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  • medit8ionsociety
    ... Great question! I think the answer is that you are looking at 2 different types of experiences. Here s an excellent article by the great Swami Sivananda
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 12, 2005
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      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "dabrown1973"
      <daleryukyu@p...> wrote:
      >
      > hi ya all first of all, im glad their is a website devoted to one of
      > the most important things in life to me. i have experimented with a
      > variety of meditation techniques, the ones i have focused on
      > primarily is "feeling the body" and awareness of body.my first few
      > months was devoted to feeling the breath enter and leave, and it was
      > what got me hooked, but i found i couldnt do this while engaged in
      > other activities, and since i beleive its important to meditate
      > throughout the day, rather than just 20 minutes in the morning, i
      > have since moved on. for some reason, when i feel the body throughout
      > the day, i get a dull headache right where the "3rd eye" is located.
      > anybody have any info on that? secondly,i love krishnamurtis
      > teaching, as well as eckhart tolle, and have found both have been
      > beneficial. there are areas where their teaching conflict, and i
      > wondered if anybody with more clarity would want to respond on it.
      > both have written about watching your thoughts, being aware of your
      > reactions, however, tolle, as well as many others, states that when
      > you watch a thought, you are aware of your thought being there, and
      > here you are watching it(you are separate from your thought) but
      > krishnamurti states that division is the problem, that you are your
      > thoughts. anybody have any ideas, opinions on this?

      Great question! I think the answer is that you are
      looking at 2 different types of experiences. Here's
      an excellent article by the great Swami Sivananda that
      deals perfectly with these two perspectives as well
      as the other states that all are part of the divine
      Raja Yoga Samadhi. It is fairly long, but well worth
      the reading time as it also offers an opportunity
      to better understand some of the Sanskrit termonology
      that often is used to discuss these higher realms of
      awareness. Enjoy!..........

      Raja Yoga Samadhi

      By
      Sri Swami Sivananda

      According to Raja Yoga, Samadhi is of two kinds, viz., Samprajnata and
      Asamprajnata. In the former, the seeds of Samskaras are not destroyed.
      In the latter, the Samskaras are fried or annihilated in toto. That is
      the reason why the former is called Sabija Samadhi (with seeds) and
      the latter as Nirbija Samadhi (without seeds or Samskaras).
      Samprajnata Samadhi leads to Asamprajnata Samadhi.

      The Samprajnata Samadhi is also known by the name Savikalpa Samadhi or
      Sabija Samadhi. This Samadhi brings perfect knowledge of the object of
      meditation. The mind continuously and to the exclusion of all other
      objects assumes the nature and becomes one with the object of its
      contemplation. The Yogi attains all the powers of controlling the
      nature in this Samadhi.

      The Samprajnata Samadhi is of four kinds, viz., Savitarka, Savichara,
      Sananda and Asmita Samadhi. All these Samadhis have something to
      grasp. There is Alambana or argumentation or questioning. They give
      intensive joy but they are not the best and finest forms of Samadhi.
      They cover the gross or the subtle elements of nature and the organs
      of sense. They give you the direct knowledge of the elements, objects
      and instruments of knowledge and some freedom.

      These stages are in the form of steps of an ascending staircase. To
      begin with, meditation should be done on a gross form. When you
      advance in this meditation, you can take to abstract meditation, or
      meditation on subtle things or ideas. Mind should be gradually
      disciplined and trained in meditation. It cannot all at once enter
      into the highest Asamprajnata Samadhi or that which constitutes the
      highest subtle essence. That is the reason why Patanjali Maharshi has
      prescribed the practice of various kinds of lower Samadhis. When the
      mind is extremely attached to gross objects, it is not possible to fix
      it on subtle objects all at once. There must be gradual ascent in the
      ladder of Yoga. You should place your footstep cautiously in each rung
      of the ladder. You should pass through successive stages before you
      attain the highest Asamprajnata or Nirvikalpa Samadhi. But
      Yoga-Bhrashtas who have passed through the lower stages in their
      previous birth can attain to the highest stage at the very outset
      through the grace of the Lord. If the Yogic student had reached the
      higher stage, he need not revert to the lower stages.

      All the forms of Samprajnata Samadhi are Salambana Yoga (with support)
      and Sabija Yoga (with seed of Samskara). The Yogins enjoy a form of
      freedom. Dharma Megha in Raja Yoga means "the cloud of virtue". Just
      as clouds shower rain, so also this Dharma Megha Samadhi showers on
      the Yogins omniscience and all sorts of Siddhis or powers. The Yogi
      enjoys a form of freedom. Therefore, this Samadhi is called the
      Showerer or cloud (Megha) of virtue (Dharma). The Yogi enjoys expanded
      vision of God.

      Ritambhara, Prajnaloka, Prasannavahita are the three stages or
      Bhumikas of Samprajnata Samadhi. In Ritambhara the content of the
      mental Vritti is Satchidananda. There is still a separate knower. You
      get Yathartha Jnana or real wisdom. In the second, every kind of
      Avarana (veiling) is removed. The third state is the state of peace in
      which the mind is destitute of all mental modifications. The knowledge
      that you get from testimony and inference is above objects of the
      world; but the knowledge that you obtain from Samadhi is Divine
      Knowledge. It is super-sensual, intuitive knowledge where reason,
      inference and testimony cannot go.

      Savitarka and Nirvitarka Samadhis

      Savitarka Samadhi is Samadhi with reasoning. It is a superficial
      attempt of the mind to grasp any object. In this Samadhi, Sabda
      (sound), Artha (meaning), Jnana (knowledge) are mixed up.

      The. aspirant can meditate on the body of Virat or Lord Vishnu with
      four hands or Lord Krishna with flute in hand or any ordinary object.
      He will obtain the direct perception of all the peculiar features, the
      excellences (Gunas) and defects (Doshas) of the object of meditation.
      He will have complete knowledge of the object. He will be endowed with
      all the features of the object unheard of and unthought of. He will
      obtain these through Savitarka Samadhi. The Yogic student meditates on
      the object again and again by isolating it from other objects.

      You can meditate on the gross elements also. You will gain power over
      them through intense meditation. The elements will reveal to you their
      truths.

      Just as the new archer first aims at big object only and then at
      smaller ones gradually, so also the beginner in Yoga concentrates on
      the gross objects such as the five Maha Bhutas, Lord Hari with four
      hands, and then on subtle ones. In this manner the grasp of the
      objects by the mind becomes subtle. A Yogi directly perceives the real
      body of the Lord Vishnu as He lives in Vaikuntha, by the force of his
      meditation although he remains at a great distance from the Lord.

      In Savitarka Samadhi concentration is practised on gross objects and
      their nature in relation to time and space. This is a gross form of
      Samadhi. When the Yogi meditates on the elements as they are by taking
      them out of time and space, then it is called Nirvitarka Samadhi
      without questioning or reasoning or argumentation. This is a subtle
      form of Samadhi.

      In Savitarka there is Vikalpa or fanciful notion of word (Sabda),
      object (Artha) and idea (Jneya). There is no such notion in Nirvitarka
      Samadhi. There are three factors in the comprehension of a word, e.g.,
      cow—(1) cow, the word, (2) cow, the object, (3) cow, the idea in the
      mind. When the meditator imagines these three to be one and the same,
      it is an instance of Vikalpa or fanciful notion of the word, object
      and idea.

      Savichara and Nirvichara Samadhis

      If you meditate on the subtle Tanmatras (subtle elements of matter)
      and their nature in relation to time and space, it is Savichara
      Samadhi with deliberation or discrimination. This is Sukshma or
      subtle. This is subtler than Savitarka and Nirvitarka Samadhis.
      Tanmatras are the root-elements or Sukshma Bhutas. The five gross
      elements are derived from the Tanmatras through the process of
      quintuplication or mixing. Meditation goes a step higher in this
      Samadhi than in the previous one. The Yogi will get knowledge of the
      Tanmatras. He will obtain control over the Tanmatras. He will get the
      direct perception of the various subtle forms of the object
      culminating in primordial matter or Mula Prakriti.

      The word `subtle' indicates cause in general. It stands for all such
      causal principles as the Tanmatras or the primary elements egoism or
      Ahankara, Mahat Tattva or intellect and Prakriti.

      There is mysterious power, Achintya Sakti, in meditation. Although
      ordinary meditation is possible only in ways already heard and thought
      of, yet even such things as have not been heard or thought of may be
      directly cognised by the force of meditation.

      There is no difference between the cause and products. All gross
      objects are the products of the twenty-six principles. They are really
      of the same nature as that of twenty-six principles.

      If you meditate on the subtle Tanmatras by taking them out of time and
      space by thinking as they are, it will constitute Nirvichara Samadhi
      without deliberation or discrimination. As there is pure Sattva only
      in the mind owing to the eradication of Rajas and Tamas the Yogi
      enjoys internal peace or contentment (Adhyatmic Prasada) and
      subjective luminosity. The mind is very steady.

      Sananda Samadhi or the Blissful Samadhi

      Now we proceed to describe the joyful Samadhi. This is joyous Samadhi
      and it gives intense joy. In this Samadhi the gross and the five
      element's are given up. The Yogi meditates on the Sattvic mind itself.
      He thinks of the mind which is devoid of Rajas and Tamas. There arises
      in the Yogi a peculiar perception in the form of intense joy through
      this type of Samadhi.

      Asmita Samadhi

      In this Samadhi the mind is the object of meditation. It bestows the
      knowledge of the subject of all experiences. The Self knows the Self.
      The Sattvic state of the ego only remains. The Yogi can think himself
      now as without his gross body. He feels that he has a fine body. This
      Samadhi takes the Yogi to the root of experiences and shows the way to
      freedom.

      The Yogi feels "I am (Asmi) other than the body". He experiences that
      the gross, subtle and joyous Samadhis are not the highest Samadhis. He
      finds defects in them also and gets disgusted with them. He proceeds
      further and practises Asmita Samadhi. He experiences
      Self-consciousness (Asmita). He experiences a feeling of `enough' and
      develops dispassion in its highest form (Para Vairagya). This finally
      leads to the development of Asamprajnata Samadhi.

      Asamprajnata Samadhi or Nirbija or Nirbikalpa Samadhi

      This is the highest form of Samadhi. This comes after Viveka-khyati or
      the final discrimination between Prakriti and Purusha. All the seeds
      or impressions are burnt by the fire of knowledge. This Samadhi brings
      Kaivalya or Absolute Independence. This is the culmination or climax
      of Yoga, or final Prasankhyana which bestows the supreme, undying
      peace or knowledge. The Yogi enjoys the transcendental glories of the
      Self and has perfect freedom from the mental life. The sense of time
      is replaced by a sense of Eternity.

      In this Samadhi, there is neither Triputi nor Alambana. The Samskaras
      are fried in toto. This Samadhi alone can destroy birth end death and
      bring in highest knowledge and bliss.

      When you get full success or perfection (Siddhi) in Raja yoga by
      entering into Asamprajnata Samadhi (Nirvikalpa State), all the
      Samskaras and Vasanas which bring on rebirths are totally fried up.
      All Vrittis or mental modifications that arise form the mind-lake come
      under restraint. The five afflictions, viz., Avidya (ignorance),
      Asmita (egoism), Raga-dvesha (love and hatred) and Abhinivesha
      (clinging to life) are destroyed and the bonds of Karma are
      annihilated. This Samadhi brings on highest good (Nihsreyasa) and
      exaltation (Abhyudaya). It gives Moksha (deliverance form the wheel of
      births and deaths). With the advent of the knowledge of the Self,
      ignorance vanishes. With the disappearance of the root-cause, viz.,
      ignorance, egoism, etc., also disappear.

      In the Asamprajnata Samadhi, all the modifications of the mind are
      completely restrained. All the residual Samskaras are totally fried
      up. This is the highest Samadhi of Raja yoga. This is also known as
      Nirbija Samadhi (without seeds) and Nirvikalpa Samadhi.

      In this Samadhi, the Yogi sees without eyes, tastes without tongue,
      hears without ears, smells without nose and touches without skin. His
      Sankalpas can work miracles. He simply wills and everything comes into
      Being. This state is described in Taittariya Aranyaka—I-ii-5: "The
      blind man pierced the pearl, the fingerless put a thread into it; the
      neckless wore it and the touchless praised it."

      Eventually, the Purusha realises His own native state of Divine glory,
      Isolation or absolute Independence (Kaivalya). He has completely
      disconnected himself from the Prakriti and its effects. He feels his
      absolute freedom and attains Kaivalya, the highest goal of Raja Yoga.
      All Klesha Karmas are destroyed now. The Gunas having fulfilled their
      objects of Bhoga and Apavarga now entirely cease to act. He has
      simultaneous knowledge now. The past and the future are blended into
      the present. Everything is "Now". Everything is "Here". He has
      transcended time and space. The sum-total of all knowledge of the
      three worlds, of all secular sciences is nothing but mere husk when
      compared to the Infinite knowledge of a Yogi who has attained
      Kaivalya. Glory, glory to such exalted Yogins!
    • sandeep chatterjee
      ... An excellent poser.:-) Awareness of the arising thought, it s travel in time and it s dissipation........is not another thought. If it is....then that s
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 13, 2005
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        medit8ionsociety <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "dabrown1973"
        <daleryukyu@p...> wrote:
        >
        > hi ya all  first of all, im glad their is a website devoted to one of
        > the most important things in life to me. i have experimented with a
        > variety of meditation techniques, the ones i have focused on
        > primarily is "feeling the body" and awareness of body.my first few
        > months was devoted to feeling the breath enter and leave, and it was
        > what got me hooked, but i found i couldnt do this while engaged in
        > other activities, and since i beleive its important to meditate
        > throughout the day, rather than just 20 minutes in the morning, i
        > have since moved on. for some reason, when i feel the body throughout
        > the day, i get a dull headache right where the "3rd eye" is located.
        > anybody have any info on that? secondly,i love krishnamurtis
        > teaching, as well as eckhart tolle, and have found both have been
        > beneficial. there are areas where their teaching conflict, and i
        > wondered if anybody with more clarity would want to respond on it.
        > both have written about watching your thoughts, being aware of your
        > reactions, however, tolle, as well as many others, states that when
        > you watch a thought, you are aware of your thought being there, and
        > here you are watching it(you are separate from your thought) but
        > krishnamurti states that division is the problem, that you are your
        > thoughts. anybody have any ideas, opinions on this?

         

        An excellent poser.:-)

        Awareness of the arising thought, it's travel in time and it's dissipation........is not another thought.

        If it is....then that's mentation and the entire hoopla is back.

        Jidu was talking about mentation, where essentially the self is just the thought-in-movement.

        For example, the sense of an individual self, as separated from other-self,..... is essentially the thought of it.

        In the state of dreaming it is the dreamt-self which is the consequentual inference of the dreamt-thought.

        In the state of deep sleep, there is no thought, (including the thought "that there is no thought"), and ergo no self.

        In awareness of thought, there is no "you" being aware of thought.

        There is awareness, in which arises the biological sentient object through which "fashioned" thought, fashioned by the intrinsic-conditioning-in-the-moment-in-the object....

        ...arises, runs for a duration and dissipates.

        As,..... arises, runs for a duration and dissipates....the very object acting as a conduiting instrument for thought.

         

         

      • sandeep chatterjee
        Even today modern science is struggling with the why and how of the working of the cerebral cortex. As neuro-biologists Eccles puts it, we are compelled to
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 13, 2005
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          Even today modern science is struggling with the why and how of the working of the cerebral cortex.
           
          As neuro-biologists Eccles puts it, "we are compelled to consider the behaviour of the individual particles of matter  in the active cerebral cortex as something "outside physics".

           
          What all this amounts to is that we are still asking the question that Aristotle was asking two thousand years ago:
           
           
           
          "How is the mind attached to the body?
           
          What is the nature of the thinker?"
           
           
           
           
           
          The endeavour to discover the nature of thought is basically misconceived .
           
          Because that which is thinking and this which is thought about, are one and the same.
           
          Because there can be no subject-object relationship in such quest.
           
          Because that which is sought is this which is seeking.
           
          In the absence of a mirror, how can the eye see itself?
           

          The development of a newborn infant is a fascinating panorama.
           
          A single cell, during the period of nine months has progressed through the successive embryonic states  and has culminated into a human personality.
           
          The process of development automatically continues without interruption even after birth.
           
          In the course of the next few days, weeks and months the infant rapidly increases its weight  and develops the other capacities gradually, including the mental capacities which create in the infant the sense of the exercise of will and volition.
           
           
          This development of the infant, like that of a plant, is not really through an outside source but its own inherent energy contained in that single cell which has thus developed.
           
           
          This inherent vital force within the growing embryo contains the self- regulating properties which ensure that the end-product will be according to norm in spite of any accidental hazards that may arise during the course of the development.
           
          It is the genetic code of the fertilized egg and the impacting conditioning which that fertilized egg received through it's existence.....
           
          ......which determines the potential of the new individual .......and its actualization.

           
          Yet one is so thoroughly identified with one's body....... that to the posed question....... "apart from your name and form, .......who (or what) are you?"....
           
          ...is met with derision, bewilderment and even fear, which expresses as defensiveness.
           
           
           
          We are accustomed to think of our body as that solid, material stuff with a certain volume and weight which is susceptible to pain and pleasure and ultimate decay and death.
           
          But is the body really solid?
           
          However solid the body may appear to be, the established fact remains that it is from a single cell that the body has been developed.
           
          The electron-scanning microscope, with a magnification of several thousand times, shows the human body.......... as a sort of phantasy, ......
           
          ......a seascape as different from our perception of the body with our eyes as could possibly be imagined.
           
          The pores of the skin open like ocean caves.
           
          A bundle of nerve fibers curving its way across a section of muscle tissues appears like a sea serpent lying on a giant walrus
           
          What appears as thousands of tadpoles swimming furiously against the current are,....... sperm cells struggling for survival against incredible odds.
           
           
          The whole .........presenting a sea spectacle.
           
           
           
          Based on what the electron microscope has so far revealed, it would seem to indicate........ the "solid" flesh dissolving into a sort of condensed  vapour, muscle fiber assuming a distinctly crystalline aspect showing that it is made of long spiral molecules interconnected and held in place by imperceptible waves pulsing many trillions of times a second.
           
           
          Within molecules would be atoms, their interiors veiled by vague clouds of electrons.
           
          Then the shell dissolves and it is all emptiness.
           
           
          Deep, deep within that emptiness, the subatomic physicist tells us, is a nucleus ..........
           
          ........which being an oscillating field, begins to dissolve, showing further organized fields, protons, neutrons
           
          and even smaller particles, each of which also dissolves into nothing but the rhythm of the universal pulse.
           
           
          This pulsating rhythm .......is what the mystic has apperceived.
           
           
          In considering the question of what the body is made of, the ineluctable conclusion is that there is no solidity at all either at the most sublime level of the body, or at heart of the Universe.
           
          This would seem less astonishing if it could remember that the characters in your last night sleep dream appeared equally solid.
           
           
           

          The compact nucleus at the very heart of the atom, then, is nothing solid but rather a dynamic pattern of concentrated energy throbbing and vibrating
          at incredible speeds, beyond imagination.
           
           
           
          A veritable frenzied dance, the Dance of Shiva, in which creation and destruction take place continuously and simultaneously.
           
          As particle physicist James Jeans avers....... the universe is mental rather than material.
           
           
           
          In ancient times, the mystic declared......... the glorious or worthless external world (depending on the innate conditioning viewing that world) 
           
          as "chittamatra (mind-stuff only) ....
           
          ...or vijnaptimatra (representation only)
           
           
           
           
          The astronomer also presents us with the same beguiling pointing when he observes.....
           
          .....that when galaxies sometimes meet head-on,
           
          all they do is pass through each other like two summer clouds.
           
           
           
          The human body, like all living objects, has its own electromagnetic field, and therefore, we are affected to a varying extent one way or another by the pulsating fields that criss-cross one another throughout space, .....
           
          ....not only by the nearer events like the turning of the earth on its axis, the tides and the seasons, but even by the distant solar flares known as sunspots.
           
           
           
          It would seem that as the mystic has always held .........each one of us is in direct or indirect relationship with all that is.
           
           
           
          It is through the senses that the various organized fields of rhythm
           
          (that apparently constitute the totality of an individual entity) are connected with
           
          one another
           
          and with the rhythms of the entire universe.

          It would thus seem that there cannot be a separate personal identity ......
           
          ....if every human body is nothing but emptiness, a concentrated pattern of energy.
           
           
           
           
          But the wonder that which-is.........is........ has so contrived that each emptiness,
           
          each individual body and each personal identity has an essential characteristic
           
          that distinguishes it from all others.
           
           
          The botanist tells us that every leaf on a tree is in some way or another at least slightly different from all others.
           
          The chance of two fingerprints being identical has been computed at less than one in sixty billion.
           
          Brain wave patterns are observed to be clearly distinctive.

          An effective voiceprint definitely identifies the speaker through the recorded voice frequencies.
           
          A new born baby's breathing pattern is said to be as distinctive as a fingerprint.
           
           
          It would seem therefore that the evolutionary process itself has ensured individual variations within each species by means of a series of rhythmic wave functions composing a personalized inner pulse that synchronized in varying designs with everything else and everyone else in the world.
           
           
           
          It is this inner pulse and the extent of its synchronity with the other person or thing which produces instant attraction, revulsion or total indifference.
           
           
           
          The all-in-one-ness of the mystic has been now clearly accepted by the modern scientist.

          A formulation made by the physicist J.S. Bell- Bell's Theorem- particularly emphasizes that "no theory of reality compatible with quantum theory can require spatially separated events to be separate".
           

          This means, simply, that ever events distant or local.....are interconnected.
           
           
          What is more, it already implies that each electron must know what every other electron in the universe is doing ....
           
          ..in order to know what it itself has to do every moment.
           
          It further implies that each subatomic particle within is in touch with all that IS.
           
           
           
          The mystic intuitively understands the problem and the solution that is contained in the problem:
           
           
           
          All there is, is the primal ENERGY which is nothing other than CONSCIOUSNESS ....
           
          ...which has produced on or within itself the MIND-STUFF.....

          of the universe (chittamatra)
           
          as a representation only (Vijnaptimatra).
           

          In other words, all there is, is CONSCIOUSNESS which in the case of sentient beings may be called SENTIENCE, an aspect of consciousness which enables it to cognize other sentient beings.
           
           
           
          This is indeed the core of any "real" teaching.
           

           
          If the body is scientifically seen as emptiness, a throbbing energy, the question would arise:
           
          What then is a "sentient being"?
           
          The question answers itself.
           
          In the sentient being, if the being is merely emptiness, then the being that is sensorially perceptible .........must be a mere appearance like a mirage on the sands, and the "sentient being" must be what remains....... SENTIENCE.
           
           
           
           
          If the physical being is merely an appearance, an object, a phenomenon, it is quite obvious that it cannot be expected to perform any action as an independent entity on its own initiative.
           
           
          The fact is illustrated by the Chinese Master Chuang-Tzu's story of the sow who died while her piglets were suckling- the little piglets just left the inanimate body.
           
          The body became inanimate because the animus was no longer within.
           
           
          This animus, the sentience in the body, regarded by the mystic as the consciousness ( or the "Heart" or the "Mind")
           
          which is not the personal element in each sentient being ........
           
          .....but the universal, primal energy which pulsates in all sentient beings
           
          and indeed in every particle in the entire universe.
           
          The biological object........as "a" particle of the Universe...........is ...
           
          ...."an" expression of the pulsation.
           
           
           
          This impersonal or universal consciousness is, therefore, what the sentient being really is.
           
          And, indeed, all there is, all that exists, is nothing but the universal consciousness.
           

          This impersonal consciousness, in its static state of rest, is the Absolute unmanifest subject.
           
          When movement arises in it, it becomes conscious of itself............."I AM".....
           
          ... and in that first split-second of awareness the universal consciousness concurrently comes
           
          into manifestation by objectifying its pure subjectivity into the duality of subject and object.
           
           
           
           
          When the manifestation occurs, the universal or impersonal consciousness becomes identified with each object, and thus arises the concept of the egoistic "me " in human beings ,........
           
          ......because of which the phenomenal world appears to be "real".
           
           
          "Real"-ly glorious, wondrous ........or.......... "Real"-ly lousy, pathetic, source of suffering.
           
           
           
          This process of identification of the Consciousness with an individual object
           
          and considering that object as "me" in the subjective sense (as opposed to all other objects)
           
          means in effect.............. the objectivizing of pure subjectivity,.....
           
          ........ thereby creating an apparent separation, between "me" and the "other".
           
           
          And it is this "me-concept" or self or ego which is the "bondage" from which "liberation" is sought.
           
          Sought.......... again by Consciousness which identified itself.
           
           
           

          Whatever appears to be done by a sentient being can only be conceptual ......
           
          ......because a sentient being, objectively, is only an appearance, an illusory dream-figure.
           
          All actions in the framework of space-time are dreamed by a dreamer that can have no objective
          existence.............aka the universal consciousness in movement.
           
           
           
          Sentient beings may imagine themselves as causative instruments but they are only an integral part of the hypothetical emptiness of the universe, .....
           
          ....one of the multitude of manifestations.
           
           
           
          It is universal consciousness which produces within itself the totality of the manifestation.
           
          The sentient beings are illusory objects from the point of view of the phenomenal manifestation, mere dreamed figures and therefore "nothing".
           
           
           
          But they are also "everything".......
           
          .......because, noumenally , anything, dreamed can be nothing other than the dreamer.
           
           
           
          The dreamer is the subjective aspect of consciousness.......
           
          ... while all manifestations .......its objective aspect.
           
           

          The sentient being, therefore, dreams the manifested universe-including himself (as in a personal dream)......
           
          .....by objectivising it.
           
          And it is as this subjective aspect of consciousness that the sentient being can be said to BE.
           
           
           
          As the phenomenally present illusory object, the sentient being is nothing.
           
          But, as the phenomenally absent- and noumenally present- "             "....... is everything.
           
           
           
           
          Creation and dissolution of phenomenality, of which this Universe is one mere bubble .......
           
          .......mere aspects of the Dance.
           
           
          Where the "Danced" and the "Dancer ".........are really aspects of the Dancing.
           
           
           
          The Dancing......
           
           
          .....while........
           
          ...........ever being........
           
           
          ....... transcendent to the very Dancing.
           
           
        • dabrown1973
          ... obviously intelligent, im just not familiar with the language. when i read krishnamurti, i have to go REEEEAAL SLOOOOW to let some of it sink in. my poor
          Message 4 of 6 , Feb 13, 2005
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            --- poser? {hopefully a mistype} both u and medit8tion are
            obviously intelligent, im just not familiar with the language. when i
            read krishnamurti, i have to go REEEEAAL SLOOOOW to let some of it
            sink in. my poor feeble mind cant keep up. haha thanks for the
            replies, but u did make me go get the dictionary a few times!
          • ganeshbabu vempati
            Dear friend, The only best method of meditation is observing the breath without thinking any thing after closing the eyes and crossing the fingers of the hands
            Message 5 of 6 , Feb 14, 2005
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              Dear friend,
              The only best method of meditation is observing the breath without thinking any thing after closing the eyes and crossing the fingers of the hands and crossing the legs in the posture of sukha padmasana. While doing this please keep all your previous knowledge aside, as it is a bookish knowledge which is not useful for a beginer. This is absolutely necessary for everone till they feel the experiences of meditation. One has to practice meditation atleast for one hour continuously. As u feel the flow of cosmic energy and other aspects u will start learning many things yourself as yourbreath is your master. Slowly u will learn to be with ur breath even when ur doing other works. The awareness is required to observe ur thoughts which are received by u from outside but not within. Be aware to observe the thoughts and analyse whether that thought is necessary to implement at that movement or not. If that is not necessary please ignore that thought but donot try to supress as it gains energy to lead u to inner chatterings. Try to make ur mind silent as much time as possible but donot control it. The best way to stop thoughts is by observing the breath only.
              Thanks, Ganesh

              medit8ionsociety <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "dabrown1973"
              <daleryukyu@p...> wrote:
              >
              > hi ya all  first of all, im glad their is a website devoted to one of
              > the most important things in life to me. i have experimented with a
              > variety of meditation techniques, the ones i have focused on
              > primarily is "feeling the body" and awareness of body.my first few
              > months was devoted to feeling the breath enter and leave, and it was
              > what got me hooked, but i found i couldnt do this while engaged in
              > other activities, and since i beleive its important to meditate
              > throughout the day, rather than just 20 minutes in the morning, i
              > have since moved on. for some reason, when i feel the body throughout
              > the day, i get a dull headache right where the "3rd eye" is located.
              > anybody have any info on that? secondly,i love krishnamurtis
              > teaching, as well as eckhart tolle, and have found both have been
              > beneficial. there are areas where their teaching conflict, and i
              > wondered if anybody with more clarity would want to respond on it.
              > both have written about watching your thoughts, being aware of your
              > reactions, however, tolle, as well as many others, states that when
              > you watch a thought, you are aware of your thought being there, and
              > here you are watching it(you are separate from your thought) but
              > krishnamurti states that division is the problem, that you are your
              > thoughts. anybody have any ideas, opinions on this?

              Great question! I think the answer is that you are
              looking at 2 different types of experiences. Here's
              an excellent article by the great Swami Sivananda that
              deals perfectly with these two perspectives as well
              as the other states that all are part of the divine
              Raja Yoga Samadhi. It is fairly long, but well worth
              the reading time as it also offers an opportunity
              to better understand some of the Sanskrit termonology
              that often is used to discuss these higher realms of
              awareness. Enjoy!..........

              Raja Yoga Samadhi

              By
              Sri Swami Sivananda

              According to Raja Yoga, Samadhi is of two kinds, viz., Samprajnata and
              Asamprajnata. In the former, the seeds of Samskaras are not destroyed.
              In the latter, the Samskaras are fried or annihilated in toto. That is
              the reason why the former is called Sabija Samadhi (with seeds) and
              the latter as Nirbija Samadhi (without seeds or Samskaras).
              Samprajnata Samadhi leads to Asamprajnata Samadhi.

              The Samprajnata Samadhi is also known by the name Savikalpa Samadhi or
              Sabija Samadhi. This Samadhi brings perfect knowledge of the object of
              meditation. The mind continuously and to the exclusion of all other
              objects assumes the nature and becomes one with the object of its
              contemplation. The Yogi attains all the powers of controlling the
              nature in this Samadhi.

              The Samprajnata Samadhi is of four kinds, viz., Savitarka, Savichara,
              Sananda and Asmita Samadhi. All these Samadhis have something to
              grasp. There is Alambana or argumentation or questioning. They give
              intensive joy but they are not the best and finest forms of Samadhi.
              They cover the gross or the subtle elements of nature and the organs
              of sense. They give you the direct knowledge of the elements, objects
              and instruments of knowledge and some freedom.

              These stages are in the form of steps of an ascending staircase. To
              begin with, meditation should be done on a gross form. When you
              advance in this meditation, you can take to abstract meditation, or
              meditation on subtle things or ideas. Mind should be gradually
              disciplined and trained in meditation. It cannot all at once enter
              into the highest Asamprajnata Samadhi or that which constitutes the
              highest subtle essence. That is the reason why Patanjali Maharshi has
              prescribed the practice of various kinds of lower Samadhis. When the
              mind is extremely attached to gross objects, it is not possible to fix
              it on subtle objects all at once. There must be gradual ascent in the
              ladder of Yoga. You should place your footstep cautiously in each rung
              of the ladder. You should pass through successive stages before you
              attain the highest Asamprajnata or Nirvikalpa Samadhi. But
              Yoga-Bhrashtas who have passed through the lower stages in their
              previous birth can attain to the highest stage at the very outset
              through the grace of the Lord. If the Yogic student had reached the
              higher stage, he need not revert to the lower stages.

              All the forms of Samprajnata Samadhi are Salambana Yoga (with support)
              and Sabija Yoga (with seed of Samskara). The Yogins enjoy a form of
              freedom. Dharma Megha in Raja Yoga means "the cloud of virtue". Just
              as clouds shower rain, so also this Dharma Megha Samadhi showers on
              the Yogins omniscience and all sorts of Siddhis or powers. The Yogi
              enjoys a form of freedom. Therefore, this Samadhi is called the
              Showerer or cloud (Megha) of virtue (Dharma). The Yogi enjoys expanded
              vision of God.

              Ritambhara, Prajnaloka, Prasannavahita are the three stages or
              Bhumikas of Samprajnata Samadhi. In Ritambhara the content of the
              mental Vritti is Satchidananda. There is still a separate knower. You
              get Yathartha Jnana or real wisdom. In the second, every kind of
              Avarana (veiling) is removed. The third state is the state of peace in
              which the mind is destitute of all mental modifications. The knowledge
              that you get from testimony and inference is above objects of the
              world; but the knowledge that you obtain from Samadhi is Divine
              Knowledge. It is super-sensual, intuitive knowledge where reason,
              inference and testimony cannot go.

              Savitarka and Nirvitarka Samadhis

              Savitarka Samadhi is Samadhi with reasoning. It is a superficial
              attempt of the mind to grasp any object. In this Samadhi, Sabda
              (sound), Artha (meaning), Jnana (knowledge) are mixed up.

              The. aspirant can meditate on the body of Virat or Lord Vishnu with
              four hands or Lord Krishna with flute in hand or any ordinary object.
              He will obtain the direct perception of all the peculiar features, the
              excellences (Gunas) and defects (Doshas) of the object of meditation.
              He will have complete knowledge of the object. He will be endowed with
              all the features of the object unheard of and unthought of. He will
              obtain these through Savitarka Samadhi. The Yogic student meditates on
              the object again and again by isolating it from other objects.

              You can meditate on the gross elements also. You will gain power over
              them through intense meditation. The elements will reveal to you their
              truths.

              Just as the new archer first aims at big object only and then at
              smaller ones gradually, so also the beginner in Yoga concentrates on
              the gross objects such as the five Maha Bhutas, Lord Hari with four
              hands, and then on subtle ones. In this manner the grasp of the
              objects by the mind becomes subtle. A Yogi directly perceives the real
              body of the Lord Vishnu as He lives in Vaikuntha, by the force of his
              meditation although he remains at a great distance from the Lord.

              In Savitarka Samadhi concentration is practised on gross objects and
              their nature in relation to time and space. This is a gross form of
              Samadhi. When the Yogi meditates on the elements as they are by taking
              them out of time and space, then it is called Nirvitarka Samadhi
              without questioning or reasoning or argumentation. This is a subtle
              form of Samadhi.

              In Savitarka there is Vikalpa or fanciful notion of word (Sabda),
              object (Artha) and idea (Jneya). There is no such notion in Nirvitarka
              Samadhi. There are three factors in the comprehension of a word, e.g.,
              cow�(1) cow, the word, (2) cow, the object, (3) cow, the idea in the
              mind. When the meditator imagines these three to be one and the same,
              it is an instance of Vikalpa or fanciful notion of the word, object
              and idea.

              Savichara and Nirvichara Samadhis

              If you meditate on the subtle Tanmatras (subtle elements of matter)
              and their nature in relation to time and space, it is Savichara
              Samadhi with deliberation or discrimination. This is Sukshma or
              subtle. This is subtler than Savitarka and Nirvitarka Samadhis.
              Tanmatras are the root-elements or Sukshma Bhutas. The five gross
              elements are derived from the Tanmatras through the process of
              quintuplication or mixing. Meditation goes a step higher in this
              Samadhi than in the previous one. The Yogi will get knowledge of the
              Tanmatras. He will obtain control over the Tanmatras. He will get the
              direct perception of the various subtle forms of the object
              culminating in primordial matter or Mula Prakriti.

              The word `subtle' indicates cause in general. It stands for all such
              causal principles as the Tanmatras or the primary elements egoism or
              Ahankara, Mahat Tattva or intellect and Prakriti.

              There is mysterious power, Achintya Sakti, in meditation. Although
              ordinary meditation is possible only in ways already heard and thought
              of, yet even such things as have not been heard or thought of may be
              directly cognised by the force of meditation.

              There is no difference between the cause and products. All gross
              objects are the products of the twenty-six principles. They are really
              of the same nature as that of twenty-six principles.

              If you meditate on the subtle Tanmatras by taking them out of time and
              space by thinking as they are, it will constitute Nirvichara Samadhi
              without deliberation or discrimination. As there is pure Sattva only
              in the mind owing to the eradication of Rajas and Tamas the Yogi
              enjoys internal peace or contentment (Adhyatmic Prasada) and
              subjective luminosity. The mind is very steady.

              Sananda Samadhi or the Blissful Samadhi

              Now we proceed to describe the joyful Samadhi. This is joyous Samadhi
              and it gives intense joy. In this Samadhi the gross and the five
              element's are given up. The Yogi meditates on the Sattvic mind itself.
              He thinks of the mind which is devoid of Rajas and Tamas. There arises
              in the Yogi a peculiar perception in the form of intense joy through
              this type of Samadhi.

              Asmita Samadhi

              In this Samadhi the mind is the object of meditation. It bestows the
              knowledge of the subject of all experiences. The Self knows the Self.
              The Sattvic state of the ego only remains. The Yogi can think himself
              now as without his gross body. He feels that he has a fine body. This
              Samadhi takes the Yogi to the root of experiences and shows the way to
              freedom.

              The Yogi feels "I am (Asmi) other than the body". He experiences that
              the gross, subtle and joyous Samadhis are not the highest Samadhis. He
              finds defects in them also and gets disgusted with them. He proceeds
              further and practises Asmita Samadhi. He experiences
              Self-consciousness (Asmita). He experiences a feeling of `enough' and
              develops dispassion in its highest form (Para Vairagya). This finally
              leads to the development of Asamprajnata Samadhi.

              Asamprajnata Samadhi or Nirbija or Nirbikalpa Samadhi

              This is the highest form of Samadhi. This comes after Viveka-khyati or
              the final discrimination between Prakriti and Purusha. All the seeds
              or impressions are burnt by the fire of knowledge. This Samadhi brings
              Kaivalya or Absolute Independence. This is the culmination or climax
              of Yoga, or final Prasankhyana which bestows the supreme, undying
              peace or knowledge. The Yogi enjoys the transcendental glories of the
              Self and has perfect freedom from the mental life. The sense of time
              is replaced by a sense of Eternity.

              In this Samadhi, there is neither Triputi nor Alambana. The Samskaras
              are fried in toto. This Samadhi alone can destroy birth end death and
              bring in highest knowledge and bliss.

              When you get full success or perfection (Siddhi) in Raja yoga by
              entering into Asamprajnata Samadhi (Nirvikalpa State), all the
              Samskaras and Vasanas which bring on rebirths are totally fried up.
              All Vrittis or mental modifications that arise form the mind-lake come
              under restraint. The five afflictions, viz., Avidya (ignorance),
              Asmita (egoism), Raga-dvesha (love and hatred) and Abhinivesha
              (clinging to life) are destroyed and the bonds of Karma are
              annihilated. This Samadhi brings on highest good (Nihsreyasa) and
              exaltation (Abhyudaya). It gives Moksha (deliverance form the wheel of
              births and deaths). With the advent of the knowledge of the Self,
              ignorance vanishes. With the disappearance of the root-cause, viz.,
              ignorance, egoism, etc., also disappear.

              In the Asamprajnata Samadhi, all the modifications of the mind are
              completely restrained. All the residual Samskaras are totally fried
              up. This is the highest Samadhi of Raja yoga. This is also known as
              Nirbija Samadhi (without seeds) and Nirvikalpa Samadhi.

              In this Samadhi, the Yogi sees without eyes, tastes without tongue,
              hears without ears, smells without nose and touches without skin. His
              Sankalpas can work miracles. He simply wills and everything comes into
              Being. This state is described in Taittariya Aranyaka�I-ii-5: "The
              blind man pierced the pearl, the fingerless put a thread into it; the
              neckless wore it and the touchless praised it."

              Eventually, the Purusha realises His own native state of Divine glory,
              Isolation or absolute Independence (Kaivalya). He has completely
              disconnected himself from the Prakriti and its effects. He feels his
              absolute freedom and attains Kaivalya, the highest goal of Raja Yoga.
              All Klesha Karmas are destroyed now. The Gunas having fulfilled their
              objects of Bhoga and Apavarga now entirely cease to act. He has
              simultaneous knowledge now. The past and the future are blended into
              the present. Everything is "Now". Everything is "Here". He has
              transcended time and space. The sum-total of all knowledge of the
              three worlds, of all secular sciences is nothing but mere husk when
              compared to the Infinite knowledge of a Yogi who has attained
              Kaivalya. Glory, glory to such exalted Yogins!






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