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[Meditation Society of America] Re: TRANSMISSION

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  • jodyrrr
    ... And also tell him that lying about his abilities makes him nothing more than a criminal.
    Message 1 of 22 , May 2 11:10 AM
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      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Sandeep"
      <sandeep1960@y...> wrote:
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: subhash naik
      > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 11:27 AM
      > Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: TRANSMISSION
      >
      >
      > >
      > As per my Master --Prejudice is the greatest
      > evil,rather the deadliest poision for spiritual
      > life.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Tell your Master that to notice prejudice is the biggest prejudice.

      And also tell him that lying about his abilities
      makes him nothing more than a criminal.
    • jasonjamesmorgan
      Hello, hello, Put two glasses of water side by side, and the temperatures even out. This is called resonance. If you want to defute transmition, go to the
      Message 2 of 22 , May 2 2:41 PM
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        Hello, hello,

        Put two glasses of water side by side, and the temperatures even
        out. This is called resonance. If you want to defute transmition,
        go to the local university, and prove the world wrong.

        In the satsang, the guru is a glass of hot water, but he is stable at
        that temperature, sahaja. The disciples are glasses of water at
        vering degrees of temperature. They disciples will slowly be
        resonated to the temperature of the guru.

        Without using allegory, this is what happens.

        1.The gurus kundulini is at a high frequency, which causes the
        disciples frequency to rise. Hence so many kryas after satsang.

        2. The gurus mind is still, this slowly stops the minds of other.
        This is called teaching in the silence ie dakshinamurti. In the
        silence of the mind, the awareness is realized.

        3. The combined states of the disciples will alter the effect from
        the guru. In one on one satsang the effect is more powerfull and
        faster. In group it takes longer and is not as powerfull. It has to
        do with the gurus state, and if he takes matter into his own hands
        and forces the states of the people.

        Number 3 is like puting a hot glass of water beside several cold
        glasses. Provided the temp of the hot glass is stable, it will take
        longer to heat 3 glasses than 1.

        The gurus role is this. He has more experience and more knowledge
        than the average person. Like a doctor, the guru is doing this full
        time. You do not have to be a renuciate to be realized. In the
        gurus experience and knowledge, he sees the easiest path for the
        student, and thus if the student surrendors to the will of the guru,
        his liberation will happen sooner.

        Apong awakeing the mometum or parabdha of the student is what it was
        before. A householder will be a householder. A renunciate a
        renunciate.

        This is what Ramakrishna taught and realized. That is why he
        censored his teachings to some. There were a few books that he only
        let Vivikananda read, even over his other chosen disciples.

        So no more bad talk about gurus. Alot of gurus are money seeking,
        authoritarians. But not all. powers or siddhis are real, but
        I appluad your stance of disbelief, and condem your inability to
        realize them. You should take them as a working hipothesis untill
        such time as you prove them to yourself.

        A renunciate was a renunciate before his realization, and he will be
        one after.

        In the west, the traditional guru is not respected. That is because
        everyone believes in equal rights etc. Half truth, half truths my
        friends. Look around, is everyone equal? No of course not. However
        our true selfs are equal, our true natures. Half truths.

        In the tradition system the student goes to the master and argues
        till he is blue in the face. If the master can demostrate to the
        student his prowess, the student can then surrendor. The devotee
        knows that the experience of the guru and knowledge, is what is best
        for him. He know that guru is love manifest, and will lead the
        disciple up the easiest path. The disciple need not read the vedas
        to realize, need not go on pilgramiges to realize. But he might, and
        if that will help the devotee, that is where he is sent.

        So, argue and keep argueing untill you meet someone who blows you
        away. It is not nessecary to have a traditional guru, as the
        tradition is available at a few clicks of the mouse, but for those
        who will find one. Keep an open mind.

        And remember that gurus are running out their parabdha. And their
        parabdha might not be congruent with yours. Does that make him a
        fraud? of course not. Osho can kiss ass, but for others they would
        gladly kiss his. And why I dont listen to him, is that group
        masterbation, hippie , cars and riches arent my parabdha. But
        their are alot of rich dudes out their who had "fun" and this is
        their parabdha when they start their search. So even my annoying
        little friend osho has his role.

        Anyways, I got to go. Be back in a few days.
        Namaste
        Om Namah Shivaya
        Jason James Morgan



        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
        <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Sandeep"
        > <sandeep1960@y...> wrote:
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: subhash naik
        > > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 11:27 AM
        > > Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: TRANSMISSION
        > >
        > >
        > > >
        > > As per my Master --Prejudice is the greatest
        > > evil,rather the liest poision for spiritual
        > > life.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Tell your Master that to notice prejudice is the biggest
        prejudice.
        >
        > And also tell him that lying about his abilities
        > makes him nothing more than a criminal.
      • jodyrrr
        ... The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding. Everyone is the Self. Nobody is more the Self,
        Message 3 of 22 , May 2 11:28 PM
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, jasonjamesmorgan
          <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > Hello, hello,
          >
          > Put two glasses of water side by side, and the temperatures even
          > out. This is called resonance. If you want to defute transmition,
          > go to the local university, and prove the world wrong.

          The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
          physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.

          Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
          despite what superstitious folk want to believe
          about their gurus.

          The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
          a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.

          What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
          the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
          the Self in their awareness. It's not something
          you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
          suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
          can make the connection for you, but you've got to
          see it alone, completely outside any mythological
          beliefs anyone has about gurus.
        • Reynold Wingate
          Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who wanted to become disciples. He believed the spiritual path o each individual is different. A guru can only give
          Message 4 of 22 , May 3 3:49 AM
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            Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who wanted
            to become disciples. He believed the spiritual path o
            each individual is different. A guru can only give
            general tips to grow spiritually based on his own
            personal experience. It may not necessarily work for
            his disciples.

            I believe a guru is not an absolute necessity for
            spiritual growth. If you have the desire deep in you,
            you will stumble into the truth some day.

            --- jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:

            ---------------------------------
            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
            jasonjamesmorgan
            <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > Hello, hello,
            >
            > Put two glasses of water side by side, and the
            temperatures even
            > out. This is called resonance. If you want to
            defute transmition,
            > go to the local university, and prove the world
            wrong.

            The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
            physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.

            Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
            despite what superstitious folk want to believe
            about their gurus.

            The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
            a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.

            What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
            the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
            the Self in their awareness. It's not something
            you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
            suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
            can make the connection for you, but you've got to
            see it alone, completely outside any mythological
            beliefs anyone has about gurus.





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          • Bruce Morgen
            ... Well, he tried to do it -- unfortunately, after he died he became the nexus of YAPBC (Yet Another Posthumous Bhakti Cult). ... That s a fact, no belief is
            Message 5 of 22 , May 3 8:39 AM
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              Reynold Wingate wrote:

              >Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who wanted
              >to become disciples.
              >
              Well, he tried to do it --
              unfortunately, after he
              died he became the nexus
              of YAPBC (Yet Another
              Posthumous Bhakti Cult).

              >He believed the spiritual path o
              >each individual is different.
              >
              That's a fact, no belief
              is required.

              >A guru can only give
              >general tips to grow spiritually based on his own
              >personal experience.
              >
              Yes, just as pointing at
              the moon isn't that same
              as being able to grab it
              and hand it over. ;-)

              >It may not necessarily work for
              >his disciples.
              >
              >
              Clearly, otherwise such
              "disciples" would themselves
              uniformly be realized.
              There's obviously no
              universal recipe for that.

              >I believe a guru is not an absolute necessity for
              >spiritual growth. If you have the desire deep in you,
              >you will stumble into the truth some day.
              >
              >
              As Jodyji himself has put it,
              the only actual prerequisite
              is sincerity. This brings
              energy and determination --
              but also an awareness that
              "the desire deep within you"
              may in fact be nothing more
              or other than garden variety
              ambition, abeit clothed in
              "spear-chill" raiment!

              Can we be both sincere and
              indefatigable in our enquiry
              without hope of status and
              attainment? Isn't that the
              subtly elusive "purity" that
              is so often spoken of among
              seekers, the surrendered
              attitude expressed by "Not
              my will, but thine" and the
              very essence of both honest
              enquiry and authentic
              meditation?


              >--- jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
              >
              >---------------------------------
              >--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
              >jasonjamesmorgan
              ><no_reply@y...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >>Hello, hello,
              >>
              >>Put two glasses of water side by side, and the
              >>
              >>
              >temperatures even
              >
              >
              >>out. This is called resonance. If you want to
              >>
              >>
              >defute transmition,
              >
              >
              >>go to the local university, and prove the world
              >>
              >>
              >wrong.
              >
              >The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
              >physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
              >
              >Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
              >despite what superstitious folk want to believe
              >about their gurus.
              >
              >The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
              >a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
              >
              >What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
              >the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
              >the Self in their awareness. It's not something
              >you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
              >suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
              >can make the connection for you, but you've got to
              >see it alone, completely outside any mythological
              >beliefs anyone has about gurus.
              >
              >
            • jodyrrr
              ... Absolutely. One s sincerity can carry them as far if not farther than any mommy or daddy surrogate one is sucked up to. While it s definitely helpful and
              Message 6 of 22 , May 3 8:40 AM
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                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Reynold Wingate
                <reystar99@y...> wrote:
                > Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who wanted
                > to become disciples. He believed the spiritual path o
                > each individual is different. A guru can only give
                > general tips to grow spiritually based on his own
                > personal experience. It may not necessarily work for
                > his disciples.
                >
                > I believe a guru is not an absolute necessity for
                > spiritual growth. If you have the desire deep in you,
                > you will stumble into the truth some day.

                Absolutely. One's sincerity can carry them as
                far if not farther than any mommy or daddy surrogate
                one is sucked up to.

                While it's definitely helpful and a blessing to have a
                real guru instead of one of these nonsense transmitters,
                the inner guru takes precedent every time.
              • Greg Goode
                Hey Bruceji, That s a cool one, YAPBC. I just might use it, with full attribution, of course! --Greg
                Message 7 of 22 , May 3 8:49 AM
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                  Hey Bruceji,

                   

                  That’s a cool one, YAPBC.

                  I just might use it, with full

                  attribution, of course!

                   

                  --Greg

                • jasonjamesmorgan
                  ... Well, well, Your a bit father off than I originally thought. I see you are still doing your sadhana to the end of savikalpa samadhi. For if you were
                  Message 8 of 22 , May 3 6:11 PM
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                    >
                    > The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
                    > physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
                    >
                    > Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
                    > despite what superstitious folk want to believe
                    > about their gurus.
                    >
                    > The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
                    > a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
                    >
                    > What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
                    > the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
                    > the Self in their awareness. It's not something
                    > you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
                    > suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
                    > can make the connection for you, but you've got to
                    > see it alone, completely outside any mythological
                    > beliefs anyone has about gurus.

                    Well, well,

                    Your a bit father off than I originally thought. I see you are still
                    doing your sadhana to the end of savikalpa samadhi. For if you were
                    realized, you would know that duality is obvious and apparent and
                    GOD. You have not realized, as you denie one side of the coin.

                    A person can send prana to wherever, whenever they choose.

                    So sad, so close, but to stubborn in his sadhana to drop the concept
                    of no concepts.

                    I grow bored of this. Maybe I will be back next year. My compassion
                    might bring forth a thought or two for you. Ta Ta.

                    Namaste
                    Om Namah Shivaya
                  • Reynold Wingate
                    Can you please rephrase the last two paragraphs? I have read somewhere that when high-sounding words are abundant in writing, that s a sign the writer is not
                    Message 9 of 22 , May 3 8:49 PM
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                      Can you please rephrase the last two paragraphs? I
                      have read somewhere that when high-sounding words are
                      abundant in writing, that's a sign the writer is not
                      very sure of what he is talking about. Good writing on
                      spirituality should be simple and easy to understand.
                      I am lost in the last two paragraphs you wrote. Sorry!

                      Reynold
                      --- Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:

                      ---------------------------------
                      Reynold Wingate wrote:

                      >Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who
                      wanted
                      >to become disciples.
                      >
                      Well, he tried to do it --
                      unfortunately, after he
                      died he became the nexus
                      of YAPBC (Yet Another
                      Posthumous Bhakti Cult).

                      >He believed the spiritual path o
                      >each individual is different.
                      >
                      That's a fact, no belief
                      is required.

                      >A guru can only give
                      >general tips to grow spiritually based on his own
                      >personal experience.
                      >
                      Yes, just as pointing at
                      the moon isn't that same
                      as being able to grab it
                      and hand it over. ;-)

                      >It may not necessarily work for
                      >his disciples.
                      >
                      >
                      Clearly, otherwise such
                      "disciples" would themselves
                      uniformly be realized.
                      There's obviously no
                      universal recipe for that.

                      >I believe a guru is not an absolute necessity for
                      >spiritual growth. If you have the desire deep in you,
                      >you will stumble into the truth some day.
                      >
                      >
                      As Jodyji himself has put it,
                      the only actual prerequisite
                      is sincerity. This brings
                      energy and determination --
                      but also an awareness that
                      "the desire deep within you"
                      may in fact be nothing more
                      or other than garden variety
                      ambition, abeit clothed in
                      "spear-chill" raiment!

                      Can we be both sincere and
                      indefatigable in our enquiry
                      without hope of status and
                      attainment? Isn't that the
                      subtly elusive "purity" that
                      is so often spoken of among
                      seekers, the surrendered
                      attitude expressed by "Not
                      my will, but thine" and the
                      very essence of both honest
                      enquiry and authentic
                      meditation?


                      >--- jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >---------------------------------
                      >--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                      >jasonjamesmorgan
                      ><no_reply@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >>Hello, hello,
                      >>
                      >>Put two glasses of water side by side, and the
                      >>
                      >>
                      >temperatures even
                      >
                      >
                      >>out. This is called resonance. If you want to
                      >>
                      >>
                      >defute transmition,
                      >
                      >
                      >>go to the local university, and prove the world
                      >>
                      >>
                      >wrong.
                      >
                      >The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
                      >physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
                      >
                      >Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
                      >despite what superstitious folk want to believe
                      >about their gurus.
                      >
                      >The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
                      >a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
                      >
                      >What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
                      >the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
                      >the Self in their awareness. It's not something
                      >you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
                      >suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
                      >can make the connection for you, but you've got to
                      >see it alone, completely outside any mythological
                      >beliefs anyone has about gurus.
                      >
                      >



                      ---------------------------------
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                    • Bruce Morgen
                      ... I could, but with all due respect, I ll decline that request at his time. ... An absurd contention imo, especially given that there is no consensus on what
                      Message 10 of 22 , May 4 7:16 AM
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                        Reynold Wingate wrote:

                        >Can you please rephrase the last two paragraphs?
                        >
                        I could, but with all due
                        respect, I'll decline that
                        request at his time.

                        >I
                        >have read somewhere that when high-sounding words are
                        >abundant in writing, that's a sign the writer is not
                        >very sure of what he is talking about.
                        >
                        An absurd contention imo,
                        especially given that
                        there is no consensus on
                        what "high-sounding"
                        means.

                        >Good writing on
                        >spirituality should be simple and easy to understand.
                        >
                        >
                        Well, that certainly puts
                        a good deal of what the
                        ancients wrote out of the
                        running, doesn't it?

                        >I am lost in the last two paragraphs you wrote. Sorry!
                        >
                        >
                        Me too -- but there it is.
                        Are you sure you're not
                        being a bit lazy in your
                        approach? I can see only
                        one or two words in those
                        paragraphs that are all
                        that uncommon, and the
                        sentences parse pretty
                        easily. The gists of both
                        are quite simple and I'd be
                        glad to discuss whatever
                        specifics are eluding you.

                        Thank you for your interest!

                        >Reynold
                        >--- Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >---------------------------------
                        >Reynold Wingate wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >>Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who
                        >>
                        >>
                        >wanted
                        >
                        >
                        >>to become disciples.
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >Well, he tried to do it --
                        >unfortunately, after he
                        >died he became the nexus
                        >of YAPBC (Yet Another
                        >Posthumous Bhakti Cult).
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >>He believed the spiritual path o
                        >>each individual is different.
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >That's a fact, no belief
                        >is required.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >>A guru can only give
                        >>general tips to grow spiritually based on his own
                        >>personal experience.
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >Yes, just as pointing at
                        >the moon isn't that same
                        >as being able to grab it
                        >and hand it over. ;-)
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >>It may not necessarily work for
                        >>his disciples.
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >Clearly, otherwise such
                        >"disciples" would themselves
                        >uniformly be realized.
                        >There's obviously no
                        >universal recipe for that.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >>I believe a guru is not an absolute necessity for
                        >>spiritual growth. If you have the desire deep in you,
                        >>you will stumble into the truth some day.
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >As Jodyji himself has put it,
                        >the only actual prerequisite
                        >is sincerity. This brings
                        >energy and determination --
                        >but also an awareness that
                        >"the desire deep within you"
                        >may in fact be nothing more
                        >or other than garden variety
                        >ambition, abeit clothed in
                        >"spear-chill" raiment!
                        >
                        >Can we be both sincere and
                        >indefatigable in our enquiry
                        >without hope of status and
                        >attainment? Isn't that the
                        >subtly elusive "purity" that
                        >is so often spoken of among
                        >seekers, the surrendered
                        >attitude expressed by "Not
                        >my will, but thine" and the
                        >very essence of both honest
                        >enquiry and authentic
                        >meditation?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >>--- jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
                        >>
                        >>---------------------------------
                        >>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                        >>jasonjamesmorgan
                        >><no_reply@y...> wrote:
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>>Hello, hello,
                        >>>
                        >>>Put two glasses of water side by side, and the
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>temperatures even
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>>out. This is called resonance. If you want to
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>defute transmition,
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>>go to the local university, and prove the world
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>wrong.
                        >>
                        >>The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
                        >>physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
                        >>
                        >>Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
                        >>despite what superstitious folk want to believe
                        >>about their gurus.
                        >>
                        >>The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
                        >>a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
                        >>
                        >>What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
                        >>the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
                        >>the Self in their awareness. It's not something
                        >>you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
                        >>suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
                        >>can make the connection for you, but you've got to
                        >>see it alone, completely outside any mythological
                        >>beliefs anyone has about gurus.
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                      • jodyrrr
                        ... But the obviousness of duality does not include the reality of the magical nonsense which exists in spiritual culture, the nonsense you are taking for
                        Message 11 of 22 , May 4 8:57 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, jasonjamesmorgan
                          <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          > > The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
                          > > physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
                          > >
                          > > Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
                          > > despite what superstitious folk want to believe
                          > > about their gurus.
                          > >
                          > > The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
                          > > a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
                          > >
                          > > What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
                          > > the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
                          > > the Self in their awareness. It's not something
                          > > you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
                          > > suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
                          > > can make the connection for you, but you've got to
                          > > see it alone, completely outside any mythological
                          > > beliefs anyone has about gurus.
                          >
                          > Well, well,
                          >
                          > Your a bit father off than I originally thought. I see you are still
                          > doing your sadhana to the end of savikalpa samadhi. For if you were
                          > realized, you would know that duality is obvious and apparent and
                          > GOD. You have not realized, as you denie one side of the coin.

                          But the obviousness of duality does not include the reality
                          of the magical nonsense which exists in spiritual culture,
                          the nonsense you are taking for fact. The nonsense which
                          chokes the life out of realization like algae in a pond.

                          > A person can send prana to wherever, whenever they choose.

                          Sure, as a intellectual conceit or in a dream.

                          > So sad, so close, but to stubborn in his sadhana to drop the concept
                          > of no concepts.

                          The same is said of you, unable to see the truth that sits
                          on the end of your nose.

                          > I grow bored of this. Maybe I will be back next year. My compassion
                          > might bring forth a thought or two for you. Ta Ta.
                          >
                          > Namaste
                          > Om Namah Shivaya

                          How generous. Don't let the door hit you in
                          the ass.
                        • Jeff Belyea
                          ... Yes, we can. When the enquiry comes from a place of despair, degradation, shame and guilt, and the hope is for release from their grip, neither purity nor
                          Message 12 of 22 , May 5 11:55 AM
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                            > Can we be both sincere and
                            > indefatigable in our enquiry
                            > without hope of status and
                            > attainment?

                            Yes, we can. When the enquiry
                            comes from a place of despair,
                            degradation, shame and guilt,
                            and the hope is for release
                            from their grip, neither purity
                            nor status nor attainment are
                            the foci - unless you are
                            going to quibble that attainment
                            of peace of mind is to be
                            counted among "attainments".
                            It is gift. The fact that
                            IT grants purity does not
                            count, either. The POM and
                            purity are totally Jackerjacks'
                            surprises. (Just a little
                            anticipatory fencing
                            before the touche).

                            The awakening in this context
                            is a startling and unexpected
                            helping of jimmies, a cherry
                            on top, a...lot of sweetness,
                            and frequently gives birth to
                            a Bhakti Yogi - a gratitude
                            attitude for the double scoop.

                            The fact that reports of
                            this unique solution are
                            often couched in spiritual
                            terms may be the result of
                            a family tradition or a
                            cultural prime coat.

                            Some will hear the reports
                            of spiritual enlightenment
                            as ego aggrandizement and
                            attempts to attain status
                            or imply some attainment
                            of a lofty estate. But the
                            Bhakti Yogi has no such
                            interests.

                            To those, like Jodi, for
                            whom it was more of an
                            "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
                            and life goes on, there
                            are typically no jimmies,
                            no cherries, but a sweetness
                            nevertheless. Even Greg
                            uses the words "sweetness
                            and light" in his report.

                            (Sorry, Michael.)

                            Sweet as ever,

                            Jeff
                          • Greg Goode
                            ... ===These are good points. Sincerely and singlemindedly trying to end one s suffering is not the same as going for the status of having attained a goal.
                            Message 13 of 22 , May 5 12:14 PM
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                              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                              <jeff@m...> wrote:
                              > > Can we be both sincere and
                              > > indefatigable in our enquiry
                              > > without hope of status and
                              > > attainment?
                              >
                              > Yes, we can. When the enquiry
                              > comes from a place of despair,
                              > degradation, shame and guilt,
                              > and the hope is for release
                              > from their grip, neither purity
                              > nor status nor attainment are
                              > the foci.

                              ...

                              > Even Greg uses the words "sweetness
                              > and light" in his report.

                              ===These are good points. Sincerely and singlemindedly trying to end
                              one's suffering is not the same as going for the status of having
                              attained a goal. When in the middle of great suffering, a person
                              would gladly trade all chances of lofty attainment for the relief
                              from suffering.

                              I remember one AIDS activist mentioning that he visited some AIDS
                              patients in the hospital. They said something that really made an
                              impression on him. They told him that sure, they remembered the
                              feverishly strong sexual compulsion they felt when they had sex all
                              those times - unprotected. There's a sort of divine madness that
                              takes over, seems like it will protect you. Now, they are
                              experiencing the aftermath. They all told the activist that they'd
                              gladly give away the sexual experiences they had, plus all hope of
                              *ever* having sex again, if they could only be free of the virus now.

                              In my case, I was intensely looking into the essence of my nature.
                              What made me ME? What makes anyone what they are, and not something
                              else? Where is my identity located? How is it carried? How is it
                              *my* identity? Although this was not a painful inquiry, it was a
                              constant one - yes, and it had a touch of sweet, light fascination.
                              I was really in the grips of it. My head was in the tiger's mouth.
                              I hadn't heard of any satsangs or spiritual groups doing this kind of
                              stuff. There was no association in my mind of a level, status or
                              endpoint to be reached. Because I had no acquaintances doing this
                              kind of thing, I really didn't have a socially constructed notion of
                              a kind of person to compare myself to, or "an after it is over." I
                              was doing it in kind of an open and unknowing way.

                              --Greg

                              P.S. Plus, meditation helped!
                            • jodyrrr
                              ... wrote: [snip] ... Actually, the seeing of it was accompanied by the simultaneous dissolving of the idea of me as Ramakrishna terms it.
                              Message 14 of 22 , May 5 1:13 PM
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                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                                <jeff@m...> wrote:

                                [snip]

                                > To those, like Jodi, for
                                > whom it was more of an
                                > "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
                                > and life goes on, there
                                > are typically no jimmies,
                                > no cherries, but a sweetness
                                > nevertheless. Even Greg
                                > uses the words "sweetness
                                > and light" in his report.
                                >
                                > (Sorry, Michael.)
                                >
                                > Sweet as ever,
                                >
                                > Jeff

                                Actually, the "seeing" of "it" was accompanied
                                by the simultaneous dissolving of the "idea of
                                me" as Ramakrishna terms it. Watching that me
                                dissolve was almost a shock, but it happened so
                                quickly that there wasn't time for a reaction.

                                This isn't to say I don't have a sense of "me,"
                                just that its hold on identity was shattered, and
                                has remained so ever since.

                                I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
                                although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
                                before it all went down.

                                --jody.
                              • Greg Goode
                                ... ===Yeah, that s just it. Even aging, the deaths of parents, friends, terminal illnesses, my wife going to federal detention for an indeterminate period,
                                Message 15 of 22 , May 5 1:40 PM
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                                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                  <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:


                                  > I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
                                  > although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
                                  > before it all went down.

                                  ===Yeah, that's just it. Even aging, the deaths of parents, friends,
                                  terminal illnesses, my wife going to federal detention for an
                                  indeterminate period, not enough cash for her bail (no bail bonds
                                  accepted for immigration stuff), $1200 phone bills, bleeding
                                  rollerblading accidents, bike accidents, sprains -- all this isn't
                                  separate from sweetness, space and light.

                                  --Greg
                                • de la rouviere
                                  Dear Jeff, May I come in here with some kind of observation. ... comes from a place of despair, degradation, shame and guilt, and the hope is for release from
                                  Message 16 of 22 , May 6 7:12 AM
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                                    Dear Jeff,
                                     
                                    May I come in here with some kind of observation.
                                     
                                    You said:
                                     
                                     >>Yes, we can. When the enquiry
                                    comes from a place of despair,
                                    degradation, shame and guilt,
                                    and the hope is for release
                                    from their grip,>> snip..
                                     
                                    Could it also be that this kind of suffering-based enquiry could have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross suffering has worked itself gradually out of the system there remains the pure suffering of duality in its most delicate form yet to be transcended? 
                                     
                                    I guess what I am suggesting is that there is the totally untrimmed tree to start with and all that is evident are forms of emotional, psychological and mental disturbances.  These no doubt form the bulk of the conscious experience of separation at that level of disorganization.  However, there comes a time along the path of self-enquiry where these things no longer distract the practitioner so heavily from inner silence and some sense of freedom from conditioning and shadow emotional stuff.  This in itself brings a lightness of being, but there is still the residual state of duality present, which could easily again be drawn into mere reactivity and mental distortion.  Yet, at this stage, one is no longer driven by the gross suffering of personal historical stuff.  What is on the table is just the mere sense of duality.  It seems to me that only when this has been recognized as suffering and ways have been found to transcend this fundamental inclination towards mere separateness, can the freedom of which you may be speaking reveal itself.
                                     
                                    Or perhaps we may be talking about different experiences altogether?.  It is really difficult to apprehend the very many manifestations of freedom from where people nowadays speak.  So many claim freedom and enlightement.  I often find it difficult to fully appreciate where they are coming from. In the olden days, and as tradition has it, practioners in the Zen tradition actually often left their teachers, or were sent away to other teachers to have the different levels of their 'enlightenment' verified, disputed, worked on etc. lest the student fools h/herself into truly believing they are fully enlightened while perhaps the finer points might still be missing.  As yet, we have no such kind of 'peer review' in the west relative to our enlightening experiences. So we all seem just have our own relative light to stand or fall by.  This may of course create some serious confusion for many  - and a ready breeding ground for illusion?
                                     
                                    Have a good weekend,
                                    Moller de la Rouviere
                                     
                                     
                                  • Jeff Belyea
                                    ... have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross suffering has worked
                                    Message 17 of 22 , May 6 8:11 AM
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                                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "de la rouviere"
                                      <mollerdlr@t...> wrote:
                                      > Dear Jeff,
                                      >
                                      > May I come in here with some kind of observation.
                                      >
                                      > You said:
                                      >
                                      > >>Yes, we can. When the enquiry
                                      > comes from a place of despair,
                                      > degradation, shame and guilt,
                                      > and the hope is for release
                                      > from their grip,>> snip..
                                      >
                                      > Could it also be that this kind of suffering-based enquiry could
                                      have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from
                                      the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross
                                      suffering has worked itself gradually out of the system there remains
                                      the pure suffering of duality in its most delicate form yet to be
                                      transcended?
                                      >
                                      > I guess what I am suggesting is that there is the totally untrimmed
                                      tree to start with and all that is evident are forms of emotional,
                                      psychological and mental disturbances. These no doubt form the bulk
                                      of the conscious experience of separation at that level of
                                      disorganization. However, there comes a time along the path of self-
                                      enquiry where these things no longer distract the practitioner so
                                      heavily from inner silence and some sense of freedom from
                                      conditioning and shadow emotional stuff. This in itself brings a
                                      lightness of being, but there is still the residual state of duality
                                      present, which could easily again be drawn into mere reactivity and
                                      mental distortion. Yet, at this stage, one is no longer driven by
                                      the gross suffering of personal historical stuff. What is on the
                                      table is just the mere sense of duality. It seems to me that only
                                      when this has been recognized as suffering and ways have been found
                                      to transcend this fundamental inclination towards mere separateness,
                                      can the freedom of which you may be speaking reveal itself.
                                      >
                                      > Or perhaps we may be talking about different experiences
                                      altogether?. It is really difficult to apprehend the very many
                                      manifestations of freedom from where people nowadays speak. So many
                                      claim freedom and enlightement. I often find it difficult to fully
                                      appreciate where they are coming from. In the olden days, and as
                                      tradition has it, practioners in the Zen tradition actually often
                                      left their teachers, or were sent away to other teachers to have the
                                      different levels of their 'enlightenment' verified, disputed, worked
                                      on etc. lest the student fools h/herself into truly believing they
                                      are fully enlightened while perhaps the finer points might still be
                                      missing. As yet, we have no such kind of 'peer review' in the west
                                      relative to our enlightening experiences. So we all seem just have
                                      our own relative light to stand or fall by. This may of course
                                      create some serious confusion for many - and a ready breeding ground
                                      for illusion?
                                      >
                                      > Have a good weekend,
                                      > Moller de la Rouviere
                                      > www.spiritualhumanism.co.za

                                      Thank you, Moller.

                                      Of course, we can only
                                      speak authentically
                                      from our own direct
                                      experience. And, yes,
                                      this is a difficult
                                      task - to communicate
                                      our personal experience
                                      clearly and completely.

                                      The gradual working out
                                      of the issues that were
                                      the root causes of
                                      suffering, either through
                                      the grace of time or
                                      with the help of a
                                      therapeutic approach
                                      is distinctly different
                                      from the experience of
                                      Enlightened Awakening, a
                                      "stepping into perfection"
                                      in which the startling
                                      realization of "all is well"
                                      presents itself, as if
                                      beyond anything the mind
                                      has previously thought
                                      or imagined.

                                      The latter mends the
                                      illusion of separation
                                      and sense of duality, and
                                      leaves a residual sweetness
                                      as an undercurrent of
                                      day-to-day consciousness
                                      (as Jody and Greg have
                                      noted in recent posts)
                                      that is above any and all
                                      circumstances of life
                                      events.

                                      So many models attempt
                                      to distinguish between
                                      the therapeutic recovery
                                      and the Enlightened, more
                                      dramatic resolution of
                                      suffering. And even these
                                      have subsets. The savikalpa
                                      and nirvikalpa, and then
                                      sahaj samadhi, come to
                                      mind.

                                      The easing of suffering
                                      through time erasure of
                                      the sting, the temporary
                                      Enlightenment of savikalpa
                                      samadhi, and the seemingly
                                      permanent shift of awareness
                                      and Awakening to the
                                      "Ture Self" of nirvikalpa
                                      samadhi are neat distinctions,
                                      but as you've written,
                                      can cause a lot of confusion
                                      and maybe even delusion.

                                      Additionally, those who
                                      feel compelled, or as
                                      Bruce Morgen writes, are
                                      "choicelessly obligated"
                                      to share the good news
                                      of Enlightenment, seem
                                      to innocenlty over-promise
                                      the availability of this
                                      New Wisdom, Understanding,
                                      Experiential Knowledge.

                                      The Big Guys of Gurudom,
                                      and the relatively unknown
                                      Awakened Teachers, seem
                                      to all offer a model or
                                      point to a path that they
                                      walked, with the expectation
                                      that a similar walk will
                                      produce a similar result.

                                      As Bruce and Jeff Brooks
                                      have written; if this
                                      were so, we would have
                                      millions instead of
                                      hundreds of Awakened
                                      Ones, Buddhas, Christs,
                                      Krisnas, on earth now.

                                      As for the much-hunted
                                      deluded gurus, it seems
                                      that this is a much-overblown
                                      hunt. It is unimaginable
                                      that anyone would step up
                                      to the role without the
                                      experiential knowledge -
                                      for some power trip or
                                      monetary reward. That
                                      hunt is left for others.

                                      Those who fire verbal
                                      bombast at any talk or
                                      writing of Enlightenment
                                      are the more discouraging
                                      and disparaging game in
                                      my crosshairs.

                                      Peace,

                                      Jeff
                                    • Jeff Belyea
                                      ... Hi Jody - Thanks. The dissolving of the idea of me is one of those subtle and difficult to describe aspects of Awakening that has the rational mind hear
                                      Message 18 of 22 , May 9 6:50 AM
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                                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                        <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                                        > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > [snip]
                                        >
                                        > > To those, like Jody, for
                                        > > whom it was more of an
                                        > > "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
                                        > > and life goes on, there
                                        > > are typically no jimmies,
                                        > > no cherries, but a sweetness
                                        > > nevertheless. Even Greg
                                        > > uses the words "sweetness
                                        > > and light" in his report.
                                        > >
                                        > > (Sorry, Michael.)
                                        > >
                                        > > Sweet as ever,
                                        > >
                                        > > Jeff
                                        >
                                        > Actually, the "seeing" of "it" was accompanied
                                        > by the simultaneous dissolving of the "idea of
                                        > me" as Ramakrishna terms it. Watching that me
                                        > dissolve was almost a shock, but it happened so
                                        > quickly that there wasn't time for a reaction.
                                        >
                                        > This isn't to say I don't have a sense of "me,"
                                        > just that its hold on identity was shattered, and
                                        > has remained so ever since.
                                        >
                                        > I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
                                        > although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
                                        > before it all went down.
                                        >
                                        > --jody.


                                        Hi Jody -

                                        Thanks.

                                        The dissolving of the "idea
                                        of me" is one of those subtle
                                        and difficult to describe
                                        aspects of Awakening that
                                        has the rational mind hear
                                        a metal-pipe clang.

                                        That shift out of the personal
                                        sense of "ego" to just "being"
                                        brings the sweet relief from
                                        taking anything personally, and
                                        it not only allows for continuity
                                        of the fiery asshole persona...
                                        it transforms one predisposed
                                        to being a fiery asshole
                                        into a fearless fiery asshole;
                                        taming the lions of fear and
                                        doubt and replacing those with
                                        a hot and sweet pepper undercurrent.

                                        Love, as always,

                                        Jeff
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