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Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: TRANSMISSION

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  • Bruce Morgen
    ... Well, he tried to do it -- unfortunately, after he died he became the nexus of YAPBC (Yet Another Posthumous Bhakti Cult). ... That s a fact, no belief is
    Message 1 of 22 , May 3, 2005
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      Reynold Wingate wrote:

      >Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who wanted
      >to become disciples.
      >
      Well, he tried to do it --
      unfortunately, after he
      died he became the nexus
      of YAPBC (Yet Another
      Posthumous Bhakti Cult).

      >He believed the spiritual path o
      >each individual is different.
      >
      That's a fact, no belief
      is required.

      >A guru can only give
      >general tips to grow spiritually based on his own
      >personal experience.
      >
      Yes, just as pointing at
      the moon isn't that same
      as being able to grab it
      and hand it over. ;-)

      >It may not necessarily work for
      >his disciples.
      >
      >
      Clearly, otherwise such
      "disciples" would themselves
      uniformly be realized.
      There's obviously no
      universal recipe for that.

      >I believe a guru is not an absolute necessity for
      >spiritual growth. If you have the desire deep in you,
      >you will stumble into the truth some day.
      >
      >
      As Jodyji himself has put it,
      the only actual prerequisite
      is sincerity. This brings
      energy and determination --
      but also an awareness that
      "the desire deep within you"
      may in fact be nothing more
      or other than garden variety
      ambition, abeit clothed in
      "spear-chill" raiment!

      Can we be both sincere and
      indefatigable in our enquiry
      without hope of status and
      attainment? Isn't that the
      subtly elusive "purity" that
      is so often spoken of among
      seekers, the surrendered
      attitude expressed by "Not
      my will, but thine" and the
      very essence of both honest
      enquiry and authentic
      meditation?


      >--- jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
      >
      >---------------------------------
      >--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
      >jasonjamesmorgan
      ><no_reply@y...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >>Hello, hello,
      >>
      >>Put two glasses of water side by side, and the
      >>
      >>
      >temperatures even
      >
      >
      >>out. This is called resonance. If you want to
      >>
      >>
      >defute transmition,
      >
      >
      >>go to the local university, and prove the world
      >>
      >>
      >wrong.
      >
      >The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
      >physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
      >
      >Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
      >despite what superstitious folk want to believe
      >about their gurus.
      >
      >The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
      >a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
      >
      >What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
      >the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
      >the Self in their awareness. It's not something
      >you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
      >suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
      >can make the connection for you, but you've got to
      >see it alone, completely outside any mythological
      >beliefs anyone has about gurus.
      >
      >
    • jodyrrr
      ... Absolutely. One s sincerity can carry them as far if not farther than any mommy or daddy surrogate one is sucked up to. While it s definitely helpful and
      Message 2 of 22 , May 3, 2005
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Reynold Wingate
        <reystar99@y...> wrote:
        > Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who wanted
        > to become disciples. He believed the spiritual path o
        > each individual is different. A guru can only give
        > general tips to grow spiritually based on his own
        > personal experience. It may not necessarily work for
        > his disciples.
        >
        > I believe a guru is not an absolute necessity for
        > spiritual growth. If you have the desire deep in you,
        > you will stumble into the truth some day.

        Absolutely. One's sincerity can carry them as
        far if not farther than any mommy or daddy surrogate
        one is sucked up to.

        While it's definitely helpful and a blessing to have a
        real guru instead of one of these nonsense transmitters,
        the inner guru takes precedent every time.
      • Greg Goode
        Hey Bruceji, That s a cool one, YAPBC. I just might use it, with full attribution, of course! --Greg
        Message 3 of 22 , May 3, 2005
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          Hey Bruceji,

           

          That’s a cool one, YAPBC.

          I just might use it, with full

          attribution, of course!

           

          --Greg

        • jasonjamesmorgan
          ... Well, well, Your a bit father off than I originally thought. I see you are still doing your sadhana to the end of savikalpa samadhi. For if you were
          Message 4 of 22 , May 3, 2005
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            >
            > The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
            > physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
            >
            > Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
            > despite what superstitious folk want to believe
            > about their gurus.
            >
            > The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
            > a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
            >
            > What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
            > the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
            > the Self in their awareness. It's not something
            > you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
            > suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
            > can make the connection for you, but you've got to
            > see it alone, completely outside any mythological
            > beliefs anyone has about gurus.

            Well, well,

            Your a bit father off than I originally thought. I see you are still
            doing your sadhana to the end of savikalpa samadhi. For if you were
            realized, you would know that duality is obvious and apparent and
            GOD. You have not realized, as you denie one side of the coin.

            A person can send prana to wherever, whenever they choose.

            So sad, so close, but to stubborn in his sadhana to drop the concept
            of no concepts.

            I grow bored of this. Maybe I will be back next year. My compassion
            might bring forth a thought or two for you. Ta Ta.

            Namaste
            Om Namah Shivaya
          • Reynold Wingate
            Can you please rephrase the last two paragraphs? I have read somewhere that when high-sounding words are abundant in writing, that s a sign the writer is not
            Message 5 of 22 , May 3, 2005
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              Can you please rephrase the last two paragraphs? I
              have read somewhere that when high-sounding words are
              abundant in writing, that's a sign the writer is not
              very sure of what he is talking about. Good writing on
              spirituality should be simple and easy to understand.
              I am lost in the last two paragraphs you wrote. Sorry!

              Reynold
              --- Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:

              ---------------------------------
              Reynold Wingate wrote:

              >Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who
              wanted
              >to become disciples.
              >
              Well, he tried to do it --
              unfortunately, after he
              died he became the nexus
              of YAPBC (Yet Another
              Posthumous Bhakti Cult).

              >He believed the spiritual path o
              >each individual is different.
              >
              That's a fact, no belief
              is required.

              >A guru can only give
              >general tips to grow spiritually based on his own
              >personal experience.
              >
              Yes, just as pointing at
              the moon isn't that same
              as being able to grab it
              and hand it over. ;-)

              >It may not necessarily work for
              >his disciples.
              >
              >
              Clearly, otherwise such
              "disciples" would themselves
              uniformly be realized.
              There's obviously no
              universal recipe for that.

              >I believe a guru is not an absolute necessity for
              >spiritual growth. If you have the desire deep in you,
              >you will stumble into the truth some day.
              >
              >
              As Jodyji himself has put it,
              the only actual prerequisite
              is sincerity. This brings
              energy and determination --
              but also an awareness that
              "the desire deep within you"
              may in fact be nothing more
              or other than garden variety
              ambition, abeit clothed in
              "spear-chill" raiment!

              Can we be both sincere and
              indefatigable in our enquiry
              without hope of status and
              attainment? Isn't that the
              subtly elusive "purity" that
              is so often spoken of among
              seekers, the surrendered
              attitude expressed by "Not
              my will, but thine" and the
              very essence of both honest
              enquiry and authentic
              meditation?


              >--- jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
              >
              >---------------------------------
              >--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
              >jasonjamesmorgan
              ><no_reply@y...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >>Hello, hello,
              >>
              >>Put two glasses of water side by side, and the
              >>
              >>
              >temperatures even
              >
              >
              >>out. This is called resonance. If you want to
              >>
              >>
              >defute transmition,
              >
              >
              >>go to the local university, and prove the world
              >>
              >>
              >wrong.
              >
              >The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
              >physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
              >
              >Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
              >despite what superstitious folk want to believe
              >about their gurus.
              >
              >The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
              >a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
              >
              >What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
              >the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
              >the Self in their awareness. It's not something
              >you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
              >suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
              >can make the connection for you, but you've got to
              >see it alone, completely outside any mythological
              >beliefs anyone has about gurus.
              >
              >



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            • Bruce Morgen
              ... I could, but with all due respect, I ll decline that request at his time. ... An absurd contention imo, especially given that there is no consensus on what
              Message 6 of 22 , May 4, 2005
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                Reynold Wingate wrote:

                >Can you please rephrase the last two paragraphs?
                >
                I could, but with all due
                respect, I'll decline that
                request at his time.

                >I
                >have read somewhere that when high-sounding words are
                >abundant in writing, that's a sign the writer is not
                >very sure of what he is talking about.
                >
                An absurd contention imo,
                especially given that
                there is no consensus on
                what "high-sounding"
                means.

                >Good writing on
                >spirituality should be simple and easy to understand.
                >
                >
                Well, that certainly puts
                a good deal of what the
                ancients wrote out of the
                running, doesn't it?

                >I am lost in the last two paragraphs you wrote. Sorry!
                >
                >
                Me too -- but there it is.
                Are you sure you're not
                being a bit lazy in your
                approach? I can see only
                one or two words in those
                paragraphs that are all
                that uncommon, and the
                sentences parse pretty
                easily. The gists of both
                are quite simple and I'd be
                glad to discuss whatever
                specifics are eluding you.

                Thank you for your interest!

                >Reynold
                >--- Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
                >
                >---------------------------------
                >Reynold Wingate wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >>Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who
                >>
                >>
                >wanted
                >
                >
                >>to become disciples.
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >Well, he tried to do it --
                >unfortunately, after he
                >died he became the nexus
                >of YAPBC (Yet Another
                >Posthumous Bhakti Cult).
                >
                >
                >
                >>He believed the spiritual path o
                >>each individual is different.
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >That's a fact, no belief
                >is required.
                >
                >
                >
                >>A guru can only give
                >>general tips to grow spiritually based on his own
                >>personal experience.
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >Yes, just as pointing at
                >the moon isn't that same
                >as being able to grab it
                >and hand it over. ;-)
                >
                >
                >
                >>It may not necessarily work for
                >>his disciples.
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >Clearly, otherwise such
                >"disciples" would themselves
                >uniformly be realized.
                >There's obviously no
                >universal recipe for that.
                >
                >
                >
                >>I believe a guru is not an absolute necessity for
                >>spiritual growth. If you have the desire deep in you,
                >>you will stumble into the truth some day.
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >As Jodyji himself has put it,
                >the only actual prerequisite
                >is sincerity. This brings
                >energy and determination --
                >but also an awareness that
                >"the desire deep within you"
                >may in fact be nothing more
                >or other than garden variety
                >ambition, abeit clothed in
                >"spear-chill" raiment!
                >
                >Can we be both sincere and
                >indefatigable in our enquiry
                >without hope of status and
                >attainment? Isn't that the
                >subtly elusive "purity" that
                >is so often spoken of among
                >seekers, the surrendered
                >attitude expressed by "Not
                >my will, but thine" and the
                >very essence of both honest
                >enquiry and authentic
                >meditation?
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>--- jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
                >>
                >>---------------------------------
                >>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                >>jasonjamesmorgan
                >><no_reply@y...> wrote:
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>>Hello, hello,
                >>>
                >>>Put two glasses of water side by side, and the
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>temperatures even
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>>out. This is called resonance. If you want to
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>defute transmition,
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>>go to the local university, and prove the world
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>wrong.
                >>
                >>The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
                >>physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
                >>
                >>Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
                >>despite what superstitious folk want to believe
                >>about their gurus.
                >>
                >>The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
                >>a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
                >>
                >>What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
                >>the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
                >>the Self in their awareness. It's not something
                >>you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
                >>suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
                >>can make the connection for you, but you've got to
                >>see it alone, completely outside any mythological
                >>beliefs anyone has about gurus.
                >>
                >>
                >>
              • jodyrrr
                ... But the obviousness of duality does not include the reality of the magical nonsense which exists in spiritual culture, the nonsense you are taking for
                Message 7 of 22 , May 4, 2005
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                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, jasonjamesmorgan
                  <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > > The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
                  > > physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
                  > >
                  > > Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
                  > > despite what superstitious folk want to believe
                  > > about their gurus.
                  > >
                  > > The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
                  > > a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
                  > >
                  > > What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
                  > > the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
                  > > the Self in their awareness. It's not something
                  > > you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
                  > > suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
                  > > can make the connection for you, but you've got to
                  > > see it alone, completely outside any mythological
                  > > beliefs anyone has about gurus.
                  >
                  > Well, well,
                  >
                  > Your a bit father off than I originally thought. I see you are still
                  > doing your sadhana to the end of savikalpa samadhi. For if you were
                  > realized, you would know that duality is obvious and apparent and
                  > GOD. You have not realized, as you denie one side of the coin.

                  But the obviousness of duality does not include the reality
                  of the magical nonsense which exists in spiritual culture,
                  the nonsense you are taking for fact. The nonsense which
                  chokes the life out of realization like algae in a pond.

                  > A person can send prana to wherever, whenever they choose.

                  Sure, as a intellectual conceit or in a dream.

                  > So sad, so close, but to stubborn in his sadhana to drop the concept
                  > of no concepts.

                  The same is said of you, unable to see the truth that sits
                  on the end of your nose.

                  > I grow bored of this. Maybe I will be back next year. My compassion
                  > might bring forth a thought or two for you. Ta Ta.
                  >
                  > Namaste
                  > Om Namah Shivaya

                  How generous. Don't let the door hit you in
                  the ass.
                • Jeff Belyea
                  ... Yes, we can. When the enquiry comes from a place of despair, degradation, shame and guilt, and the hope is for release from their grip, neither purity nor
                  Message 8 of 22 , May 5, 2005
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                    > Can we be both sincere and
                    > indefatigable in our enquiry
                    > without hope of status and
                    > attainment?

                    Yes, we can. When the enquiry
                    comes from a place of despair,
                    degradation, shame and guilt,
                    and the hope is for release
                    from their grip, neither purity
                    nor status nor attainment are
                    the foci - unless you are
                    going to quibble that attainment
                    of peace of mind is to be
                    counted among "attainments".
                    It is gift. The fact that
                    IT grants purity does not
                    count, either. The POM and
                    purity are totally Jackerjacks'
                    surprises. (Just a little
                    anticipatory fencing
                    before the touche).

                    The awakening in this context
                    is a startling and unexpected
                    helping of jimmies, a cherry
                    on top, a...lot of sweetness,
                    and frequently gives birth to
                    a Bhakti Yogi - a gratitude
                    attitude for the double scoop.

                    The fact that reports of
                    this unique solution are
                    often couched in spiritual
                    terms may be the result of
                    a family tradition or a
                    cultural prime coat.

                    Some will hear the reports
                    of spiritual enlightenment
                    as ego aggrandizement and
                    attempts to attain status
                    or imply some attainment
                    of a lofty estate. But the
                    Bhakti Yogi has no such
                    interests.

                    To those, like Jodi, for
                    whom it was more of an
                    "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
                    and life goes on, there
                    are typically no jimmies,
                    no cherries, but a sweetness
                    nevertheless. Even Greg
                    uses the words "sweetness
                    and light" in his report.

                    (Sorry, Michael.)

                    Sweet as ever,

                    Jeff
                  • Greg Goode
                    ... ===These are good points. Sincerely and singlemindedly trying to end one s suffering is not the same as going for the status of having attained a goal.
                    Message 9 of 22 , May 5, 2005
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                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                      <jeff@m...> wrote:
                      > > Can we be both sincere and
                      > > indefatigable in our enquiry
                      > > without hope of status and
                      > > attainment?
                      >
                      > Yes, we can. When the enquiry
                      > comes from a place of despair,
                      > degradation, shame and guilt,
                      > and the hope is for release
                      > from their grip, neither purity
                      > nor status nor attainment are
                      > the foci.

                      ...

                      > Even Greg uses the words "sweetness
                      > and light" in his report.

                      ===These are good points. Sincerely and singlemindedly trying to end
                      one's suffering is not the same as going for the status of having
                      attained a goal. When in the middle of great suffering, a person
                      would gladly trade all chances of lofty attainment for the relief
                      from suffering.

                      I remember one AIDS activist mentioning that he visited some AIDS
                      patients in the hospital. They said something that really made an
                      impression on him. They told him that sure, they remembered the
                      feverishly strong sexual compulsion they felt when they had sex all
                      those times - unprotected. There's a sort of divine madness that
                      takes over, seems like it will protect you. Now, they are
                      experiencing the aftermath. They all told the activist that they'd
                      gladly give away the sexual experiences they had, plus all hope of
                      *ever* having sex again, if they could only be free of the virus now.

                      In my case, I was intensely looking into the essence of my nature.
                      What made me ME? What makes anyone what they are, and not something
                      else? Where is my identity located? How is it carried? How is it
                      *my* identity? Although this was not a painful inquiry, it was a
                      constant one - yes, and it had a touch of sweet, light fascination.
                      I was really in the grips of it. My head was in the tiger's mouth.
                      I hadn't heard of any satsangs or spiritual groups doing this kind of
                      stuff. There was no association in my mind of a level, status or
                      endpoint to be reached. Because I had no acquaintances doing this
                      kind of thing, I really didn't have a socially constructed notion of
                      a kind of person to compare myself to, or "an after it is over." I
                      was doing it in kind of an open and unknowing way.

                      --Greg

                      P.S. Plus, meditation helped!
                    • jodyrrr
                      ... wrote: [snip] ... Actually, the seeing of it was accompanied by the simultaneous dissolving of the idea of me as Ramakrishna terms it.
                      Message 10 of 22 , May 5, 2005
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                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                        <jeff@m...> wrote:

                        [snip]

                        > To those, like Jodi, for
                        > whom it was more of an
                        > "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
                        > and life goes on, there
                        > are typically no jimmies,
                        > no cherries, but a sweetness
                        > nevertheless. Even Greg
                        > uses the words "sweetness
                        > and light" in his report.
                        >
                        > (Sorry, Michael.)
                        >
                        > Sweet as ever,
                        >
                        > Jeff

                        Actually, the "seeing" of "it" was accompanied
                        by the simultaneous dissolving of the "idea of
                        me" as Ramakrishna terms it. Watching that me
                        dissolve was almost a shock, but it happened so
                        quickly that there wasn't time for a reaction.

                        This isn't to say I don't have a sense of "me,"
                        just that its hold on identity was shattered, and
                        has remained so ever since.

                        I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
                        although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
                        before it all went down.

                        --jody.
                      • Greg Goode
                        ... ===Yeah, that s just it. Even aging, the deaths of parents, friends, terminal illnesses, my wife going to federal detention for an indeterminate period,
                        Message 11 of 22 , May 5, 2005
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                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                          <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:


                          > I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
                          > although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
                          > before it all went down.

                          ===Yeah, that's just it. Even aging, the deaths of parents, friends,
                          terminal illnesses, my wife going to federal detention for an
                          indeterminate period, not enough cash for her bail (no bail bonds
                          accepted for immigration stuff), $1200 phone bills, bleeding
                          rollerblading accidents, bike accidents, sprains -- all this isn't
                          separate from sweetness, space and light.

                          --Greg
                        • de la rouviere
                          Dear Jeff, May I come in here with some kind of observation. ... comes from a place of despair, degradation, shame and guilt, and the hope is for release from
                          Message 12 of 22 , May 6, 2005
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                            Dear Jeff,
                             
                            May I come in here with some kind of observation.
                             
                            You said:
                             
                             >>Yes, we can. When the enquiry
                            comes from a place of despair,
                            degradation, shame and guilt,
                            and the hope is for release
                            from their grip,>> snip..
                             
                            Could it also be that this kind of suffering-based enquiry could have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross suffering has worked itself gradually out of the system there remains the pure suffering of duality in its most delicate form yet to be transcended? 
                             
                            I guess what I am suggesting is that there is the totally untrimmed tree to start with and all that is evident are forms of emotional, psychological and mental disturbances.  These no doubt form the bulk of the conscious experience of separation at that level of disorganization.  However, there comes a time along the path of self-enquiry where these things no longer distract the practitioner so heavily from inner silence and some sense of freedom from conditioning and shadow emotional stuff.  This in itself brings a lightness of being, but there is still the residual state of duality present, which could easily again be drawn into mere reactivity and mental distortion.  Yet, at this stage, one is no longer driven by the gross suffering of personal historical stuff.  What is on the table is just the mere sense of duality.  It seems to me that only when this has been recognized as suffering and ways have been found to transcend this fundamental inclination towards mere separateness, can the freedom of which you may be speaking reveal itself.
                             
                            Or perhaps we may be talking about different experiences altogether?.  It is really difficult to apprehend the very many manifestations of freedom from where people nowadays speak.  So many claim freedom and enlightement.  I often find it difficult to fully appreciate where they are coming from. In the olden days, and as tradition has it, practioners in the Zen tradition actually often left their teachers, or were sent away to other teachers to have the different levels of their 'enlightenment' verified, disputed, worked on etc. lest the student fools h/herself into truly believing they are fully enlightened while perhaps the finer points might still be missing.  As yet, we have no such kind of 'peer review' in the west relative to our enlightening experiences. So we all seem just have our own relative light to stand or fall by.  This may of course create some serious confusion for many  - and a ready breeding ground for illusion?
                             
                            Have a good weekend,
                            Moller de la Rouviere
                             
                             
                          • Jeff Belyea
                            ... have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross suffering has worked
                            Message 13 of 22 , May 6, 2005
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                              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "de la rouviere"
                              <mollerdlr@t...> wrote:
                              > Dear Jeff,
                              >
                              > May I come in here with some kind of observation.
                              >
                              > You said:
                              >
                              > >>Yes, we can. When the enquiry
                              > comes from a place of despair,
                              > degradation, shame and guilt,
                              > and the hope is for release
                              > from their grip,>> snip..
                              >
                              > Could it also be that this kind of suffering-based enquiry could
                              have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from
                              the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross
                              suffering has worked itself gradually out of the system there remains
                              the pure suffering of duality in its most delicate form yet to be
                              transcended?
                              >
                              > I guess what I am suggesting is that there is the totally untrimmed
                              tree to start with and all that is evident are forms of emotional,
                              psychological and mental disturbances. These no doubt form the bulk
                              of the conscious experience of separation at that level of
                              disorganization. However, there comes a time along the path of self-
                              enquiry where these things no longer distract the practitioner so
                              heavily from inner silence and some sense of freedom from
                              conditioning and shadow emotional stuff. This in itself brings a
                              lightness of being, but there is still the residual state of duality
                              present, which could easily again be drawn into mere reactivity and
                              mental distortion. Yet, at this stage, one is no longer driven by
                              the gross suffering of personal historical stuff. What is on the
                              table is just the mere sense of duality. It seems to me that only
                              when this has been recognized as suffering and ways have been found
                              to transcend this fundamental inclination towards mere separateness,
                              can the freedom of which you may be speaking reveal itself.
                              >
                              > Or perhaps we may be talking about different experiences
                              altogether?. It is really difficult to apprehend the very many
                              manifestations of freedom from where people nowadays speak. So many
                              claim freedom and enlightement. I often find it difficult to fully
                              appreciate where they are coming from. In the olden days, and as
                              tradition has it, practioners in the Zen tradition actually often
                              left their teachers, or were sent away to other teachers to have the
                              different levels of their 'enlightenment' verified, disputed, worked
                              on etc. lest the student fools h/herself into truly believing they
                              are fully enlightened while perhaps the finer points might still be
                              missing. As yet, we have no such kind of 'peer review' in the west
                              relative to our enlightening experiences. So we all seem just have
                              our own relative light to stand or fall by. This may of course
                              create some serious confusion for many - and a ready breeding ground
                              for illusion?
                              >
                              > Have a good weekend,
                              > Moller de la Rouviere
                              > www.spiritualhumanism.co.za

                              Thank you, Moller.

                              Of course, we can only
                              speak authentically
                              from our own direct
                              experience. And, yes,
                              this is a difficult
                              task - to communicate
                              our personal experience
                              clearly and completely.

                              The gradual working out
                              of the issues that were
                              the root causes of
                              suffering, either through
                              the grace of time or
                              with the help of a
                              therapeutic approach
                              is distinctly different
                              from the experience of
                              Enlightened Awakening, a
                              "stepping into perfection"
                              in which the startling
                              realization of "all is well"
                              presents itself, as if
                              beyond anything the mind
                              has previously thought
                              or imagined.

                              The latter mends the
                              illusion of separation
                              and sense of duality, and
                              leaves a residual sweetness
                              as an undercurrent of
                              day-to-day consciousness
                              (as Jody and Greg have
                              noted in recent posts)
                              that is above any and all
                              circumstances of life
                              events.

                              So many models attempt
                              to distinguish between
                              the therapeutic recovery
                              and the Enlightened, more
                              dramatic resolution of
                              suffering. And even these
                              have subsets. The savikalpa
                              and nirvikalpa, and then
                              sahaj samadhi, come to
                              mind.

                              The easing of suffering
                              through time erasure of
                              the sting, the temporary
                              Enlightenment of savikalpa
                              samadhi, and the seemingly
                              permanent shift of awareness
                              and Awakening to the
                              "Ture Self" of nirvikalpa
                              samadhi are neat distinctions,
                              but as you've written,
                              can cause a lot of confusion
                              and maybe even delusion.

                              Additionally, those who
                              feel compelled, or as
                              Bruce Morgen writes, are
                              "choicelessly obligated"
                              to share the good news
                              of Enlightenment, seem
                              to innocenlty over-promise
                              the availability of this
                              New Wisdom, Understanding,
                              Experiential Knowledge.

                              The Big Guys of Gurudom,
                              and the relatively unknown
                              Awakened Teachers, seem
                              to all offer a model or
                              point to a path that they
                              walked, with the expectation
                              that a similar walk will
                              produce a similar result.

                              As Bruce and Jeff Brooks
                              have written; if this
                              were so, we would have
                              millions instead of
                              hundreds of Awakened
                              Ones, Buddhas, Christs,
                              Krisnas, on earth now.

                              As for the much-hunted
                              deluded gurus, it seems
                              that this is a much-overblown
                              hunt. It is unimaginable
                              that anyone would step up
                              to the role without the
                              experiential knowledge -
                              for some power trip or
                              monetary reward. That
                              hunt is left for others.

                              Those who fire verbal
                              bombast at any talk or
                              writing of Enlightenment
                              are the more discouraging
                              and disparaging game in
                              my crosshairs.

                              Peace,

                              Jeff
                            • Jeff Belyea
                              ... Hi Jody - Thanks. The dissolving of the idea of me is one of those subtle and difficult to describe aspects of Awakening that has the rational mind hear
                              Message 14 of 22 , May 9, 2005
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                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                                > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                                >
                                > [snip]
                                >
                                > > To those, like Jody, for
                                > > whom it was more of an
                                > > "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
                                > > and life goes on, there
                                > > are typically no jimmies,
                                > > no cherries, but a sweetness
                                > > nevertheless. Even Greg
                                > > uses the words "sweetness
                                > > and light" in his report.
                                > >
                                > > (Sorry, Michael.)
                                > >
                                > > Sweet as ever,
                                > >
                                > > Jeff
                                >
                                > Actually, the "seeing" of "it" was accompanied
                                > by the simultaneous dissolving of the "idea of
                                > me" as Ramakrishna terms it. Watching that me
                                > dissolve was almost a shock, but it happened so
                                > quickly that there wasn't time for a reaction.
                                >
                                > This isn't to say I don't have a sense of "me,"
                                > just that its hold on identity was shattered, and
                                > has remained so ever since.
                                >
                                > I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
                                > although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
                                > before it all went down.
                                >
                                > --jody.


                                Hi Jody -

                                Thanks.

                                The dissolving of the "idea
                                of me" is one of those subtle
                                and difficult to describe
                                aspects of Awakening that
                                has the rational mind hear
                                a metal-pipe clang.

                                That shift out of the personal
                                sense of "ego" to just "being"
                                brings the sweet relief from
                                taking anything personally, and
                                it not only allows for continuity
                                of the fiery asshole persona...
                                it transforms one predisposed
                                to being a fiery asshole
                                into a fearless fiery asshole;
                                taming the lions of fear and
                                doubt and replacing those with
                                a hot and sweet pepper undercurrent.

                                Love, as always,

                                Jeff
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