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Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: TRANSMISSION

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  • Reynold Wingate
    Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who wanted to become disciples. He believed the spiritual path o each individual is different. A guru can only give
    Message 1 of 22 , May 3, 2005
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      Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who wanted
      to become disciples. He believed the spiritual path o
      each individual is different. A guru can only give
      general tips to grow spiritually based on his own
      personal experience. It may not necessarily work for
      his disciples.

      I believe a guru is not an absolute necessity for
      spiritual growth. If you have the desire deep in you,
      you will stumble into the truth some day.

      --- jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:

      ---------------------------------
      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
      jasonjamesmorgan
      <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > Hello, hello,
      >
      > Put two glasses of water side by side, and the
      temperatures even
      > out. This is called resonance. If you want to
      defute transmition,
      > go to the local university, and prove the world
      wrong.

      The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
      physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.

      Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
      despite what superstitious folk want to believe
      about their gurus.

      The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
      a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.

      What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
      the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
      the Self in their awareness. It's not something
      you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
      suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
      can make the connection for you, but you've got to
      see it alone, completely outside any mythological
      beliefs anyone has about gurus.





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    • Bruce Morgen
      ... Well, he tried to do it -- unfortunately, after he died he became the nexus of YAPBC (Yet Another Posthumous Bhakti Cult). ... That s a fact, no belief is
      Message 2 of 22 , May 3, 2005
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        Reynold Wingate wrote:

        >Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who wanted
        >to become disciples.
        >
        Well, he tried to do it --
        unfortunately, after he
        died he became the nexus
        of YAPBC (Yet Another
        Posthumous Bhakti Cult).

        >He believed the spiritual path o
        >each individual is different.
        >
        That's a fact, no belief
        is required.

        >A guru can only give
        >general tips to grow spiritually based on his own
        >personal experience.
        >
        Yes, just as pointing at
        the moon isn't that same
        as being able to grab it
        and hand it over. ;-)

        >It may not necessarily work for
        >his disciples.
        >
        >
        Clearly, otherwise such
        "disciples" would themselves
        uniformly be realized.
        There's obviously no
        universal recipe for that.

        >I believe a guru is not an absolute necessity for
        >spiritual growth. If you have the desire deep in you,
        >you will stumble into the truth some day.
        >
        >
        As Jodyji himself has put it,
        the only actual prerequisite
        is sincerity. This brings
        energy and determination --
        but also an awareness that
        "the desire deep within you"
        may in fact be nothing more
        or other than garden variety
        ambition, abeit clothed in
        "spear-chill" raiment!

        Can we be both sincere and
        indefatigable in our enquiry
        without hope of status and
        attainment? Isn't that the
        subtly elusive "purity" that
        is so often spoken of among
        seekers, the surrendered
        attitude expressed by "Not
        my will, but thine" and the
        very essence of both honest
        enquiry and authentic
        meditation?


        >--- jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
        >
        >---------------------------------
        >--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
        >jasonjamesmorgan
        ><no_reply@y...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >>Hello, hello,
        >>
        >>Put two glasses of water side by side, and the
        >>
        >>
        >temperatures even
        >
        >
        >>out. This is called resonance. If you want to
        >>
        >>
        >defute transmition,
        >
        >
        >>go to the local university, and prove the world
        >>
        >>
        >wrong.
        >
        >The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
        >physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
        >
        >Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
        >despite what superstitious folk want to believe
        >about their gurus.
        >
        >The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
        >a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
        >
        >What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
        >the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
        >the Self in their awareness. It's not something
        >you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
        >suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
        >can make the connection for you, but you've got to
        >see it alone, completely outside any mythological
        >beliefs anyone has about gurus.
        >
        >
      • jodyrrr
        ... Absolutely. One s sincerity can carry them as far if not farther than any mommy or daddy surrogate one is sucked up to. While it s definitely helpful and
        Message 3 of 22 , May 3, 2005
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Reynold Wingate
          <reystar99@y...> wrote:
          > Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who wanted
          > to become disciples. He believed the spiritual path o
          > each individual is different. A guru can only give
          > general tips to grow spiritually based on his own
          > personal experience. It may not necessarily work for
          > his disciples.
          >
          > I believe a guru is not an absolute necessity for
          > spiritual growth. If you have the desire deep in you,
          > you will stumble into the truth some day.

          Absolutely. One's sincerity can carry them as
          far if not farther than any mommy or daddy surrogate
          one is sucked up to.

          While it's definitely helpful and a blessing to have a
          real guru instead of one of these nonsense transmitters,
          the inner guru takes precedent every time.
        • Greg Goode
          Hey Bruceji, That s a cool one, YAPBC. I just might use it, with full attribution, of course! --Greg
          Message 4 of 22 , May 3, 2005
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            Hey Bruceji,

             

            That’s a cool one, YAPBC.

            I just might use it, with full

            attribution, of course!

             

            --Greg

          • jasonjamesmorgan
            ... Well, well, Your a bit father off than I originally thought. I see you are still doing your sadhana to the end of savikalpa samadhi. For if you were
            Message 5 of 22 , May 3, 2005
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              >
              > The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
              > physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
              >
              > Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
              > despite what superstitious folk want to believe
              > about their gurus.
              >
              > The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
              > a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
              >
              > What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
              > the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
              > the Self in their awareness. It's not something
              > you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
              > suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
              > can make the connection for you, but you've got to
              > see it alone, completely outside any mythological
              > beliefs anyone has about gurus.

              Well, well,

              Your a bit father off than I originally thought. I see you are still
              doing your sadhana to the end of savikalpa samadhi. For if you were
              realized, you would know that duality is obvious and apparent and
              GOD. You have not realized, as you denie one side of the coin.

              A person can send prana to wherever, whenever they choose.

              So sad, so close, but to stubborn in his sadhana to drop the concept
              of no concepts.

              I grow bored of this. Maybe I will be back next year. My compassion
              might bring forth a thought or two for you. Ta Ta.

              Namaste
              Om Namah Shivaya
            • Reynold Wingate
              Can you please rephrase the last two paragraphs? I have read somewhere that when high-sounding words are abundant in writing, that s a sign the writer is not
              Message 6 of 22 , May 3, 2005
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                Can you please rephrase the last two paragraphs? I
                have read somewhere that when high-sounding words are
                abundant in writing, that's a sign the writer is not
                very sure of what he is talking about. Good writing on
                spirituality should be simple and easy to understand.
                I am lost in the last two paragraphs you wrote. Sorry!

                Reynold
                --- Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:

                ---------------------------------
                Reynold Wingate wrote:

                >Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who
                wanted
                >to become disciples.
                >
                Well, he tried to do it --
                unfortunately, after he
                died he became the nexus
                of YAPBC (Yet Another
                Posthumous Bhakti Cult).

                >He believed the spiritual path o
                >each individual is different.
                >
                That's a fact, no belief
                is required.

                >A guru can only give
                >general tips to grow spiritually based on his own
                >personal experience.
                >
                Yes, just as pointing at
                the moon isn't that same
                as being able to grab it
                and hand it over. ;-)

                >It may not necessarily work for
                >his disciples.
                >
                >
                Clearly, otherwise such
                "disciples" would themselves
                uniformly be realized.
                There's obviously no
                universal recipe for that.

                >I believe a guru is not an absolute necessity for
                >spiritual growth. If you have the desire deep in you,
                >you will stumble into the truth some day.
                >
                >
                As Jodyji himself has put it,
                the only actual prerequisite
                is sincerity. This brings
                energy and determination --
                but also an awareness that
                "the desire deep within you"
                may in fact be nothing more
                or other than garden variety
                ambition, abeit clothed in
                "spear-chill" raiment!

                Can we be both sincere and
                indefatigable in our enquiry
                without hope of status and
                attainment? Isn't that the
                subtly elusive "purity" that
                is so often spoken of among
                seekers, the surrendered
                attitude expressed by "Not
                my will, but thine" and the
                very essence of both honest
                enquiry and authentic
                meditation?


                >--- jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
                >
                >---------------------------------
                >--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                >jasonjamesmorgan
                ><no_reply@y...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >>Hello, hello,
                >>
                >>Put two glasses of water side by side, and the
                >>
                >>
                >temperatures even
                >
                >
                >>out. This is called resonance. If you want to
                >>
                >>
                >defute transmition,
                >
                >
                >>go to the local university, and prove the world
                >>
                >>
                >wrong.
                >
                >The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
                >physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
                >
                >Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
                >despite what superstitious folk want to believe
                >about their gurus.
                >
                >The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
                >a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
                >
                >What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
                >the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
                >the Self in their awareness. It's not something
                >you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
                >suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
                >can make the connection for you, but you've got to
                >see it alone, completely outside any mythological
                >beliefs anyone has about gurus.
                >
                >



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              • Bruce Morgen
                ... I could, but with all due respect, I ll decline that request at his time. ... An absurd contention imo, especially given that there is no consensus on what
                Message 7 of 22 , May 4, 2005
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                  Reynold Wingate wrote:

                  >Can you please rephrase the last two paragraphs?
                  >
                  I could, but with all due
                  respect, I'll decline that
                  request at his time.

                  >I
                  >have read somewhere that when high-sounding words are
                  >abundant in writing, that's a sign the writer is not
                  >very sure of what he is talking about.
                  >
                  An absurd contention imo,
                  especially given that
                  there is no consensus on
                  what "high-sounding"
                  means.

                  >Good writing on
                  >spirituality should be simple and easy to understand.
                  >
                  >
                  Well, that certainly puts
                  a good deal of what the
                  ancients wrote out of the
                  running, doesn't it?

                  >I am lost in the last two paragraphs you wrote. Sorry!
                  >
                  >
                  Me too -- but there it is.
                  Are you sure you're not
                  being a bit lazy in your
                  approach? I can see only
                  one or two words in those
                  paragraphs that are all
                  that uncommon, and the
                  sentences parse pretty
                  easily. The gists of both
                  are quite simple and I'd be
                  glad to discuss whatever
                  specifics are eluding you.

                  Thank you for your interest!

                  >Reynold
                  >--- Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >---------------------------------
                  >Reynold Wingate wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >>Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who
                  >>
                  >>
                  >wanted
                  >
                  >
                  >>to become disciples.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >Well, he tried to do it --
                  >unfortunately, after he
                  >died he became the nexus
                  >of YAPBC (Yet Another
                  >Posthumous Bhakti Cult).
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >>He believed the spiritual path o
                  >>each individual is different.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >That's a fact, no belief
                  >is required.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >>A guru can only give
                  >>general tips to grow spiritually based on his own
                  >>personal experience.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >Yes, just as pointing at
                  >the moon isn't that same
                  >as being able to grab it
                  >and hand it over. ;-)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >>It may not necessarily work for
                  >>his disciples.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >Clearly, otherwise such
                  >"disciples" would themselves
                  >uniformly be realized.
                  >There's obviously no
                  >universal recipe for that.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >>I believe a guru is not an absolute necessity for
                  >>spiritual growth. If you have the desire deep in you,
                  >>you will stumble into the truth some day.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >As Jodyji himself has put it,
                  >the only actual prerequisite
                  >is sincerity. This brings
                  >energy and determination --
                  >but also an awareness that
                  >"the desire deep within you"
                  >may in fact be nothing more
                  >or other than garden variety
                  >ambition, abeit clothed in
                  >"spear-chill" raiment!
                  >
                  >Can we be both sincere and
                  >indefatigable in our enquiry
                  >without hope of status and
                  >attainment? Isn't that the
                  >subtly elusive "purity" that
                  >is so often spoken of among
                  >seekers, the surrendered
                  >attitude expressed by "Not
                  >my will, but thine" and the
                  >very essence of both honest
                  >enquiry and authentic
                  >meditation?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >>--- jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >>---------------------------------
                  >>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                  >>jasonjamesmorgan
                  >><no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>>Hello, hello,
                  >>>
                  >>>Put two glasses of water side by side, and the
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>temperatures even
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>>out. This is called resonance. If you want to
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>defute transmition,
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>>go to the local university, and prove the world
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>wrong.
                  >>
                  >>The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
                  >>physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
                  >>
                  >>Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
                  >>despite what superstitious folk want to believe
                  >>about their gurus.
                  >>
                  >>The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
                  >>a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
                  >>
                  >>What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
                  >>the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
                  >>the Self in their awareness. It's not something
                  >>you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
                  >>suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
                  >>can make the connection for you, but you've got to
                  >>see it alone, completely outside any mythological
                  >>beliefs anyone has about gurus.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                • jodyrrr
                  ... But the obviousness of duality does not include the reality of the magical nonsense which exists in spiritual culture, the nonsense you are taking for
                  Message 8 of 22 , May 4, 2005
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                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, jasonjamesmorgan
                    <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > > The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
                    > > physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
                    > >
                    > > Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
                    > > despite what superstitious folk want to believe
                    > > about their gurus.
                    > >
                    > > The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
                    > > a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
                    > >
                    > > What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
                    > > the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
                    > > the Self in their awareness. It's not something
                    > > you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
                    > > suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
                    > > can make the connection for you, but you've got to
                    > > see it alone, completely outside any mythological
                    > > beliefs anyone has about gurus.
                    >
                    > Well, well,
                    >
                    > Your a bit father off than I originally thought. I see you are still
                    > doing your sadhana to the end of savikalpa samadhi. For if you were
                    > realized, you would know that duality is obvious and apparent and
                    > GOD. You have not realized, as you denie one side of the coin.

                    But the obviousness of duality does not include the reality
                    of the magical nonsense which exists in spiritual culture,
                    the nonsense you are taking for fact. The nonsense which
                    chokes the life out of realization like algae in a pond.

                    > A person can send prana to wherever, whenever they choose.

                    Sure, as a intellectual conceit or in a dream.

                    > So sad, so close, but to stubborn in his sadhana to drop the concept
                    > of no concepts.

                    The same is said of you, unable to see the truth that sits
                    on the end of your nose.

                    > I grow bored of this. Maybe I will be back next year. My compassion
                    > might bring forth a thought or two for you. Ta Ta.
                    >
                    > Namaste
                    > Om Namah Shivaya

                    How generous. Don't let the door hit you in
                    the ass.
                  • Jeff Belyea
                    ... Yes, we can. When the enquiry comes from a place of despair, degradation, shame and guilt, and the hope is for release from their grip, neither purity nor
                    Message 9 of 22 , May 5, 2005
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                      > Can we be both sincere and
                      > indefatigable in our enquiry
                      > without hope of status and
                      > attainment?

                      Yes, we can. When the enquiry
                      comes from a place of despair,
                      degradation, shame and guilt,
                      and the hope is for release
                      from their grip, neither purity
                      nor status nor attainment are
                      the foci - unless you are
                      going to quibble that attainment
                      of peace of mind is to be
                      counted among "attainments".
                      It is gift. The fact that
                      IT grants purity does not
                      count, either. The POM and
                      purity are totally Jackerjacks'
                      surprises. (Just a little
                      anticipatory fencing
                      before the touche).

                      The awakening in this context
                      is a startling and unexpected
                      helping of jimmies, a cherry
                      on top, a...lot of sweetness,
                      and frequently gives birth to
                      a Bhakti Yogi - a gratitude
                      attitude for the double scoop.

                      The fact that reports of
                      this unique solution are
                      often couched in spiritual
                      terms may be the result of
                      a family tradition or a
                      cultural prime coat.

                      Some will hear the reports
                      of spiritual enlightenment
                      as ego aggrandizement and
                      attempts to attain status
                      or imply some attainment
                      of a lofty estate. But the
                      Bhakti Yogi has no such
                      interests.

                      To those, like Jodi, for
                      whom it was more of an
                      "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
                      and life goes on, there
                      are typically no jimmies,
                      no cherries, but a sweetness
                      nevertheless. Even Greg
                      uses the words "sweetness
                      and light" in his report.

                      (Sorry, Michael.)

                      Sweet as ever,

                      Jeff
                    • Greg Goode
                      ... ===These are good points. Sincerely and singlemindedly trying to end one s suffering is not the same as going for the status of having attained a goal.
                      Message 10 of 22 , May 5, 2005
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                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                        <jeff@m...> wrote:
                        > > Can we be both sincere and
                        > > indefatigable in our enquiry
                        > > without hope of status and
                        > > attainment?
                        >
                        > Yes, we can. When the enquiry
                        > comes from a place of despair,
                        > degradation, shame and guilt,
                        > and the hope is for release
                        > from their grip, neither purity
                        > nor status nor attainment are
                        > the foci.

                        ...

                        > Even Greg uses the words "sweetness
                        > and light" in his report.

                        ===These are good points. Sincerely and singlemindedly trying to end
                        one's suffering is not the same as going for the status of having
                        attained a goal. When in the middle of great suffering, a person
                        would gladly trade all chances of lofty attainment for the relief
                        from suffering.

                        I remember one AIDS activist mentioning that he visited some AIDS
                        patients in the hospital. They said something that really made an
                        impression on him. They told him that sure, they remembered the
                        feverishly strong sexual compulsion they felt when they had sex all
                        those times - unprotected. There's a sort of divine madness that
                        takes over, seems like it will protect you. Now, they are
                        experiencing the aftermath. They all told the activist that they'd
                        gladly give away the sexual experiences they had, plus all hope of
                        *ever* having sex again, if they could only be free of the virus now.

                        In my case, I was intensely looking into the essence of my nature.
                        What made me ME? What makes anyone what they are, and not something
                        else? Where is my identity located? How is it carried? How is it
                        *my* identity? Although this was not a painful inquiry, it was a
                        constant one - yes, and it had a touch of sweet, light fascination.
                        I was really in the grips of it. My head was in the tiger's mouth.
                        I hadn't heard of any satsangs or spiritual groups doing this kind of
                        stuff. There was no association in my mind of a level, status or
                        endpoint to be reached. Because I had no acquaintances doing this
                        kind of thing, I really didn't have a socially constructed notion of
                        a kind of person to compare myself to, or "an after it is over." I
                        was doing it in kind of an open and unknowing way.

                        --Greg

                        P.S. Plus, meditation helped!
                      • jodyrrr
                        ... wrote: [snip] ... Actually, the seeing of it was accompanied by the simultaneous dissolving of the idea of me as Ramakrishna terms it.
                        Message 11 of 22 , May 5, 2005
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                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                          <jeff@m...> wrote:

                          [snip]

                          > To those, like Jodi, for
                          > whom it was more of an
                          > "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
                          > and life goes on, there
                          > are typically no jimmies,
                          > no cherries, but a sweetness
                          > nevertheless. Even Greg
                          > uses the words "sweetness
                          > and light" in his report.
                          >
                          > (Sorry, Michael.)
                          >
                          > Sweet as ever,
                          >
                          > Jeff

                          Actually, the "seeing" of "it" was accompanied
                          by the simultaneous dissolving of the "idea of
                          me" as Ramakrishna terms it. Watching that me
                          dissolve was almost a shock, but it happened so
                          quickly that there wasn't time for a reaction.

                          This isn't to say I don't have a sense of "me,"
                          just that its hold on identity was shattered, and
                          has remained so ever since.

                          I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
                          although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
                          before it all went down.

                          --jody.
                        • Greg Goode
                          ... ===Yeah, that s just it. Even aging, the deaths of parents, friends, terminal illnesses, my wife going to federal detention for an indeterminate period,
                          Message 12 of 22 , May 5, 2005
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                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                            <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:


                            > I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
                            > although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
                            > before it all went down.

                            ===Yeah, that's just it. Even aging, the deaths of parents, friends,
                            terminal illnesses, my wife going to federal detention for an
                            indeterminate period, not enough cash for her bail (no bail bonds
                            accepted for immigration stuff), $1200 phone bills, bleeding
                            rollerblading accidents, bike accidents, sprains -- all this isn't
                            separate from sweetness, space and light.

                            --Greg
                          • de la rouviere
                            Dear Jeff, May I come in here with some kind of observation. ... comes from a place of despair, degradation, shame and guilt, and the hope is for release from
                            Message 13 of 22 , May 6, 2005
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                              Dear Jeff,
                               
                              May I come in here with some kind of observation.
                               
                              You said:
                               
                               >>Yes, we can. When the enquiry
                              comes from a place of despair,
                              degradation, shame and guilt,
                              and the hope is for release
                              from their grip,>> snip..
                               
                              Could it also be that this kind of suffering-based enquiry could have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross suffering has worked itself gradually out of the system there remains the pure suffering of duality in its most delicate form yet to be transcended? 
                               
                              I guess what I am suggesting is that there is the totally untrimmed tree to start with and all that is evident are forms of emotional, psychological and mental disturbances.  These no doubt form the bulk of the conscious experience of separation at that level of disorganization.  However, there comes a time along the path of self-enquiry where these things no longer distract the practitioner so heavily from inner silence and some sense of freedom from conditioning and shadow emotional stuff.  This in itself brings a lightness of being, but there is still the residual state of duality present, which could easily again be drawn into mere reactivity and mental distortion.  Yet, at this stage, one is no longer driven by the gross suffering of personal historical stuff.  What is on the table is just the mere sense of duality.  It seems to me that only when this has been recognized as suffering and ways have been found to transcend this fundamental inclination towards mere separateness, can the freedom of which you may be speaking reveal itself.
                               
                              Or perhaps we may be talking about different experiences altogether?.  It is really difficult to apprehend the very many manifestations of freedom from where people nowadays speak.  So many claim freedom and enlightement.  I often find it difficult to fully appreciate where they are coming from. In the olden days, and as tradition has it, practioners in the Zen tradition actually often left their teachers, or were sent away to other teachers to have the different levels of their 'enlightenment' verified, disputed, worked on etc. lest the student fools h/herself into truly believing they are fully enlightened while perhaps the finer points might still be missing.  As yet, we have no such kind of 'peer review' in the west relative to our enlightening experiences. So we all seem just have our own relative light to stand or fall by.  This may of course create some serious confusion for many  - and a ready breeding ground for illusion?
                               
                              Have a good weekend,
                              Moller de la Rouviere
                               
                               
                            • Jeff Belyea
                              ... have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross suffering has worked
                              Message 14 of 22 , May 6, 2005
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                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "de la rouviere"
                                <mollerdlr@t...> wrote:
                                > Dear Jeff,
                                >
                                > May I come in here with some kind of observation.
                                >
                                > You said:
                                >
                                > >>Yes, we can. When the enquiry
                                > comes from a place of despair,
                                > degradation, shame and guilt,
                                > and the hope is for release
                                > from their grip,>> snip..
                                >
                                > Could it also be that this kind of suffering-based enquiry could
                                have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from
                                the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross
                                suffering has worked itself gradually out of the system there remains
                                the pure suffering of duality in its most delicate form yet to be
                                transcended?
                                >
                                > I guess what I am suggesting is that there is the totally untrimmed
                                tree to start with and all that is evident are forms of emotional,
                                psychological and mental disturbances. These no doubt form the bulk
                                of the conscious experience of separation at that level of
                                disorganization. However, there comes a time along the path of self-
                                enquiry where these things no longer distract the practitioner so
                                heavily from inner silence and some sense of freedom from
                                conditioning and shadow emotional stuff. This in itself brings a
                                lightness of being, but there is still the residual state of duality
                                present, which could easily again be drawn into mere reactivity and
                                mental distortion. Yet, at this stage, one is no longer driven by
                                the gross suffering of personal historical stuff. What is on the
                                table is just the mere sense of duality. It seems to me that only
                                when this has been recognized as suffering and ways have been found
                                to transcend this fundamental inclination towards mere separateness,
                                can the freedom of which you may be speaking reveal itself.
                                >
                                > Or perhaps we may be talking about different experiences
                                altogether?. It is really difficult to apprehend the very many
                                manifestations of freedom from where people nowadays speak. So many
                                claim freedom and enlightement. I often find it difficult to fully
                                appreciate where they are coming from. In the olden days, and as
                                tradition has it, practioners in the Zen tradition actually often
                                left their teachers, or were sent away to other teachers to have the
                                different levels of their 'enlightenment' verified, disputed, worked
                                on etc. lest the student fools h/herself into truly believing they
                                are fully enlightened while perhaps the finer points might still be
                                missing. As yet, we have no such kind of 'peer review' in the west
                                relative to our enlightening experiences. So we all seem just have
                                our own relative light to stand or fall by. This may of course
                                create some serious confusion for many - and a ready breeding ground
                                for illusion?
                                >
                                > Have a good weekend,
                                > Moller de la Rouviere
                                > www.spiritualhumanism.co.za

                                Thank you, Moller.

                                Of course, we can only
                                speak authentically
                                from our own direct
                                experience. And, yes,
                                this is a difficult
                                task - to communicate
                                our personal experience
                                clearly and completely.

                                The gradual working out
                                of the issues that were
                                the root causes of
                                suffering, either through
                                the grace of time or
                                with the help of a
                                therapeutic approach
                                is distinctly different
                                from the experience of
                                Enlightened Awakening, a
                                "stepping into perfection"
                                in which the startling
                                realization of "all is well"
                                presents itself, as if
                                beyond anything the mind
                                has previously thought
                                or imagined.

                                The latter mends the
                                illusion of separation
                                and sense of duality, and
                                leaves a residual sweetness
                                as an undercurrent of
                                day-to-day consciousness
                                (as Jody and Greg have
                                noted in recent posts)
                                that is above any and all
                                circumstances of life
                                events.

                                So many models attempt
                                to distinguish between
                                the therapeutic recovery
                                and the Enlightened, more
                                dramatic resolution of
                                suffering. And even these
                                have subsets. The savikalpa
                                and nirvikalpa, and then
                                sahaj samadhi, come to
                                mind.

                                The easing of suffering
                                through time erasure of
                                the sting, the temporary
                                Enlightenment of savikalpa
                                samadhi, and the seemingly
                                permanent shift of awareness
                                and Awakening to the
                                "Ture Self" of nirvikalpa
                                samadhi are neat distinctions,
                                but as you've written,
                                can cause a lot of confusion
                                and maybe even delusion.

                                Additionally, those who
                                feel compelled, or as
                                Bruce Morgen writes, are
                                "choicelessly obligated"
                                to share the good news
                                of Enlightenment, seem
                                to innocenlty over-promise
                                the availability of this
                                New Wisdom, Understanding,
                                Experiential Knowledge.

                                The Big Guys of Gurudom,
                                and the relatively unknown
                                Awakened Teachers, seem
                                to all offer a model or
                                point to a path that they
                                walked, with the expectation
                                that a similar walk will
                                produce a similar result.

                                As Bruce and Jeff Brooks
                                have written; if this
                                were so, we would have
                                millions instead of
                                hundreds of Awakened
                                Ones, Buddhas, Christs,
                                Krisnas, on earth now.

                                As for the much-hunted
                                deluded gurus, it seems
                                that this is a much-overblown
                                hunt. It is unimaginable
                                that anyone would step up
                                to the role without the
                                experiential knowledge -
                                for some power trip or
                                monetary reward. That
                                hunt is left for others.

                                Those who fire verbal
                                bombast at any talk or
                                writing of Enlightenment
                                are the more discouraging
                                and disparaging game in
                                my crosshairs.

                                Peace,

                                Jeff
                              • Jeff Belyea
                                ... Hi Jody - Thanks. The dissolving of the idea of me is one of those subtle and difficult to describe aspects of Awakening that has the rational mind hear
                                Message 15 of 22 , May 9, 2005
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                                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                  <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                  > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                                  > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > [snip]
                                  >
                                  > > To those, like Jody, for
                                  > > whom it was more of an
                                  > > "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
                                  > > and life goes on, there
                                  > > are typically no jimmies,
                                  > > no cherries, but a sweetness
                                  > > nevertheless. Even Greg
                                  > > uses the words "sweetness
                                  > > and light" in his report.
                                  > >
                                  > > (Sorry, Michael.)
                                  > >
                                  > > Sweet as ever,
                                  > >
                                  > > Jeff
                                  >
                                  > Actually, the "seeing" of "it" was accompanied
                                  > by the simultaneous dissolving of the "idea of
                                  > me" as Ramakrishna terms it. Watching that me
                                  > dissolve was almost a shock, but it happened so
                                  > quickly that there wasn't time for a reaction.
                                  >
                                  > This isn't to say I don't have a sense of "me,"
                                  > just that its hold on identity was shattered, and
                                  > has remained so ever since.
                                  >
                                  > I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
                                  > although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
                                  > before it all went down.
                                  >
                                  > --jody.


                                  Hi Jody -

                                  Thanks.

                                  The dissolving of the "idea
                                  of me" is one of those subtle
                                  and difficult to describe
                                  aspects of Awakening that
                                  has the rational mind hear
                                  a metal-pipe clang.

                                  That shift out of the personal
                                  sense of "ego" to just "being"
                                  brings the sweet relief from
                                  taking anything personally, and
                                  it not only allows for continuity
                                  of the fiery asshole persona...
                                  it transforms one predisposed
                                  to being a fiery asshole
                                  into a fearless fiery asshole;
                                  taming the lions of fear and
                                  doubt and replacing those with
                                  a hot and sweet pepper undercurrent.

                                  Love, as always,

                                  Jeff
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