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Re: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO THIS SERVICE FOR US?

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  • de la rouviere
    Dear friends, May I just introduce myself as Moller de la Rouviere from South Africa. Dear Subhash, Thanks for your passionate proclamation of the values of
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 25, 2005
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      Dear friends,
       
      May I just introduce myself as Moller de la Rouviere from South Africa. 
       
       
      Dear Subhash,
       
      Thanks for your passionate proclamation of the values of the true guru.  No doubt, there are genuine guru's around, who are not only there for their own account, but genuinely for the benefit of their students. 
       
      The view to spiritual life you propose is the ancient Hindu view of the master/disciple relationship.  No doubt in many cases it may be useful to the student, but to my understanding the authoritative ralationship between guru and disciple could be equally destructive for the spiritual process.
       
       
      You mentioned:
       
      >> In spirituality we need a Master more than anything else because His
      is a
      living system.His authority is a living authority.His growth is a
      living growth
      which we emulate by our own growth.>>
       
      To my sense, it would seem not unreasonable to suggest that only the mind can seek authority.  Only the mind needs authority.  Only the mind will act on authority. Only the mind will believe it is busy with sosmething larger than itself while it is imitating ('emulating')what it believes the guru is saying.  Only the mind can find solace in authority and believe that this restfulness of authoratative trance will deliver it from the pain of its own separate nature.
       
      Mind and authority have a natural affinity for one another.  The mind cannot go beyond itself through its own endeavors, so it seeks, through the authority of another the light which lies beyond its own inherent darkness - a light it may sense is there, but with which it can never merge. The darkness of mind and the light of freedom are two mutually exclusive living experiences.  No authority has the power and integrity to bridge the inherent schism between mind and freedom from mind. 
       
      An enquiry not based on our own deep understanding of ourselves, and which rests on the authority of the guru, seems to me to lack the integrity necessary to transcend very entity which seeks the authority of the guru. The guru can teach, but his/her teaching has to reflect our own truth and living reality.  Then, if the guru's words are in touch with the disciples reality, no authority is required for the spiritual process to proceed.  The process will then continue as an integral part of the disciple's reality and here no authority can play any part.  On the contrary, my understanding suggests that at this point authority becomes part of the obscurations for the revelation of truth as it does not, and can never, reflect the student to h/herself. 
       
      The spiritual process has to be as subtle as the strategies of Samsara or Mind to hold us within its finely woven web of delusion.  My sense is that at best authority is one of its most subtle threads of this Samsaric web. Take great care my friend.  Many of our Guru's are as deluded as we are.
       
      Hand in hand,
      Moller de la Rouviere
      Author of : Spirituality Without God
       
       
    • Sandeep
      Well said. ... From: de la rouviere To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:46 PM Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 25, 2005
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        Well said.
         
         
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:46 PM
        Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO THIS SERVICE FOR US?

         
        Dear friends,
         
        May I just introduce myself as Moller de la Rouviere from South Africa. 
         
         
        Dear Subhash,
         
        Thanks for your passionate proclamation of the values of the true guru.  No doubt, there are genuine guru's around, who are not only there for their own account, but genuinely for the benefit of their students. 
         
        The view to spiritual life you propose is the ancient Hindu view of the master/disciple relationship.  No doubt in many cases it may be useful to the student, but to my understanding the authoritative ralationship between guru and disciple could be equally destructive for the spiritual process.
         
         
        You mentioned:
         
        >> In spirituality we need a Master more than anything else because His
        is a
        living system.His authority is a living authority.His growth is a
        living growth
        which we emulate by our own growth.>>
         
        To my sense, it would seem not unreasonable to suggest that only the mind can seek authority.  Only the mind needs authority.  Only the mind will act on authority. Only the mind will believe it is busy with sosmething larger than itself while it is imitating ('emulating')what it believes the guru is saying.  Only the mind can find solace in authority and believe that this restfulness of authoratative trance will deliver it from the pain of its own separate nature.
         
        Mind and authority have a natural affinity for one another.  The mind cannot go beyond itself through its own endeavors, so it seeks, through the authority of another the light which lies beyond its own inherent darkness - a light it may sense is there, but with which it can never merge. The darkness of mind and the light of freedom are two mutually exclusive living experiences.  No authority has the power and integrity to bridge the inherent schism between mind and freedom from mind. 
         
        An enquiry not based on our own deep understanding of ourselves, and which rests on the authority of the guru, seems to me to lack the integrity necessary to transcend very entity which seeks the authority of the guru. The guru can teach, but his/her teaching has to reflect our own truth and living reality.  Then, if the guru's words are in touch with the disciples reality, no authority is required for the spiritual process to proceed.  The process will then continue as an integral part of the disciple's reality and here no authority can play any part.  On the contrary, my understanding suggests that at this point authority becomes part of the obscurations for the revelation of truth as it does not, and can never, reflect the student to h/herself. 
         
        The spiritual process has to be as subtle as the strategies of Samsara or Mind to hold us within its finely woven web of delusion.  My sense is that at best authority is one of its most subtle threads of this Samsaric web. Take great care my friend.  Many of our Guru's are as deluded as we are.
         
        Hand in hand,
        Moller de la Rouviere
        Author of : Spirituality Without God
         
         
      • de la rouviere
        Thanks Sandeep. Hand in hand, Moller. ... From: Sandeep To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:27 PM Subject: Re:
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 25, 2005
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          Thanks Sandeep. 
           
          Hand in hand,
          Moller.
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Sandeep
          Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:27 PM
          Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO THIS SERVICE FOR US?

          Well said.
           
           
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:46 PM
          Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO THIS SERVICE FOR US?

           
          Dear friends,
           
          May I just introduce myself as Moller de la Rouviere from South Africa. 
           
           
          Dear Subhash,
           
          Thanks for your passionate proclamation of the values of the true guru.  No doubt, there are genuine guru's around, who are not only there for their own account, but genuinely for the benefit of their students. 
           
          The view to spiritual life you propose is the ancient Hindu view of the master/disciple relationship.  No doubt in many cases it may be useful to the student, but to my understanding the authoritative ralationship between guru and disciple could be equally destructive for the spiritual process.
           
           
          You mentioned:
           
          >> In spirituality we need a Master more than anything else because His
          is a
          living system.His authority is a living authority.His growth is a
          living growth
          which we emulate by our own growth.>>
           
          To my sense, it would seem not unreasonable to suggest that only the mind can seek authority.  Only the mind needs authority.  Only the mind will act on authority. Only the mind will believe it is busy with sosmething larger than itself while it is imitating ('emulating')what it believes the guru is saying.  Only the mind can find solace in authority and believe that this restfulness of authoratative trance will deliver it from the pain of its own separate nature.
           
          Mind and authority have a natural affinity for one another.  The mind cannot go beyond itself through its own endeavors, so it seeks, through the authority of another the light which lies beyond its own inherent darkness - a light it may sense is there, but with which it can never merge. The darkness of mind and the light of freedom are two mutually exclusive living experiences.  No authority has the power and integrity to bridge the inherent schism between mind and freedom from mind. 
           
          An enquiry not based on our own deep understanding of ourselves, and which rests on the authority of the guru, seems to me to lack the integrity necessary to transcend very entity which seeks the authority of the guru. The guru can teach, but his/her teaching has to reflect our own truth and living reality.  Then, if the guru's words are in touch with the disciples reality, no authority is required for the spiritual process to proceed.  The process will then continue as an integral part of the disciple's reality and here no authority can play any part.  On the contrary, my understanding suggests that at this point authority becomes part of the obscurations for the revelation of truth as it does not, and can never, reflect the student to h/herself. 
           
          The spiritual process has to be as subtle as the strategies of Samsara or Mind to hold us within its finely woven web of delusion.  My sense is that at best authority is one of its most subtle threads of this Samsaric web. Take great care my friend.  Many of our Guru's are as deluded as we are.
           
          Hand in hand,
          Moller de la Rouviere
          Author of : Spirituality Without God
           
        • Greg Goode
          Hey Moller, Glad to see you back in cyberspace! What is the name of your new Yahoogroup? --Greg ________________________________ From:
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 26, 2005
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            Section 1

            Hey Moller,

             

            Glad to see you back in cyberspace!  What is the name of your new Yahoogroup?

             

            --Greg

             


            From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of de la rouviere
            Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 1:38 AM
            To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO THIS SERVICE FOR US?

             

            Thanks Sandeep. 

             

            Hand in hand,

            Moller.

            ----- Original Message -----

            From: Sandeep

            Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:27 PM

            Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO THIS SERVICE FOR US?

             

            Well said.

             

             

             

             

            ----- Original Message -----

            Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:46 PM

            Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO THIS SERVICE FOR US?

             

             

            Dear friends,

             

            May I just introduce myself as Moller de la Rouviere from South Africa. 

             

             

            Dear Subhash,

             

            Thanks for your passionate proclamation of the values of the true guru.  No doubt, there are genuine guru's around, who are not only there for their own account, but genuinely for the benefit of their students. 

             

            The view to spiritual life you propose is the ancient Hindu view of the master/disciple relationship.  No doubt in many cases it may be useful to the student, but to my understanding the authoritative ralationship between guru and disciple could be equally destructive for the spiritual process.

             

             

            You mentioned:

             

            >> In spirituality we need a Master more than anything else because His
            is a
            living system.His authority is a living authority.His growth is a
            living growth
            which we emulate by our own growth.>>

             

            To my sense, it would seem not unreasonable to suggest that only the mind can seek authority.  Only the mind needs authority.  Only the mind will act on authority. Only the mind will believe it is busy with sosmething larger than itself while it is imitating ('emulating')what it believes the guru is saying.  Only the mind can find solace in authority and believe that this restfulness of authoratative trance will deliver it from the pain of its own separate nature.

             

            Mind and authority have a natural affinity for one another.  The mind cannot go beyond itself through its own endeavors, so it seeks, through the authority of another the light which lies beyond its own inherent darkness - a light it may sense is there, but with which it can never merge. The darkness of mind and the light of freedom are two mutually exclusive living experiences.  No authority has the power and integrity to bridge the inherent schism between mind and freedom from mind. 

             

            An enquiry not based on our own deep understanding of ourselves, and which rests on the authority of the guru, seems to me to lack the integrity necessary to transcend very entity which seeks the authority of the guru. The guru can teach, but his/her teaching has to reflect our own truth and living reality.  Then, if the guru's words are in touch with the disciples reality, no authority is required for the spiritual process to proceed.  The process will then continue as an integral part of the disciple's reality and here no authority can play any part.  On the contrary, my understanding suggests that at this point authority becomes part of the obscurations for the revelation of truth as it does not, and can never, reflect the student to h/herself. 

             

            The spiritual process has to be as subtle as the strategies of Samsara or Mind to hold us within its finely woven web of delusion.  My sense is that at best authority is one of its most subtle threads of this Samsaric web. Take great care my friend.  Many of our Guru's are as deluded as we are.

             

            Hand in hand,

            Moller de la Rouviere

            Author of : Spirituality Without God

             

             

          • Aloke mukerjee
            Mr. de la rouviere, Do you know the meaning of carrying coal to New Castle? Aloke Mukerjee ... Aloke
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 26, 2005
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              Mr. de la rouviere,

              Do you know the meaning of 'carrying coal to New Castle?

              Aloke Mukerjee

              >From: "de la rouviere" <mollerdlr@...>
              >Reply-To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
              >To: <meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com>
              >Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO THIS
              >SERVICE FOR US?
              >Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 07:38:06 +0200
              >
              >Thanks Sandeep.
              >
              >Hand in hand,
              >Moller.
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Sandeep
              > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:27 PM
              > Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO THIS
              >SERVICE FOR US?
              >
              >
              > Well said.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: de la rouviere
              > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:46 PM
              > Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO THIS
              >SERVICE FOR US?
              >
              >
              >
              > Dear friends,
              >
              > May I just introduce myself as Moller de la Rouviere from South
              >Africa.
              >
              >
              > Dear Subhash,
              >
              > Thanks for your passionate proclamation of the values of the true
              >guru. No doubt, there are genuine guru's around, who are not only there
              >for their own account, but genuinely for the benefit of their students.
              >
              > The view to spiritual life you propose is the ancient Hindu view of
              >the master/disciple relationship. No doubt in many cases it may be useful
              >to the student, but to my understanding the authoritative ralationship
              >between guru and disciple could be equally destructive for the spiritual
              >process.
              >
              >
              > You mentioned:
              >
              > >> In spirituality we need a Master more than anything else because
              >His
              > is a
              > living system.His authority is a living authority.His growth is a
              > living growth
              > which we emulate by our own growth.>>
              >
              > To my sense, it would seem not unreasonable to suggest that only the
              >mind can seek authority. Only the mind needs authority. Only the mind
              >will act on authority. Only the mind will believe it is busy with
              >sosmething larger than itself while it is imitating ('emulating')what it
              >believes the guru is saying. Only the mind can find solace in authority
              >and believe that this restfulness of authoratative trance will deliver it
              >from the pain of its own separate nature.
              >
              > Mind and authority have a natural affinity for one another. The mind
              >cannot go beyond itself through its own endeavors, so it seeks, through the
              >authority of another the light which lies beyond its own inherent darkness
              >- a light it may sense is there, but with which it can never merge. The
              >darkness of mind and the light of freedom are two mutually exclusive living
              >experiences. No authority has the power and integrity to bridge the
              >inherent schism between mind and freedom from mind.
              >
              > An enquiry not based on our own deep understanding of ourselves, and
              >which rests on the authority of the guru, seems to me to lack the integrity
              >necessary to transcend very entity which seeks the authority of the guru.
              >The guru can teach, but his/her teaching has to reflect our own truth and
              >living reality. Then, if the guru's words are in touch with the disciples
              >reality, no authority is required for the spiritual process to proceed.
              >The process will then continue as an integral part of the disciple's
              >reality and here no authority can play any part. On the contrary, my
              >understanding suggests that at this point authority becomes part of the
              >obscurations for the revelation of truth as it does not, and can never,
              >reflect the student to h/herself.
              >
              > The spiritual process has to be as subtle as the strategies of Samsara
              >or Mind to hold us within its finely woven web of delusion. My sense is
              >that at best authority is one of its most subtle threads of this Samsaric
              >web. Take great care my friend. Many of our Guru's are as deluded as we
              >are.
              >
              > Hand in hand,
              > Moller de la Rouviere
              > Author of : Spirituality Without God
              > www.Spiritualhumanism.co.za


              Aloke
            • de la rouviere
              Section 1Greg! What a surprize! My new group is : Spiritual_humanism@yahoogroups.com Just started the thing. Will you be there? Can you motivate anyone else
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 26, 2005
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                Section 1
                Greg!
                 
                What a surprize!
                 
                 
                Just started the thing.  Will you be there?  Can you motivate anyone else to join in.  It could turn out to be quite interesting. I have posted one or two things there to get the process going.  Seems slow to take-off.
                 
                My book is finally off the press.  When you have a moment you may want to go to: www.spiritualhumanism.co.za   There you will find me, my book, some articles.  One essay may be of particular relevance to you as an online councillor  It is on  Spiritual Psychology.  Please let me know what you think.
                 
                Greg, could we exchange links for our sites?  I would love to promote your work on my own site and with my group as well.  Has the add on non-duality webpage generated any business for you?  I am negotiating with Jerry for a similar type of add for my book.  I have to get the thing known out there.  Any suggestions?
                 
                Greetings for now,
                Moller.
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 2:17 PM
                Subject: RE: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO THIS SERVICE FOR US?

                Hey Moller,

                 

                Glad to see you back in cyberspace!  What is the name of your new Yahoogroup?

                 

                --Greg

                 


                From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of de la rouviere
                Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 1:38 AM
                To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO THIS SERVICE FOR US?

                 

                Thanks Sandeep. 

                 

                Hand in hand,

                Moller.

                ----- Original Message -----

                From: Sandeep

                Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:27 PM

                Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO THIS SERVICE FOR US?

                 

                Well said.

                 

                 

                 

                 

                ----- Original Message -----

                Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:46 PM

                Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO THIS SERVICE FOR US?

                 

                 

                Dear friends,

                 

                May I just introduce myself as Moller de la Rouviere from South Africa. 

                 

                 

                Dear Subhash,

                 

                Thanks for your passionate proclamation of the values of the true guru.  No doubt, there are genuine guru's around, who are not only there for their own account, but genuinely for the benefit of their students. 

                 

                The view to spiritual life you propose is the ancient Hindu view of the master/disciple relationship.  No doubt in many cases it may be useful to the student, but to my understanding the authoritative ralationship between guru and disciple could be equally destructive for the spiritual process.

                 

                 

                You mentioned:

                 

                >> In spirituality we need a Master more than anything else because His
                is a
                living system.His authority is a living authority.His growth is a
                living growth
                which we emulate by our own growth.>>

                 

                To my sense, it would seem not unreasonable to suggest that only the mind can seek authority.  Only the mind needs authority.  Only the mind will act on authority. Only the mind will believe it is busy with sosmething larger than itself while it is imitating ('emulating')what it believes the guru is saying.  Only the mind can find solace in authority and believe that this restfulness of authoratative trance will deliver it from the pain of its own separate nature.

                 

                Mind and authority have a natural affinity for one another.  The mind cannot go beyond itself through its own endeavors, so it seeks, through the authority of another the light which lies beyond its own inherent darkness - a light it may sense is there, but with which it can never merge. The darkness of mind and the light of freedom are two mutually exclusive living experiences.  No authority has the power and integrity to bridge the inherent schism between mind and freedom from mind. 

                 

                An enquiry not based on our own deep understanding of ourselves, and which rests on the authority of the guru, seems to me to lack the integrity necessary to transcend very entity which seeks the authority of the guru. The guru can teach, but his/her teaching has to reflect our own truth and living reality.  Then, if the guru's words are in touch with the disciples reality, no authority is required for the spiritual process to proceed.  The process will then continue as an integral part of the disciple's reality and here no authority can play any part.  On the contrary, my understanding suggests that at this point authority becomes part of the obscurations for the revelation of truth as it does not, and can never, reflect the student to h/herself. 

                 

                The spiritual process has to be as subtle as the strategies of Samsara or Mind to hold us within its finely woven web of delusion.  My sense is that at best authority is one of its most subtle threads of this Samsaric web. Take great care my friend.  Many of our Guru's are as deluded as we are.

                 

                Hand in hand,

                Moller de la Rouviere

                Author of : Spirituality Without God

                 

                 

              • de la rouviere
                Dear aloke, Yes. I do. Could you just explain somewhat why you are saying this? Hand in hand, Moller de la Rouviere
                Message 7 of 10 , Apr 26, 2005
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                  Dear aloke,
                   
                  Yes. I do.
                   
                  Could you just explain somewhat why you are saying this? 
                   
                  Hand in hand,
                  Moller de la Rouviere
                   
                  >Mr. de la rouviere,

                  >Do you know the meaning of 'carrying coal to >New Castle?

                  >Aloke Mukerjee

                • Greg Goode
                  Hey Moller, OK, I ve joined Spiritual_humanism, and posted a message about the evolution of the guru concept, which I think chimes in well with your humanistic
                  Message 8 of 10 , Apr 26, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Section 1

                    Hey Moller,

                     

                    OK, I’ve joined Spiritual_humanism, and posted a message about the evolution of the guru concept, which I think chimes in well with your humanistic theme.  I’ll read your site, but I’m at work now and haven’t got to it just yet.  Yes, online counseling is really picking up.  People are more comfortable these days than ever before communicating via electronic media as extensions of themselves.   Face to face is better, but electronically is more helpful than no communication.

                     

                    Speaking of meditation and electronics (ha!), there have been Christian prayer groups which for decades have done prayer circles, intercessory prayer, supportive prayer, and prayer partnership over the telephone.  It seems the most natural thing in the world once you get used to it.  The phone, then the keyboard, then the BlackBerry – as an extension of the body.  Even the body itself took getting used to, and the relation between one’s Self and the lips, tongue and chin is equivalent to the relationship between one’s Self and a telephone.  All these things are objects appearing to the Self. 

                     

                    I’ll talk to you offline about your book stuff.  

                     

                    Amituofo,

                     

                    --Greg

                     


                    From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of de la rouviere
                    Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 10:35 AM
                    To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO THIS SERVICE FOR US?

                     

                    Greg!

                     

                    What a surprize!

                     

                     

                    Just started the thing.  Will you be there?  Can you motivate anyone else to join in.  It could turn out to be quite interesting. I have posted one or two things there to get the process going.  Seems slow to take-off.

                     

                    My book is finally off the press.  When you have a moment you may want to go to: www.spiritualhumanism.co.za   There you will find me, my book, some articles.  One essay may be of particular relevance to you as an online councillor  It is on  Spiritual Psychology.  Please let me know what you think.

                     

                    Greg, could we exchange links for our sites?  I would love to promote your work on my own site and with my group as well.  Has the add on non-duality webpage generated any business for you?  I am negotiating with Jerry for a similar type of add for my book.  I have to get the thing known out there.  Any suggestions?

                     

                    Greetings for now,

                    Moller.

                    ----- Original Message -----

                    From: Greg Goode

                    Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 2:17 PM

                    Subject: RE: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO THIS SERVICE FOR US?

                     

                    Hey Moller,

                     

                    Glad to see you back in cyberspace!  What is the name of your new Yahoogroup?

                     

                    --Greg

                     


                    From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of de la rouviere
                    Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 1:38 AM
                    To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO THIS SERVICE FOR US?

                     

                    Thanks Sandeep. 

                     

                    Hand in hand,

                    Moller.

                    ----- Original Message -----

                    From: Sandeep

                    Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:27 PM

                    Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO THIS SERVICE FOR US?

                     

                    Well said.

                     

                     

                     

                     

                    ----- Original Message -----

                    Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:46 PM

                    Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO THIS SERVICE FOR US?

                     

                     

                    Dear friends,

                     

                    May I just introduce myself as Moller de la Rouviere from South Africa. 

                     

                     

                    Dear Subhash,

                     

                    Thanks for your passionate proclamation of the values of the true guru.  No doubt, there are genuine guru's around, who are not only there for their own account, but genuinely for the benefit of their students. 

                     

                    The view to spiritual life you propose is the ancient Hindu view of the master/disciple relationship.  No doubt in many cases it may be useful to the student, but to my understanding the authoritative ralationship between guru and disciple could be equally destructive for the spiritual process.

                     

                     

                    You mentioned:

                     

                    >> In spirituality we need a Master more than anything else because His
                    is a
                    living system.His authority is a living authority.His growth is a
                    living growth
                    which we emulate by our own growth.>>

                     

                    To my sense, it would seem not unreasonable to suggest that only the mind can seek authority.  Only the mind needs authority.  Only the mind will act on authority. Only the mind will believe it is busy with sosmething larger than itself while it is imitating ('emulating')what it believes the guru is saying.  Only the mind can find solace in authority and believe that this restfulness of authoratative trance will deliver it from the pain of its own separate nature.

                     

                    Mind and authority have a natural affinity for one another.  The mind cannot go beyond itself through its own endeavors, so it seeks, through the authority of another the light which lies beyond its own inherent darkness - a light it may sense is there, but with which it can never merge. The darkness of mind and the light of freedom are two mutually exclusive living experiences.  No authority has the power and integrity to bridge the inherent schism between mind and freedom from mind. 

                     

                    An enquiry not based on our own deep understanding of ourselves, and which rests on the authority of the guru, seems to me to lack the integrity necessary to transcend very entity which seeks the authority of the guru. The guru can teach, but his/her teaching has to reflect our own truth and living reality.  Then, if the guru's words are in touch with the disciples reality, no authority is required for the spiritual process to proceed.  The process will then continue as an integral part of the disciple's reality and here no authority can play any part.  On the contrary, my understanding suggests that at this point authority becomes part of the obscurations for the revelation of truth as it does not, and can never, reflect the student to h/herself. 

                     

                    The spiritual process has to be as subtle as the strategies of Samsara or Mind to hold us within its finely woven web of delusion.  My sense is that at best authority is one of its most subtle threads of this Samsaric web. Take great care my friend.  Many of our Guru's are as deluded as we are.

                     

                    Hand in hand,

                    Moller de la Rouviere

                    Author of : Spirituality Without God

                     

                     

                     

                  • ser_el_ser
                    Dear Mr. Moller, I felt such resonation with the words you have placed here, that I joined your group at once. Hope you a wonderful success. Love, Maria ...
                    Message 9 of 10 , Apr 26, 2005
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                      Dear Mr. Moller,
                      I felt such resonation with the words you have placed here, that I joined your
                      group at once. Hope you a wonderful success.

                      Love,
                      Maria


                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "de la rouviere" <
                      mollerdlr@t...> wrote:
                      > Section 1Greg!
                      >
                      > What a surprize!
                      >
                      > My new group is : Spiritual_humanism@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Just started the thing. Will you be there? Can you motivate anyone else to
                      join in. It could turn out to be quite interesting. I have posted one or two things
                      there to get the process going. Seems slow to take-off.
                      >
                      > My book is finally off the press. When you have a moment you may want to
                      go to: www.spiritualhumanism.co.za There you will find me, my book, some
                      articles. One essay may be of particular relevance to you as an online
                      councillor It is on Spiritual Psychology. Please let me know what you think.
                      >
                      > Greg, could we exchange links for our sites? I would love to promote your
                      work on my own site and with my group as well. Has the add on non-duality
                      webpage generated any business for you? I am negotiating with Jerry for a
                      similar type of add for my book. I have to get the thing known out there. Any
                      suggestions?
                      >
                      > Greetings for now,
                      > Moller.
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Greg Goode
                      > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 2:17 PM
                      > Subject: RE: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO
                      THIS SERVICE FOR US?
                      >
                      >
                      > Hey Moller,
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Glad to see you back in cyberspace! What is the name of your new
                      Yahoogroup?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --Greg
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      >
                      > From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of de la
                      rouviere
                      > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 1:38 AM
                      > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO
                      THIS SERVICE FOR US?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Thanks Sandeep.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hand in hand,
                      >
                      > Moller.
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      >
                      > From: Sandeep
                      >
                      > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:27 PM
                      >
                      > Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO
                      THIS SERVICE FOR US?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Well said.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      >
                      > From: de la rouviere
                      >
                      > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:46 PM
                      >
                      > Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] WHY DOES A MASTER DO
                      THIS SERVICE FOR US?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Dear friends,
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > May I just introduce myself as Moller de la Rouviere from South Africa.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Dear Subhash,
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Thanks for your passionate proclamation of the values of the true guru.
                      No doubt, there are genuine guru's around, who are not only there for their
                      own account, but genuinely for the benefit of their students.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > The view to spiritual life you propose is the ancient Hindu view of the
                      master/disciple relationship. No doubt in many cases it may be useful to the
                      student, but to my understanding the authoritative ralationship between guru
                      and disciple could be equally destructive for the spiritual process.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > You mentioned:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > >> In spirituality we need a Master more than anything else because His
                      > is a
                      > living system.His authority is a living authority.His growth is a
                      > living growth
                      > which we emulate by our own growth.>>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To my sense, it would seem not unreasonable to suggest that only the
                      mind can seek authority. Only the mind needs authority. Only the mind will
                      act on authority. Only the mind will believe it is busy with sosmething larger
                      than itself while it is imitating ('emulating')what it believes the guru is saying.
                      Only the mind can find solace in authority and believe that this restfulness of
                      authoratative trance will deliver it from the pain of its own separate nature.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Mind and authority have a natural affinity for one another. The mind
                      cannot go beyond itself through its own endeavors, so it seeks, through the
                      authority of another the light which lies beyond its own inherent darkness - a
                      light it may sense is there, but with which it can never merge. The darkness of
                      mind and the light of freedom are two mutually exclusive living experiences.
                      No authority has the power and integrity to bridge the inherent schism
                      between mind and freedom from mind.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > An enquiry not based on our own deep understanding of ourselves, and
                      which rests on the authority of the guru, seems to me to lack the integrity
                      necessary to transcend very entity which seeks the authority of the guru. The
                      guru can teach, but his/her teaching has to reflect our own truth and living
                      reality. Then, if the guru's words are in touch with the disciples reality, no
                      authority is required for the spiritual process to proceed. The process will
                      then continue as an integral part of the disciple's reality and here no authority
                      can play any part. On the contrary, my understanding suggests that at this
                      point authority becomes part of the obscurations for the revelation of truth as it
                      does not, and can never, reflect the student to h/herself.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > The spiritual process has to be as subtle as the strategies of Samsara or
                      Mind to hold us within its finely woven web of delusion. My sense is that at
                      best authority is one of its most subtle threads of this Samsaric web. Take
                      great care my friend. Many of our Guru's are as deluded as we are.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hand in hand,
                      >
                      > Moller de la Rouviere
                      >
                      > Author of : Spirituality Without God
                      >
                      > www.Spiritualhumanism.co.za
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meditationsocietyofamerica/
                      >
                      > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                    • de la rouviere
                      Thanks, Maria. I also hope you find some stimulating and rewarding posts on this site. Looking forward to see your voice there. Hand in hand, Moller.
                      Message 10 of 10 , Apr 26, 2005
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                        Thanks, Maria.
                         
                        I also hope you find some stimulating and rewarding posts on this site.
                         
                        Looking forward to see your voice there.
                         
                        Hand in hand,
                        Moller.
                         
                        >Dear Mr. Moller,
                        >I felt such resonation with the words you >have placed here, that I joined your
                        >group at once. Hope you a wonderful success.

                        >Love,
                        >Maria

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