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Re: Weekly Words ofWisdom-Love

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  • tarah513
    ... Dear List: The view of love being selfless and unconditional is, in my mind, a false view and actually destroys its sublime value. Every Valentine s Day we
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 16, 2005
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      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
      <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      >
      > "Selfish love is not love. It's attachment, because you are doing
      > things for your sake. Real love has no selfishness in it. If you
      > really love somebody, it is completely selfless.

      > <snip>

      > H.H. Sri Gurudev Swami Satchidananda

      Dear List:

      The view of love being selfless and unconditional
      is, in my mind, a false view and actually destroys
      its sublime value. Every Valentine's Day we see
      this accepted falsehood (the idea that love
      is selfless) being propagated in a very pronounced
      manner. Actually, it is committed year-round, but
      its destructiveness is magnified on this holiday.

      Love, we are repeatedly taught, consists of
      self-sacrifice. Love based on self-interest,
      we are admonished, is cheap and sordid. True
      love, we are told, is altruistic. But is it?

      Imagine a Valentine's Day card which takes
      this premise seriously. Imagine receiving
      a card with the following message:

      "I get no pleasure from your existence. I
      obtain no personal enjoyment from the way
      you look, dress, move, act or think. Our
      relationship profits me not. You satisfy no
      sexual, emotional or intellectual needs of
      mine. You're a charity case, and I'm with
      you only out of pity. Love, XXX."

      Needless to say, you would be indignant
      to learn that you are being "loved," not for
      anything positive you offer your lover,
      but--like any recipient of alms--for what
      you lack. Yet that is the perverse view
      of love entailed in the belief that it is
      self-sacrificial.

      Genuine love is the exact opposite. It is
      the most selfish experience possible, in
      the true sense of the term: it benefits your
      life in a way that involves no sacrifice of
      others to yourself or of yourself to others.
      For instance, I never felt one moment of
      sacrifice for anything that I did for my son.

      I take care of my elderly father and
      definitely consider it a sacrifice on my part.
      A sacrifice I face because of decisions I made.
      This is NOT love. This is DUTY and honoring a
      commitment.

      To love a person is selfish because it means
      that you value that particular person, that
      he or she makes your life better, that he or
      she is an intense source of joy--to you. A
      "disinterested" love is a contradiction in
      terms. One cannot be neutral to that which one
      values. The time, effort and money you spend
      on behalf of someone you love are not sacrifices,
      but actions taken because his or her happiness
      is crucially important to your own. Such
      actions would constitute sacrifices only
      if they were done for a stranger--or for
      an enemy. Those who argue that love demands
      self-denial must hold the bizarre belief that
      it makes no personal difference whether your
      loved one is healthy or sick, feels pleasure
      or pain, is alive or dead.

      It is regularly asserted that love should
      be unconditional, and that we should
      "love everyone as a brother." We see this
      view advocated by the "non-judgmental"
      grade-school teacher who tells his class
      that whoever brings a Valentine's Day card
      for one student must bring cards for everyone.
      We see it in the appalling dictum of "Hate
      the sin, but love the sinner"--which would
      have us condemn death camps but send Hitler
      a box of Godiva chocolates. Most people
      would agree that having sex with a person
      one despises is debased. Yet somehow, when
      the same underlying idea is applied to love,
      people consider it noble.

      Love is far too precious to be offered
      indiscriminately. It is, above all, in
      the area of love that egalitarianism
      ought to be repudiated. Love represents an
      exalted exchange--a spiritual exchange--between
      two people, for the purpose of mutual benefit.

      You love someone because he or she is a
      value--a selfish value to you, as determined
      by your standards--just as you are a value to
      him or her.

      It is the view that you ought to be given
      love unconditionally--the view that you
      do not deserve it any more than some
      random bum, the view that it is not a
      response to anything particular in you, the
      view that it is causeless--which
      exemplifies the most ignoble conception
      of this sublime experience.

      The nature of love places certain demands
      on those who wish to enjoy it. You must
      regard yourself as worthy of being loved.
      Those who expect to be loved, not because
      they offer some positive value, but because
      they don't--i.e., those who demand love as
      altruistic duty--are parasites. Someone
      who says "Love me just because I need it"
      seeks an unearned spiritual value--in the
      same way that a thief seeks unearned wealth.

      And now, I see Valentine's Day (which is
      fast approaching)--with its colorful cards,
      mouth-watering chocolates and silky lingerie--as
      a means of giving material form to this
      spiritual value. It is a moment for you to
      pause, to ignore the trivialities of life--and
      to celebrate the selfish pleasure of being
      worthy of someone's love and of having found
      someone worthy of yours.

      Faithe
    • Nina
      Hello, Faithe, ach Mensch, what an outpouring, some of it very compelling as an argument. There does seem to be a spectrum available. Loving seems to be a
      Message 2 of 24 , Jan 16, 2005
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        Hello, Faithe, ach Mensch, what an outpouring,
        some of it very compelling as an argument.
        There does seem to be a spectrum available.
        Loving seems to be a difficult practice -
        something that may be cultivated, something
        that may be experienced and observed through
        many permutations. At times, loving may also
        spontaneously flower... as sudden insight into
        underlying perfection. To me, this may be the
        selfless love Satchidananda discusses.

        It seems to me that Satchidananda's meaning may
        be easier to comprehend if one substitutes
        'acceptance' for 'love'.

        Nina


        > > "Selfish love is not love. It's attachment, because you are doing
        > > things for your sake. Real love has no selfishness in it. If you
        > > really love somebody, it is completely selfless.
        >
        > > <snip>
        >
        > > H.H. Sri Gurudev Swami Satchidananda

        Faithe:
        > Dear List:
        >
        > The view of love being selfless and unconditional
        > is, in my mind, a false view and actually destroys
        > its sublime value.
      • medit8ionsociety
        ... Dear Faithe, I d say that you present an intellectual argument pretty well, but it is a spiritual and emotional situation. As Gurdjieff would put it,
        Message 3 of 24 , Jan 17, 2005
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, tarah513
          <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
          > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > >
          > > "Selfish love is not love. It's attachment, because you are doing
          > > things for your sake. Real love has no selfishness in it. If you
          > > really love somebody, it is completely selfless.
          >
          > > <snip>
          >
          > > H.H. Sri Gurudev Swami Satchidananda
          >
          > Dear List:
          >
          > The view of love being selfless and unconditional
          > is, in my mind, a false view and actually destroys
          > its sublime value. Every Valentine's Day we see
          > this accepted falsehood (the idea that love
          > is selfless) being propagated in a very pronounced
          > manner. Actually, it is committed year-round, but
          > its destructiveness is magnified on this holiday.
          >
          > Love, we are repeatedly taught, consists of
          > self-sacrifice. Love based on self-interest,
          > we are admonished, is cheap and sordid. True
          > love, we are told, is altruistic. But is it?
          >
          > Imagine a Valentine's Day card which takes
          > this premise seriously. Imagine receiving
          > a card with the following message:
          >
          > "I get no pleasure from your existence. I
          > obtain no personal enjoyment from the way
          > you look, dress, move, act or think. Our
          > relationship profits me not. You satisfy no
          > sexual, emotional or intellectual needs of
          > mine. You're a charity case, and I'm with
          > you only out of pity. Love, XXX."
          >
          > Needless to say, you would be indignant
          > to learn that you are being "loved," not for
          > anything positive you offer your lover,
          > but--like any recipient of alms--for what
          > you lack. Yet that is the perverse view
          > of love entailed in the belief that it is
          > self-sacrificial.
          >
          > Genuine love is the exact opposite. It is
          > the most selfish experience possible, in
          > the true sense of the term: it benefits your
          > life in a way that involves no sacrifice of
          > others to yourself or of yourself to others.
          > For instance, I never felt one moment of
          > sacrifice for anything that I did for my son.
          >
          > I take care of my elderly father and
          > definitely consider it a sacrifice on my part.
          > A sacrifice I face because of decisions I made.
          > This is NOT love. This is DUTY and honoring a
          > commitment.
          >
          > To love a person is selfish because it means
          > that you value that particular person, that
          > he or she makes your life better, that he or
          > she is an intense source of joy--to you. A
          > "disinterested" love is a contradiction in
          > terms. One cannot be neutral to that which one
          > values. The time, effort and money you spend
          > on behalf of someone you love are not sacrifices,
          > but actions taken because his or her happiness
          > is crucially important to your own. Such
          > actions would constitute sacrifices only
          > if they were done for a stranger--or for
          > an enemy. Those who argue that love demands
          > self-denial must hold the bizarre belief that
          > it makes no personal difference whether your
          > loved one is healthy or sick, feels pleasure
          > or pain, is alive or dead.
          >
          > It is regularly asserted that love should
          > be unconditional, and that we should
          > "love everyone as a brother." We see this
          > view advocated by the "non-judgmental"
          > grade-school teacher who tells his class
          > that whoever brings a Valentine's Day card
          > for one student must bring cards for everyone.
          > We see it in the appalling dictum of "Hate
          > the sin, but love the sinner"--which would
          > have us condemn death camps but send Hitler
          > a box of Godiva chocolates. Most people
          > would agree that having sex with a person
          > one despises is debased. Yet somehow, when
          > the same underlying idea is applied to love,
          > people consider it noble.
          >
          > Love is far too precious to be offered
          > indiscriminately. It is, above all, in
          > the area of love that egalitarianism
          > ought to be repudiated. Love represents an
          > exalted exchange--a spiritual exchange--between
          > two people, for the purpose of mutual benefit.
          >
          > You love someone because he or she is a
          > value--a selfish value to you, as determined
          > by your standards--just as you are a value to
          > him or her.
          >
          > It is the view that you ought to be given
          > love unconditionally--the view that you
          > do not deserve it any more than some
          > random bum, the view that it is not a
          > response to anything particular in you, the
          > view that it is causeless--which
          > exemplifies the most ignoble conception
          > of this sublime experience.
          >
          > The nature of love places certain demands
          > on those who wish to enjoy it. You must
          > regard yourself as worthy of being loved.
          > Those who expect to be loved, not because
          > they offer some positive value, but because
          > they don't--i.e., those who demand love as
          > altruistic duty--are parasites. Someone
          > who says "Love me just because I need it"
          > seeks an unearned spiritual value--in the
          > same way that a thief seeks unearned wealth.
          >
          > And now, I see Valentine's Day (which is
          > fast approaching)--with its colorful cards,
          > mouth-watering chocolates and silky lingerie--as
          > a means of giving material form to this
          > spiritual value. It is a moment for you to
          > pause, to ignore the trivialities of life--and
          > to celebrate the selfish pleasure of being
          > worthy of someone's love and of having found
          > someone worthy of yours.
          >
          > Faithe

          Dear Faithe,
          I'd say that you present an intellectual
          argument pretty well, but it is a spiritual
          and emotional situation. As Gurdjieff would
          put it, you're using the "wrong center"
          to deal with Love. In Raja Yoga, the yoga
          of meditation, we find the first 2 steps
          are to discriminate between the real/eternal
          and the unreal/transient, and to have dispassion.
          The selfish love you write of is clearly
          situational and changing. It goes from worthy to
          unworthy. This has nothing whatsoever to do with
          what Swamiji is pointing to. To use an example
          from another yoga that deals with Love, Kundalini
          Yoga, the Heart Chakra, when opened, is not
          selfish at all, and is infinite and non-exclusive
          in nature. And when the veil of illusion is ripped
          away, the undescribable Reality presents itself as
          can perhaps best be most closly described as
          Loving Consciousness.

          Words can only give a drop in the oceans worth of
          understanding of what this "Love" is.
          IT is only known experientially. And until that is
          our reality, all of our "selfish" actions are only
          attempts to experience this unselfish Love.

          Peace and blessing,
          Bob

          PS: I remember Swami Satchidananda once saying
          (and I'm paraphrasing here) that the most selfish
          person was the one who wants to be unselfish,
          as s/he knows that only then will the entire
          creation be known as themselves, and thus
          satisfy all desires.
        • tarah513
          ... wrote: Dear Faithe, I d say that you present an intellectual argument pretty well, but it is a spiritual and emotional situation. As
          Message 4 of 24 , Jan 17, 2005
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
            <no_reply@y...> wrote:

            Dear Faithe,
            I'd say that you present an intellectual
            argument pretty well, but it is a spiritual
            and emotional situation. As Gurdjieff would
            put it, you're using the "wrong center"
            to deal with Love.

            Faithe:

            You separate "intellectual" from "spiritual &
            emotional" situations. Is there really a
            separation? (More below in this topic.)

            Since Gurdjieff is not around to ask what he
            means, I will side-step the comment on
            "wrong center" as you say he would put it.

            I ask YOU what do you mean by "wrong center"?

            Bob:

            In Raja Yoga, the yoga
            of meditation, we find the first 2 steps
            are to discriminate between the real/eternal
            and the unreal/transient, and to have dispassion.

            Faithe:

            And how does one be discriminate at the same
            time as having dispassion? Is this not a conflict
            of terms? To discriminate is to find favor with
            something compared to another...which suggests
            emotion.

            Bob:

            The selfish love you write of is clearly
            situational and changing. It goes from worthy to
            unworthy.

            Faithe:

            I disagree. The selfish love which I speak of is
            unchanging. It is the "unselfish" love that
            vacillates from the worthy to unworthy. The selfish
            love is always worthy.

            Bob:

            This has nothing whatsoever to do with
            what Swamiji is pointing to. To use an example
            from another yoga that deals with Love, Kundalini
            Yoga, the Heart Chakra, when opened, is not
            selfish at all, and is infinite and non-exclusive
            in nature.

            Faithe:

            Could you please explain that further. I do not
            understand what you are saying. What does this
            love, when opened, do? How do you suppose that
            this Kundalini Yoga came to be?

            Bob:

            And when the veil of illusion is ripped
            away, the undescribable Reality presents itself as
            can perhaps best be most closly described as
            Loving Consciousness.

            Faithe:

            Have you met "Loving Consciousness". Who rips
            this veil away? Why is "Reality" undescribable?

            Bob:

            Words can only give a drop in the oceans worth of
            understanding of what this "Love" is.

            Faithe:

            Forget about the drops, do you understand it,
            and if so, can you explain it to me a little bit
            better?

            Bob:

            IT is only known experientially. And until that is
            our reality, all of our "selfish" actions are only
            attempts to experience this unselfish Love.

            Faithe:

            What is this "IT" that you refer to? Since it is only
            known personally through experiences (experientially)
            then it should be able to be explained...no?

            Could you please give me an example of what you
            perceive to be a "selfish" action?

            Bob:

            Peace and blessing,
            Bob

            PS: I remember Swami Satchidananda once saying
            (and I'm paraphrasing here) that the most selfish
            person was the one who wants to be unselfish,
            as s/he knows that only then will the entire
            creation be known as themselves, and thus
            satisfy all desires.

            Faithe:

            And what does that above mean? Sounds confusing to me.

            With all the conversation above, I now
            point out that your attempt to separate
            "intellectual" from "spiritual" is nothing
            more than a concept derived from an intellectual
            base to describe the "spiritual" as "separate".

            You make reference to "steps to be taken" above in
            Yoga...this too is nothing more than using the
            intellectual to come up with more concepts.

            All the meditation & yoga "theories", practices
            and "how to's" are all intellectual means to
            describe a process. Man is wondrous in using
            the intellectual to explain everything...even
            to the point of saying certain things are
            "unexplainable"...because intellectually
            they have been set up that way.

            Please, do not construe this as a belittling of
            meditation & yoga, because this is NOT the intention.
            What I am attempting to do is to take the mystique,
            secretiveness and "unexplainable" aspect out of it. My
            life is one continual meditative process.

            Man has been working on making spirituality full of
            hidden meanings, etc., for thousands of years. Haven't
            we been asleep long enough? Isn't it about time
            that we wake up to this fraud and take the hocus-
            pocus out of it?

            The "Loving Consciousness" that you refer to, falls
            into this same mode. It has been conceived out of
            the intellectual. Can you explain the difference
            between "Loving Consciousness" and "consciousness"?

            Intellectually, emotionally & spiritually yours,

            Faithe
          • medit8ionsociety
            ... Well, let s see if we can summerize Gurdjieff s concept of centers by giving a few examples of not using the right center at the right time. Let s say that
            Message 5 of 24 , Jan 17, 2005
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              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, tarah513
              <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
              > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Faithe,
              > I'd say that you present an intellectual
              > argument pretty well, but it is a spiritual
              > and emotional situation. As Gurdjieff would
              > put it, you're using the "wrong center"
              > to deal with Love.
              >
              > Faithe:
              >
              > You separate "intellectual" from "spiritual &
              > emotional" situations. Is there really a
              > separation? (More below in this topic.)
              >
              > Since Gurdjieff is not around to ask what he
              > means, I will side-step the comment on
              > "wrong center" as you say he would put it.
              >
              > I ask YOU what do you mean by "wrong center"?

              Well, let's see if we can summerize Gurdjieff's
              concept of centers by giving a few examples of
              not using the right center at the right time. Let's
              say that we are playing baseball, and are at bat.
              If we try to analyze the speed of the ball, the
              distance it's being thrown from, the weight of the
              ball, the height of the pitcher, the weather
              conditions, and so on, we're never going to be able
              to actually hit the ball. The intellectual center
              is inappropriate for this task. But if we let our
              body do the job, we can. This is using the physical
              center for a physical task. Similarly, if we want
              to purchase a car, it would make sense to use the
              intellectual center to determine if the price is
              fair, rather than just relying on our emotional or
              physical reaction to the car. Etc. Also, in general, the
              misuse of the appropriate center for the task at hand
              is one of the main causes of squandered energy, and
              drains us needlessly. And when we witness our life i
              n a balanced fashion, using the appropriate center at
              the appropriate time, we are then at the point where
              we can begin to "do", and not just react to the events
              in our life.

              > Bob:
              >
              > In Raja Yoga, the yoga
              > of meditation, we find the first 2 steps
              > are to discriminate between the real/eternal
              > and the unreal/transient, and to have dispassion.
              >
              > Faithe:
              >
              > And how does one be discriminate at the same
              > time as having dispassion? Is this not a conflict
              > of terms? To discriminate is to find favor with
              > something compared to another...which suggests
              > emotion.

              How does one discriminate at the same time as having
              dispassion? By unreactively witnessing our life
              as it takes place without judgement, comparisons, or
              commentary. And this ability is potentiated up by meditating.
              And meditation begins with discrimination and dispassion.
              When we get overly reactive positively or negatively,
              we are set up for a fall. The calm unattached witnessing
              of life's flow is the way to go. "Don't sweat the small
              stuff" is a basic form of discrimination. In Raja Yoga,
              this is extropolated to the infinite and eternal. These
              have been the first 2 steps in the meditative process for
              thousands of years, and is the foundation that must exist
              for the control of the senses, the mind, and emotions
              to happen. We then proceed to being able to
              concentrate, and then have meditation come to us, and
              ultimately enter into contemplation.

              > Bob:
              >
              > The selfish love you write of is clearly
              > situational and changing. It goes from worthy to
              > unworthy.
              >
              > Faithe:
              >
              > I disagree. The selfish love which I speak of is
              > unchanging. It is the "unselfish" love that
              > vacillates from the worthy to unworthy. The selfish
              > love is always worthy.

              I disagree. The selfish love is always qualified.

              > Bob:
              >
              > This has nothing whatsoever to do with
              > what Swamiji is pointing to. To use an example
              > from another yoga that deals with Love, Kundalini
              > Yoga, the Heart Chakra, when opened, is not
              > selfish at all, and is infinite and non-exclusive
              > in nature.
              >
              > Faithe:
              >
              > Could you please explain that further. I do not
              > understand what you are saying. What does this
              > love, when opened, do? How do you suppose that
              > this Kundalini Yoga came to be?

              Yes, words can't explain that which is experiential.
              I think Kundalini came to be long ago as our ancesters
              sat in caves and had no internet to surf, nor Tv
              to watch, so they looked within and found the really
              impressive reality show of shows:-)

              > Bob:
              >
              > And when the veil of illusion is ripped
              > away, the undescribable Reality presents itself as
              > can perhaps best be most closly described as
              > Loving Consciousness.
              >
              > Faithe:
              >
              > Have you met "Loving Consciousness". Who rips
              > this veil away? Why is "Reality" undescribable?

              The infiniteness of how much love is everpresent
              is beyond words and the experience of IT is mind
              chatter stopping. And the experience is not
              producable. It comes by Grace.

              > Bob:
              >
              > Words can only give a drop in the oceans worth of
              > understanding of what this "Love" is.
              >
              > Faithe:
              >
              > Forget about the drops, do you understand it,
              > and if so, can you explain it to me a little bit
              > better?

              I can't even explain it to my so-called self.
              IT is experiental.

              > Bob:
              >
              > IT is only known experientially. And until that is
              > our reality, all of our "selfish" actions are only
              > attempts to experience this unselfish Love.
              >
              > Faithe:
              >
              > What is this "IT" that you refer to? Since it is only
              > known personally through experiences (experientially)
              > then it should be able to be explained...no?

              No - see above, and within.

              > Could you please give me an example of what you
              > perceive to be a "selfish" action?

              Seeing only your body/mind/emotions as what needs to
              be cared about. And this puts you in a terrible
              and vulnerable position, whereas the person who puts
              others needs before "their" own can't go wrong. If
              you act for the good of others, you will never get
              "bad karma", and if you act for yourself only, it
              can't be avoided. As Kir Li Molari put it "Only
              the selfish suffer".

              > Bob:
              >
              > Peace and blessing,
              > Bob
              >
              > PS: I remember Swami Satchidananda once saying
              > (and I'm paraphrasing here) that the most selfish
              > person was the one who wants to be unselfish,
              > as s/he knows that only then will the entire
              > creation be known as themselves, and thus
              > satisfy all desires.
              >
              > Faithe:
              >
              > And what does that above mean? Sounds confusing to me.

              I'm sorry, I must have retold it in a poor way.
              It means that being unselfish is such a good stratogy
              for life that you are actually being selfish if you take
              that approach because you know good things will always
              then come to you.

              > With all the conversation above, I now
              > point out that your attempt to separate
              > "intellectual" from "spiritual" is nothing
              > more than a concept derived from an intellectual
              > base to describe the "spiritual" as "separate".

              Yeah, sort of. But what I am pointing to is being complete,
              and not top heavy intellectually. Because then you
              would be unbalanced, and eventually you will surely
              tip over, and that's a very vulnerable position to be in.

              > You make reference to "steps to be taken" above in
              > Yoga...this too is nothing more than using the
              > intellectual to come up with more concepts.
              >
              If that's as far as you want to take it. But I think
              that's seeing only one tree when there is a forrest
              in front of you.

              > All the meditation & yoga "theories", practices
              > and "how to's" are all intellectual means to
              > describe a process. Man is wondrous in using
              > the intellectual to explain everything...even
              > to the point of saying certain things are
              > "unexplainable"...because intellectually
              > they have been set up that way.

              I'm going to go way out here...The mind is your/our
              biggest enemy, and it's here talking you right out of
              self-enquiry and justifying a position that shuts off
              evolution of consciousness. Still the mind if you
              want to "get IT". And Raja Yoga/meditation is a fine
              way towards that end. If you want to go the intellectual
              route, Jhana Yoga, the yoga of wisdom is right there
              for us. It is perhaps the "hardest" path, but for many,
              it has been most beneficial. Enquire "Who am I".
              And see what happens.

              > Please, do not construe this as a belittling of
              > meditation & yoga, because this is NOT the intention.
              > What I am attempting to do is to take the mystique,
              > secretiveness and "unexplainable" aspect out of it. My
              > life is one continual meditative process.

              That's great! I hope it brings you peace. I don't think
              meditation and yoga are at all secretive and unexpalanable.
              I think a life without meditation is.

              > Man has been working on making spirituality full of
              > hidden meanings, etc., for thousands of years. Haven't
              > we been asleep long enough? Isn't it about time
              > that we wake up to this fraud and take the hocus-
              > pocus out of it?

              That's what meditation is all about.

              > The "Loving Consciousness" that you refer to, falls
              > into this same mode. It has been conceived out of
              > the intellectual. Can you explain the difference
              > between "Loving Consciousness" and "consciousness"?

              Yeah, but to quote Kir Li Molari again, all it would
              be is more "Words! Words! Words!"

              > Intellectually, emotionally & spiritually yours,
              >
              > Faithe

              Peace and blessings,
              Bob
            • T.
              Hi guys, it s me - the baby lurker. Holy crow, I want to get where you guys are!! I know of course that you all have been studying (??) and practicing for a
              Message 6 of 24 , Jan 18, 2005
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                Hi guys, it's me - the baby lurker.

                Holy crow, I want to get where you guys are!! I know of course that
                you all have been studying (??) and practicing for a long time and
                I'm willing to accept what I can achieve/recieve slowly but surely.

                I just don't know where/how to start!! I attempt meditation
                frequently - but still haven't achieved it. I'm not
                getting "frustrated" really, but something like it.

                I hate to ask you all to go back to basics - but any lessons/advice
                you could lend to a newcomer would be greatly appreciated.

                I want this very badly, but I'm finding that I'm not even exactly
                sure what "this" is - it seems the more I try to draw closer to it -
                the further away I'm actually getting. And it seems that all the
                wanting and trying is about as far away from it as it can get!! =o)

                I hope this isn't considered an intrusion. My apologies, if it is.

                Trina

                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
                <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                >
                > "Selfish love is not love. It's attachment, because you are doing
                > things for your sake. Real love has no selfishness in it. If you
                > really love somebody, it is completely selfless. The entire nature
                > loves us selflessly. Whether we appreciate or not, whether we give
                > anything in return or not, it just loves us. Rain pours without any
                > expectation; sun shines without any expectation; trees give their
                > fruits without any expectation; bushes give their flowers without
                any
                > expectation; the cow gives milk without any expectation. The motto
                of
                > the entire nature is selflessness: serve, serve, serve. In fact, we
                > are created to serve others, not to serve ourselves. We have been
                > provided everything by God or Nature, to serve others.
                >
                > God bless you. Om Shanthi, Shanthi, Shanthi."
                >
                > H.H. Sri Gurudev Swami Satchidananda
                >
                > For more information about Swami Satchidananda:
                > http://www.swamisatchidananda.org
              • Thomas R. Strauman
                Trina, Just do it. The importance is not in the achieving, but in the doing. Tom.
                Message 7 of 24 , Jan 19, 2005
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                  Trina,
                   
                  Just do it.  The importance is not in the achieving, but in the doing.
                   
                  Tom.
                • Bob Hart
                  Hi Trina, What is it you are expecting to find with meditation? Namaste Bob Hart
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jan 23, 2005
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                    Hi Trina, What is it you are expecting to find with meditation?
                    Namaste Bob Hart
                  • T.
                    I d like to deepen my relationship with God. I d like to calm my inner soul. I d like to broaden my understanding. I would like to stop trying and just BE.
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jan 23, 2005
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                      I'd like to deepen my relationship with God. I'd like to calm my
                      inner soul. I'd like to broaden my understanding. I would like to
                      stop trying and just BE.

                      Mostly, I just want to be able to do it!! I have the HARDEST time
                      quieting my mind. I haven't really been able to achieve
                      meditation. I think I've come close - but then I THINK about it
                      ("oh, yay, I'm doing it!!") and then it goes and stays gone. LOL

                      Trina


                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bob Hart
                      <hartbd_62521@y...> wrote:
                      > Hi Trina, What is it you are expecting to find with meditation?
                      > Namaste Bob Hart
                    • Bob Hart
                      Hi Trina, try this, 1. first for 5 min just sit and watch what goes on in your mind, don t try and do anything, just observe, eyes closed go ahead and do it
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jan 23, 2005
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                        Hi Trina, try this, 1. first for 5 min just sit and watch what goes on in your mind, don't try and do anything, just observe, eyes closed go ahead and do it now._____________________ Good what did you see? what did you hear? there probably was a lot going on in your head right? OK  lesson 2. for 5 min choose one of these practices, on the out breath count 1 every out breath count untill you get to 10 then start over ,, eyes closed both practices this one just say breathing in as you breat in and breathing out as you breate out. now try that for 5 min. go ahead and try it.  What happen? Did you find that there wasn't room in your head for all the chatter this time?     Most of the time you can only think of one think at a time so when you pratice one of these your mind chatter should cease. If you find your self losing track of were you are just go back to your practice. When any thoughts come just say thinking thinking go back to your practice. Try this and get back with me please. Thanks Trina.
                        Namaste Bob Hart
                      • T.
                        Okay! I tried what you suggested. First - my mind was of course, pretty loud and busy. I m sure you expected that. I just listened to it and took some
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jan 25, 2005
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                          Okay! I tried what you suggested. First - my mind was of course,
                          pretty loud and busy. I'm sure you expected that. I just listened
                          to it and took some "mental notes". Didn't seem really chaotic -
                          just busy.

                          Then I tried the counting technique - and I fell asleep the first
                          time (dang!!) BUT - I tried the counting technique again tonight and
                          although I did a lot of thinking (dang!!) I just did what you
                          suggested and mentally said "thinking" and went back to counting.
                          I'm not sure that I accomplished any sort of medatative state -
                          however I was PLEASED to see that when I opened my eyes, 8 minutes
                          had passed when I was SURE it would be only 3 or 4. So, that was
                          GOOD.

                          I felt pretty relaxed and my hands and feet had a slight tingle and
                          I was surprised at how LONG it took to get to 10 (thinking!! LOL) -
                          so, all in all I feel like it was a good experience. I will
                          continue to use this method and keep you updated.

                          Looking forward to my next lesson! *wink* and THANK YOU for taking
                          the time with me - to teach me. I really appreciate you!

                          Trina

                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bob Hart
                          <hartbd_62521@y...> wrote:
                          > Hi Trina, try this, 1. first for 5 min just sit and watch what
                          goes on in your mind, don't try and do anything, just observe, eyes
                          closed go ahead and do it now._____________________ Good what did
                          you see? what did you hear? there probably was a lot going on in
                          your head right? OK lesson 2. for 5 min choose one of these
                          practices, on the out breath count 1 every out breath count untill
                          you get to 10 then start over ,, eyes closed both practices this one
                          just say breathing in as you breat in and breathing out as you
                          breate out. now try that for 5 min. go ahead and try it. What
                          happen? Did you find that there wasn't room in your head for all the
                          chatter this time? Most of the time you can only think of one
                          think at a time so when you pratice one of these your mind chatter
                          should cease. If you find your self losing track of were you are
                          just go back to your practice. When any thoughts come just say
                          thinking thinking go back to your practice. Try this and get back
                          with me please.
                          > Thanks Trina.
                          > Namaste Bob Hart
                        • n0by
                          In true meditation the meditator and the object of meditation are no longer present. If there is intention to meditate then this intention, this doing, is
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jan 26, 2005
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                            In true meditation the meditator and the object of meditation are no
                            longer present.
                            If there is intention to meditate then this intention, this doing,
                            is coming from a doer. It comes from the concept of separation, "ME".
                            When meditation happens there is no one to whom it happens, no
                            happener making it happen.
                            Such moments cannot be brought about by methods, techniques or
                            practices as these are all ego based, based upon the idea that one
                            is not already existence itself.
                            The impulse to meditate arises when the action of seeking is
                            believed to be coming from a seeker, from "otherness", and this in
                            turn creates something to be sought. Seeking is an activity, NOT an
                            entity, in consciousness.
                            That which the seeking arises from is what is being sought. When
                            this is intuitively understood no deliberate attempt to meditate can
                            arise as the impulse to do so is no longer present, having been
                            severed at the root by the realisation that there is only Oneness,
                            that one is already what was being sought.
                            This is true meditation, there is no longer a meditator, simply
                            meditation happening.



                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "T."
                            <jedsgirl522@y...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Okay! I tried what you suggested. First - my mind was of course,
                            > pretty loud and busy. I'm sure you expected that. I just
                            listened
                            > to it and took some "mental notes". Didn't seem really chaotic -
                            > just busy.
                            >
                            > Then I tried the counting technique - and I fell asleep the first
                            > time (dang!!) BUT - I tried the counting technique again tonight
                            and
                            > although I did a lot of thinking (dang!!) I just did what you
                            > suggested and mentally said "thinking" and went back to counting.
                            > I'm not sure that I accomplished any sort of medatative state -
                            > however I was PLEASED to see that when I opened my eyes, 8 minutes
                            > had passed when I was SURE it would be only 3 or 4. So, that was
                            > GOOD.
                            >
                            > I felt pretty relaxed and my hands and feet had a slight tingle and
                            > I was surprised at how LONG it took to get to 10 (thinking!! LOL) -
                            > so, all in all I feel like it was a good experience. I will
                            > continue to use this method and keep you updated.
                            >
                            > Looking forward to my next lesson! *wink* and THANK YOU for taking
                            > the time with me - to teach me. I really appreciate you!
                            >
                            > Trina
                            >
                            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bob Hart
                            > <hartbd_62521@y...> wrote:
                            > > Hi Trina, try this, 1. first for 5 min just sit and watch what
                            > goes on in your mind, don't try and do anything, just observe, eyes
                            > closed go ahead and do it now._____________________ Good what did
                            > you see? what did you hear? there probably was a lot going on in
                            > your head right? OK lesson 2. for 5 min choose one of these
                            > practices, on the out breath count 1 every out breath count untill
                            > you get to 10 then start over ,, eyes closed both practices this
                            one
                            > just say breathing in as you breat in and breathing out as you
                            > breate out. now try that for 5 min. go ahead and try it. What
                            > happen? Did you find that there wasn't room in your head for all
                            the
                            > chatter this time? Most of the time you can only think of one
                            > think at a time so when you pratice one of these your mind chatter
                            > should cease. If you find your self losing track of were you are
                            > just go back to your practice. When any thoughts come just say
                            > thinking thinking go back to your practice. Try this and get back
                            > with me please.
                            > > Thanks Trina.
                            > > Namaste Bob Hart
                          • T.
                            How did you learn how to meditate? Trina ... no ... separation, ME . ... an ... can ... course, ... first ... counting. ... minutes ... was ... and ... LOL) -
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jan 27, 2005
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                              How did you learn how to meditate?

                              Trina


                              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "n0by"
                              <n0by4you@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > In true meditation the meditator and the object of meditation are
                              no
                              > longer present.
                              > If there is intention to meditate then this intention, this doing,
                              > is coming from a doer. It comes from the concept of
                              separation, "ME".
                              > When meditation happens there is no one to whom it happens, no
                              > happener making it happen.
                              > Such moments cannot be brought about by methods, techniques or
                              > practices as these are all ego based, based upon the idea that one
                              > is not already existence itself.
                              > The impulse to meditate arises when the action of seeking is
                              > believed to be coming from a seeker, from "otherness", and this in
                              > turn creates something to be sought. Seeking is an activity, NOT
                              an
                              > entity, in consciousness.
                              > That which the seeking arises from is what is being sought. When
                              > this is intuitively understood no deliberate attempt to meditate
                              can
                              > arise as the impulse to do so is no longer present, having been
                              > severed at the root by the realisation that there is only Oneness,
                              > that one is already what was being sought.
                              > This is true meditation, there is no longer a meditator, simply
                              > meditation happening.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "T."
                              > <jedsgirl522@y...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Okay! I tried what you suggested. First - my mind was of
                              course,
                              > > pretty loud and busy. I'm sure you expected that. I just
                              > listened
                              > > to it and took some "mental notes". Didn't seem really chaotic -

                              > > just busy.
                              > >
                              > > Then I tried the counting technique - and I fell asleep the
                              first
                              > > time (dang!!) BUT - I tried the counting technique again tonight
                              > and
                              > > although I did a lot of thinking (dang!!) I just did what you
                              > > suggested and mentally said "thinking" and went back to
                              counting.
                              > > I'm not sure that I accomplished any sort of medatative state -
                              > > however I was PLEASED to see that when I opened my eyes, 8
                              minutes
                              > > had passed when I was SURE it would be only 3 or 4. So, that
                              was
                              > > GOOD.
                              > >
                              > > I felt pretty relaxed and my hands and feet had a slight tingle
                              and
                              > > I was surprised at how LONG it took to get to 10 (thinking!!
                              LOL) -
                              > > so, all in all I feel like it was a good experience. I will
                              > > continue to use this method and keep you updated.
                              > >
                              > > Looking forward to my next lesson! *wink* and THANK YOU for
                              taking
                              > > the time with me - to teach me. I really appreciate you!
                              > >
                              > > Trina
                              > >
                              > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bob Hart
                              > > <hartbd_62521@y...> wrote:
                              > > > Hi Trina, try this, 1. first for 5 min just sit and watch what
                              > > goes on in your mind, don't try and do anything, just observe,
                              eyes
                              > > closed go ahead and do it now._____________________ Good what
                              did
                              > > you see? what did you hear? there probably was a lot going on in
                              > > your head right? OK lesson 2. for 5 min choose one of these
                              > > practices, on the out breath count 1 every out breath count
                              untill
                              > > you get to 10 then start over ,, eyes closed both practices this
                              > one
                              > > just say breathing in as you breat in and breathing out as you
                              > > breate out. now try that for 5 min. go ahead and try it. What
                              > > happen? Did you find that there wasn't room in your head for all
                              > the
                              > > chatter this time? Most of the time you can only think of
                              one
                              > > think at a time so when you pratice one of these your mind
                              chatter
                              > > should cease. If you find your self losing track of were you are
                              > > just go back to your practice. When any thoughts come just say
                              > > thinking thinking go back to your practice. Try this and get
                              back
                              > > with me please.
                              > > > Thanks Trina.
                              > > > Namaste Bob Hart
                            • sarif mir
                              Thanks trina sarifmir T. wrote: How did you learn how to meditate? Trina ... no ... separation, ME . ... an ... can ... course, ...
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jan 27, 2005
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                                Thanks trina
                                sarifmir

                                "T." <jedsgirl522@...> wrote:

                                How did you learn how to meditate?

                                Trina


                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "n0by"
                                <n0by4you@y...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > In true meditation the meditator and the object of meditation are
                                no
                                > longer present.
                                > If there is intention to meditate then this intention, this doing,
                                > is coming from a doer. It comes from the concept of
                                separation, "ME".
                                > When meditation happens there is no one to whom it happens, no
                                > happener making it happen.
                                > Such moments cannot be brought about by methods, techniques or
                                > practices as these are all ego based, based upon the idea that one
                                > is not already existence itself.
                                > The impulse to meditate arises when the action of seeking is
                                > believed to be coming from a seeker, from "otherness", and this in
                                > turn creates something to be sought. Seeking is an activity, NOT
                                an
                                > entity, in consciousness.
                                > That which the seeking arises from is what is being sought. When
                                > this is intuitively understood no deliberate attempt to meditate
                                can
                                > arise as the impulse to do so is no longer present, having been
                                > severed at the root by the realisation that there is only Oneness,
                                > that one is already what was being sought.
                                > This is true meditation, there is no longer a meditator, simply
                                > meditation happening.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "T."
                                > <jedsgirl522@y...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Okay!  I tried what you suggested.  First - my mind was of
                                course,
                                > > pretty loud and busy.  I'm sure you expected that.  I  just
                                > listened
                                > > to it and took some "mental notes".  Didn't seem really chaotic -

                                > > just busy.
                                > >
                                > > Then I tried the counting technique - and I fell asleep the
                                first
                                > > time (dang!!) BUT - I tried the counting technique again tonight
                                > and
                                > > although I did a lot of thinking (dang!!) I just did what you
                                > > suggested and mentally said "thinking" and went back to
                                counting. 
                                > > I'm not sure that I accomplished any sort of medatative state -
                                > > however I was PLEASED to see that when I opened my eyes, 8
                                minutes
                                > > had passed when I was SURE it would be only 3 or 4.  So, that
                                was
                                > > GOOD.
                                > >
                                > > I felt pretty relaxed and my hands and feet had a slight tingle
                                and
                                > > I was surprised at how LONG it took to get to 10 (thinking!!
                                LOL) -
                                > > so, all in all I feel like it was a good experience.   I will
                                > > continue to use this method and keep you updated. 
                                > >
                                > > Looking forward to my next lesson!  *wink* and THANK YOU for
                                taking
                                > > the time with me - to teach me.  I really appreciate you!
                                > >
                                > > Trina
                                > >
                                > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bob Hart
                                > > <hartbd_62521@y...> wrote:
                                > > > Hi Trina, try this, 1. first for 5 min just sit and watch what
                                > > goes on in your mind, don't try and do anything, just observe,
                                eyes
                                > > closed go ahead and do it now._____________________ Good what
                                did
                                > > you see? what did you hear? there probably was a lot going on in
                                > > your head right? OK  lesson 2. for 5 min choose one of these
                                > > practices, on the out breath count 1 every out breath count
                                untill
                                > > you get to 10 then start over ,, eyes closed both practices this
                                > one
                                > > just say breathing in as you breat in and breathing out as you
                                > > breate out. now try that for 5 min. go ahead and try it.  What
                                > > happen? Did you find that there wasn't room in your head for all
                                > the
                                > > chatter this time?     Most of the time you can only think of
                                one
                                > > think at a time so when you pratice one of these your mind
                                chatter
                                > > should cease. If you find your self losing track of were you are
                                > > just go back to your practice. When any thoughts come just say
                                > > thinking thinking go back to your practice. Try this and get
                                back
                                > > with me please.
                                > > >  Thanks Trina.
                                > > > Namaste Bob Hart




                                Do you Yahoo!?
                                Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'

                              • Savitri &Kamalakar Rambhatla
                                Hai: I am a silent member of this group and reading and enjoying the info posted. Meditation is the key regardless of what method and who taught it. Just as
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jan 27, 2005
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                                  Hai:
                                  I am a silent member of this group and reading and enjoying the info posted. Meditation is the key regardless of what method and who taught it. Just as two human beings are not the same, every person has unique awareness and the inert energy within us can come to the surface with meditation. I can suggest for those interested to visit www.dhyanapeetam.org and watch the enlightened master swami Nithyananda, a young 28 year old from Bangalore. He has given us only half hour meditation per day easily done by anybody. Infact he has trained acharyas last year who are now conducting life bliss program all over US, which cleanses and energises our 7 major chakras or centers. If anybody is interested further, please write to me. I am in Los Angeles.
                                   
                                  Sri Nithya Swabav

                                  "T." <jedsgirl522@...> wrote:

                                  How did you learn how to meditate?

                                  Trina


                                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "n0by"
                                  <n0by4you@y...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > In true meditation the meditator and the object of meditation are
                                  no
                                  > longer present.
                                  > If there is intention to meditate then this intention, this doing,
                                  > is coming from a doer. It comes from the concept of
                                  separation, "ME".
                                  > When meditation happens there is no one to whom it happens, no
                                  > happener making it happen.
                                  > Such moments cannot be brought about by methods, techniques or
                                  > practices as these are all ego based, based upon the idea that one
                                  > is not already existence itself.
                                  > The impulse to meditate arises when the action of seeking is
                                  > believed to be coming from a seeker, from "otherness", and this in
                                  > turn creates something to be sought. Seeking is an activity, NOT
                                  an
                                  > entity, in consciousness.
                                  > That which the seeking arises from is what is being sought. When
                                  > this is intuitively understood no deliberate attempt to meditate
                                  can
                                  > arise as the impulse to do so is no longer present, having been
                                  > severed at the root by the realisation that there is only Oneness,
                                  > that one is already what was being sought.
                                  > This is true meditation, there is no longer a meditator, simply
                                  > meditation happening.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "T."
                                  > <jedsgirl522@y...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Okay!  I tried what you suggested.  First - my mind was of
                                  course,
                                  > > pretty loud and busy.  I'm sure you expected that.  I  just
                                  > listened
                                  > > to it and took some "mental notes".  Didn't seem really chaotic -

                                  > > just busy.
                                  > >
                                  > > Then I tried the counting technique - and I fell asleep the
                                  first
                                  > > time (dang!!) BUT - I tried the counting technique again tonight
                                  > and
                                  > > although I did a lot of thinking (dang!!) I just did what you
                                  > > suggested and mentally said "thinking" and went back to
                                  counting. 
                                  > > I'm not sure that I accomplished any sort of medatative state -
                                  > > however I was PLEASED to see that when I opened my eyes, 8
                                  minutes
                                  > > had passed when I was SURE it would be only 3 or 4.  So, that
                                  was
                                  > > GOOD.
                                  > >
                                  > > I felt pretty relaxed and my hands and feet had a slight tingle
                                  and
                                  > > I was surprised at how LONG it took to get to 10 (thinking!!
                                  LOL) -
                                  > > so, all in all I feel like it was a good experience.   I will
                                  > > continue to use this method and keep you updated. 
                                  > >
                                  > > Looking forward to my next lesson!  *wink* and THANK YOU for
                                  taking
                                  > > the time with me - to teach me.  I really appreciate you!
                                  > >
                                  > > Trina
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bob Hart
                                  > > <hartbd_62521@y...> wrote:
                                  > > > Hi Trina, try this, 1. first for 5 min just sit and watch what
                                  > > goes on in your mind, don't try and do anything, just observe,
                                  eyes
                                  > > closed go ahead and do it now._____________________ Good what
                                  did
                                  > > you see? what did you hear? there probably was a lot going on in
                                  > > your head right? OK  lesson 2. for 5 min choose one of these
                                  > > practices, on the out breath count 1 every out breath count
                                  untill
                                  > > you get to 10 then start over ,, eyes closed both practices this
                                  > one
                                  > > just say breathing in as you breat in and breathing out as you
                                  > > breate out. now try that for 5 min. go ahead and try it.  What
                                  > > happen? Did you find that there wasn't room in your head for all
                                  > the
                                  > > chatter this time?     Most of the time you can only think of
                                  one
                                  > > think at a time so when you pratice one of these your mind
                                  chatter
                                  > > should cease. If you find your self losing track of were you are
                                  > > just go back to your practice. When any thoughts come just say
                                  > > thinking thinking go back to your practice. Try this and get
                                  back
                                  > > with me please.
                                  > > >  Thanks Trina.
                                  > > > Namaste Bob Hart



                                • Bob Hart
                                  Hi Trina, i m glad you had a good experience. Keep practaceing i ll send you a new meditation in a week of so. The whole idea of meditation is simplly to quiet
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jan 27, 2005
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                                    Hi Trina, i'm glad you had a good experience. Keep practaceing i'll send you a new meditation in a week of so. The whole idea of meditation is simplly to quiet the chatter in the mind. That doesn't sound like much but it is enormus. Namaste Bob Hart
                                  • Bob Hart
                                    HI Trina, Bob Hart here. I learned how to meditate through books audio tapes and recently in person in a meditation class. There are thousands of types of
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jan 27, 2005
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                                      HI Trina, Bob Hart here. I learned how to meditate through books audio tapes and recently in person in a meditation class. There are thousands of types of meditation and most of them are good.  Namaste Bob Hart
                                    • Bob Hart
                                      Hi Sri Nithy Swabav,I checked out the site you recommended and really liked what it had to say I ll go back when I have more time. Namaste Bob Hart
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jan 27, 2005
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                                        Hi Sri Nithy Swabav,I checked out the site you recommended and really liked what it had to say I'll go back when I have more time.  Namaste Bob Hart
                                      • T.
                                        ??? I just really want to say Thank You myself to those of you who have taken the time to share with me. Trina ... doing, ... one ... in ... Oneness, ...
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jan 27, 2005
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                                          ???

                                          I just really want to say Thank You myself to those of you who have
                                          taken the time to share with me.

                                          Trina


                                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sarif mir
                                          <sarifmir@y...> wrote:
                                          > Thanks trina
                                          > sarifmir
                                          >
                                          > "T." <jedsgirl522@y...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > How did you learn how to meditate?
                                          >
                                          > Trina
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "n0by"
                                          > <n0by4you@y...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > In true meditation the meditator and the object of meditation are
                                          > no
                                          > > longer present.
                                          > > If there is intention to meditate then this intention, this
                                          doing,
                                          > > is coming from a doer. It comes from the concept of
                                          > separation, "ME".
                                          > > When meditation happens there is no one to whom it happens, no
                                          > > happener making it happen.
                                          > > Such moments cannot be brought about by methods, techniques or
                                          > > practices as these are all ego based, based upon the idea that
                                          one
                                          > > is not already existence itself.
                                          > > The impulse to meditate arises when the action of seeking is
                                          > > believed to be coming from a seeker, from "otherness", and this
                                          in
                                          > > turn creates something to be sought. Seeking is an activity, NOT
                                          > an
                                          > > entity, in consciousness.
                                          > > That which the seeking arises from is what is being sought. When
                                          > > this is intuitively understood no deliberate attempt to meditate
                                          > can
                                          > > arise as the impulse to do so is no longer present, having been
                                          > > severed at the root by the realisation that there is only
                                          Oneness,
                                          > > that one is already what was being sought.
                                          > > This is true meditation, there is no longer a meditator, simply
                                          > > meditation happening.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "T."
                                          > > <jedsgirl522@y...> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Okay! I tried what you suggested. First - my mind was of
                                          > course,
                                          > > > pretty loud and busy. I'm sure you expected that. I just
                                          > > listened
                                          > > > to it and took some "mental notes". Didn't seem really
                                          chaotic -
                                          >
                                          > > > just busy.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Then I tried the counting technique - and I fell asleep the
                                          > first
                                          > > > time (dang!!) BUT - I tried the counting technique again
                                          tonight
                                          > > and
                                          > > > although I did a lot of thinking (dang!!) I just did what you
                                          > > > suggested and mentally said "thinking" and went back to
                                          > counting.
                                          > > > I'm not sure that I accomplished any sort of medatative state -
                                          > > > however I was PLEASED to see that when I opened my eyes, 8
                                          > minutes
                                          > > > had passed when I was SURE it would be only 3 or 4. So, that
                                          > was
                                          > > > GOOD.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I felt pretty relaxed and my hands and feet had a slight tingle
                                          > and
                                          > > > I was surprised at how LONG it took to get to 10 (thinking!!
                                          > LOL) -
                                          > > > so, all in all I feel like it was a good experience. I will
                                          > > > continue to use this method and keep you updated.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Looking forward to my next lesson! *wink* and THANK YOU for
                                          > taking
                                          > > > the time with me - to teach me. I really appreciate you!
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Trina
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bob Hart
                                          > > > <hartbd_62521@y...> wrote:
                                          > > > > Hi Trina, try this, 1. first for 5 min just sit and watch
                                          what
                                          > > > goes on in your mind, don't try and do anything, just observe,
                                          > eyes
                                          > > > closed go ahead and do it now._____________________ Good what
                                          > did
                                          > > > you see? what did you hear? there probably was a lot going on
                                          in
                                          > > > your head right? OK lesson 2. for 5 min choose one of these
                                          > > > practices, on the out breath count 1 every out breath count
                                          > untill
                                          > > > you get to 10 then start over ,, eyes closed both practices
                                          this
                                          > > one
                                          > > > just say breathing in as you breat in and breathing out as you
                                          > > > breate out. now try that for 5 min. go ahead and try it. What
                                          > > > happen? Did you find that there wasn't room in your head for
                                          all
                                          > > the
                                          > > > chatter this time? Most of the time you can only think of
                                          > one
                                          > > > think at a time so when you pratice one of these your mind
                                          > chatter
                                          > > > should cease. If you find your self losing track of were you
                                          are
                                          > > > just go back to your practice. When any thoughts come just say
                                          > > > thinking thinking go back to your practice. Try this and get
                                          > back
                                          > > > with me please.
                                          > > > > Thanks Trina.
                                          > > > > Namaste Bob Hart
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ---------------------------------
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                                          >
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                                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meditationsocietyofamerica/
                                          >
                                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                          > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          >
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                                          Service.
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                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ---------------------------------
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                                        • T.
                                          *snappy salute* You got it, chief! Thanks AGAIN!! A chatter-free mind sounds like a GREAT start to me!! Trina ... send you a new meditation in a week of so.
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jan 27, 2005
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                                            *snappy salute*

                                            You got it, chief!

                                            Thanks AGAIN!! A chatter-free mind sounds like a GREAT start to me!!

                                            Trina


                                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bob Hart
                                            <hartbd_62521@y...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hi Trina, i'm glad you had a good experience. Keep practaceing i'll
                                            send you a new meditation in a week of so. The whole idea of
                                            meditation is simplly to quiet the chatter in the mind. That doesn't
                                            sound like much but it is enormus. Namaste Bob Hart
                                          • Savitri &Kamalakar Rambhatla
                                            If stopping hte inner chattering is so easy then meditation should be a piece of cake. In order to stop inner mental chattering, one meditation technique is to
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jan 27, 2005
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                                              If stopping hte inner chattering is so easy then meditation should be a piece of cake. In order to stop inner mental chattering, one meditation technique is to meditate with a mahamantra CD. This CD has 20 minutes of humming with eyes closed and the eyeballs must be made not to move by exerting presuure on it from inside. As you hum deeply and loudly you will generate a feeling of being hollow like banboo and this sound pervades you and inner chattering will stop. After 20 minutees you can then be silent and focus on your heart center ( Anahata chakra) and the music will stop after 10 minutes. This meditation technique from Swami Nithyanada is so powerful that it will transform the being.
                                               
                                              jai Gurudev
                                              Kamalakar

                                              "T." <jedsgirl522@...> wrote:

                                              ???

                                              I just really want to say Thank You myself to those of you who have
                                              taken the time to share with me.

                                              Trina


                                              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sarif mir
                                              <sarifmir@y...> wrote:
                                              > Thanks trina
                                              > sarifmir
                                              >
                                              > "T." <jedsgirl522@y...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > How did you learn how to meditate?
                                              >
                                              > Trina
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "n0by"
                                              > <n0by4you@y...> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > In true meditation the meditator and the object of meditation are
                                              > no
                                              > > longer present.
                                              > > If there is intention to meditate then this intention, this
                                              doing,
                                              > > is coming from a doer. It comes from the concept of
                                              > separation, "ME".
                                              > > When meditation happens there is no one to whom it happens, no
                                              > > happener making it happen.
                                              > > Such moments cannot be brought about by methods, techniques or
                                              > > practices as these are all ego based, based upon the idea that
                                              one
                                              > > is not already existence itself.
                                              > > The impulse to meditate arises when the action of seeking is
                                              > > believed to be coming from a seeker, from "otherness", and this
                                              in
                                              > > turn creates something to be sought. Seeking is an activity, NOT
                                              > an
                                              > > entity, in consciousness.
                                              > > That which the seeking arises from is what is being sought. When
                                              > > this is intuitively understood no deliberate attempt to meditate
                                              > can
                                              > > arise as the impulse to do so is no longer present, having been
                                              > > severed at the root by the realisation that there is only
                                              Oneness,
                                              > > that one is already what was being sought.
                                              > > This is true meditation, there is no longer a meditator, simply
                                              > > meditation happening.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "T."
                                              > > <jedsgirl522@y...> wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Okay!  I tried what you suggested.  First - my mind was of
                                              > course,
                                              > > > pretty loud and busy.  I'm sure you expected that.  I  just
                                              > > listened
                                              > > > to it and took some "mental notes".  Didn't seem really
                                              chaotic -
                                              >
                                              > > > just busy.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Then I tried the counting technique - and I fell asleep the
                                              > first
                                              > > > time (dang!!) BUT - I tried the counting technique again
                                              tonight
                                              > > and
                                              > > > although I did a lot of thinking (dang!!) I just did what you
                                              > > > suggested and mentally said "thinking" and went back to
                                              > counting. 
                                              > > > I'm not sure that I accomplished any sort of medatative state -
                                              > > > however I was PLEASED to see that when I opened my eyes, 8
                                              > minutes
                                              > > > had passed when I was SURE it would be only 3 or 4.  So, that
                                              > was
                                              > > > GOOD.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > I felt pretty relaxed and my hands and feet had a slight tingle
                                              > and
                                              > > > I was surprised at how LONG it took to get to 10 (thinking!!
                                              > LOL) -
                                              > > > so, all in all I feel like it was a good experience.   I will
                                              > > > continue to use this method and keep you updated. 
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Looking forward to my next lesson!  *wink* and THANK YOU for
                                              > taking
                                              > > > the time with me - to teach me.  I really appreciate you!
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Trina
                                              > > >
                                              > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bob Hart
                                              > > > <hartbd_62521@y...> wrote:
                                              > > > > Hi Trina, try this, 1. first for 5 min just sit and watch
                                              what
                                              > > > goes on in your mind, don't try and do anything, just observe,
                                              > eyes
                                              > > > closed go ahead and do it now._____________________ Good what
                                              > did
                                              > > > you see? what did you hear? there probably was a lot going on
                                              in
                                              > > > your head right? OK  lesson 2. for 5 min choose one of these
                                              > > > practices, on the out breath count 1 every out breath count
                                              > untill
                                              > > > you get to 10 then start over ,, eyes closed both practices
                                              this
                                              > > one
                                              > > > just say breathing in as you breat in and breathing out as you
                                              > > > breate out. now try that for 5 min. go ahead and try it.  What
                                              > > > happen? Did you find that there wasn't room in your head for
                                              all
                                              > > the
                                              > > > chatter this time?     Most of the time you can only think of
                                              > one
                                              > > > think at a time so when you pratice one of these your mind
                                              > chatter
                                              > > > should cease. If you find your self losing track of were you
                                              are
                                              > > > just go back to your practice. When any thoughts come just say
                                              > > > thinking thinking go back to your practice. Try this and get
                                              > back
                                              > > > with me please.
                                              > > > >  Thanks Trina.
                                              > > > > Namaste Bob Hart
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ---------------------------------
                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              >    To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meditationsocietyofamerica/
                                              >  
                                              >    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                              > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              >  
                                              >    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                              Service.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >            
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                                              >  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'



                                            • Bob Hart
                                              Namaste Jai. Meditation is easy . It does take a lot ot practice through. I like what you have written. Bob Hart
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Jan 28, 2005
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                                                  Namaste Jai.  Meditation is easy . It does take a lot ot practice through. I like what you have written. Bob Hart                                                                                                    
                                                If stopping hte inner chattering is so easy then meditation should be a piece of cake. In order to stop inner mental chattering, one meditation technique is to meditate with a mahamantra CD. This CD has 20 minutes of humming with eyes closed and the eyeballs must be made not to move by exerting presuure on it from inside. As you hum deeply and loudly you will generate a feeling of being hollow like banboo and this sound pervades you and inner chattering will stop. After 20 minutees you can then be silent and focus on your heart center ( Anahata chakra) and the music will stop after 10 minutes. This meditation technique from Swami Nithyanada is so powerful that it will transform the being.
                                                 
                                                jai Gurudev
                                                Kamalakar
                                                                                                      
                                              • �:-)
                                                Without the willingness to pass the most difficult situations, I would have never learned anything - therefore you read nothing but stories and have the chance
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Jan 31, 2005
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                                                  Without the willingness to pass the
                                                  most difficult situations, I would have
                                                  never learned anything - therefore
                                                  you read nothing but stories and
                                                  have the chance to join a gathering,
                                                  without any support for your expectations.

                                                  The core of all ''learning'' is the destruction
                                                  of expectations. By this you recognize
                                                  a true from a false teacher: a false teacher
                                                  feeds your expectations with flatteries,
                                                  promises, lies - a true teacher creates
                                                  nothing but frustrations - either you learn
                                                  - or you escape in any sorts of fantasies.

                                                  Now - if you read this example - it's up
                                                  to you to decide: ''are these fantasies
                                                  or a description of living reality?''

                                                   

                                                  Lermoos, Ehrwald, Biberwier

                                                  click thumbnail to start the show


                                                  Saturday morning 5.00 a.m.. Munich, 10 degrees below zero. 10 Celsius degrees minus.. The cover from the car's chimney is frozen. One hour runs the engine in our street, in front of our house, to warm up the room, to free the ice and snow from the windows. With a broom I push the snow from the roof. After one and half hour the car is ready for the road.

                                                  In Garmisch Partenkirchen the first sun baptizes the ''Kramer-Spitze'' in white golden light.

                                                  The first villages in Austria, Ehrwald, Leermoos are even colder: 14 degrees Celsius below zero. It's hard to drive. The parking places are fully frozen, everywhere ice and snow. With the ESP (electronic stability program) in the front-wheel drive the car runs marvellous.

                                                  Bus loads of young people enjoy this ski week ends. Around 30 big busses bring the adventurous youngsters with snow boards and skies.

                                                  Therefore many people line up in front of three cashpoints. I have to wait nearly an hour. Then at 11.00 a.m. I get my ticket for 28 Euro, 3 Euro less than the full day ticket. From 9.00 a.m. till 4.00 p.m. many different mountain elevators pump the sportsmen on the top.

                                                  Skiing is hard work. At noon I have to rest in the car and cook tea. To do this, I have to put off the ski shoes.. In the living area of my motor home I move without shoes. To take of f and later on again the ski shoes is hard work too. It's hard to walk in heavy ski shoes. It's even hard find out under four trousers with two shirts, sweater, woollen jacket the machin to pee.


                                                  My job in Munich is easy to do. Four days only I will work in the future. So my week ends are three days long. These week end bring new lust for life.

                                                  When I stay too long at home and in the job with reduced energy there is danger, to fall in depressive mood. Mind starts to doubt all and everything. Hurting questions are hunting me: ''For what all these efforts? Now, when my child earns money for herself, can't I let fall me deeper and deeper, until I'm down and out? Out of the rat race for money, reputation, a little bit of luxury? Can't I sell both my cars? Is it not enough, to sit at home and watch the day go by?''

                                                  On top of the hill, finally in 2040 Meters above sea level, the beauty of these mountains is not to describe! Sun warms the body. Clouds in the valley mirror the white sun with blending rays. White snow crystals flow through the air like diamond needles. Each shining snow needle dances in an abundance of light.

                                                  On the top of the hill I feel again, for what I'm still fighting for. My beard is full of ice. The ice wind hinders to drive down to the valley. The only time I drive the long way down, I rest in the car, cook water, prepare tea and sip the hot brew slowly.

                                                  Back in the sun above the clouds in the valley the body tanks warmth. After all I have to drive down. In Ehrwald a sauna bath heats up my body, afterwards a hot soup in the car does the same. The night can come. 10.00 p.m,. running engine and gas oven together warm up the car inside to 20 degrees. 12 degrees minus outside. Bed time.

                                                  Sunday, 5.a.m.: the yellow half moon shines with cold light into the windows. 18 degrees below Zero outside, eight degrees plus inside. The ventilator of the gas oven I switch on to the second gear. With this I start the engine too. Tea for breakfast and around an hour full heating the temperature inside climbs up to 14 degrees plus.

                                                  This cold Sunday I drive to the next little village: Biberwier. The same mountain I climbed up end of August last year. Today I only buy a half day ticket - till 1.00 p.m. My bones are getting older: on Valentine's day, two weeks from now, I celebrate my 57 birthday.

                                                  A ready made Chinese soup, coffee and cake give me the energy, to drive home. The traffic jam towards Munich is not yet thick. When I come home and park the car in front of our home, Mimamai comes home on her bike too. She learns this week end for her job: ''how to save life?''

                                                  I admire her discipline. So thankful I feel for all her love. In time of pain, in the dentist chair or in the ice cold chair, bringing me up in the freezing mountain morning, I hypnotize myself with a most consoling imagination: "We lay in bed. She warms my belly with her back."

                                                   


                                                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "T."
                                                  wrote:

                                                  How did you learn how to meditate?

                                                  Trina




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