to fully appreciate where they are coming from. In the olden days, and as tradition has it, practioners in the Zen tradition actually often left their teachers, or were sent away to other teachers to have the different levels of their 'enlightenment' verified, disputed, worked on etc. lest the student fools h/herself into truly believing they are fully enlightened while perhaps the finer points might still be missing.  As yet, we have no such kind of 'peer review' in the west relative to our enlightening experiences. So we all seem just have our own relative light to stand or fall by.  This may of course create some serious confusion for many  - and a ready breeding ground for illusion?
                           
                          Have a good weekend,
                          Moller de la Rouviere
                           
                           
                        • Jeff Belyea
                          ... have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross suffering has worked
                          Message 12 of 22 , May 6, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "de la rouviere"
                            <mollerdlr@t...> wrote:
                            > Dear Jeff,
                            >
                            > May I come in here with some kind of observation.
                            >
                            > You said:
                            >
                            > >>Yes, we can. When the enquiry
                            > comes from a place of despair,
                            > degradation, shame and guilt,
                            > and the hope is for release
                            > from their grip,>> snip..
                            >
                            > Could it also be that this kind of suffering-based enquiry could
                            have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from
                            the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross
                            suffering has worked itself gradually out of the system there remains
                            the pure suffering of duality in its most delicate form yet to be
                            transcended?
                            >
                            > I guess what I am suggesting is that there is the totally untrimmed
                            tree to start with and all that is evident are forms of emotional,
                            psychological and mental disturbances. These no doubt form the bulk
                            of the conscious experience of separation at that level of
                            disorganization. However, there comes a time along the path of self-
                            enquiry where these things no longer distract the practitioner so
                            heavily from inner silence and some sense of freedom from
                            conditioning and shadow emotional stuff. This in itself brings a
                            lightness of being, but there is still the residual state of duality
                            present, which could easily again be drawn into mere reactivity and
                            mental distortion. Yet, at this stage, one is no longer driven by
                            the gross suffering of personal historical stuff. What is on the
                            table is just the mere sense of duality. It seems to me that only
                            when this has been recognized as suffering and ways have been found
                            to transcend this fundamental inclination towards mere separateness,
                            can the freedom of which you may be speaking reveal itself.
                            >
                            > Or perhaps we may be talking about different experiences
                            altogether?. It is really difficult to apprehend the very many
                            manifestations of freedom from where people nowadays speak. So many
                            claim freedom and enlightement. I often find it difficult to fully
                            appreciate where they are coming from. In the olden days, and as
                            tradition has it, practioners in the Zen tradition actually often
                            left their teachers, or were sent away to other teachers to have the
                            different levels of their 'enlightenment' verified, disputed, worked
                            on etc. lest the student fools h/herself into truly believing they
                            are fully enlightened while perhaps the finer points might still be
                            missing. As yet, we have no such kind of 'peer review' in the west
                            relative to our enlightening experiences. So we all seem just have
                            our own relative light to stand or fall by. This may of course
                            create some serious confusion for many - and a ready breeding ground
                            for illusion?
                            >
                            > Have a good weekend,
                            > Moller de la Rouviere
                            > www.spiritualhumanism.co.za

                            Thank you, Moller.

                            Of course, we can only
                            speak authentically
                            from our own direct
                            experience. And, yes,
                            this is a difficult
                            task - to communicate
                            our personal experience
                            clearly and completely.

                            The gradual working out
                            of the issues that were
                            the root causes of
                            suffering, either through
                            the grace of time or
                            with the help of a
                            therapeutic approach
                            is distinctly different
                            from the experience of
                            Enlightened Awakening, a
                            "stepping into perfection"
                            in which the startling
                            realization of "all is well"
                            presents itself, as if
                            beyond anything the mind
                            has previously thought
                            or imagined.

                            The latter mends the
                            illusion of separation
                            and sense of duality, and
                            leaves a residual sweetness
                            as an undercurrent of
                            day-to-day consciousness
                            (as Jody and Greg have
                            noted in recent posts)
                            that is above any and all
                            circumstances of life
                            events.

                            So many models attempt
                            to distinguish between
                            the therapeutic recovery
                            and the Enlightened, more
                            dramatic resolution of
                            suffering. And even these
                            have subsets. The savikalpa
                            and nirvikalpa, and then
                            sahaj samadhi, come to
                            mind.

                            The easing of suffering
                            through time erasure of
                            the sting, the temporary
                            Enlightenment of savikalpa
                            samadhi, and the seemingly
                            permanent shift of awareness
                            and Awakening to the
                            "Ture Self" of nirvikalpa
                            samadhi are neat distinctions,
                            but as you've written,
                            can cause a lot of confusion
                            and maybe even delusion.

                            Additionally, those who
                            feel compelled, or as
                            Bruce Morgen writes, are
                            "choicelessly obligated"
                            to share the good news
                            of Enlightenment, seem
                            to innocenlty over-promise
                            the availability of this
                            New Wisdom, Understanding,
                            Experiential Knowledge.

                            The Big Guys of Gurudom,
                            and the relatively unknown
                            Awakened Teachers, seem
                            to all offer a model or
                            point to a path that they
                            walked, with the expectation
                            that a similar walk will
                            produce a similar result.

                            As Bruce and Jeff Brooks
                            have written; if this
                            were so, we would have
                            millions instead of
                            hundreds of Awakened
                            Ones, Buddhas, Christs,
                            Krisnas, on earth now.

                            As for the much-hunted
                            deluded gurus, it seems
                            that this is a much-overblown
                            hunt. It is unimaginable
                            that anyone would step up
                            to the role without the
                            experiential knowledge -
                            for some power trip or
                            monetary reward. That
                            hunt is left for others.

                            Those who fire verbal
                            bombast at any talk or
                            writing of Enlightenment
                            are the more discouraging
                            and disparaging game in
                            my crosshairs.

                            Peace,

                            Jeff
                          • Jeff Belyea
                            ... Hi Jody - Thanks. The dissolving of the idea of me is one of those subtle and difficult to describe aspects of Awakening that has the rational mind hear
                            Message 13 of 22 , May 9, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                              <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                              > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                              >
                              > [snip]
                              >
                              > > To those, like Jody, for
                              > > whom it was more of an
                              > > "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
                              > > and life goes on, there
                              > > are typically no jimmies,
                              > > no cherries, but a sweetness
                              > > nevertheless. Even Greg
                              > > uses the words "sweetness
                              > > and light" in his report.
                              > >
                              > > (Sorry, Michael.)
                              > >
                              > > Sweet as ever,
                              > >
                              > > Jeff
                              >
                              > Actually, the "seeing" of "it" was accompanied
                              > by the simultaneous dissolving of the "idea of
                              > me" as Ramakrishna terms it. Watching that me
                              > dissolve was almost a shock, but it happened so
                              > quickly that there wasn't time for a reaction.
                              >
                              > This isn't to say I don't have a sense of "me,"
                              > just that its hold on identity was shattered, and
                              > has remained so ever since.
                              >
                              > I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
                              > although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
                              > before it all went down.
                              >
                              > --jody.


                              Hi Jody -

                              Thanks.

                              The dissolving of the "idea
                              of me" is one of those subtle
                              and difficult to describe
                              aspects of Awakening that
                              has the rational mind hear
                              a metal-pipe clang.

                              That shift out of the personal
                              sense of "ego" to just "being"
                              brings the sweet relief from
                              taking anything personally, and
                              it not only allows for continuity
                              of the fiery asshole persona...
                              it transforms one predisposed
                              to being a fiery asshole
                              into a fearless fiery asshole;
                              taming the lions of fear and
                              doubt and replacing those with
                              a hot and sweet pepper undercurrent.

                              Love, as always,

                              Jeff
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.