Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

TRANSMISSION

Expand Messages
  • subhash naik
    We have this idea in Sahaj Marg that the body lives by the soul,and the soul can go through time,as we understand it,on its journey to the Ultimate.It lives by
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 28, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      We have this idea in Sahaj Marg that the body lives by the soul,and the soul
      can go through time,as we understand it,on its journey to the Ultimate.It lives
      by transmission.Therefore transimission is called 'life of life' or' PRANSYA
      PRANA' in the Sanskrit language.
      Our Grand Master,Lalaji Maharaj rediscovered the spiritual method to utilise
      transmission,the divine energy,for transformation of mankind.This
      transmission is something which is capable of being felt by anybody who
      takes the trouble of practising this system even for a brief period.In fact it is the
      transmission which sets Sahaj Marg apart from other yogas, and from all other
      systems of human evolution.Transmission is defined as the utilization of the
      Divine energy for the transformation of man.The Master has prepared
      individuals who are permitted to transmit the Divine Energy (Pranaahuti) to
      aspirants on his behalf.They are called preceptors or prefects.(CONT.)
    • jodyrrr
      Transmission as you are speaking about it has as much to do with the nondual truth as my dog s ass. It s nothing more than a way for gurus to scam devotees
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 29, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        "Transmission" as you are speaking about it
        has as much to do with the nondual truth as my dog's ass.

        It's nothing more than a way for gurus to scam devotees
        by making themselves indispensible.

        --jody.

        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "subhash naik"
        <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
        > We have this idea in Sahaj Marg that the body lives by the soul,and
        the soul
        > can go through time,as we understand it,on its journey to the
        Ultimate.It lives
        > by transmission.Therefore transimission is called 'life of life' or'
        PRANSYA
        > PRANA' in the Sanskrit language.
        > Our Grand Master,Lalaji Maharaj rediscovered the spiritual method to
        utilise
        > transmission,the divine energy,for transformation of mankind.This
        > transmission is something which is capable of being felt by anybody who
        > takes the trouble of practising this system even for a brief
        period.In fact it is the
        > transmission which sets Sahaj Marg apart from other yogas, and from
        all other
        > systems of human evolution.Transmission is defined as the
        utilization of the
        > Divine energy for the transformation of man.The Master has prepared
        > individuals who are permitted to transmit the Divine Energy
        (Pranaahuti) to
        > aspirants on his behalf.They are called preceptors or prefects.(CONT.)
      • subhash naik
        ... As per my Master --Prejudice is the greatest evil,rather the deadliest poision for spiritual life.It keeps one confined to himself,losing all access to a
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 29, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          --- jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:

          > "Transmission" as you are speaking about it
          > has as much to do with the nondual truth as my dog's
          > ass.
          >
          > It's nothing more than a way for gurus to scam
          > devotees
          > by making themselves indispensible.
          >
          > --jody.
          >
          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
          > "subhash naik"
          > <sbhshnaik@y...> wrote:
          > > We have this idea in Sahaj Marg that the body
          > lives by the soul,and
          > the soul
          > > can go through time,as we understand it,on its
          > journey to the
          > Ultimate.It lives
          > > by transmission.Therefore transimission is called
          > 'life of life' or'
          > PRANSYA
          > > PRANA' in the Sanskrit language.
          > > Our Grand Master,Lalaji Maharaj rediscovered the
          > spiritual method to
          > utilise
          > > transmission,the divine energy,for transformation
          > of mankind.This
          > > transmission is something which is capable of
          > being felt by anybody who
          > > takes the trouble of practising this system even
          > for a brief
          > period.In fact it is the
          > > transmission which sets Sahaj Marg apart from
          > other yogas, and from
          > all other
          > > systems of human evolution.Transmission is defined
          > as the
          > utilization of the
          > > Divine energy for the transformation of man.The
          > Master has prepared
          > > individuals who are permitted to transmit the
          > Divine Energy
          > (Pranaahuti) to
          > > aspirants on his behalf.They are called preceptors
          > or prefects.(CONT.)
          >
          As per my Master --Prejudice is the greatest
          evil,rather the deadliest poision for spiritual
          life.It keeps one confined to himself,losing all
          access to a broader vision.It creates
          narrow-mindedness and all prospects of development and
          progress are lost to those who pin their souls to
          it.Prejudice breeds hatred towards others and it is
          nothing but a feeling of self-superiority in a
          disguised form.
          >
          >
          >


          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          http://mail.yahoo.com
        • Sandeep
          ... From: subhash naik To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 11:27 AM Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re:
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 30, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 11:27 AM
            Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: TRANSMISSION

            >
            As per my Master --Prejudice is the greatest
            evil,rather the deadliest poision for spiritual
            life.
             
             
             
             
            Tell your Master that to notice prejudice is the biggest prejudice.
             
             
             
          • jodyrrr
            ... And also tell him that lying about his abilities makes him nothing more than a criminal.
            Message 5 of 22 , May 2, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Sandeep"
              <sandeep1960@y...> wrote:
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: subhash naik
              > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 11:27 AM
              > Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: TRANSMISSION
              >
              >
              > >
              > As per my Master --Prejudice is the greatest
              > evil,rather the deadliest poision for spiritual
              > life.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Tell your Master that to notice prejudice is the biggest prejudice.

              And also tell him that lying about his abilities
              makes him nothing more than a criminal.
            • jasonjamesmorgan
              Hello, hello, Put two glasses of water side by side, and the temperatures even out. This is called resonance. If you want to defute transmition, go to the
              Message 6 of 22 , May 2, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello, hello,

                Put two glasses of water side by side, and the temperatures even
                out. This is called resonance. If you want to defute transmition,
                go to the local university, and prove the world wrong.

                In the satsang, the guru is a glass of hot water, but he is stable at
                that temperature, sahaja. The disciples are glasses of water at
                vering degrees of temperature. They disciples will slowly be
                resonated to the temperature of the guru.

                Without using allegory, this is what happens.

                1.The gurus kundulini is at a high frequency, which causes the
                disciples frequency to rise. Hence so many kryas after satsang.

                2. The gurus mind is still, this slowly stops the minds of other.
                This is called teaching in the silence ie dakshinamurti. In the
                silence of the mind, the awareness is realized.

                3. The combined states of the disciples will alter the effect from
                the guru. In one on one satsang the effect is more powerfull and
                faster. In group it takes longer and is not as powerfull. It has to
                do with the gurus state, and if he takes matter into his own hands
                and forces the states of the people.

                Number 3 is like puting a hot glass of water beside several cold
                glasses. Provided the temp of the hot glass is stable, it will take
                longer to heat 3 glasses than 1.

                The gurus role is this. He has more experience and more knowledge
                than the average person. Like a doctor, the guru is doing this full
                time. You do not have to be a renuciate to be realized. In the
                gurus experience and knowledge, he sees the easiest path for the
                student, and thus if the student surrendors to the will of the guru,
                his liberation will happen sooner.

                Apong awakeing the mometum or parabdha of the student is what it was
                before. A householder will be a householder. A renunciate a
                renunciate.

                This is what Ramakrishna taught and realized. That is why he
                censored his teachings to some. There were a few books that he only
                let Vivikananda read, even over his other chosen disciples.

                So no more bad talk about gurus. Alot of gurus are money seeking,
                authoritarians. But not all. powers or siddhis are real, but
                I appluad your stance of disbelief, and condem your inability to
                realize them. You should take them as a working hipothesis untill
                such time as you prove them to yourself.

                A renunciate was a renunciate before his realization, and he will be
                one after.

                In the west, the traditional guru is not respected. That is because
                everyone believes in equal rights etc. Half truth, half truths my
                friends. Look around, is everyone equal? No of course not. However
                our true selfs are equal, our true natures. Half truths.

                In the tradition system the student goes to the master and argues
                till he is blue in the face. If the master can demostrate to the
                student his prowess, the student can then surrendor. The devotee
                knows that the experience of the guru and knowledge, is what is best
                for him. He know that guru is love manifest, and will lead the
                disciple up the easiest path. The disciple need not read the vedas
                to realize, need not go on pilgramiges to realize. But he might, and
                if that will help the devotee, that is where he is sent.

                So, argue and keep argueing untill you meet someone who blows you
                away. It is not nessecary to have a traditional guru, as the
                tradition is available at a few clicks of the mouse, but for those
                who will find one. Keep an open mind.

                And remember that gurus are running out their parabdha. And their
                parabdha might not be congruent with yours. Does that make him a
                fraud? of course not. Osho can kiss ass, but for others they would
                gladly kiss his. And why I dont listen to him, is that group
                masterbation, hippie , cars and riches arent my parabdha. But
                their are alot of rich dudes out their who had "fun" and this is
                their parabdha when they start their search. So even my annoying
                little friend osho has his role.

                Anyways, I got to go. Be back in a few days.
                Namaste
                Om Namah Shivaya
                Jason James Morgan



                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Sandeep"
                > <sandeep1960@y...> wrote:
                > >
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: subhash naik
                > > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                > > Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 11:27 AM
                > > Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: TRANSMISSION
                > >
                > >
                > > >
                > > As per my Master --Prejudice is the greatest
                > > evil,rather the liest poision for spiritual
                > > life.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Tell your Master that to notice prejudice is the biggest
                prejudice.
                >
                > And also tell him that lying about his abilities
                > makes him nothing more than a criminal.
              • jodyrrr
                ... The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding. Everyone is the Self. Nobody is more the Self,
                Message 7 of 22 , May 2, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, jasonjamesmorgan
                  <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  > Hello, hello,
                  >
                  > Put two glasses of water side by side, and the temperatures even
                  > out. This is called resonance. If you want to defute transmition,
                  > go to the local university, and prove the world wrong.

                  The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
                  physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.

                  Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
                  despite what superstitious folk want to believe
                  about their gurus.

                  The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
                  a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.

                  What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
                  the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
                  the Self in their awareness. It's not something
                  you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
                  suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
                  can make the connection for you, but you've got to
                  see it alone, completely outside any mythological
                  beliefs anyone has about gurus.
                • Reynold Wingate
                  Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who wanted to become disciples. He believed the spiritual path o each individual is different. A guru can only give
                  Message 8 of 22 , May 3, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who wanted
                    to become disciples. He believed the spiritual path o
                    each individual is different. A guru can only give
                    general tips to grow spiritually based on his own
                    personal experience. It may not necessarily work for
                    his disciples.

                    I believe a guru is not an absolute necessity for
                    spiritual growth. If you have the desire deep in you,
                    you will stumble into the truth some day.

                    --- jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:

                    ---------------------------------
                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                    jasonjamesmorgan
                    <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    > Hello, hello,
                    >
                    > Put two glasses of water side by side, and the
                    temperatures even
                    > out. This is called resonance. If you want to
                    defute transmition,
                    > go to the local university, and prove the world
                    wrong.

                    The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
                    physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.

                    Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
                    despite what superstitious folk want to believe
                    about their gurus.

                    The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
                    a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.

                    What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
                    the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
                    the Self in their awareness. It's not something
                    you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
                    suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
                    can make the connection for you, but you've got to
                    see it alone, completely outside any mythological
                    beliefs anyone has about gurus.





                    ---------------------------------
                    Yahoo! Groups Links

                    To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meditationsocietyofamerica/

                    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                    Terms of Service.


                    __________________________________________________
                    Do You Yahoo!?
                    Download the latest ringtones, games, and more!
                    http://sg.mobile.yahoo.com
                  • Bruce Morgen
                    ... Well, he tried to do it -- unfortunately, after he died he became the nexus of YAPBC (Yet Another Posthumous Bhakti Cult). ... That s a fact, no belief is
                    Message 9 of 22 , May 3, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Reynold Wingate wrote:

                      >Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who wanted
                      >to become disciples.
                      >
                      Well, he tried to do it --
                      unfortunately, after he
                      died he became the nexus
                      of YAPBC (Yet Another
                      Posthumous Bhakti Cult).

                      >He believed the spiritual path o
                      >each individual is different.
                      >
                      That's a fact, no belief
                      is required.

                      >A guru can only give
                      >general tips to grow spiritually based on his own
                      >personal experience.
                      >
                      Yes, just as pointing at
                      the moon isn't that same
                      as being able to grab it
                      and hand it over. ;-)

                      >It may not necessarily work for
                      >his disciples.
                      >
                      >
                      Clearly, otherwise such
                      "disciples" would themselves
                      uniformly be realized.
                      There's obviously no
                      universal recipe for that.

                      >I believe a guru is not an absolute necessity for
                      >spiritual growth. If you have the desire deep in you,
                      >you will stumble into the truth some day.
                      >
                      >
                      As Jodyji himself has put it,
                      the only actual prerequisite
                      is sincerity. This brings
                      energy and determination --
                      but also an awareness that
                      "the desire deep within you"
                      may in fact be nothing more
                      or other than garden variety
                      ambition, abeit clothed in
                      "spear-chill" raiment!

                      Can we be both sincere and
                      indefatigable in our enquiry
                      without hope of status and
                      attainment? Isn't that the
                      subtly elusive "purity" that
                      is so often spoken of among
                      seekers, the surrendered
                      attitude expressed by "Not
                      my will, but thine" and the
                      very essence of both honest
                      enquiry and authentic
                      meditation?


                      >--- jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >---------------------------------
                      >--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                      >jasonjamesmorgan
                      ><no_reply@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >>Hello, hello,
                      >>
                      >>Put two glasses of water side by side, and the
                      >>
                      >>
                      >temperatures even
                      >
                      >
                      >>out. This is called resonance. If you want to
                      >>
                      >>
                      >defute transmition,
                      >
                      >
                      >>go to the local university, and prove the world
                      >>
                      >>
                      >wrong.
                      >
                      >The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
                      >physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
                      >
                      >Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
                      >despite what superstitious folk want to believe
                      >about their gurus.
                      >
                      >The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
                      >a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
                      >
                      >What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
                      >the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
                      >the Self in their awareness. It's not something
                      >you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
                      >suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
                      >can make the connection for you, but you've got to
                      >see it alone, completely outside any mythological
                      >beliefs anyone has about gurus.
                      >
                      >
                    • jodyrrr
                      ... Absolutely. One s sincerity can carry them as far if not farther than any mommy or daddy surrogate one is sucked up to. While it s definitely helpful and
                      Message 10 of 22 , May 3, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Reynold Wingate
                        <reystar99@y...> wrote:
                        > Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who wanted
                        > to become disciples. He believed the spiritual path o
                        > each individual is different. A guru can only give
                        > general tips to grow spiritually based on his own
                        > personal experience. It may not necessarily work for
                        > his disciples.
                        >
                        > I believe a guru is not an absolute necessity for
                        > spiritual growth. If you have the desire deep in you,
                        > you will stumble into the truth some day.

                        Absolutely. One's sincerity can carry them as
                        far if not farther than any mommy or daddy surrogate
                        one is sucked up to.

                        While it's definitely helpful and a blessing to have a
                        real guru instead of one of these nonsense transmitters,
                        the inner guru takes precedent every time.
                      • Greg Goode
                        Hey Bruceji, That s a cool one, YAPBC. I just might use it, with full attribution, of course! --Greg
                        Message 11 of 22 , May 3, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment

                          Hey Bruceji,

                           

                          That’s a cool one, YAPBC.

                          I just might use it, with full

                          attribution, of course!

                           

                          --Greg

                        • jasonjamesmorgan
                          ... Well, well, Your a bit father off than I originally thought. I see you are still doing your sadhana to the end of savikalpa samadhi. For if you were
                          Message 12 of 22 , May 3, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            >
                            > The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
                            > physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
                            >
                            > Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
                            > despite what superstitious folk want to believe
                            > about their gurus.
                            >
                            > The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
                            > a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
                            >
                            > What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
                            > the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
                            > the Self in their awareness. It's not something
                            > you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
                            > suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
                            > can make the connection for you, but you've got to
                            > see it alone, completely outside any mythological
                            > beliefs anyone has about gurus.

                            Well, well,

                            Your a bit father off than I originally thought. I see you are still
                            doing your sadhana to the end of savikalpa samadhi. For if you were
                            realized, you would know that duality is obvious and apparent and
                            GOD. You have not realized, as you denie one side of the coin.

                            A person can send prana to wherever, whenever they choose.

                            So sad, so close, but to stubborn in his sadhana to drop the concept
                            of no concepts.

                            I grow bored of this. Maybe I will be back next year. My compassion
                            might bring forth a thought or two for you. Ta Ta.

                            Namaste
                            Om Namah Shivaya
                          • Reynold Wingate
                            Can you please rephrase the last two paragraphs? I have read somewhere that when high-sounding words are abundant in writing, that s a sign the writer is not
                            Message 13 of 22 , May 3, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Can you please rephrase the last two paragraphs? I
                              have read somewhere that when high-sounding words are
                              abundant in writing, that's a sign the writer is not
                              very sure of what he is talking about. Good writing on
                              spirituality should be simple and easy to understand.
                              I am lost in the last two paragraphs you wrote. Sorry!

                              Reynold
                              --- Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:

                              ---------------------------------
                              Reynold Wingate wrote:

                              >Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who
                              wanted
                              >to become disciples.
                              >
                              Well, he tried to do it --
                              unfortunately, after he
                              died he became the nexus
                              of YAPBC (Yet Another
                              Posthumous Bhakti Cult).

                              >He believed the spiritual path o
                              >each individual is different.
                              >
                              That's a fact, no belief
                              is required.

                              >A guru can only give
                              >general tips to grow spiritually based on his own
                              >personal experience.
                              >
                              Yes, just as pointing at
                              the moon isn't that same
                              as being able to grab it
                              and hand it over. ;-)

                              >It may not necessarily work for
                              >his disciples.
                              >
                              >
                              Clearly, otherwise such
                              "disciples" would themselves
                              uniformly be realized.
                              There's obviously no
                              universal recipe for that.

                              >I believe a guru is not an absolute necessity for
                              >spiritual growth. If you have the desire deep in you,
                              >you will stumble into the truth some day.
                              >
                              >
                              As Jodyji himself has put it,
                              the only actual prerequisite
                              is sincerity. This brings
                              energy and determination --
                              but also an awareness that
                              "the desire deep within you"
                              may in fact be nothing more
                              or other than garden variety
                              ambition, abeit clothed in
                              "spear-chill" raiment!

                              Can we be both sincere and
                              indefatigable in our enquiry
                              without hope of status and
                              attainment? Isn't that the
                              subtly elusive "purity" that
                              is so often spoken of among
                              seekers, the surrendered
                              attitude expressed by "Not
                              my will, but thine" and the
                              very essence of both honest
                              enquiry and authentic
                              meditation?


                              >--- jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >---------------------------------
                              >--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                              >jasonjamesmorgan
                              ><no_reply@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >>Hello, hello,
                              >>
                              >>Put two glasses of water side by side, and the
                              >>
                              >>
                              >temperatures even
                              >
                              >
                              >>out. This is called resonance. If you want to
                              >>
                              >>
                              >defute transmition,
                              >
                              >
                              >>go to the local university, and prove the world
                              >>
                              >>
                              >wrong.
                              >
                              >The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
                              >physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
                              >
                              >Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
                              >despite what superstitious folk want to believe
                              >about their gurus.
                              >
                              >The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
                              >a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
                              >
                              >What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
                              >the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
                              >the Self in their awareness. It's not something
                              >you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
                              >suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
                              >can make the connection for you, but you've got to
                              >see it alone, completely outside any mythological
                              >beliefs anyone has about gurus.
                              >
                              >



                              ---------------------------------
                              Yahoo! Groups Links

                              To visit your group on the web, go to:
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meditationsocietyofamerica/

                              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                              Terms of Service.


                              __________________________________________________
                              Do You Yahoo!?
                              Download the latest ringtones, games, and more!
                              http://sg.mobile.yahoo.com
                            • Bruce Morgen
                              ... I could, but with all due respect, I ll decline that request at his time. ... An absurd contention imo, especially given that there is no consensus on what
                              Message 14 of 22 , May 4, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Reynold Wingate wrote:

                                >Can you please rephrase the last two paragraphs?
                                >
                                I could, but with all due
                                respect, I'll decline that
                                request at his time.

                                >I
                                >have read somewhere that when high-sounding words are
                                >abundant in writing, that's a sign the writer is not
                                >very sure of what he is talking about.
                                >
                                An absurd contention imo,
                                especially given that
                                there is no consensus on
                                what "high-sounding"
                                means.

                                >Good writing on
                                >spirituality should be simple and easy to understand.
                                >
                                >
                                Well, that certainly puts
                                a good deal of what the
                                ancients wrote out of the
                                running, doesn't it?

                                >I am lost in the last two paragraphs you wrote. Sorry!
                                >
                                >
                                Me too -- but there it is.
                                Are you sure you're not
                                being a bit lazy in your
                                approach? I can see only
                                one or two words in those
                                paragraphs that are all
                                that uncommon, and the
                                sentences parse pretty
                                easily. The gists of both
                                are quite simple and I'd be
                                glad to discuss whatever
                                specifics are eluding you.

                                Thank you for your interest!

                                >Reynold
                                >--- Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >---------------------------------
                                >Reynold Wingate wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >>Jiddu Krishnamoorthy used to dissuade those who
                                >>
                                >>
                                >wanted
                                >
                                >
                                >>to become disciples.
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >Well, he tried to do it --
                                >unfortunately, after he
                                >died he became the nexus
                                >of YAPBC (Yet Another
                                >Posthumous Bhakti Cult).
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >>He believed the spiritual path o
                                >>each individual is different.
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >That's a fact, no belief
                                >is required.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >>A guru can only give
                                >>general tips to grow spiritually based on his own
                                >>personal experience.
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >Yes, just as pointing at
                                >the moon isn't that same
                                >as being able to grab it
                                >and hand it over. ;-)
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >>It may not necessarily work for
                                >>his disciples.
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >Clearly, otherwise such
                                >"disciples" would themselves
                                >uniformly be realized.
                                >There's obviously no
                                >universal recipe for that.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >>I believe a guru is not an absolute necessity for
                                >>spiritual growth. If you have the desire deep in you,
                                >>you will stumble into the truth some day.
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >As Jodyji himself has put it,
                                >the only actual prerequisite
                                >is sincerity. This brings
                                >energy and determination --
                                >but also an awareness that
                                >"the desire deep within you"
                                >may in fact be nothing more
                                >or other than garden variety
                                >ambition, abeit clothed in
                                >"spear-chill" raiment!
                                >
                                >Can we be both sincere and
                                >indefatigable in our enquiry
                                >without hope of status and
                                >attainment? Isn't that the
                                >subtly elusive "purity" that
                                >is so often spoken of among
                                >seekers, the surrendered
                                >attitude expressed by "Not
                                >my will, but thine" and the
                                >very essence of both honest
                                >enquiry and authentic
                                >meditation?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >>--- jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
                                >>
                                >>---------------------------------
                                >>--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                >>jasonjamesmorgan
                                >><no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>>Hello, hello,
                                >>>
                                >>>Put two glasses of water side by side, and the
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>temperatures even
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>>out. This is called resonance. If you want to
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>defute transmition,
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>>go to the local university, and prove the world
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>wrong.
                                >>
                                >>The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
                                >>physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
                                >>
                                >>Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
                                >>despite what superstitious folk want to believe
                                >>about their gurus.
                                >>
                                >>The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
                                >>a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
                                >>
                                >>What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
                                >>the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
                                >>the Self in their awareness. It's not something
                                >>you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
                                >>suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
                                >>can make the connection for you, but you've got to
                                >>see it alone, completely outside any mythological
                                >>beliefs anyone has about gurus.
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                              • jodyrrr
                                ... But the obviousness of duality does not include the reality of the magical nonsense which exists in spiritual culture, the nonsense you are taking for
                                Message 15 of 22 , May 4, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, jasonjamesmorgan
                                  <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > The Self is of nothing in this world. The laws of
                                  > > physics do not apply, facile similes notwithstanding.
                                  > >
                                  > > Everyone is the Self. Nobody is "more" the Self,
                                  > > despite what superstitious folk want to believe
                                  > > about their gurus.
                                  > >
                                  > > The guru isn't there to zap you with shakti. That's
                                  > > a myth some gurus use to make themselves popular.
                                  > >
                                  > > What a 'dispeller of darkness' does is illuminate
                                  > > the thoughts of his/her devotees by pointing out
                                  > > the Self in their awareness. It's not something
                                  > > you catch vibrationally, it's something that's
                                  > > suddenly apparent when it wasn't before. The guru
                                  > > can make the connection for you, but you've got to
                                  > > see it alone, completely outside any mythological
                                  > > beliefs anyone has about gurus.
                                  >
                                  > Well, well,
                                  >
                                  > Your a bit father off than I originally thought. I see you are still
                                  > doing your sadhana to the end of savikalpa samadhi. For if you were
                                  > realized, you would know that duality is obvious and apparent and
                                  > GOD. You have not realized, as you denie one side of the coin.

                                  But the obviousness of duality does not include the reality
                                  of the magical nonsense which exists in spiritual culture,
                                  the nonsense you are taking for fact. The nonsense which
                                  chokes the life out of realization like algae in a pond.

                                  > A person can send prana to wherever, whenever they choose.

                                  Sure, as a intellectual conceit or in a dream.

                                  > So sad, so close, but to stubborn in his sadhana to drop the concept
                                  > of no concepts.

                                  The same is said of you, unable to see the truth that sits
                                  on the end of your nose.

                                  > I grow bored of this. Maybe I will be back next year. My compassion
                                  > might bring forth a thought or two for you. Ta Ta.
                                  >
                                  > Namaste
                                  > Om Namah Shivaya

                                  How generous. Don't let the door hit you in
                                  the ass.
                                • Jeff Belyea
                                  ... Yes, we can. When the enquiry comes from a place of despair, degradation, shame and guilt, and the hope is for release from their grip, neither purity nor
                                  Message 16 of 22 , May 5, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    > Can we be both sincere and
                                    > indefatigable in our enquiry
                                    > without hope of status and
                                    > attainment?

                                    Yes, we can. When the enquiry
                                    comes from a place of despair,
                                    degradation, shame and guilt,
                                    and the hope is for release
                                    from their grip, neither purity
                                    nor status nor attainment are
                                    the foci - unless you are
                                    going to quibble that attainment
                                    of peace of mind is to be
                                    counted among "attainments".
                                    It is gift. The fact that
                                    IT grants purity does not
                                    count, either. The POM and
                                    purity are totally Jackerjacks'
                                    surprises. (Just a little
                                    anticipatory fencing
                                    before the touche).

                                    The awakening in this context
                                    is a startling and unexpected
                                    helping of jimmies, a cherry
                                    on top, a...lot of sweetness,
                                    and frequently gives birth to
                                    a Bhakti Yogi - a gratitude
                                    attitude for the double scoop.

                                    The fact that reports of
                                    this unique solution are
                                    often couched in spiritual
                                    terms may be the result of
                                    a family tradition or a
                                    cultural prime coat.

                                    Some will hear the reports
                                    of spiritual enlightenment
                                    as ego aggrandizement and
                                    attempts to attain status
                                    or imply some attainment
                                    of a lofty estate. But the
                                    Bhakti Yogi has no such
                                    interests.

                                    To those, like Jodi, for
                                    whom it was more of an
                                    "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
                                    and life goes on, there
                                    are typically no jimmies,
                                    no cherries, but a sweetness
                                    nevertheless. Even Greg
                                    uses the words "sweetness
                                    and light" in his report.

                                    (Sorry, Michael.)

                                    Sweet as ever,

                                    Jeff
                                  • Greg Goode
                                    ... ===These are good points. Sincerely and singlemindedly trying to end one s suffering is not the same as going for the status of having attained a goal.
                                    Message 17 of 22 , May 5, 2005
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                                      <jeff@m...> wrote:
                                      > > Can we be both sincere and
                                      > > indefatigable in our enquiry
                                      > > without hope of status and
                                      > > attainment?
                                      >
                                      > Yes, we can. When the enquiry
                                      > comes from a place of despair,
                                      > degradation, shame and guilt,
                                      > and the hope is for release
                                      > from their grip, neither purity
                                      > nor status nor attainment are
                                      > the foci.

                                      ...

                                      > Even Greg uses the words "sweetness
                                      > and light" in his report.

                                      ===These are good points. Sincerely and singlemindedly trying to end
                                      one's suffering is not the same as going for the status of having
                                      attained a goal. When in the middle of great suffering, a person
                                      would gladly trade all chances of lofty attainment for the relief
                                      from suffering.

                                      I remember one AIDS activist mentioning that he visited some AIDS
                                      patients in the hospital. They said something that really made an
                                      impression on him. They told him that sure, they remembered the
                                      feverishly strong sexual compulsion they felt when they had sex all
                                      those times - unprotected. There's a sort of divine madness that
                                      takes over, seems like it will protect you. Now, they are
                                      experiencing the aftermath. They all told the activist that they'd
                                      gladly give away the sexual experiences they had, plus all hope of
                                      *ever* having sex again, if they could only be free of the virus now.

                                      In my case, I was intensely looking into the essence of my nature.
                                      What made me ME? What makes anyone what they are, and not something
                                      else? Where is my identity located? How is it carried? How is it
                                      *my* identity? Although this was not a painful inquiry, it was a
                                      constant one - yes, and it had a touch of sweet, light fascination.
                                      I was really in the grips of it. My head was in the tiger's mouth.
                                      I hadn't heard of any satsangs or spiritual groups doing this kind of
                                      stuff. There was no association in my mind of a level, status or
                                      endpoint to be reached. Because I had no acquaintances doing this
                                      kind of thing, I really didn't have a socially constructed notion of
                                      a kind of person to compare myself to, or "an after it is over." I
                                      was doing it in kind of an open and unknowing way.

                                      --Greg

                                      P.S. Plus, meditation helped!
                                    • jodyrrr
                                      ... wrote: [snip] ... Actually, the seeing of it was accompanied by the simultaneous dissolving of the idea of me as Ramakrishna terms it.
                                      Message 18 of 22 , May 5, 2005
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                                        <jeff@m...> wrote:

                                        [snip]

                                        > To those, like Jodi, for
                                        > whom it was more of an
                                        > "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
                                        > and life goes on, there
                                        > are typically no jimmies,
                                        > no cherries, but a sweetness
                                        > nevertheless. Even Greg
                                        > uses the words "sweetness
                                        > and light" in his report.
                                        >
                                        > (Sorry, Michael.)
                                        >
                                        > Sweet as ever,
                                        >
                                        > Jeff

                                        Actually, the "seeing" of "it" was accompanied
                                        by the simultaneous dissolving of the "idea of
                                        me" as Ramakrishna terms it. Watching that me
                                        dissolve was almost a shock, but it happened so
                                        quickly that there wasn't time for a reaction.

                                        This isn't to say I don't have a sense of "me,"
                                        just that its hold on identity was shattered, and
                                        has remained so ever since.

                                        I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
                                        although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
                                        before it all went down.

                                        --jody.
                                      • Greg Goode
                                        ... ===Yeah, that s just it. Even aging, the deaths of parents, friends, terminal illnesses, my wife going to federal detention for an indeterminate period,
                                        Message 19 of 22 , May 5, 2005
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                          <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:


                                          > I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
                                          > although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
                                          > before it all went down.

                                          ===Yeah, that's just it. Even aging, the deaths of parents, friends,
                                          terminal illnesses, my wife going to federal detention for an
                                          indeterminate period, not enough cash for her bail (no bail bonds
                                          accepted for immigration stuff), $1200 phone bills, bleeding
                                          rollerblading accidents, bike accidents, sprains -- all this isn't
                                          separate from sweetness, space and light.

                                          --Greg
                                        • de la rouviere
                                          Dear Jeff, May I come in here with some kind of observation. ... comes from a place of despair, degradation, shame and guilt, and the hope is for release from
                                          Message 20 of 22 , May 6, 2005
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Dear Jeff,
                                             
                                            May I come in here with some kind of observation.
                                             
                                            You said:
                                             
                                             >>Yes, we can. When the enquiry
                                            comes from a place of despair,
                                            degradation, shame and guilt,
                                            and the hope is for release
                                            from their grip,>> snip..
                                             
                                            Could it also be that this kind of suffering-based enquiry could have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross suffering has worked itself gradually out of the system there remains the pure suffering of duality in its most delicate form yet to be transcended? 
                                             
                                            I guess what I am suggesting is that there is the totally untrimmed tree to start with and all that is evident are forms of emotional, psychological and mental disturbances.  These no doubt form the bulk of the conscious experience of separation at that level of disorganization.  However, there comes a time along the path of self-enquiry where these things no longer distract the practitioner so heavily from inner silence and some sense of freedom from conditioning and shadow emotional stuff.  This in itself brings a lightness of being, but there is still the residual state of duality present, which could easily again be drawn into mere reactivity and mental distortion.  Yet, at this stage, one is no longer driven by the gross suffering of personal historical stuff.  What is on the table is just the mere sense of duality.  It seems to me that only when this has been recognized as suffering and ways have been found to transcend this fundamental inclination towards mere separateness, can the freedom of which you may be speaking reveal itself.
                                             
                                            Or perhaps we may be talking about different experiences altogether?.  It is really difficult to apprehend the very many manifestations of freedom from where people nowadays speak.  So many claim freedom and enlightement.  I often find it difficult to fully appreciate where they are coming from. In the olden days, and as tradition has it, practioners in the Zen tradition actually often left their teachers, or were sent away to other teachers to have the different levels of their 'enlightenment' verified, disputed, worked on etc. lest the student fools h/herself into truly believing they are fully enlightened while perhaps the finer points might still be missing.  As yet, we have no such kind of 'peer review' in the west relative to our enlightening experiences. So we all seem just have our own relative light to stand or fall by.  This may of course create some serious confusion for many  - and a ready breeding ground for illusion?
                                             
                                            Have a good weekend,
                                            Moller de la Rouviere
                                             
                                             
                                          • Jeff Belyea
                                            ... have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross suffering has worked
                                            Message 21 of 22 , May 6, 2005
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "de la rouviere"
                                              <mollerdlr@t...> wrote:
                                              > Dear Jeff,
                                              >
                                              > May I come in here with some kind of observation.
                                              >
                                              > You said:
                                              >
                                              > >>Yes, we can. When the enquiry
                                              > comes from a place of despair,
                                              > degradation, shame and guilt,
                                              > and the hope is for release
                                              > from their grip,>> snip..
                                              >
                                              > Could it also be that this kind of suffering-based enquiry could
                                              have two rather distinct motivations: 1) the suffering coming from
                                              the things you pointed out above, and 2) when this kind of gross
                                              suffering has worked itself gradually out of the system there remains
                                              the pure suffering of duality in its most delicate form yet to be
                                              transcended?
                                              >
                                              > I guess what I am suggesting is that there is the totally untrimmed
                                              tree to start with and all that is evident are forms of emotional,
                                              psychological and mental disturbances. These no doubt form the bulk
                                              of the conscious experience of separation at that level of
                                              disorganization. However, there comes a time along the path of self-
                                              enquiry where these things no longer distract the practitioner so
                                              heavily from inner silence and some sense of freedom from
                                              conditioning and shadow emotional stuff. This in itself brings a
                                              lightness of being, but there is still the residual state of duality
                                              present, which could easily again be drawn into mere reactivity and
                                              mental distortion. Yet, at this stage, one is no longer driven by
                                              the gross suffering of personal historical stuff. What is on the
                                              table is just the mere sense of duality. It seems to me that only
                                              when this has been recognized as suffering and ways have been found
                                              to transcend this fundamental inclination towards mere separateness,
                                              can the freedom of which you may be speaking reveal itself.
                                              >
                                              > Or perhaps we may be talking about different experiences
                                              altogether?. It is really difficult to apprehend the very many
                                              manifestations of freedom from where people nowadays speak. So many
                                              claim freedom and enlightement. I often find it difficult to fully
                                              appreciate where they are coming from. In the olden days, and as
                                              tradition has it, practioners in the Zen tradition actually often
                                              left their teachers, or were sent away to other teachers to have the
                                              different levels of their 'enlightenment' verified, disputed, worked
                                              on etc. lest the student fools h/herself into truly believing they
                                              are fully enlightened while perhaps the finer points might still be
                                              missing. As yet, we have no such kind of 'peer review' in the west
                                              relative to our enlightening experiences. So we all seem just have
                                              our own relative light to stand or fall by. This may of course
                                              create some serious confusion for many - and a ready breeding ground
                                              for illusion?
                                              >
                                              > Have a good weekend,
                                              > Moller de la Rouviere
                                              > www.spiritualhumanism.co.za

                                              Thank you, Moller.

                                              Of course, we can only
                                              speak authentically
                                              from our own direct
                                              experience. And, yes,
                                              this is a difficult
                                              task - to communicate
                                              our personal experience
                                              clearly and completely.

                                              The gradual working out
                                              of the issues that were
                                              the root causes of
                                              suffering, either through
                                              the grace of time or
                                              with the help of a
                                              therapeutic approach
                                              is distinctly different
                                              from the experience of
                                              Enlightened Awakening, a
                                              "stepping into perfection"
                                              in which the startling
                                              realization of "all is well"
                                              presents itself, as if
                                              beyond anything the mind
                                              has previously thought
                                              or imagined.

                                              The latter mends the
                                              illusion of separation
                                              and sense of duality, and
                                              leaves a residual sweetness
                                              as an undercurrent of
                                              day-to-day consciousness
                                              (as Jody and Greg have
                                              noted in recent posts)
                                              that is above any and all
                                              circumstances of life
                                              events.

                                              So many models attempt
                                              to distinguish between
                                              the therapeutic recovery
                                              and the Enlightened, more
                                              dramatic resolution of
                                              suffering. And even these
                                              have subsets. The savikalpa
                                              and nirvikalpa, and then
                                              sahaj samadhi, come to
                                              mind.

                                              The easing of suffering
                                              through time erasure of
                                              the sting, the temporary
                                              Enlightenment of savikalpa
                                              samadhi, and the seemingly
                                              permanent shift of awareness
                                              and Awakening to the
                                              "Ture Self" of nirvikalpa
                                              samadhi are neat distinctions,
                                              but as you've written,
                                              can cause a lot of confusion
                                              and maybe even delusion.

                                              Additionally, those who
                                              feel compelled, or as
                                              Bruce Morgen writes, are
                                              "choicelessly obligated"
                                              to share the good news
                                              of Enlightenment, seem
                                              to innocenlty over-promise
                                              the availability of this
                                              New Wisdom, Understanding,
                                              Experiential Knowledge.

                                              The Big Guys of Gurudom,
                                              and the relatively unknown
                                              Awakened Teachers, seem
                                              to all offer a model or
                                              point to a path that they
                                              walked, with the expectation
                                              that a similar walk will
                                              produce a similar result.

                                              As Bruce and Jeff Brooks
                                              have written; if this
                                              were so, we would have
                                              millions instead of
                                              hundreds of Awakened
                                              Ones, Buddhas, Christs,
                                              Krisnas, on earth now.

                                              As for the much-hunted
                                              deluded gurus, it seems
                                              that this is a much-overblown
                                              hunt. It is unimaginable
                                              that anyone would step up
                                              to the role without the
                                              experiential knowledge -
                                              for some power trip or
                                              monetary reward. That
                                              hunt is left for others.

                                              Those who fire verbal
                                              bombast at any talk or
                                              writing of Enlightenment
                                              are the more discouraging
                                              and disparaging game in
                                              my crosshairs.

                                              Peace,

                                              Jeff
                                            • Jeff Belyea
                                              ... Hi Jody - Thanks. The dissolving of the idea of me is one of those subtle and difficult to describe aspects of Awakening that has the rational mind hear
                                              Message 22 of 22 , May 9, 2005
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                                <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                                                > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > [snip]
                                                >
                                                > > To those, like Jody, for
                                                > > whom it was more of an
                                                > > "Oh, yeah, now I see it,"
                                                > > and life goes on, there
                                                > > are typically no jimmies,
                                                > > no cherries, but a sweetness
                                                > > nevertheless. Even Greg
                                                > > uses the words "sweetness
                                                > > and light" in his report.
                                                > >
                                                > > (Sorry, Michael.)
                                                > >
                                                > > Sweet as ever,
                                                > >
                                                > > Jeff
                                                >
                                                > Actually, the "seeing" of "it" was accompanied
                                                > by the simultaneous dissolving of the "idea of
                                                > me" as Ramakrishna terms it. Watching that me
                                                > dissolve was almost a shock, but it happened so
                                                > quickly that there wasn't time for a reaction.
                                                >
                                                > This isn't to say I don't have a sense of "me,"
                                                > just that its hold on identity was shattered, and
                                                > has remained so ever since.
                                                >
                                                > I have to admit a sweetness as the result of this,
                                                > although I'm still the same firey asshole I was
                                                > before it all went down.
                                                >
                                                > --jody.


                                                Hi Jody -

                                                Thanks.

                                                The dissolving of the "idea
                                                of me" is one of those subtle
                                                and difficult to describe
                                                aspects of Awakening that
                                                has the rational mind hear
                                                a metal-pipe clang.

                                                That shift out of the personal
                                                sense of "ego" to just "being"
                                                brings the sweet relief from
                                                taking anything personally, and
                                                it not only allows for continuity
                                                of the fiery asshole persona...
                                                it transforms one predisposed
                                                to being a fiery asshole
                                                into a fearless fiery asshole;
                                                taming the lions of fear and
                                                doubt and replacing those with
                                                a hot and sweet pepper undercurrent.

                                                Love, as always,

                                                Jeff
                                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.