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Do we get residuals on re-runs Jody?

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  • Jeff Belyea
    Hi Jody - This is interesting to consider - the difference between therapy and meditation. Our personal crossfire positions are clear (at least to us). So no
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 30, 2004
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      Hi Jody -

      This is interesting to consider -
      the difference between therapy and
      meditation. Our personal crossfire
      positions are clear (at least to us).
      So no rerun, but in this
      time of political debate - equal
      time (words, bites, bytes):

      Certainly, psychology offers a
      proven model for dealing with
      life's perceived ups and downs.
      And so does meditation. They
      just come at it from different
      angles (some inner, some outer).
      Transformational psychology
      blends the goal of psychotherapy
      and the "supreme" goal of meditation.

      Without a sound psychological
      worldview, meditation may have
      little value, so I agree that
      adjunct therapy may be wise, but
      it depends on what the "seeker"
      is seeking in meditation, and
      of course, what issues are
      disrupting peace of mind.

      Here's where therapy takes
      return fire from your wild meditation
      buckshots:

      Much psychotherapy is focused on
      reassessment of life experiences;
      kind of, "If I only knew then,
      what I know now". For example,
      when one looks back at an event
      that had a powerful impact, at
      an earlier point in life and
      reassesses their reaction from
      a more mature and insightful
      point of view, it is thought
      that they can find emotional
      release from that earlier impact,
      realize that their reaction was
      immature and even a misinterpretation,
      and thereby effect an emotional
      healing.

      Unfortunately, what so often
      happens in therapy; such as in
      support groups and the constellation
      model, is that the revisiting
      and stirring of old issues effects
      something very much like kicking
      old horseshit. The stink returns
      and the earlier emotional impact,
      rather than being lessened,
      is exacerbated.

      Nice theory, catharsis,
      but in many (if not most) cases
      there is no release, only a
      revisiting of a bad dream, over
      and over and over...for years.
      The "patient" never finds release
      and comes to be ensnared in the
      support group's childish
      sentimentality - and all the
      personal attention it brings.
      At this point, the one who comes
      for therapy has discovered a
      way to become the focus of
      attention, the recipient of
      endless hugs and tears...and
      this is their pay off. No way
      will they let go of the emotional
      impact, because each time they
      rerun the movie, they get all
      kinds of sympathy and attention.

      Of course, both meditation and
      therapy are infused with "teachers"
      who harbor "superstitious" imaginings
      and feed on others to support
      their own egoic need to feel superior
      or even "supernatural". They each
      sell their own brand of horseshit
      to some unsuspecting people
      who come for guidance/therapy...and the
      results are often disappointment and
      emotional disaster.

      This isn't universal, and certainly
      groups like AA and other support
      structures have helped many people,
      and probably saved many lives, and
      many enlightened therapists bring
      an intentional "applied metaphysics"
      to therapy. And spiritual communities
      typically hum with peace of mind
      and goodwill. (Unless someone
      is stuck in the late 60s and early
      70s).

      Meditation is a different matter:

      Nice theory, meditation. The idea
      that entering a silence of the mind
      will trigger a "response" from God,
      from our higher Self, is one that
      has captured the imagination since...
      most probably before recorded
      history. Certainly history records
      testimony of meditation's efficacy
      in dealing with a broad range of
      human "ills". The mystic path
      is known to virtually all religions
      and spiritual traditions.

      Satsang points to this - it is not
      where IT is found, but is can
      provide a "lamp unto our feet"
      that may guide us to a realization
      of our true home - within God.

      And on a less lofty plane, there
      are a kazillion reports of today's
      meditators reporting improved
      stress management and ability
      to relax, more non-judgmental
      acceptance of other personality
      types, improved relationships
      and more positive self-talk
      a renewed enthusiasm for life/career
      goals ((not to mention the host of
      physiological benefits of
      meditation) ...to name a few.

      To return to a spiritual context...

      Meditation potentially holds a key
      to the entrance to another realm.
      This is not therapy, in the classic
      sense. Entrance into this realm,
      beyond space and time, into the
      eternal holy moment, requires
      "death" of all previously held
      concepts, a beginner's mind, an
      emptying, a total surrender...
      a willingness to die to the former
      self, and the opportunity to
      meet the Self - an entirely new
      (or possibly newly remembered)
      Self. The needy neurotic who
      comes to the master meditation
      teacher as a sincere student
      may receive the unique healing,
      another sort of resolution, an
      entirely new perspective on what
      seemed to be difficult circumstances,
      a startling new "wisdom", a
      gnosis that cures neurosis.

      To find the right key that
      unlocks the door to peace of mind
      and perfect resolution of past
      problems and pain of remorse,
      is to be "reborn" a Self of pure
      existential courage, to know
      perfect peace of mind and
      a joy unspeakable...

      At this level of meditation
      theistic language is often
      used...God is remembered.
      Our intimate "place" within
      God is remembered.

      Meditation may opened the door to
      this "heavenly, eternal" realm,
      but the decision to enter into the
      "enlightenment" or "awakening"
      or "holy of holies" is left to
      the "seeker". The teacher points the
      way, and offers guidance along
      the path, drawing upon his or her
      own direct personal experience of
      having entered the place beyond
      time and space, where a new
      being replaced the old one.

      As Jesus, said, "We (teachers)
      know of what we speak."

      This is the role of the true, ardent
      and sometimes over-enthusiastic
      Boddhisattva. They wait, either on
      this earthly plane, or on what might be
      called the astral plane (beyond
      space and time - as in where
      Jesus resides for those who
      have "met" him) at the entrance
      to this "changing room", this
      place of removal of darkness
      (gu-ru means "darkness remover")
      as in a darkened consciousness,
      as servants to those sentient
      beings who have come to the
      point of earnest aspiration.

      This shift in perception, known
      to one who has emerged from God's
      changing room, is not gained as
      a result of a new rational insight
      or a more mature reaction to
      past life experiences. This
      change is, in a manner of speaking,
      pure grace - God's work. Grace
      gives new life, a new being, a new
      knowing (gnosis - the gnosis
      that cures neurosis) that changes
      everything - while changing
      nothing. No words suffice.
      The shift is only known
      experientially.

      Meditators and therapy clients
      meet each other going the other
      way everyday.


      Papajeff






      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
      <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Greg
      Goode
      > <goode@d...> wrote:
      > > At 06:50 PM 8/30/2004 +0000, jodyrrr wrote:
      > >
      > > >Hey Jack.
      > > >
      > > >Have you thought about trying psychotherapy?
      > > >I truly believe that *everyone* would benefit
      > > >from the counsel of a good therapist, regardless
      > > >of whether they may be considered a victim of
      > > >a psychopathology.
      > > >
      > > >The trick is finding a good one, but if and when
      > > >you do, in concert with your meditation, you may
      > > >find the boost you need to get through the rough
      > > >patches we all encounter in our lives (often
      > > >closely related to those rough patches we've
      > > >already been through.)
      > >
      > >
      > > ===Let me second this! I'm very glad to hear
      > > favorable recommendations about psychotherapy,
      > > since it is fashionable in some recent spiritual
      > > quarters to claim that psychotherapy will impede
      > > spiritual progress. Not true! I know several
      > > people who left the neo-advaita satsang movement,
      > > began psychotherapy, and are no longer seeking
      > > what they sought from satsang.
      > >
      > > --Greg
      >
      > Absolutely. That's because (and I know that you
      > know this) that what they were seeking in satsang,
      > they were never going to get there.
      >
      > Most folks come to spirituality looking for self-
      > improvement, because they are operating under a
      > cloud of self-loathing. By finding a guru and
      > achieving his/her love, they believe they will be
      > able to love themselves. Unfortunately, it doesn't
      > always work this way. In fact, it rarely does.
      > A quick survey of any bigtime guru's community
      > will prove this. There is a higher concentration
      > of emotionally fucked-up people there than in
      > almost any other gathering of individuals.
      >
      > Getting God and seeking the Self are good things,
      > but this is not the same as finding inner clarity,
      > which requires a rigorous and brutally honest self-
      > examination. There are very few gurus who can truly
      > help you with that. A good therapist can, and will,
      > if you are lucky enough to find one.
      >
      > --jody.
    • jodyrrr
      ... Hey Jeff. [snip] ... Perhaps. However, I d contend that s a new development. IOW, that wasn t part of the original specification. Meditation did not
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 30, 2004
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
        <jeff@m...> wrote:
        > Hi Jody -

        Hey Jeff.

        [snip]

        > Certainly, psychology offers a
        > proven model for dealing with
        > life's perceived ups and downs.
        > And so does meditation.

        Perhaps. However, I'd contend that's
        a new development. IOW, that wasn't
        part of the original specification.
        Meditation did not develop as a self-
        help technique. That came in the early
        20th century.

        Making meditation a replacement for
        psychotherapy may extend its marketability,
        but it's not an approach that all meditation
        teachers would recommend.


        [snip]

        > Much psychotherapy is focused on
        > reassessment of life experiences;

        Not exactly. Psychotherapy is about
        relieving emotional tension. One way
        to accomplish this is by way of life
        assessement. The reassessment comes
        after, when the emotional polarity
        has been somewhat neutralized.

        > kind of, "If I only knew then,
        > what I know now". For example,
        > when one looks back at an event
        > that had a powerful impact, at
        > an earlier point in life and
        > reassesses their reaction from
        > a more mature and insightful
        > point of view, it is thought
        > that they can find emotional
        > release from that earlier impact,
        > realize that their reaction was
        > immature and even a misinterpretation,
        > and thereby effect an emotional
        > healing.

        That's not my impression of psycho-
        therapy at all. It's reliving past
        events to unlock the emotional potential
        that is stored there. That happens
        completely outside of any subjective
        evaluations as to what was correct
        or incorrect about the reaction at
        the time.

        This isn't to say that looking back
        doesn't reveal the mistakes we made,
        but a good psychotherapist isn't going
        to view them as such, nor recommmend that
        they be viewed as mistakes by their clients.

        > Unfortunately, what so often
        > happens in therapy; such as in
        > support groups and the constellation
        > model, is that the revisiting
        > and stirring of old issues effects
        > something very much like kicking
        > old horseshit. The stink returns
        > and the earlier emotional impact,
        > rather than being lessened,
        > is exacerbated.

        That's not the fault of psychotherapy,
        just a crappy therapist.

        > Nice theory, catharsis,
        > but in many (if not most) cases
        > there is no release, only a
        > revisiting of a bad dream, over
        > and over and over...for years.

        That statement seemingly contradicts
        my entire life.

        > The "patient" never finds release
        > and comes to be ensnared in the
        > support group's childish
        > sentimentality - and all the
        > personal attention it brings.
        > At this point, the one who comes
        > for therapy has discovered a
        > way to become the focus of
        > attention, the recipient of
        > endless hugs and tears...and
        > this is their pay off. No way
        > will they let go of the emotional
        > impact, because each time they
        > rerun the movie, they get all
        > kinds of sympathy and attention.

        Again, bad therapist. No cookie.

        [snip]

        > Nice theory, meditation. The idea
        > that entering a silence of the mind
        > will trigger a "response" from God,
        > from our higher Self, is one that
        > has captured the imagination since...

        That's your theory of meditation, Jeff.
        Mine is this: mind is entrained by the
        repetition of mantra, or silence, or
        whatever. Mental discipline follows,
        and mind content becomes less cluttered.

        That's the ideal situation. In many folks,
        dark stuff gets stirred up. It has to for
        progress to occur. A [good] therapist can
        be very helpful if this occurs, and it does
        occur. It did in me, and in a number of
        others I've known in my life.

        IOW, a good, effective meditation practice
        isn't always peaches and creme. In fact, if
        you don't run into a few shadows, it's not
        doing much of anything for you with regards
        to personal transformation, IMO.

        [snip]

        > Meditators and therapy clients
        > meet each other going the other
        > way everyday.
        >
        >
        > Papajeff

        And some find that by walking in both
        directions, they end up just where they wanted
        to be more quickly and with more clarity than
        if they'd just gone one way or the other.

        --jody
      • Jeff Belyea
        Thanks, Jody. It seems that meditation, yoga, visualization, guided imagery, relaxation techniques and even contemporary hypnotherapy - acknowledged in 1957 by
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 31, 2004
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          Thanks, Jody. It seems that
          meditation, yoga, visualization,
          guided imagery, relaxation
          techniques and even contemporary
          hypnotherapy - acknowledged in
          1957 by the medical establishment
          (sorry for the hold-over hippie
          vocabulary) are being blended
          more and more into "mainstream"
          therapies and overall healthcare,
          education, business and sport.

          Billions are being spent on
          these "alternative or complementary"
          approaches to well-being. And
          sometimes, they go more
          efficiently and wholistically
          to the "heart" of the matter.

          Agreed that a combination
          of good counsel and meditation
          can be the best route for some.

          However...

          The spiritual aspect of meditation
          need not get lost in its relatively
          new role in the self-help (Self-help)
          arena. Even here, it can be
          breakthrough-useful as an
          "applied metaphysics".

          God most probably doesn't
          need man's psychotherapy. (ü)

          Best,

          Jeff
        • jodyrrr
          ... wrote: [snip] ... Only when He manifests as us men (and women.) ... --jody.
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 31, 2004
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
            <jeff@m...> wrote:

            [snip]

            > The spiritual aspect of meditation
            > need not get lost in its relatively
            > new role in the self-help (Self-help)
            > arena. Even here, it can be
            > breakthrough-useful as an
            > "applied metaphysics".
            >
            > God most probably doesn't
            > need man's psychotherapy. (ü)

            Only when He manifests as us men (and women.)

            > Best,
            >
            > Jeff

            --jody.
          • Jeff Belyea
            ... Belyea ... Sure, even though we are made manifest in the image of God, what is encountered (or possibly wired into us) when manifested in this physical,
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 31, 2004
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              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
              <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff
              Belyea"
              > <jeff@m...> wrote:
              >
              > [snip]
              >
              > > The spiritual aspect of meditation
              > > need not get lost in its relatively
              > > new role in the self-help (Self-help)
              > > arena. Even here, it can be
              > > breakthrough-useful as an
              > > "applied metaphysics".
              > >
              > > God most probably doesn't
              > > need man's psychotherapy. (ü)
              >
              > Only when He manifests as us men (and women.)
              >
              > > Best,
              > >
              > > Jeff
              >
              > --jody.

              Sure, even though we are
              made manifest in the image of God,
              what is encountered (or possibly
              wired into us) when manifested
              in this physical, rational form,
              is the genesis of the feeling of
              separation - what is called maya
              or illusion in some traditions; and
              the feeling that we are (our identity is)
              the manifest, rather than the spirit,
              a spark of God's own fire.

              Forgetting that we are within God,
              or being coerced out of knowing this
              (socialization - being force-fed from
              the tree of duality) is what prepares
              the ground for dark disturbing doubts -
              not only about religion or sprituality, but
              about who we are at our core.

              Meditation, at its loftiest, is one
              vehicle for dispelling the notion
              that we are separate from God.

              In meditation, either formal or
              the meditative state that a
              mountain range or a sunrise
              can provoke, we can potentially
              discover that the answer to "Who Am I"
              is not this manifest flesh and blood
              container, but rather the Self that
              is the unmanifest spirit, a play
              of consciousness, eternal,
              within God, inseparable from God.

              Enjoying the day,

              Jeff
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