Do we get residuals on re-runs Jody?
- Hi Jody -
This is interesting to consider -
the difference between therapy and
meditation. Our personal crossfire
positions are clear (at least to us).
So no rerun, but in this
time of political debate - equal
time (words, bites, bytes):
Certainly, psychology offers a
proven model for dealing with
life's perceived ups and downs.
And so does meditation. They
just come at it from different
angles (some inner, some outer).
blends the goal of psychotherapy
and the "supreme" goal of meditation.
Without a sound psychological
worldview, meditation may have
little value, so I agree that
adjunct therapy may be wise, but
it depends on what the "seeker"
is seeking in meditation, and
of course, what issues are
disrupting peace of mind.
Here's where therapy takes
return fire from your wild meditation
Much psychotherapy is focused on
reassessment of life experiences;
kind of, "If I only knew then,
what I know now". For example,
when one looks back at an event
that had a powerful impact, at
an earlier point in life and
reassesses their reaction from
a more mature and insightful
point of view, it is thought
that they can find emotional
release from that earlier impact,
realize that their reaction was
immature and even a misinterpretation,
and thereby effect an emotional
Unfortunately, what so often
happens in therapy; such as in
support groups and the constellation
model, is that the revisiting
and stirring of old issues effects
something very much like kicking
old horseshit. The stink returns
and the earlier emotional impact,
rather than being lessened,
Nice theory, catharsis,
but in many (if not most) cases
there is no release, only a
revisiting of a bad dream, over
and over and over...for years.
The "patient" never finds release
and comes to be ensnared in the
support group's childish
sentimentality - and all the
personal attention it brings.
At this point, the one who comes
for therapy has discovered a
way to become the focus of
attention, the recipient of
endless hugs and tears...and
this is their pay off. No way
will they let go of the emotional
impact, because each time they
rerun the movie, they get all
kinds of sympathy and attention.
Of course, both meditation and
therapy are infused with "teachers"
who harbor "superstitious" imaginings
and feed on others to support
their own egoic need to feel superior
or even "supernatural". They each
sell their own brand of horseshit
to some unsuspecting people
who come for guidance/therapy...and the
results are often disappointment and
This isn't universal, and certainly
groups like AA and other support
structures have helped many people,
and probably saved many lives, and
many enlightened therapists bring
an intentional "applied metaphysics"
to therapy. And spiritual communities
typically hum with peace of mind
and goodwill. (Unless someone
is stuck in the late 60s and early
Meditation is a different matter:
Nice theory, meditation. The idea
that entering a silence of the mind
will trigger a "response" from God,
from our higher Self, is one that
has captured the imagination since...
most probably before recorded
history. Certainly history records
testimony of meditation's efficacy
in dealing with a broad range of
human "ills". The mystic path
is known to virtually all religions
and spiritual traditions.
Satsang points to this - it is not
where IT is found, but is can
provide a "lamp unto our feet"
that may guide us to a realization
of our true home - within God.
And on a less lofty plane, there
are a kazillion reports of today's
meditators reporting improved
stress management and ability
to relax, more non-judgmental
acceptance of other personality
types, improved relationships
and more positive self-talk
a renewed enthusiasm for life/career
goals ((not to mention the host of
physiological benefits of
meditation) ...to name a few.
To return to a spiritual context...
Meditation potentially holds a key
to the entrance to another realm.
This is not therapy, in the classic
sense. Entrance into this realm,
beyond space and time, into the
eternal holy moment, requires
"death" of all previously held
concepts, a beginner's mind, an
emptying, a total surrender...
a willingness to die to the former
self, and the opportunity to
meet the Self - an entirely new
(or possibly newly remembered)
Self. The needy neurotic who
comes to the master meditation
teacher as a sincere student
may receive the unique healing,
another sort of resolution, an
entirely new perspective on what
seemed to be difficult circumstances,
a startling new "wisdom", a
gnosis that cures neurosis.
To find the right key that
unlocks the door to peace of mind
and perfect resolution of past
problems and pain of remorse,
is to be "reborn" a Self of pure
existential courage, to know
perfect peace of mind and
a joy unspeakable...
At this level of meditation
theistic language is often
used...God is remembered.
Our intimate "place" within
God is remembered.
Meditation may opened the door to
this "heavenly, eternal" realm,
but the decision to enter into the
"enlightenment" or "awakening"
or "holy of holies" is left to
the "seeker". The teacher points the
way, and offers guidance along
the path, drawing upon his or her
own direct personal experience of
having entered the place beyond
time and space, where a new
being replaced the old one.
As Jesus, said, "We (teachers)
know of what we speak."
This is the role of the true, ardent
and sometimes over-enthusiastic
Boddhisattva. They wait, either on
this earthly plane, or on what might be
called the astral plane (beyond
space and time - as in where
Jesus resides for those who
have "met" him) at the entrance
to this "changing room", this
place of removal of darkness
(gu-ru means "darkness remover")
as in a darkened consciousness,
as servants to those sentient
beings who have come to the
point of earnest aspiration.
This shift in perception, known
to one who has emerged from God's
changing room, is not gained as
a result of a new rational insight
or a more mature reaction to
past life experiences. This
change is, in a manner of speaking,
pure grace - God's work. Grace
gives new life, a new being, a new
knowing (gnosis - the gnosis
that cures neurosis) that changes
everything - while changing
nothing. No words suffice.
The shift is only known
Meditators and therapy clients
meet each other going the other
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "jodyrrr"
> --- In email@example.com, GregGoode
> <goode@d...> wrote:
> > At 06:50 PM 8/30/2004 +0000, jodyrrr wrote:
> > >Hey Jack.
> > >
> > >Have you thought about trying psychotherapy?
> > >I truly believe that *everyone* would benefit
> > >from the counsel of a good therapist, regardless
> > >of whether they may be considered a victim of
> > >a psychopathology.
> > >
> > >The trick is finding a good one, but if and when
> > >you do, in concert with your meditation, you may
> > >find the boost you need to get through the rough
> > >patches we all encounter in our lives (often
> > >closely related to those rough patches we've
> > >already been through.)
> > ===Let me second this! I'm very glad to hear
> > favorable recommendations about psychotherapy,
> > since it is fashionable in some recent spiritual
> > quarters to claim that psychotherapy will impede
> > spiritual progress. Not true! I know several
> > people who left the neo-advaita satsang movement,
> > began psychotherapy, and are no longer seeking
> > what they sought from satsang.
> > --Greg
> Absolutely. That's because (and I know that you
> know this) that what they were seeking in satsang,
> they were never going to get there.
> Most folks come to spirituality looking for self-
> improvement, because they are operating under a
> cloud of self-loathing. By finding a guru and
> achieving his/her love, they believe they will be
> able to love themselves. Unfortunately, it doesn't
> always work this way. In fact, it rarely does.
> A quick survey of any bigtime guru's community
> will prove this. There is a higher concentration
> of emotionally fucked-up people there than in
> almost any other gathering of individuals.
> Getting God and seeking the Self are good things,
> but this is not the same as finding inner clarity,
> which requires a rigorous and brutally honest self-
> examination. There are very few gurus who can truly
> help you with that. A good therapist can, and will,
> if you are lucky enough to find one.
- --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Jeff Belyea"
> Hi Jody -Hey Jeff.
> Certainly, psychology offers aPerhaps. However, I'd contend that's
> proven model for dealing with
> life's perceived ups and downs.
> And so does meditation.
a new development. IOW, that wasn't
part of the original specification.
Meditation did not develop as a self-
help technique. That came in the early
Making meditation a replacement for
psychotherapy may extend its marketability,
but it's not an approach that all meditation
teachers would recommend.
> Much psychotherapy is focused onNot exactly. Psychotherapy is about
> reassessment of life experiences;
relieving emotional tension. One way
to accomplish this is by way of life
assessement. The reassessment comes
after, when the emotional polarity
has been somewhat neutralized.
> kind of, "If I only knew then,That's not my impression of psycho-
> what I know now". For example,
> when one looks back at an event
> that had a powerful impact, at
> an earlier point in life and
> reassesses their reaction from
> a more mature and insightful
> point of view, it is thought
> that they can find emotional
> release from that earlier impact,
> realize that their reaction was
> immature and even a misinterpretation,
> and thereby effect an emotional
therapy at all. It's reliving past
events to unlock the emotional potential
that is stored there. That happens
completely outside of any subjective
evaluations as to what was correct
or incorrect about the reaction at
This isn't to say that looking back
doesn't reveal the mistakes we made,
but a good psychotherapist isn't going
to view them as such, nor recommmend that
they be viewed as mistakes by their clients.
> Unfortunately, what so oftenThat's not the fault of psychotherapy,
> happens in therapy; such as in
> support groups and the constellation
> model, is that the revisiting
> and stirring of old issues effects
> something very much like kicking
> old horseshit. The stink returns
> and the earlier emotional impact,
> rather than being lessened,
> is exacerbated.
just a crappy therapist.
> Nice theory, catharsis,That statement seemingly contradicts
> but in many (if not most) cases
> there is no release, only a
> revisiting of a bad dream, over
> and over and over...for years.
my entire life.
> The "patient" never finds releaseAgain, bad therapist. No cookie.
> and comes to be ensnared in the
> support group's childish
> sentimentality - and all the
> personal attention it brings.
> At this point, the one who comes
> for therapy has discovered a
> way to become the focus of
> attention, the recipient of
> endless hugs and tears...and
> this is their pay off. No way
> will they let go of the emotional
> impact, because each time they
> rerun the movie, they get all
> kinds of sympathy and attention.
> Nice theory, meditation. The ideaThat's your theory of meditation, Jeff.
> that entering a silence of the mind
> will trigger a "response" from God,
> from our higher Self, is one that
> has captured the imagination since...
Mine is this: mind is entrained by the
repetition of mantra, or silence, or
whatever. Mental discipline follows,
and mind content becomes less cluttered.
That's the ideal situation. In many folks,
dark stuff gets stirred up. It has to for
progress to occur. A [good] therapist can
be very helpful if this occurs, and it does
occur. It did in me, and in a number of
others I've known in my life.
IOW, a good, effective meditation practice
isn't always peaches and creme. In fact, if
you don't run into a few shadows, it's not
doing much of anything for you with regards
to personal transformation, IMO.
> Meditators and therapy clientsAnd some find that by walking in both
> meet each other going the other
> way everyday.
directions, they end up just where they wanted
to be more quickly and with more clarity than
if they'd just gone one way or the other.
- Thanks, Jody. It seems that
meditation, yoga, visualization,
guided imagery, relaxation
techniques and even contemporary
hypnotherapy - acknowledged in
1957 by the medical establishment
(sorry for the hold-over hippie
vocabulary) are being blended
more and more into "mainstream"
therapies and overall healthcare,
education, business and sport.
Billions are being spent on
these "alternative or complementary"
approaches to well-being. And
sometimes, they go more
efficiently and wholistically
to the "heart" of the matter.
Agreed that a combination
of good counsel and meditation
can be the best route for some.
The spiritual aspect of meditation
need not get lost in its relatively
new role in the self-help (Self-help)
arena. Even here, it can be
breakthrough-useful as an
God most probably doesn't
need man's psychotherapy. (ü)
- --- In email@example.com, "Jeff Belyea"
> The spiritual aspect of meditationOnly when He manifests as us men (and women.)
> need not get lost in its relatively
> new role in the self-help (Self-help)
> arena. Even here, it can be
> breakthrough-useful as an
> "applied metaphysics".
> God most probably doesn't
> need man's psychotherapy. (ü)
- --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "jodyrrr"
> --- In email@example.com, "JeffBelyea"
> <jeff@m...> wrote:Sure, even though we are
> > The spiritual aspect of meditation
> > need not get lost in its relatively
> > new role in the self-help (Self-help)
> > arena. Even here, it can be
> > breakthrough-useful as an
> > "applied metaphysics".
> > God most probably doesn't
> > need man's psychotherapy. (ü)
> Only when He manifests as us men (and women.)
> > Best,
> > Jeff
made manifest in the image of God,
what is encountered (or possibly
wired into us) when manifested
in this physical, rational form,
is the genesis of the feeling of
separation - what is called maya
or illusion in some traditions; and
the feeling that we are (our identity is)
the manifest, rather than the spirit,
a spark of God's own fire.
Forgetting that we are within God,
or being coerced out of knowing this
(socialization - being force-fed from
the tree of duality) is what prepares
the ground for dark disturbing doubts -
not only about religion or sprituality, but
about who we are at our core.
Meditation, at its loftiest, is one
vehicle for dispelling the notion
that we are separate from God.
In meditation, either formal or
the meditative state that a
mountain range or a sunrise
can provoke, we can potentially
discover that the answer to "Who Am I"
is not this manifest flesh and blood
container, but rather the Self that
is the unmanifest spirit, a play
of consciousness, eternal,
within God, inseparable from God.
Enjoying the day,