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Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: TRANSMISSION

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  • Sandeep
    ... From: subhash naik To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 11:27 AM Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re:
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 30 11:05 AM
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      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 11:27 AM
      Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: TRANSMISSION

      >
      As per my Master --Prejudice is the greatest
      evil,rather the deadliest poision for spiritual
      life.
       
       
       
       
      Tell your Master that to notice prejudice is the biggest prejudice.
       
       
       
    • jodyrrr
      ... And also tell him that lying about his abilities makes him nothing more than a criminal.
      Message 2 of 22 , May 2, 2005
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Sandeep"
        <sandeep1960@y...> wrote:
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: subhash naik
        > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 11:27 AM
        > Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: TRANSMISSION
        >
        >
        > >
        > As per my Master --Prejudice is the greatest
        > evil,rather the deadliest poision for spiritual
        > life.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Tell your Master that to notice prejudice is the biggest prejudice.

        And also tell him that lying about his abilities
        makes him nothing more than a criminal.
      • jasonjamesmorgan
        Hello, hello, Put two glasses of water side by side, and the temperatures even out. This is called resonance. If you want to defute transmition, go to the
        Message 3 of 22 , May 2, 2005
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          Hello, hello,

          Put two glasses of water side by side, and the temperatures even
          out. This is called resonance. If you want to defute transmition,
          go to the local university, and prove the world wrong.

          In the satsang, the guru is a glass of hot water, but he is stable at
          that temperature, sahaja. The disciples are glasses of water at
          vering degrees of temperature. They disciples will slowly be
          resonated to the temperature of the guru.

          Without using allegory, this is what happens.

          1.The gurus kundulini is at a high frequency, which causes the
          disciples frequency to rise. Hence so many kryas after satsang.

          2. The gurus mind is still, this slowly stops the minds of other.
          This is called teaching in the silence ie dakshinamurti. In the
          silence of the mind, the awareness is realized.

          3. The combined states of the disciples will alter the effect from
          the guru. In one on one satsang the effect is more powerfull and
          faster. In group it takes longer and is not as powerfull. It has to
          do with the gurus state, and if he takes matter into his own hands
          and forces the states of the people.

          Number 3 is like puting a hot glass of water beside several cold
          glasses. Provided the temp of the hot glass is stable, it will take
          longer to heat 3 glasses than 1.

          The gurus role is this. He has more experience and more knowledge
          than the average person. Like a doctor, the guru is doing this full
          time. You do not have to be a renuciate to be realized. In the
          gurus experience and knowledge, he sees the easiest path for the
          student, and thus if the student surrendors to the will of the guru,
          his liberation will happen sooner.

          Apong awakeing the mometum or parabdha of the student is what it was
          before. A householder will be a householder. A renunciate a
          renunciate.

          This is what Ramakrishna taught and realized. That is why he
          censored his teachings to some. There were a few books that he only
          let Vivikananda read, even over his other chosen disciples.

          So no more bad talk about gurus. Alot of gurus are money seeking,
          authoritarians. But not all. powers or siddhis are real, but
          I appluad your stance of disbelief, and condem your inability to
          realize them. You should take them as a working hipothesis untill
          such time as you prove them to yourself.

          A renunciate was a renunciate before his realization, and he will be
          one after.

          In the west, the traditional guru is not respected. That is because
          everyone believes in equal rights etc. Half truth, half truths my
          friends. Look around, is everyone equal? No of course not. However
          our true selfs are equal, our true natures. Half truths.

          In the tradition system the student goes to the master and argues
          till he is blue in the face. If the master can demostrate to the
          student his prowess, the student can then surrendor. The devotee
          knows that the experience of the guru and knowledge, is what is best
          for him. He know that guru is love manifest, and will lead the
          disciple up the easiest path. The disciple need not read the vedas
          to realize, need not go on pilgramiges to realize. But he might, and
          if that will help the devotee, that is where he is sent.

          So, argue and keep argueing untill you meet someone who blows you
          away. It is not nessecary to have a traditional guru, as the
          tradition is available at a few clicks of the mouse, but for those
          who will find one. Keep an open mind.

          And remember that gurus are running out their parabdha. And their
          parabdha might not be congruent with yours. Does that make him a
          fraud? of course not. Osho can kiss ass, but for others they would
          gladly kiss his. And why I dont listen to him, is that group
          masterbation, hippie , cars and riches arent my parabdha. But
          their are alot of rich dudes out their who had "fun" and this is
          their parabdha when they start their search. So even my annoying
          little friend osho has his role.

          Anyways, I got to go. Be back in a few days.
          Namaste
          Om Namah Shivaya
          Jason James Morgan



          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
          <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Sandeep"
          > <sandeep1960@y...> wrote:
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: subhash naik
          > > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
          > > Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 11:27 AM
          > > Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: TRANSMISSION
          > >
          > >
          > > >
          > > As per my Master --Prejudice is the greatest
          > > evil,rather the liest poision for spiritual
          > > life.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Tell your Master that to notice prejudice is the biggest
          prejudice.
          >
          > And also tell him that lying about his abilities
          > makes him nothing more than a criminal.
        • jodyrrr
          ... The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding. Everyone is the Self. Nobody is more the Self,
          Message 4 of 22 , May 2, 2005
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, jasonjamesmorgan
            <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > Hello, hello,
            >
            > Put two glasses of water side by side, and the temperatures even
            > out. This is called resonance. If you want to defute transmition,
            > go to the local university, and prove the world wrong.

            The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
            physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.

            Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
            despite what superstitious folk want to believe
            about their gurus.

            The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
            a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.

            What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
            the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
            the Self in their awareness. It's not something
            you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
            suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
            can make the connection for you, but you've got to
            see it alone, completely outside any mythological
            beliefs anyone has about gurus.
          • Reynold Wingate
            Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who wanted to become disciples. He believed the spiritual path o each individual is different. A guru can only give
            Message 5 of 22 , May 3, 2005
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              Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who wanted
              to become disciples. He believed the spiritual path o
              each individual is different. A guru can only give
              general tips to grow spiritually based on his own
              personal experience. It may not necessarily work for
              his disciples.

              I believe a guru is not an absolute necessity for
              spiritual growth. If you have the desire deep in you,
              you will stumble into the truth some day.

              --- jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:

              ---------------------------------
              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
              jasonjamesmorgan
              <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              > Hello, hello,
              >
              > Put two glasses of water side by side, and the
              temperatures even
              > out. This is called resonance. If you want to
              defute transmition,
              > go to the local university, and prove the world
              wrong.

              The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
              physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.

              Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
              despite what superstitious folk want to believe
              about their gurus.

              The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
              a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.

              What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
              the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
              the Self in their awareness. It's not something
              you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
              suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
              can make the connection for you, but you've got to
              see it alone, completely outside any mythological
              beliefs anyone has about gurus.





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            • Bruce Morgen
              ... Well, he tried to do it -- unfortunately, after he died he became the nexus of YAPBC (Yet Another Posthumous Bhakti Cult). ... That s a fact, no belief is
              Message 6 of 22 , May 3, 2005
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                Reynold Wingate wrote:

                >Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who wanted
                >to become disciples.
                >
                Well, he tried to do it --
                unfortunately, after he
                died he became the nexus
                of YAPBC (Yet Another
                Posthumous Bhakti Cult).

                >He believed the spiritual path o
                >each individual is different.
                >
                That's a fact, no belief
                is required.

                >A guru can only give
                >general tips to grow spiritually based on his own
                >personal experience.
                >
                Yes, just as pointing at
                the moon isn't that same
                as being able to grab it
                and hand it over. ;-)

                >It may not necessarily work for
                >his disciples.
                >
                >
                Clearly, otherwise such
                "disciples" would themselves
                uniformly be realized.
                There's obviously no
                universal recipe for that.

                >I believe a guru is not an absolute necessity for
                >spiritual growth. If you have the desire deep in you,
                >you will stumble into the truth some day.
                >
                >
                As Jodyji himself has put it,
                the only actual prerequisite
                is sincerity. This brings
                energy and determination --
                but also an awareness that
                "the desire deep within you"
                may in fact be nothing more
                or other than garden variety
                ambition, abeit clothed in
                "spear-chill" raiment!

                Can we be both sincere and
                indefatigable in our enquiry
                without hope of status and
                attainment? Isn't that the
                subtly elusive "purity" that
                is so often spoken of among
                seekers, the surrendered
                attitude expressed by "Not
                my will, but thine" and the
                very essence of both honest
                enquiry and authentic
                meditation?


                >--- jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
                >
                >---------------------------------
                >--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                >jasonjamesmorgan
                ><no_reply@y...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >>Hello, hello,
                >>
                >>Put two glasses of water side by side, and the
                >>
                >>
                >temperatures even
                >
                >
                >>out. This is called resonance. If you want to
                >>
                >>
                >defute transmition,
                >
                >
                >>go to the local university, and prove the world
                >>
                >>
                >wrong.
                >
                >The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
                >physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
                >
                >Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
                >despite what superstitious folk want to believe
                >about their gurus.
                >
                >The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
                >a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
                >
                >What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
                >the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
                >the Self in their awareness. It's not something
                >you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
                >suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
                >can make the connection for you, but you've got to
                >see it alone, completely outside any mythological
                >beliefs anyone has about gurus.
                >
                >
              • jodyrrr
                ... Absolutely. One s sincerity can carry them as far if not farther than any mommy or daddy surrogate one is sucked up to. While it s definitely helpful and
                Message 7 of 22 , May 3, 2005
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                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Reynold Wingate
                  <reystar99@y...> wrote:
                  > Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who wanted
                  > to become disciples. He believed the spiritual path o
                  > each individual is different. A guru can only give
                  > general tips to grow spiritually based on his own
                  > personal experience. It may not necessarily work for
                  > his disciples.
                  >
                  > I believe a guru is not an absolute necessity for
                  > spiritual growth. If you have the desire deep in you,
                  > you will stumble into the truth some day.

                  Absolutely. One's sincerity can carry them as
                  far if not farther than any mommy or daddy surrogate
                  one is sucked up to.

                  While it's definitely helpful and a blessing to have a
                  real guru instead of one of these nonsense transmitters,
                  the inner guru takes precedent every time.
                • Greg Goode
                  Hey Bruceji, That s a cool one, YAPBC. I just might use it, with full attribution, of course! --Greg
                  Message 8 of 22 , May 3, 2005
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                    Hey Bruceji,

                     

                    That’s a cool one, YAPBC.

                    I just might use it, with full

                    attribution, of course!

                     

                    --Greg

                  • jasonjamesmorgan
                    ... Well, well, Your a bit father off than I originally thought. I see you are still doing your sadhana to the end of savikalpa samadhi. For if you were
                    Message 9 of 22 , May 3, 2005
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                      >
                      > The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
                      > physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
                      >
                      > Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
                      > despite what superstitious folk want to believe
                      > about their gurus.
                      >
                      > The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
                      > a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
                      >
                      > What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
                      > the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
                      > the Self in their awareness. It's not something
                      > you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
                      > suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
                      > can make the connection for you, but you've got to
                      > see it alone, completely outside any mythological
                      > beliefs anyone has about gurus.

                      Well, well,

                      Your a bit father off than I originally thought. I see you are still
                      doing your sadhana to the end of savikalpa samadhi. For if you were
                      realized, you would know that duality is obvious and apparent and
                      GOD. You have not realized, as you denie one side of the coin.

                      A person can send prana to wherever, whenever they choose.

                      So sad, so close, but to stubborn in his sadhana to drop the concept
                      of no concepts.

                      I grow bored of this. Maybe I will be back next year. My compassion
                      might bring forth a thought or two for you. Ta Ta.

                      Namaste
                      Om Namah Shivaya
                    • Reynold Wingate
                      Can you please rephrase the last two paragraphs? I have read somewhere that when high-sounding words are abundant in writing, that s a sign the writer is not
                      Message 10 of 22 , May 3, 2005
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                        Can you please rephrase the last two paragraphs? I
                        have read somewhere that when high-sounding words are
                        abundant in writing, that's a sign the writer is not
                        very sure of what he is talking about. Good writing on
                        spirituality should be simple and easy to understand.
                        I am lost in the last two paragraphs you wrote. Sorry!

                        Reynold
                        --- Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:

                        ---------------------------------
                        Reynold Wingate wrote:

                        >Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who
                        wanted
                        >to become disciples.
                        >
                        Well, he tried to do it --
                        unfortunately, after he
                        died he became the nexus
                        of YAPBC (Yet Another
                        Posthumous Bhakti Cult).

                        >He believed the spiritual path o
                        >each individual is different.
                        >
                        That's a fact, no belief
                        is required.

                        >A guru can only give
                        >general tips to grow spiritually based on his own
                        >personal experience.
                        >
                        Yes, just as pointing at
                        the moon isn't that same
                        as being able to grab it
                        and hand it over. ;-)

                        >It may not necessarily work for
                        >his disciples.
                        >
                        >
                        Clearly, otherwise such
                        "disciples" would themselves
                        uniformly be realized.
                        There's obviously no
                        universal recipe for that.

                        >I believe a guru is not an absolute necessity for
                        >spiritual growth. If you have the desire deep in you,
                        >you will stumble into the truth some day.
                        >
                        >
                        As Jodyji himself has put it,
                        the only actual prerequisite
                        is sincerity. This brings
                        energy and determination --
                        but also an awareness that
                        "the desire deep within you"
                        may in fact be nothing more
                        or other than garden variety
                        ambition, abeit clothed in
                        "spear-chill" raiment!

                        Can we be both sincere and
                        indefatigable in our enquiry
                        without hope of status and
                        attainment? Isn't that the
                        subtly elusive "purity" that
                        is so often spoken of among
                        seekers, the surrendered
                        attitude expressed by "Not
                        my will, but thine" and the
                        very essence of both honest
                        enquiry and authentic
                        meditation?


                        >--- jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >---------------------------------
                        >--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                        >jasonjamesmorgan
                        ><no_reply@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >>Hello, hello,
                        >>
                        >>Put two glasses of water side by side, and the
                        >>
                        >>
                        >temperatures even
                        >
                        >
                        >>out. This is called resonance. If you want to
                        >>
                        >>
                        >defute transmition,
                        >
                        >
                        >>go to the local university, and prove the world
                        >>
                        >>
                        >wrong.
                        >
                        >The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
                        >physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
                        >
                        >Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
                        >despite what superstitious folk want to believe
                        >about their gurus.
                        >
                        >The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
                        >a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
                        >
                        >What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
                        >the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
                        >the Self in their awareness. It's not something
                        >you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
                        >suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
                        >can make the connection for you, but you've got to
                        >see it alone, completely outside any mythological
                        >beliefs anyone has about gurus.
                        >
                        >



                        ---------------------------------
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                      • Bruce Morgen
                        ... I could, but with all due respect, I ll decline that request at his time. ... An absurd contention imo, especially given that there is no consensus on what
                        Message 11 of 22 , May 4, 2005
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                          Reynold Wingate wrote:

                          >Can you please rephrase the last two paragraphs?
                          >
                          I could, but with all due
                          respect, I'll decline that
                          request at his time.

                          >I
                          >have read somewhere that when high-sounding words are
                          >abundant in writing, that's a sign the writer is not
                          >very sure of what he is talking about.
                          >
                          An absurd contention imo,
                          especially given that
                          there is no consensus on
                          what "high-sounding"
                          means.

                          >Good writing on
                          >spirituality should be simple and easy to understand.
                          >
                          >
                          Well, that certainly puts
                          a good deal of what the
                          ancients wrote out of the
                          running, doesn't it?

                          >I am lost in the last two paragraphs you wrote. Sorry!
                          >
                          >
                          Me too -- but there it is.
                          Are you sure you're not
                          being a bit lazy in your
                          approach? I can see only
                          one or two words in those
                          paragraphs that are all
                          that uncommon, and the
                          sentences parse pretty
                          easily. The gists of both
                          are quite simple and I'd be
                          glad to discuss whatever
                          specifics are eluding you.

                          Thank you for your interest!

                          >Reynold
                          >--- Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >---------------------------------
                          >Reynold Wingate wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >>Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who
                          >>
                          >>
                          >wanted
                          >
                          >
                          >>to become disciples.
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >Well, he tried to do it --
                          >unfortunately, after he
                          >died he became the nexus
                          >of YAPBC (Yet Another
                          >Posthumous Bhakti Cult).
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >>He believed the spiritual path o
                          >>each individual is different.
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >That's a fact, no belief
                          >is required.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >>A guru can only give
                          >>general tips to grow spiritually based on his own
                          >>personal experience.
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >Yes, just as pointing at
                          >the moon isn't that same
                          >as being able to grab it
                          >and hand it over. ;-)
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >>It may not necessarily work for
                          >>his disciples.
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >Clearly, otherwise such
                          >"disciples" would themselves
                          >uniformly be realized.
                          >There's obviously no
                          >universal recipe for that.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >>I believe a guru is not an absolute necessity for
                          >>spiritual growth. If you have the desire deep in you,
                          >>you will stumble into the truth some day.
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >As Jodyji himself has put it,
                          >the only actual prerequisite
                          >is sincerity. This brings
                          >energy and determination --
                          >but also an awareness that
                          >"the desire deep within you"
                          >may in fact be nothing more
                          >or other than garden variety
                          >ambition, abeit clothed in
                          >"spear-chill" raiment!
                          >
                          >Can we be both sincere and
                          >indefatigable in our enquiry
                          >without hope of status and
                          >attainment? Isn't that the
                          >subtly elusive "purity" that
                          >is so often spoken of among
                          >seekers, the surrendered
                          >attitude expressed by "Not
                          >my will, but thine" and the
                          >very essence of both honest
                          >enquiry and authentic
                          >meditation?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >>--- jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
                          >>
                          >>---------------------------------
                          >>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                          >>jasonjamesmorgan
                          >><no_reply@y...> wrote:
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>>Hello, hello,
                          >>>
                          >>>Put two glasses of water side by side, and the
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>temperatures even
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>>out. This is called resonance. If you want to
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>defute transmition,
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>>go to the local university, and prove the world
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>wrong.
                          >>
                          >>The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
                          >>physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
                          >>
                          >>Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
                          >>despite what superstitious folk want to believe
                          >>about their gurus.
                          >>
                          >>The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
                          >>a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
                          >>
                          >>What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
                          >>the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
                          >>the Self in their awareness. It's not something
                          >>you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
                          >>suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
                          >>can make the connection for you, but you've got to
                          >>see it alone, completely outside any mythological
                          >>beliefs anyone has about gurus.
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                        • jodyrrr
                          ... But the obviousness of duality does not include the reality of the magical nonsense which exists in spiritual culture, the nonsense you are taking for
                          Message 12 of 22 , May 4, 2005
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                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, jasonjamesmorgan
                            <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            > > The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
                            > > physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
                            > >
                            > > Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
                            > > despite what superstitious folk want to believe
                            > > about their gurus.
                            > >
                            > > The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
                            > > a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
                            > >
                            > > What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
                            > > the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
                            > > the Self in their awareness. It's not something
                            > > you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
                            > > suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
                            > > can make the connection for you, but you've got to
                            > > see it alone, completely outside any mythological
                            > > beliefs anyone has about gurus.
                            >
                            > Well, well,
                            >
                            > Your a bit father off than I originally thought. I see you are still
                            > doing your sadhana to the end of savikalpa samadhi. For if you were
                            > realized, you would know that duality is obvious and apparent and
                            > GOD. You have not realized, as you denie one side of the coin.

                            But the obviousness of duality does not include the reality
                            of the magical nonsense which exists in spiritual culture,
                            the nonsense you are taking for fact. The nonsense which
                            chokes the life out of realization like algae in a pond.

                            > A person can send prana to wherever, whenever they choose.

                            Sure, as a intellectual conceit or in a dream.

                            > So sad, so close, but to stubborn in his sadhana to drop the concept
                            > of no concepts.

                            The same is said of you, unable to see the truth that sits
                            on the end of your nose.

                            > I grow bored of this. Maybe I will be back next year. My compassion
                            > might bring forth a thought or two for you. Ta Ta.
                            >
                            > Namaste
                            > Om Namah Shivaya

                            How generous. Don't let the door hit you in
                            the ass.
                          • Jeff Belyea
                            ... Yes, we can. When the enquiry comes from a place of despair, degradation, shame and guilt, and the hope is for release from their grip, neither purity nor
                            Message 13 of 22 , May 5, 2005
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                              > Can we be both sincere and
                              > indefatigable in our enquiry
                              > without hope of status and
                              > attainment?

                              Yes, we can. When the enquiry
                              comes from a place of despair,
                              degradation, shame and guilt,
                              and the hope is for release
                              from their grip, neither purity
                              nor status nor attainment are
                              the foci - unless you are
                              going to quibble that attainment
                              of peace of mind is to be
                              counted among "attainments".
                              It is gift. The fact that
                              IT grants purity does not
                              count, either. The POM and
                              purity are totally Jackerjacks'
                              surprises. (Just a little
                              anticipatory fencing
                              before the touche).

                              The awakening in this context
                              is a startling and unexpected
                              helping of jimmies, a cherry
                              on top, a...lot of sweetness,
                              and frequently gives birth to
                              a Bhakti Yogi - a gratitude
                              attitude for the double scoop.

                              The fact that reports of
                              this unique solution are
                              often couched in spiritual
                              terms may be the result of
                              a family tradition or a
                              cultural prime coat.

                              Some will hear the reports
                              of spiritual enlightenment
                              as ego aggrandizement and
                              attempts to attain status
                              or imply some attainment
                              of a lofty estate. But the
                              Bhakti Yogi has no such
                              interests.

                              To those, like Jodi, for
                              whom it was more of an
                              "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
                              and life goes on, there
                              are typically no jimmies,
                              no cherries, but a sweetness
                              nevertheless. Even Greg
                              uses the words "sweetness
                              and light" in his report.

                              (Sorry, Michael.)

                              Sweet as ever,

                              Jeff
                            • Greg Goode
                              ... ===These are good points. Sincerely and singlemindedly trying to end one s suffering is not the same as going for the status of having attained a goal.
                              Message 14 of 22 , May 5, 2005
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                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                                <jeff@m...> wrote:
                                > > Can we be both sincere and
                                > > indefatigable in our enquiry
                                > > without hope of status and
                                > > attainment?
                                >
                                > Yes, we can. When the enquiry
                                > comes from a place of despair,
                                > degradation, shame and guilt,
                                > and the hope is for release
                                > from their grip, neither purity
                                > nor status nor attainment are
                                > the foci.

                                ...

                                > Even Greg uses the words "sweetness
                                > and light" in his report.

                                ===These are good points. Sincerely and singlemindedly trying to end
                                one's suffering is not the same as going for the status of having
                                attained a goal. When in the middle of great suffering, a person
                                would gladly trade all chances of lofty attainment for the relief
                                from suffering.

                                I remember one AIDS activist mentioning that he visited some AIDS
                                patients in the hospital. They said something that really made an
                                impression on him. They told him that sure, they remembered the
                                feverishly strong sexual compulsion they felt when they had sex all
                                those times - unprotected. There's a sort of divine madness that
                                takes over, seems like it will protect you. Now, they are
                                experiencing the aftermath. They all told the activist that they'd
                                gladly give away the sexual experiences they had, plus all hope of
                                *ever* having sex again, if they could only be free of the virus now.

                                In my case, I was intensely looking into the essence of my nature.
                                What made me ME? What makes anyone what they are, and not something
                                else? Where is my identity located? How is it carried? How is it
                                *my* identity? Although this was not a painful inquiry, it was a
                                constant one - yes, and it had a touch of sweet, light fascination.
                                I was really in the grips of it. My head was in the tiger's mouth.
                                I hadn't heard of any satsangs or spiritual groups doing this kind of
                                stuff. There was no association in my mind of a level, status or
                                endpoint to be reached. Because I had no acquaintances doing this
                                kind of thing, I really didn't have a socially constructed notion of
                                a kind of person to compare myself to, or "an after it is over." I
                                was doing it in kind of an open and unknowing way.

                                --Greg

                                P.S. Plus, meditation helped!
                              • jodyrrr
                                ... wrote: [snip] ... Actually, the seeing of it was accompanied by the simultaneous dissolving of the idea of me as Ramakrishna terms it.
                                Message 15 of 22 , May 5, 2005
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                                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                                  <jeff@m...> wrote:

                                  [snip]

                                  > To those, like Jodi, for
                                  > whom it was more of an
                                  > "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
                                  > and life goes on, there
                                  > are typically no jimmies,
                                  > no cherries, but a sweetness
                                  > nevertheless. Even Greg
                                  > uses the words "sweetness
                                  > and light" in his report.
                                  >
                                  > (Sorry, Michael.)
                                  >
                                  > Sweet as ever,
                                  >
                                  > Jeff

                                  Actually, the "seeing" of "it" was accompanied
                                  by the simultaneous dissolving of the "idea of
                                  me" as Ramakrishna terms it. Watching that me
                                  dissolve was almost a shock, but it happened so
                                  quickly that there wasn't time for a reaction.

                                  This isn't to say I don't have a sense of "me,"
                                  just that its hold on identity was shattered, and
                                  has remained so ever since.

                                  I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
                                  although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
                                  before it all went down.

                                  --jody.
                                • Greg Goode
                                  ... ===Yeah, that s just it. Even aging, the deaths of parents, friends, terminal illnesses, my wife going to federal detention for an indeterminate period,
                                  Message 16 of 22 , May 5, 2005
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                                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                    <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:


                                    > I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
                                    > although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
                                    > before it all went down.

                                    ===Yeah, that's just it. Even aging, the deaths of parents, friends,
                                    terminal illnesses, my wife going to federal detention for an
                                    indeterminate period, not enough cash for her bail (no bail bonds
                                    accepted for immigration stuff), $1200 phone bills, bleeding
                                    rollerblading accidents, bike accidents, sprains -- all this isn't
                                    separate from sweetness, space and light.

                                    --Greg
                                  • de la rouviere
                                    Dear Jeff, May I come in here with some kind of observation. ... comes from a place of despair, degradation, shame and guilt, and the hope is for release from
                                    Message 17 of 22 , May 6, 2005
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                                      Dear Jeff,
                                       
                                      May I come in here with some kind of observation.
                                       
                                      You said:
                                       
                                       >>Yes, we can. When the enquiry
                                      comes from a place of despair,
                                      degradation, shame and guilt,
                                      and the hope is for release
                                      from their grip,>> snip..
                                       
                                      Could it also be that this kind of suffering-based enquiry could have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross suffering has worked itself gradually out of the system there remains the pure suffering of duality in its most delicate form yet to be transcended? 
                                       
                                      I guess what I am suggesting is that there is the totally untrimmed tree to start with and all that is evident are forms of emotional, psychological and mental disturbances.  These no doubt form the bulk of the conscious experience of separation at that level of disorganization.  However, there comes a time along the path of self-enquiry where these things no longer distract the practitioner so heavily from inner silence and some sense of freedom from conditioning and shadow emotional stuff.  This in itself brings a lightness of being, but there is still the residual state of duality present, which could easily again be drawn into mere reactivity and mental distortion.  Yet, at this stage, one is no longer driven by the gross suffering of personal historical stuff.  What is on the table is just the mere sense of duality.  It seems to me that only when this has been recognized as suffering and ways have been found to transcend this fundamental inclination towards mere separateness, can the freedom of which you may be speaking reveal itself.
                                       
                                      Or perhaps we may be talking about different experiences altogether?.  It is really difficult to apprehend the very many manifestations of freedom from where people nowadays speak.  So many claim freedom and enlightement.  I often find it difficult to fully appreciate where they are coming from. In the olden days, and as tradition has it, practioners in the Zen tradition actually often left their teachers, or were sent away to other teachers to have the different levels of their 'enlightenment' verified, disputed, worked on etc. lest the student fools h/herself into truly believing they are fully enlightened while perhaps the finer points might still be missing.  As yet, we have no such kind of 'peer review' in the west relative to our enlightening experiences. So we all seem just have our own relative light to stand or fall by.  This may of course create some serious confusion for many  - and a ready breeding ground for illusion?
                                       
                                      Have a good weekend,
                                      Moller de la Rouviere
                                       
                                       
                                    • Jeff Belyea
                                      ... have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross suffering has worked
                                      Message 18 of 22 , May 6, 2005
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                                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "de la rouviere"
                                        <mollerdlr@t...> wrote:
                                        > Dear Jeff,
                                        >
                                        > May I come in here with some kind of observation.
                                        >
                                        > You said:
                                        >
                                        > >>Yes, we can. When the enquiry
                                        > comes from a place of despair,
                                        > degradation, shame and guilt,
                                        > and the hope is for release
                                        > from their grip,>> snip..
                                        >
                                        > Could it also be that this kind of suffering-based enquiry could
                                        have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from
                                        the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross
                                        suffering has worked itself gradually out of the system there remains
                                        the pure suffering of duality in its most delicate form yet to be
                                        transcended?
                                        >
                                        > I guess what I am suggesting is that there is the totally untrimmed
                                        tree to start with and all that is evident are forms of emotional,
                                        psychological and mental disturbances. These no doubt form the bulk
                                        of the conscious experience of separation at that level of
                                        disorganization. However, there comes a time along the path of self-
                                        enquiry where these things no longer distract the practitioner so
                                        heavily from inner silence and some sense of freedom from
                                        conditioning and shadow emotional stuff. This in itself brings a
                                        lightness of being, but there is still the residual state of duality
                                        present, which could easily again be drawn into mere reactivity and
                                        mental distortion. Yet, at this stage, one is no longer driven by
                                        the gross suffering of personal historical stuff. What is on the
                                        table is just the mere sense of duality. It seems to me that only
                                        when this has been recognized as suffering and ways have been found
                                        to transcend this fundamental inclination towards mere separateness,
                                        can the freedom of which you may be speaking reveal itself.
                                        >
                                        > Or perhaps we may be talking about different experiences
                                        altogether?. It is really difficult to apprehend the very many
                                        manifestations of freedom from where people nowadays speak. So many
                                        claim freedom and enlightement. I often find it difficult to fully
                                        appreciate where they are coming from. In the olden days, and as
                                        tradition has it, practioners in the Zen tradition actually often
                                        left their teachers, or were sent away to other teachers to have the
                                        different levels of their 'enlightenment' verified, disputed, worked
                                        on etc. lest the student fools h/herself into truly believing they
                                        are fully enlightened while perhaps the finer points might still be
                                        missing. As yet, we have no such kind of 'peer review' in the west
                                        relative to our enlightening experiences. So we all seem just have
                                        our own relative light to stand or fall by. This may of course
                                        create some serious confusion for many - and a ready breeding ground
                                        for illusion?
                                        >
                                        > Have a good weekend,
                                        > Moller de la Rouviere
                                        > www.spiritualhumanism.co.za

                                        Thank you, Moller.

                                        Of course, we can only
                                        speak authentically
                                        from our own direct
                                        experience. And, yes,
                                        this is a difficult
                                        task - to communicate
                                        our personal experience
                                        clearly and completely.

                                        The gradual working out
                                        of the issues that were
                                        the root causes of
                                        suffering, either through
                                        the grace of time or
                                        with the help of a
                                        therapeutic approach
                                        is distinctly different
                                        from the experience of
                                        Enlightened Awakening, a
                                        "stepping into perfection"
                                        in which the startling
                                        realization of "all is well"
                                        presents itself, as if
                                        beyond anything the mind
                                        has previously thought
                                        or imagined.

                                        The latter mends the
                                        illusion of separation
                                        and sense of duality, and
                                        leaves a residual sweetness
                                        as an undercurrent of
                                        day-to-day consciousness
                                        (as Jody and Greg have
                                        noted in recent posts)
                                        that is above any and all
                                        circumstances of life
                                        events.

                                        So many models attempt
                                        to distinguish between
                                        the therapeutic recovery
                                        and the Enlightened, more
                                        dramatic resolution of
                                        suffering. And even these
                                        have subsets. The savikalpa
                                        and nirvikalpa, and then
                                        sahaj samadhi, come to
                                        mind.

                                        The easing of suffering
                                        through time erasure of
                                        the sting, the temporary
                                        Enlightenment of savikalpa
                                        samadhi, and the seemingly
                                        permanent shift of awareness
                                        and Awakening to the
                                        "Ture Self" of nirvikalpa
                                        samadhi are neat distinctions,
                                        but as you've written,
                                        can cause a lot of confusion
                                        and maybe even delusion.

                                        Additionally, those who
                                        feel compelled, or as
                                        Bruce Morgen writes, are
                                        "choicelessly obligated"
                                        to share the good news
                                        of Enlightenment, seem
                                        to innocenlty over-promise
                                        the availability of this
                                        New Wisdom, Understanding,
                                        Experiential Knowledge.

                                        The Big Guys of Gurudom,
                                        and the relatively unknown
                                        Awakened Teachers, seem
                                        to all offer a model or
                                        point to a path that they
                                        walked, with the expectation
                                        that a similar walk will
                                        produce a similar result.

                                        As Bruce and Jeff Brooks
                                        have written; if this
                                        were so, we would have
                                        millions instead of
                                        hundreds of Awakened
                                        Ones, Buddhas, Christs,
                                        Krisnas, on earth now.

                                        As for the much-hunted
                                        deluded gurus, it seems
                                        that this is a much-overblown
                                        hunt. It is unimaginable
                                        that anyone would step up
                                        to the role without the
                                        experiential knowledge -
                                        for some power trip or
                                        monetary reward. That
                                        hunt is left for others.

                                        Those who fire verbal
                                        bombast at any talk or
                                        writing of Enlightenment
                                        are the more discouraging
                                        and disparaging game in
                                        my crosshairs.

                                        Peace,

                                        Jeff
                                      • Jeff Belyea
                                        ... Hi Jody - Thanks. The dissolving of the idea of me is one of those subtle and difficult to describe aspects of Awakening that has the rational mind hear
                                        Message 19 of 22 , May 9, 2005
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                                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                          <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                                          > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > [snip]
                                          >
                                          > > To those, like Jody, for
                                          > > whom it was more of an
                                          > > "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
                                          > > and life goes on, there
                                          > > are typically no jimmies,
                                          > > no cherries, but a sweetness
                                          > > nevertheless. Even Greg
                                          > > uses the words "sweetness
                                          > > and light" in his report.
                                          > >
                                          > > (Sorry, Michael.)
                                          > >
                                          > > Sweet as ever,
                                          > >
                                          > > Jeff
                                          >
                                          > Actually, the "seeing" of "it" was accompanied
                                          > by the simultaneous dissolving of the "idea of
                                          > me" as Ramakrishna terms it. Watching that me
                                          > dissolve was almost a shock, but it happened so
                                          > quickly that there wasn't time for a reaction.
                                          >
                                          > This isn't to say I don't have a sense of "me,"
                                          > just that its hold on identity was shattered, and
                                          > has remained so ever since.
                                          >
                                          > I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
                                          > although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
                                          > before it all went down.
                                          >
                                          > --jody.


                                          Hi Jody -

                                          Thanks.

                                          The dissolving of the "idea
                                          of me" is one of those subtle
                                          and difficult to describe
                                          aspects of Awakening that
                                          has the rational mind hear
                                          a metal-pipe clang.

                                          That shift out of the personal
                                          sense of "ego" to just "being"
                                          brings the sweet relief from
                                          taking anything personally, and
                                          it not only allows for continuity
                                          of the fiery asshole persona...
                                          it transforms one predisposed
                                          to being a fiery asshole
                                          into a fearless fiery asshole;
                                          taming the lions of fear and
                                          doubt and replacing those with
                                          a hot and sweet pepper undercurrent.

                                          Love, as always,

                                          Jeff
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