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Re: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO THIS SERVICE FOR US?

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  • de la rouviere
    Dear aloke, Yes. I do. Could you just explain somewhat why you are saying this? Hand in hand, Moller de la Rouviere
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 26, 2005
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      Dear aloke,
       
      Yes. I do.
       
      Could you just explain somewhat why you are saying this? 
       
      Hand in hand,
      Moller de la Rouviere
       
      >Mr. de la rouviere,

      >Do you know the meaning of 'carrying coal to >New Castle?

      >Aloke Mukerjee

    • Greg Goode
      Hey Moller, OK, I ve joined Spiritual_humanism, and posted a message about the evolution of the guru concept, which I think chimes in well with your humanistic
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 26, 2005
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        Section 1

        Hey Moller,

         

        OK, I’ve joined Spiritual_humanism, and posted a message about the evolution of the guru concept, which I think chimes in well with your humanistic theme.  I’ll read your site, but I’m at work now and haven’t got to it just yet.  Yes, online counseling is really picking up.  People are more comfortable these days than ever before communicating via electronic media as extensions of themselves.   Face to face is better, but electronically is more helpful than no communication.

         

        Speaking of meditation and electronics (ha!), there have been Christian prayer groups which for decades have done prayer circles, intercessory prayer, supportive prayer, and prayer partnership over the telephone.  It seems the most natural thing in the world once you get used to it.  The phone, then the keyboard, then the BlackBerry – as an extension of the body.  Even the body itself took getting used to, and the relation between one’s Self and the lips, tongue and chin is equivalent to the relationship between one’s Self and a telephone.  All these things are objects appearing to the Self. 

         

        I’ll talk to you offline about your book stuff.  

         

        Amituofo,

         

        --Greg

         


        From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of de la rouviere
        Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 10:35 AM
        To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO THIS SERVICE FOR US?

         

        Greg!

         

        What a surprize!

         

         

        Just started the thing.  Will you be there?  Can you motivate anyone else to join in.  It could turn out to be quite interesting. I have posted one or two things there to get the process going.  Seems slow to take-off.

         

        My book is finally off the press.  When you have a moment you may want to go to: www.spiritualhumanism.co.za   There you will find me, my book, some articles.  One essay may be of particular relevance to you as an online councillor  It is on  Spiritual Psychology.  Please let me know what you think.

         

        Greg, could we exchange links for our sites?  I would love to promote your work on my own site and with my group as well.  Has the add on non-duality webpage generated any business for you?  I am negotiating with Jerry for a similar type of add for my book.  I have to get the thing known out there.  Any suggestions?

         

        Greetings for now,

        Moller.

        ----- Original Message -----

        From: Greg Goode

        Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 2:17 PM

        Subject: RE: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO THIS SERVICE FOR US?

         

        Hey Moller,

         

        Glad to see you back in cyberspace!  What is the name of your new Yahoogroup?

         

        --Greg

         


        From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of de la rouviere
        Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 1:38 AM
        To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO THIS SERVICE FOR US?

         

        Thanks Sandeep. 

         

        Hand in hand,

        Moller.

        ----- Original Message -----

        From: Sandeep

        Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:27 PM

        Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO THIS SERVICE FOR US?

         

        Well said.

         

         

         

         

        ----- Original Message -----

        Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:46 PM

        Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO THIS SERVICE FOR US?

         

         

        Dear friends,

         

        May I just introduce myself as Moller de la Rouviere from South Africa. 

         

         

        Dear Subhash,

         

        Thanks for your passionate proclamation of the values of the true guru.  No doubt, there are genuine guru's around, who are not only there for their own account, but genuinely for the benefit of their students. 

         

        The view to spiritual life you propose is the ancient Hindu view of the master/disciple relationship.  No doubt in many cases it may be useful to the student, but to my understanding the authoritative ralationship between guru and disciple could be equally destructive for the spiritual process.

         

         

        You mentioned:

         

        >> In spirituality we need a Master more than anything else because His
        is a
        living system.His authority is a living authority.His growth is a
        living growth
        which we emulate by our own growth.>>

         

        To my sense, it would seem not unreasonable to suggest that only the mind can seek authority.  Only the mind needs authority.  Only the mind will act on authority. Only the mind will believe it is busy with sosmething larger than itself while it is imitating ('emulating')what it believes the guru is saying.  Only the mind can find solace in authority and believe that this restfulness of authoratative trance will deliver it from the pain of its own separate nature.

         

        Mind and authority have a natural affinity for one another.  The mind cannot go beyond itself through its own endeavors, so it seeks, through the authority of another the light which lies beyond its own inherent darkness - a light it may sense is there, but with which it can never merge. The darkness of mind and the light of freedom are two mutually exclusive living experiences.  No authority has the power and integrity to bridge the inherent schism between mind and freedom from mind. 

         

        An enquiry not based on our own deep understanding of ourselves, and which rests on the authority of the guru, seems to me to lack the integrity necessary to transcend very entity which seeks the authority of the guru. The guru can teach, but his/her teaching has to reflect our own truth and living reality.  Then, if the guru's words are in touch with the disciples reality, no authority is required for the spiritual process to proceed.  The process will then continue as an integral part of the disciple's reality and here no authority can play any part.  On the contrary, my understanding suggests that at this point authority becomes part of the obscurations for the revelation of truth as it does not, and can never, reflect the student to h/herself. 

         

        The spiritual process has to be as subtle as the strategies of Samsara or Mind to hold us within its finely woven web of delusion.  My sense is that at best authority is one of its most subtle threads of this Samsaric web. Take great care my friend.  Many of our Guru's are as deluded as we are.

         

        Hand in hand,

        Moller de la Rouviere

        Author of : Spirituality Without God

         

         

         

      • ser_el_ser
        Dear Mr. Moller, I felt such resonation with the words you have placed here, that I joined your group at once. Hope you a wonderful success. Love, Maria ...
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 26, 2005
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          Dear Mr. Moller,
          I felt such resonation with the words you have placed here, that I joined your
          group at once. Hope you a wonderful success.

          Love,
          Maria


          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "de la rouviere" <
          mollerdlr@t...> wrote:
          > Section 1Greg!
          >
          > What a surprize!
          >
          > My new group is : Spiritual_humanism@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Just started the thing. Will you be there? Can you motivate anyone else to
          join in. It could turn out to be quite interesting. I have posted one or two things
          there to get the process going. Seems slow to take-off.
          >
          > My book is finally off the press. When you have a moment you may want to
          go to: www.spiritualhumanism.co.za There you will find me, my book, some
          articles. One essay may be of particular relevance to you as an online
          councillor It is on Spiritual Psychology. Please let me know what you think.
          >
          > Greg, could we exchange links for our sites? I would love to promote your
          work on my own site and with my group as well. Has the add on non-duality
          webpage generated any business for you? I am negotiating with Jerry for a
          similar type of add for my book. I have to get the thing known out there. Any
          suggestions?
          >
          > Greetings for now,
          > Moller.
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Greg Goode
          > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 2:17 PM
          > Subject: RE: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO
          THIS SERVICE FOR US?
          >
          >
          > Hey Moller,
          >
          >
          >
          > Glad to see you back in cyberspace! What is the name of your new
          Yahoogroup?
          >
          >
          >
          > --Greg
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >
          > From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of de la
          rouviere
          > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 1:38 AM
          > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO
          THIS SERVICE FOR US?
          >
          >
          >
          > Thanks Sandeep.
          >
          >
          >
          > Hand in hand,
          >
          > Moller.
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          >
          > From: Sandeep
          >
          > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:27 PM
          >
          > Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO
          THIS SERVICE FOR US?
          >
          >
          >
          > Well said.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          >
          > From: de la rouviere
          >
          > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:46 PM
          >
          > Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO
          THIS SERVICE FOR US?
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Dear friends,
          >
          >
          >
          > May I just introduce myself as Moller de la Rouviere from South Africa.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Dear Subhash,
          >
          >
          >
          > Thanks for your passionate proclamation of the values of the true guru.
          No doubt, there are genuine guru's around, who are not only there for their
          own account, but genuinely for the benefit of their students.
          >
          >
          >
          > The view to spiritual life you propose is the ancient Hindu view of the
          master/disciple relationship. No doubt in many cases it may be useful to the
          student, but to my understanding the authoritative ralationship between guru
          and disciple could be equally destructive for the spiritual process.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > You mentioned:
          >
          >
          >
          > >> In spirituality we need a Master more than anything else because His
          > is a
          > living system.His authority is a living authority.His growth is a
          > living growth
          > which we emulate by our own growth.>>
          >
          >
          >
          > To my sense, it would seem not unreasonable to suggest that only the
          mind can seek authority. Only the mind needs authority. Only the mind will
          act on authority. Only the mind will believe it is busy with sosmething larger
          than itself while it is imitating ('emulating')what it believes the guru is saying.
          Only the mind can find solace in authority and believe that this restfulness of
          authoratative trance will deliver it from the pain of its own separate nature.
          >
          >
          >
          > Mind and authority have a natural affinity for one another. The mind
          cannot go beyond itself through its own endeavors, so it seeks, through the
          authority of another the light which lies beyond its own inherent darkness - a
          light it may sense is there, but with which it can never merge. The darkness of
          mind and the light of freedom are two mutually exclusive living experiences.
          No authority has the power and integrity to bridge the inherent schism
          between mind and freedom from mind.
          >
          >
          >
          > An enquiry not based on our own deep understanding of ourselves, and
          which rests on the authority of the guru, seems to me to lack the integrity
          necessary to transcend very entity which seeks the authority of the guru. The
          guru can teach, but his/her teaching has to reflect our own truth and living
          reality. Then, if the guru's words are in touch with the disciples reality, no
          authority is required for the spiritual process to proceed. The process will
          then continue as an integral part of the disciple's reality and here no authority
          can play any part. On the contrary, my understanding suggests that at this
          point authority becomes part of the obscurations for the revelation of truth as it
          does not, and can never, reflect the student to h/herself.
          >
          >
          >
          > The spiritual process has to be as subtle as the strategies of Samsara or
          Mind to hold us within its finely woven web of delusion. My sense is that at
          best authority is one of its most subtle threads of this Samsaric web. Take
          great care my friend. Many of our Guru's are as deluded as we are.
          >
          >
          >
          > Hand in hand,
          >
          > Moller de la Rouviere
          >
          > Author of : Spirituality Without God
          >
          > www.Spiritualhumanism.co.za
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meditationsocietyofamerica/
          >
          > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        • de la rouviere
          Thanks, Maria. I also hope you find some stimulating and rewarding posts on this site. Looking forward to see your voice there. Hand in hand, Moller.
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 26, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Thanks, Maria.
             
            I also hope you find some stimulating and rewarding posts on this site.
             
            Looking forward to see your voice there.
             
            Hand in hand,
            Moller.
             
            >Dear Mr. Moller,
            >I felt such resonation with the words you >have placed here, that I joined your
            >group at once. Hope you a wonderful success.

            >Love,
            >Maria

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