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Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: my wrong daily actions

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  • Greg Goode
    ... ===Let me second this! I m very glad to hear favorable recommendations about psychotherapy, since it is fashionable in some recent spiritual quarters to
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 30, 2004
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      At 06:50 PM 8/30/2004 +0000, jodyrrr wrote:

      >Hey Jack.
      >
      >Have you thought about trying psychotherapy?
      >I truly believe that *everyone* would benefit
      >from the counsel of a good therapist, regardless
      >of whether they may be considered a victim of
      >a psychopathology.
      >
      >The trick is finding a good one, but if and when
      >you do, in concert with your meditation, you may
      >find the boost you need to get through the rough
      >patches we all encounter in our lives (often
      >closely related to those rough patches we've
      >already been through.)


      ===Let me second this! I'm very glad to hear
      favorable recommendations about psychotherapy,
      since it is fashionable in some recent spiritual
      quarters to claim that psychotherapy will impede
      spiritual progress. Not true! I know several
      people who left the neo-advaita satsang movement,
      began psychotherapy, and are no longer seeking
      what they sought from satsang.

      --Greg
    • jodyrrr
      ... Absolutely. That s because (and I know that you know this) that what they were seeking in satsang, they were never going to get there. Most folks come to
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 30, 2004
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Greg Goode
        <goode@d...> wrote:
        > At 06:50 PM 8/30/2004 +0000, jodyrrr wrote:
        >
        > >Hey Jack.
        > >
        > >Have you thought about trying psychotherapy?
        > >I truly believe that *everyone* would benefit
        > >from the counsel of a good therapist, regardless
        > >of whether they may be considered a victim of
        > >a psychopathology.
        > >
        > >The trick is finding a good one, but if and when
        > >you do, in concert with your meditation, you may
        > >find the boost you need to get through the rough
        > >patches we all encounter in our lives (often
        > >closely related to those rough patches we've
        > >already been through.)
        >
        >
        > ===Let me second this! I'm very glad to hear
        > favorable recommendations about psychotherapy,
        > since it is fashionable in some recent spiritual
        > quarters to claim that psychotherapy will impede
        > spiritual progress. Not true! I know several
        > people who left the neo-advaita satsang movement,
        > began psychotherapy, and are no longer seeking
        > what they sought from satsang.
        >
        > --Greg

        Absolutely. That's because (and I know that you
        know this) that what they were seeking in satsang,
        they were never going to get there.

        Most folks come to spirituality looking for self-
        improvement, because they are operating under a
        cloud of self-loathing. By finding a guru and
        achieving his/her love, they believe they will be
        able to love themselves. Unfortunately, it doesn't
        always work this way. In fact, it rarely does.
        A quick survey of any bigtime guru's community
        will prove this. There is a higher concentration
        of emotionally fucked-up people there than in
        almost any other gathering of individuals.

        Getting God and seeking the Self are good things,
        but this is not the same as finding inner clarity,
        which requires a rigorous and brutally honest self-
        examination. There are very few gurus who can truly
        help you with that. A good therapist can, and will,
        if you are lucky enough to find one.

        --jody.
      • Jeff Belyea
        Hi Jody - This is interesting to consider - the difference between therapy and meditation. Our personal crossfire positions are clear (at least to us). So no
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 30, 2004
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          Hi Jody -

          This is interesting to consider -
          the difference between therapy and
          meditation. Our personal crossfire
          positions are clear (at least to us).
          So no rerun, but in this
          time of political debate - equal
          time (words, bites, bytes):

          Certainly, psychology offers a
          proven model for dealing with
          life's perceived ups and downs.
          And so does meditation. They
          just come at it from different
          angles (some inner, some outer).
          Transformational psychology
          blends the goal of psychotherapy
          and the "supreme" goal of meditation.

          Without a sound psychological
          worldview, meditation may have
          little value, so I agree that
          adjunct therapy may be wise, but
          it depends on what the "seeker"
          is seeking in meditation, and
          of course, what issues are
          disrupting peace of mind.

          Here's where therapy takes
          return fire from your wild meditation
          buckshots:

          Much psychotherapy is focused on
          reassessment of life experiences;
          kind of, "If I only knew then,
          what I know now". For example,
          when one looks back at an event
          that had a powerful impact, at
          an earlier point in life and
          reassesses their reaction from
          a more mature and insightful
          point of view, it is thought
          that they can find emotional
          release from that earlier impact,
          realize that their reaction was
          immature and even a misinterpretation,
          and thereby effect an emotional
          healing.

          Unfortunately, what so often
          happens in therapy; such as in
          support groups and the constellation
          model, is that the revisiting
          and stirring of old issues effects
          something very much like kicking
          old horseshit. The stink returns
          and the earlier emotional impact,
          rather than being lessened,
          is exacerbated.

          Nice theory, catharsis,
          but in many (if not most) cases
          there is no release, only a
          revisiting of a bad dream, over
          and over and over...for years.
          The "patient" never finds release
          and comes to be ensnared in the
          support group's childish
          sentimentality - and all the
          personal attention it brings.
          At this point, the one who comes
          for therapy has discovered a
          way to become the focus of
          attention, the recipient of
          endless hugs and tears...and
          this is their pay off. No way
          will they let go of the emotional
          impact, because each time they
          rerun the movie, they get all
          kinds of sympathy and attention.

          Of course, both meditation and
          therapy are infused with "teachers"
          who harbor "superstitious" imaginings
          and feed on others to support
          their own egoic need to feel superior
          or even "supernatural". They each
          sell their own brand of horseshit
          to some unsuspecting people
          who come for guidance/therapy...and the
          results are often disappointment and
          emotional disaster.

          This isn't universal, and certainly
          groups like AA and other support
          structures have helped many people,
          and probably saved many lives, and
          many enlightened therapists bring
          an intentional "applied metaphysics"
          to therapy. And spiritual communities
          typically hum with peace of mind
          and goodwill. (Unless someone
          is stuck in the late 60s and early
          70s).

          Meditation is a different matter:

          Nice theory, meditation. The idea
          that entering a silence of the mind
          will trigger a "response" from God,
          from our higher Self, is one that
          has captured the imagination since...
          most probably before recorded
          history. Certainly history records
          testimony of meditation's efficacy
          in dealing with a broad range of
          human "ills". The mystic path
          is known to virtually all religions
          and spiritual traditions.

          Satsang points to this - it is not
          where IT is found, but is can
          provide a "lamp unto our feet"
          that may guide us to a realization
          of our true home - within God.

          And on a less lofty plane, there
          are a kazillion reports of today's
          meditators reporting improved
          stress management and ability
          to relax, more non-judgmental
          acceptance of other personality
          types, improved relationships
          and more positive self-talk
          a renewed enthusiasm for life/career
          goals ((not to mention the host of
          physiological benefits of
          meditation) ...to name a few.

          To return to a spiritual context...

          Meditation potentially holds a key
          to the entrance to another realm.
          This is not therapy, in the classic
          sense. Entrance into this realm,
          beyond space and time, into the
          eternal holy moment, requires
          "death" of all previously held
          concepts, a beginner's mind, an
          emptying, a total surrender...
          a willingness to die to the former
          self, and the opportunity to
          meet the Self - an entirely new
          (or possibly newly remembered)
          Self. The needy neurotic who
          comes to the master meditation
          teacher as a sincere student
          may receive the unique healing,
          another sort of resolution, an
          entirely new perspective on what
          seemed to be difficult circumstances,
          a startling new "wisdom", a
          gnosis that cures neurosis.

          To find the right key that
          unlocks the door to peace of mind
          and perfect resolution of past
          problems and pain of remorse,
          is to be "reborn" a Self of pure
          existential courage, to know
          perfect peace of mind and
          a joy unspeakable...

          At this level of meditation
          theistic language is often
          used...God is remembered.
          Our intimate "place" within
          God is remembered.

          Meditation may opened the door to
          this "heavenly, eternal" realm,
          but the decision to enter into the
          "enlightenment" or "awakening"
          or "holy of holies" is left to
          the "seeker". The teacher points the
          way, and offers guidance along
          the path, drawing upon his or her
          own direct personal experience of
          having entered the place beyond
          time and space, where a new
          being replaced the old one.

          As Jesus, said, "We (teachers)
          know of what we speak."

          This is the role of the true, ardent
          and sometimes over-enthusiastic
          Boddhisattva. They wait, either on
          this earthly plane, or on what might be
          called the astral plane (beyond
          space and time - as in where
          Jesus resides for those who
          have "met" him) at the entrance
          to this "changing room", this
          place of removal of darkness
          (gu-ru means "darkness remover")
          as in a darkened consciousness,
          as servants to those sentient
          beings who have come to the
          point of earnest aspiration.

          This shift in perception, known
          to one who has emerged from God's
          changing room, is not gained as
          a result of a new rational insight
          or a more mature reaction to
          past life experiences. This
          change is, in a manner of speaking,
          pure grace - God's work. Grace
          gives new life, a new being, a new
          knowing (gnosis - the gnosis
          that cures neurosis) that changes
          everything - while changing
          nothing. No words suffice.
          The shift is only known
          experientially.

          Meditators and therapy clients
          meet each other going the other
          way everyday.


          Papajeff






          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
          <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Greg
          Goode
          > <goode@d...> wrote:
          > > At 06:50 PM 8/30/2004 +0000, jodyrrr wrote:
          > >
          > > >Hey Jack.
          > > >
          > > >Have you thought about trying psychotherapy?
          > > >I truly believe that *everyone* would benefit
          > > >from the counsel of a good therapist, regardless
          > > >of whether they may be considered a victim of
          > > >a psychopathology.
          > > >
          > > >The trick is finding a good one, but if and when
          > > >you do, in concert with your meditation, you may
          > > >find the boost you need to get through the rough
          > > >patches we all encounter in our lives (often
          > > >closely related to those rough patches we've
          > > >already been through.)
          > >
          > >
          > > ===Let me second this! I'm very glad to hear
          > > favorable recommendations about psychotherapy,
          > > since it is fashionable in some recent spiritual
          > > quarters to claim that psychotherapy will impede
          > > spiritual progress. Not true! I know several
          > > people who left the neo-advaita satsang movement,
          > > began psychotherapy, and are no longer seeking
          > > what they sought from satsang.
          > >
          > > --Greg
          >
          > Absolutely. That's because (and I know that you
          > know this) that what they were seeking in satsang,
          > they were never going to get there.
          >
          > Most folks come to spirituality looking for self-
          > improvement, because they are operating under a
          > cloud of self-loathing. By finding a guru and
          > achieving his/her love, they believe they will be
          > able to love themselves. Unfortunately, it doesn't
          > always work this way. In fact, it rarely does.
          > A quick survey of any bigtime guru's community
          > will prove this. There is a higher concentration
          > of emotionally fucked-up people there than in
          > almost any other gathering of individuals.
          >
          > Getting God and seeking the Self are good things,
          > but this is not the same as finding inner clarity,
          > which requires a rigorous and brutally honest self-
          > examination. There are very few gurus who can truly
          > help you with that. A good therapist can, and will,
          > if you are lucky enough to find one.
          >
          > --jody.
        • jodyrrr
          ... Hey Jeff. [snip] ... Perhaps. However, I d contend that s a new development. IOW, that wasn t part of the original specification. Meditation did not
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 30, 2004
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
            <jeff@m...> wrote:
            > Hi Jody -

            Hey Jeff.

            [snip]

            > Certainly, psychology offers a
            > proven model for dealing with
            > life's perceived ups and downs.
            > And so does meditation.

            Perhaps. However, I'd contend that's
            a new development. IOW, that wasn't
            part of the original specification.
            Meditation did not develop as a self-
            help technique. That came in the early
            20th century.

            Making meditation a replacement for
            psychotherapy may extend its marketability,
            but it's not an approach that all meditation
            teachers would recommend.


            [snip]

            > Much psychotherapy is focused on
            > reassessment of life experiences;

            Not exactly. Psychotherapy is about
            relieving emotional tension. One way
            to accomplish this is by way of life
            assessement. The reassessment comes
            after, when the emotional polarity
            has been somewhat neutralized.

            > kind of, "If I only knew then,
            > what I know now". For example,
            > when one looks back at an event
            > that had a powerful impact, at
            > an earlier point in life and
            > reassesses their reaction from
            > a more mature and insightful
            > point of view, it is thought
            > that they can find emotional
            > release from that earlier impact,
            > realize that their reaction was
            > immature and even a misinterpretation,
            > and thereby effect an emotional
            > healing.

            That's not my impression of psycho-
            therapy at all. It's reliving past
            events to unlock the emotional potential
            that is stored there. That happens
            completely outside of any subjective
            evaluations as to what was correct
            or incorrect about the reaction at
            the time.

            This isn't to say that looking back
            doesn't reveal the mistakes we made,
            but a good psychotherapist isn't going
            to view them as such, nor recommmend that
            they be viewed as mistakes by their clients.

            > Unfortunately, what so often
            > happens in therapy; such as in
            > support groups and the constellation
            > model, is that the revisiting
            > and stirring of old issues effects
            > something very much like kicking
            > old horseshit. The stink returns
            > and the earlier emotional impact,
            > rather than being lessened,
            > is exacerbated.

            That's not the fault of psychotherapy,
            just a crappy therapist.

            > Nice theory, catharsis,
            > but in many (if not most) cases
            > there is no release, only a
            > revisiting of a bad dream, over
            > and over and over...for years.

            That statement seemingly contradicts
            my entire life.

            > The "patient" never finds release
            > and comes to be ensnared in the
            > support group's childish
            > sentimentality - and all the
            > personal attention it brings.
            > At this point, the one who comes
            > for therapy has discovered a
            > way to become the focus of
            > attention, the recipient of
            > endless hugs and tears...and
            > this is their pay off. No way
            > will they let go of the emotional
            > impact, because each time they
            > rerun the movie, they get all
            > kinds of sympathy and attention.

            Again, bad therapist. No cookie.

            [snip]

            > Nice theory, meditation. The idea
            > that entering a silence of the mind
            > will trigger a "response" from God,
            > from our higher Self, is one that
            > has captured the imagination since...

            That's your theory of meditation, Jeff.
            Mine is this: mind is entrained by the
            repetition of mantra, or silence, or
            whatever. Mental discipline follows,
            and mind content becomes less cluttered.

            That's the ideal situation. In many folks,
            dark stuff gets stirred up. It has to for
            progress to occur. A [good] therapist can
            be very helpful if this occurs, and it does
            occur. It did in me, and in a number of
            others I've known in my life.

            IOW, a good, effective meditation practice
            isn't always peaches and creme. In fact, if
            you don't run into a few shadows, it's not
            doing much of anything for you with regards
            to personal transformation, IMO.

            [snip]

            > Meditators and therapy clients
            > meet each other going the other
            > way everyday.
            >
            >
            > Papajeff

            And some find that by walking in both
            directions, they end up just where they wanted
            to be more quickly and with more clarity than
            if they'd just gone one way or the other.

            --jody
          • Jeff Belyea
            Thanks, Jody. It seems that meditation, yoga, visualization, guided imagery, relaxation techniques and even contemporary hypnotherapy - acknowledged in 1957 by
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 31, 2004
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              Thanks, Jody. It seems that
              meditation, yoga, visualization,
              guided imagery, relaxation
              techniques and even contemporary
              hypnotherapy - acknowledged in
              1957 by the medical establishment
              (sorry for the hold-over hippie
              vocabulary) are being blended
              more and more into "mainstream"
              therapies and overall healthcare,
              education, business and sport.

              Billions are being spent on
              these "alternative or complementary"
              approaches to well-being. And
              sometimes, they go more
              efficiently and wholistically
              to the "heart" of the matter.

              Agreed that a combination
              of good counsel and meditation
              can be the best route for some.

              However...

              The spiritual aspect of meditation
              need not get lost in its relatively
              new role in the self-help (Self-help)
              arena. Even here, it can be
              breakthrough-useful as an
              "applied metaphysics".

              God most probably doesn't
              need man's psychotherapy. (ü)

              Best,

              Jeff
            • jodyrrr
              ... wrote: [snip] ... Only when He manifests as us men (and women.) ... --jody.
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 31, 2004
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                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
                <jeff@m...> wrote:

                [snip]

                > The spiritual aspect of meditation
                > need not get lost in its relatively
                > new role in the self-help (Self-help)
                > arena. Even here, it can be
                > breakthrough-useful as an
                > "applied metaphysics".
                >
                > God most probably doesn't
                > need man's psychotherapy. (ü)

                Only when He manifests as us men (and women.)

                > Best,
                >
                > Jeff

                --jody.
              • Jeff Belyea
                ... Belyea ... Sure, even though we are made manifest in the image of God, what is encountered (or possibly wired into us) when manifested in this physical,
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 31, 2004
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                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                  <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                  > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff
                  Belyea"
                  > <jeff@m...> wrote:
                  >
                  > [snip]
                  >
                  > > The spiritual aspect of meditation
                  > > need not get lost in its relatively
                  > > new role in the self-help (Self-help)
                  > > arena. Even here, it can be
                  > > breakthrough-useful as an
                  > > "applied metaphysics".
                  > >
                  > > God most probably doesn't
                  > > need man's psychotherapy. (ü)
                  >
                  > Only when He manifests as us men (and women.)
                  >
                  > > Best,
                  > >
                  > > Jeff
                  >
                  > --jody.

                  Sure, even though we are
                  made manifest in the image of God,
                  what is encountered (or possibly
                  wired into us) when manifested
                  in this physical, rational form,
                  is the genesis of the feeling of
                  separation - what is called maya
                  or illusion in some traditions; and
                  the feeling that we are (our identity is)
                  the manifest, rather than the spirit,
                  a spark of God's own fire.

                  Forgetting that we are within God,
                  or being coerced out of knowing this
                  (socialization - being force-fed from
                  the tree of duality) is what prepares
                  the ground for dark disturbing doubts -
                  not only about religion or sprituality, but
                  about who we are at our core.

                  Meditation, at its loftiest, is one
                  vehicle for dispelling the notion
                  that we are separate from God.

                  In meditation, either formal or
                  the meditative state that a
                  mountain range or a sunrise
                  can provoke, we can potentially
                  discover that the answer to "Who Am I"
                  is not this manifest flesh and blood
                  container, but rather the Self that
                  is the unmanifest spirit, a play
                  of consciousness, eternal,
                  within God, inseparable from God.

                  Enjoying the day,

                  Jeff
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