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Re: About the so-called "dangers" of pranayama

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  • Nina
    ... same ... class. ... perhaps ... These ... reactions ... lack ... senior ... They are senior teachers because they have a certain level of expertise,
    Message 1 of 11 , Jun 27, 2004
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      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
      <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
      > <murrkis@y...> wrote:
      > > > Dear Nina,
      > > > When you say "we consistantly had at least 1 person(not the
      same
      > > > person) with an emotional reaction to the exercises in each
      class."
      > > > are you suggesting a "negative" emotional reaction? If so,
      perhaps
      > > > there may be a question about the skill level of the teacher.
      > >
      > > There is no need to question the skill level of the teacher.
      These
      > > folks were senior level teachers, able to respond to the
      reactions
      > > and help their students into right practice.
      >
      > Oh well, since they are "senior" teachers, I guess there was no
      lack
      > of expertise, eh? But then again, maybe if they consistantly had
      > negative reactions every class, there should have been "Very
      senior"
      > teachers giving the class!? (he said facetiously:-)

      They are senior teachers because they have a certain
      level of expertise, which encompasses the ability to teach
      various forms of pranayama to teacher trainees with a
      recognizable degree of skill.

      Reactions typically do not fall into binary slots, as in:
      good reaction/bad reaction, a reaction/no reaction. It can
      pretty much be assumed there will be a 'reaction' to any
      input into a system as responsive as a human physiology,
      *whether or not the human physiology consciously recognizes
      it*. These reactions will be qualitative, moreso than
      quantitative. The qualitative nature of these reactions
      are what allow adjustments to be made. Usually, it takes
      a bit of tinkering if you are 'going it alone' in new
      territory... expertise is usually recognized by the
      ability to 'hit the mark' with the adjustments.

      Keep in mind, that whether or not a student reports a
      reaction has as much to do with the environmental
      constraints/supports to this reportage as with the
      fact of a reaction. If a student doesn't share that
      she had a reaction, does this mean she had no reaction?

      > > While it is possible to view the reactions as
      > > 'negative' (weeping, backache, breathlessness, muscle cramps)
      > > or 'positive' (buoyancy, clarity, relaxation, easeful tidal
      > > expansion), it is also possible to view these reactions as
      > > guideposts to fine-tuning a practice.
      > >
      > > > We always had many students report wonderful emotional,
      physical,
      > > mental,
      > > > and spiritual results from what we shared. As a matter of
      fact, the
      > > > 1-4-2 technique is also referred to as the "How to get high
      without
      > > > drugs" technique, and afforded many with a higher high, greater
      > > > insights and inner sights than any drug had ever given them.
      There
      > > > also was a possible to label as problematical side effect to
      this.
      > > The
      > > > technique works so well that some would become bliss-
      seekers/ecstacy
      > > > junkies of a sort. But even if this problem is a problem worth
      > > > mentioning, I know of no evidence anywhere that practicing
      breath
      > > > retention will lead to MS, or any other such consequence.
      > >
      > > I was not claiming that breath retention causes MS, and neither
      > > was Eric Small. I was saying that he was having
      > > reactions to using a breath technique that induced heat in his
      > > body, a body which was undiagnosed with MS and yet had been
      > > displaying the unrecognized symptoms of MS.
      > >
      > > > And I see no
      > > > need or benefit to using this kind of wild claim to discourage
      the
      > > > potential good results experienced by so many for so long of
      > > > practicing pranayama.
      > >
      > > These claims are no more wild than a claim that other than
      > > one woman (whose reaction could be dismissed because she
      > > was asthmatic and couldn't bear to follow her breath in any
      > > form), there have been no reactions in 4000 students.
      >
      > Uh, you're saying that our 4000 students didn't have reactions is a
      > wild claim is not accurate. As I said, they reported very pleasant,
      > beneficial and positive reactions. And that's not so wild, it's
      > what is supposed to happen.

      I am saying that what I have to offer by the way
      of anecdote is no more wild than what you have shared. The
      only possible difference being that what I have observed is
      a greater array of reactions to more advanced forms (or, if you
      prefer, more interventive forms) of pranayama practice.
      This difference in degree of intervention in respiration
      may account for the differences in outcome, btw. Nonetheless,
      both perspectives are anecdotal, and therefore, pretty even
      in reliability as far as evidence goes.

      > And BTW, excuse the possible lack of humility,
      > but these classes were all in public community sponsered adult
      > education programs that were evaluated at the end of each semester
      > bythe students themselves, as well as by the various schools and
      > colleges offering the classes, and our ratings of excellence were
      as
      > good as or better than any of the other hundreds of courses
      offered by
      > the various continuing education programs.
      >
      > > I am not arguing for or against. I am arguing for
      > > refinement.
      > >
      > > > BTW, I question the statement that implies that meditators
      are "so
      > > > busy convincing themselves that physical discomfort was all in
      their
      > > > imagination". We have many oncologists, neurologists,
      cardiologists,
      > > > psychiatrists, GP's, etc attending and sending their patients
      to our
      > > > classes, so as to be better able to deal with their physical
      > > > discomforts. There is no 'bodily dis-ease is all in the mind'
      > > attitude
      > > > prevelant in any of our, or in most meditation classes I know
      of
      > >
      > >
      > > There was in your posts.
      >
      > If you read apples when we intended to offer oranges, so be it.

      If you intended oranges and wrote apples,
      should I accept responsibility for miscommunication?

      By the way, who is "we"?

      > > > (such as those given by the Integral Yoga org or the
      > > > Sivananda ashrams). In
      > > > any event, I do value pranayama greatly, as I do visualization,
      > > > mantra, self-enquiry, Raja yoga, and all the other things that
      bring
      > > > peace to so many, and hope that what we do here on this group
      is
      > > > helping make these concepts and methods available to those who
      seek
      > > > this knowledge.
      > >
      > > Good.
      > >
      > > Nina
      >
      > Yes, the aim of selflessly and freely sharing things of
      > consciousness evolving potential is "Good", and I know
      > that's what you also intend.

      Sure, as long as it is fitting.

      Nina
    • medit8ionsociety
      ... snip ... snip ... Nina, FYI, this was one of the much loved and recently departed Bob Eck s favorite sayings, IE: Hey, we re talking apples here, and
      Message 2 of 11 , Jun 27, 2004
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
        <murrkis@y...> wrote:
        >
        snip
        Bob wrote:
        > > > > BTW, I question the statement that implies that meditators
        > are "so
        > > > > busy convincing themselves that physical discomfort was all in
        > their
        > > > > imagination". We have many oncologists, neurologists,
        > cardiologists,
        > > > > psychiatrists, GP's, etc attending and sending their patients
        > to our
        > > > > classes, so as to be better able to deal with their physical
        > > > > discomforts. There is no 'bodily dis-ease is all in the mind'
        > > > attitude
        > > > > prevelant in any of our, or in most meditation classes I know
        > of
        > > >
        Nina:
        > > > There was in your posts.
        Bob:
        > > If you read apples when we intended to offer oranges, so be it.
        Nina:
        > If you intended oranges and wrote apples,
        > should I accept responsibility for miscommunication?
        >
        > By the way, who is "we"?
        >
        snip
        > > >
        > > > Nina

        Nina, FYI, this was one of the much loved and recently departed Bob
        Eck's favorite sayings, IE:
        "Hey, we're talking apples here, and you're hearing oranges!" Maybe
        this saying is just a Philly cliche, but unfortunatly, your
        defensiveness is universal.
        Peace and blessings,
        Bob
      • Nina
        ... LOL, you say defensive, I say dismissive, you say facetious, I say capricious, defensive, dismissive, facetious, capricious, let s call the whole thing
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 27, 2004
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          > Nina, FYI, this was one of the much loved and recently departed Bob
          > Eck's favorite sayings, IE:
          > "Hey, we're talking apples here, and you're hearing oranges!" Maybe
          > this saying is just a Philly cliche, but unfortunatly, your
          > defensiveness is universal.
          > Peace and blessings,
          > Bob

          LOL, you say defensive, I say dismissive,
          you say facetious, I say capricious,
          defensive, dismissive,
          facetious, capricious,
          let's call the whole thing off!

          Or something like that. Maybe they were saying tomatoes
          instead of apples or oranges. It's still all fruit to me.

          well-versed in the art of name-calling,
          Nina
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