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Re: About the so-called "dangers" of pranayama

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  • medit8ionsociety
    ... One inhales for 1 unit of time, holds the breath for 4 units and exhales for 2. This is continued until the pattern is regular, then it is doubled to
    Message 1 of 11 , Jun 26, 2004
      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
      <murrkis@y...> wrote:
      > Bob,
      >
      > What is 1-4-2?

      One inhales for 1 unit of time, holds the breath for 4 units and
      exhales for 2. This is continued until the pattern is regular, then it
      is doubled to inhale for 2 units of time, hold for 8 and exhale for 4.
      This goes on until a maximum of 16 inhalation, 64 held, and 32
      exhaled. Often it can take before the practicioner moves on to the
      first doubling. This has been one of the most basic pranayama
      techniques for centuries, and is very well known by millions.
      >
      > I suspect the reason you have seen only one reaction
      > across 4000 students is that the pranayama practiced
      > is minimally interventive. Alternate nostril breathing,
      > while interventive, is calming to the nervous system.
      > Begin working with vilomas and breath retentions and
      > the dynamics change.
      >
      > Reminds me of Eric Small telling us how he had been
      > practicing breath retention (heat building) during the
      > time just prior to being diagnosed with multiple sclerosis
      > (exacerbated by heat).
      >
      > Reminds me of how, during the pranayama classes required
      > for my training, we consistantly had at least 1 person
      > (not the same person) with an emotional reaction to the
      > exercises in each class. Some people had physical reactions,
      > as well, though those were more difficult to detect in
      > one's neighbor. However, physical and emotional reactions
      > do not necessarily occur discretely... the two were often
      > interconnected... and this is a piece of information that
      > could potentially be of a lot of use for meditators (if
      > they weren't so busy convincing themselves that physical
      > discomfort was all in their imagination.)
      >
      > The breath is the bridge between the conscious and
      > unconscious. Meditators are often well-versed in what
      > this means for the mind, but it may also be noted that
      > the body has corresponding conscious and unconscious
      > controls, which may be influenced by pranayama beyond
      > the most basic 'following the breath'. This is the root
      > of the warnings, Bob, though some teachers may use
      > those warnings to keep their classes full.
      >
      > Nina
      >
      Dear Nina,
      When you say "we consistantly had at least 1 person(not the same
      person) with an emotional reaction to the exercises in each class."
      are you suggesting a "negative" emotional reaction? If so, perhaps
      there may be a question about the skill level of the teacher. We
      always had many students report wonderful emotional, physical, mental,
      and spiritual results from what we shared. As a matter of fact, the
      1-4-2 technique is also referred to as the "How to get high without
      drugs" technique, and afforded many with a higher high, greater
      insights and inner sights than any drug had ever given them. There
      also was a possible to label as problematical side effect to this. The
      technique works so well that some would become bliss-seekers/ecstacy
      junkies of a sort. But even if this problem is a problem worth
      mentioning, I know of no evidence anywhere that practicing breath
      retention will lead to MS, or any other such consequence. And I see no
      need or benefit to using this kind of wild claim to discourage the
      potential good results experienced by so many for so long of
      practicing pranayama.
      BTW, I question the statement that implies that meditators are "so
      busy convincing themselves that physical discomfort was all in their
      imagination". We have many oncologists, neurologists, cardiologists,
      psychiatrists, GP's, etc attending and sending their patients to our
      classes, so as to be better able to deal with their physical
      discomforts. There is no 'bodily dis-ease is all in the mind' attitude
      prevelant in any of our, or in most meditation classes I know of (such
      as those given by the Integral Yoga org or the Sivananda ashrams). In
      any event, I do value pranayama greatly, as I do visualization,
      mantra, self-enquiry, Raja yoga, and all the other things that bring
      peace to so many, and hope that what we do here on this group is
      helping make these concepts and methods available to those who seek
      this knowledge.

      Peace and blesings,
      Bob
      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
      > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
      > > <murrkis@y...> wrote:
      > > > Bob,
      > > >
      > > > What form of pranayama was practiced?
      > > >
      > > > Nina
      > >
      > > We shared several techniques such as alternate nostril breathing,
      > > Soham, 1-4-2, 108-An Easy, Hard Technique
      > > http://www.meditationsociety.com/week30.html
      > > and a few others. BTW, I love pranayama, and suggest everyone keep
      > > breathing:-)
      > > Peace and blessings,
      > > Bob
    • texasbg2000
      ... it ... 4. ... mental, ... The ... no ... attitude ... (such ... In ... medit8ionsociety ... breathing, ... keep ... I have been around this block for
      Message 2 of 11 , Jun 26, 2004
        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
        <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
        > <murrkis@y...> wrote:
        > > Bob,
        > >
        > > What is 1-4-2?
        >
        > One inhales for 1 unit of time, holds the breath for 4 units and
        > exhales for 2. This is continued until the pattern is regular, then
        it
        > is doubled to inhale for 2 units of time, hold for 8 and exhale for
        4.
        > This goes on until a maximum of 16 inhalation, 64 held, and 32
        > exhaled. Often it can take before the practicioner moves on to the
        > first doubling. This has been one of the most basic pranayama
        > techniques for centuries, and is very well known by millions.
        > >
        > > I suspect the reason you have seen only one reaction
        > > across 4000 students is that the pranayama practiced
        > > is minimally interventive. Alternate nostril breathing,
        > > while interventive, is calming to the nervous system.
        > > Begin working with vilomas and breath retentions and
        > > the dynamics change.
        > >
        > > Reminds me of Eric Small telling us how he had been
        > > practicing breath retention (heat building) during the
        > > time just prior to being diagnosed with multiple sclerosis
        > > (exacerbated by heat).
        > >
        > > Reminds me of how, during the pranayama classes required
        > > for my training, we consistantly had at least 1 person
        > > (not the same person) with an emotional reaction to the
        > > exercises in each class. Some people had physical reactions,
        > > as well, though those were more difficult to detect in
        > > one's neighbor. However, physical and emotional reactions
        > > do not necessarily occur discretely... the two were often
        > > interconnected... and this is a piece of information that
        > > could potentially be of a lot of use for meditators (if
        > > they weren't so busy convincing themselves that physical
        > > discomfort was all in their imagination.)
        > >
        > > The breath is the bridge between the conscious and
        > > unconscious. Meditators are often well-versed in what
        > > this means for the mind, but it may also be noted that
        > > the body has corresponding conscious and unconscious
        > > controls, which may be influenced by pranayama beyond
        > > the most basic 'following the breath'. This is the root
        > > of the warnings, Bob, though some teachers may use
        > > those warnings to keep their classes full.
        > >
        > > Nina
        > >
        > Dear Nina,
        > When you say "we consistantly had at least 1 person(not the same
        > person) with an emotional reaction to the exercises in each class."
        > are you suggesting a "negative" emotional reaction? If so, perhaps
        > there may be a question about the skill level of the teacher. We
        > always had many students report wonderful emotional, physical,
        mental,
        > and spiritual results from what we shared. As a matter of fact, the
        > 1-4-2 technique is also referred to as the "How to get high without
        > drugs" technique, and afforded many with a higher high, greater
        > insights and inner sights than any drug had ever given them. There
        > also was a possible to label as problematical side effect to this.
        The
        > technique works so well that some would become bliss-seekers/ecstacy
        > junkies of a sort. But even if this problem is a problem worth
        > mentioning, I know of no evidence anywhere that practicing breath
        > retention will lead to MS, or any other such consequence. And I see
        no
        > need or benefit to using this kind of wild claim to discourage the
        > potential good results experienced by so many for so long of
        > practicing pranayama.
        > BTW, I question the statement that implies that meditators are "so
        > busy convincing themselves that physical discomfort was all in their
        > imagination". We have many oncologists, neurologists, cardiologists,
        > psychiatrists, GP's, etc attending and sending their patients to our
        > classes, so as to be better able to deal with their physical
        > discomforts. There is no 'bodily dis-ease is all in the mind'
        attitude
        > prevelant in any of our, or in most meditation classes I know of
        (such
        > as those given by the Integral Yoga org or the Sivananda ashrams).
        In
        > any event, I do value pranayama greatly, as I do visualization,
        > mantra, self-enquiry, Raja yoga, and all the other things that bring
        > peace to so many, and hope that what we do here on this group is
        > helping make these concepts and methods available to those who seek
        > this knowledge.
        >
        > Peace and blesings,
        > Bob
        > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
        medit8ionsociety
        > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
        > > > <murrkis@y...> wrote:
        > > > > Bob,
        > > > >
        > > > > What form of pranayama was practiced?
        > > > >
        > > > > Nina
        > > >
        > > > We shared several techniques such as alternate nostril
        breathing,
        > > > Soham, 1-4-2, 108-An Easy, Hard Technique
        > > > http://www.meditationsociety.com/week30.html
        > > > and a few others. BTW, I love pranayama, and suggest everyone
        keep
        > > > breathing:-)
        > > > Peace and blessings,
        > > > Bob

        I have been around this block for awhile and have heard the
        warnings.
        My memories:
        Ramachraraka gave the technique for retention on the in breath and
        the outbreath in "Raja Yoga" around 1901. Vivekananda slammed him
        for giving a potentially harmful technique to the West.

        I can recall a comment by Sri Ramana that the one pefectly harmless
        way to practice retention of the breath was to do it only on the in
        breath.

        I think the point in these warnings is intended to the overly
        exuberant observer. That is, if one spends all one's time on the
        technique it can be harmful. The 20 minutes a day thing is nowhere
        near enough. An example is myself. I was pretty avid. Breath
        irregularities and sleep apnia began and I slacked off.
        Another example:
        In the biography of Omraam Mikhael Aivanhow by Georg Feuerstein,
        which he was paid to write by the estate of the Eastern European
        Mystic, a telling example of harm is described. He wrote of Omraam's
        immense focus on Ramacharaka's technique, which is about what Bob has
        delineated. He became seriously ill. But he was really into it.
        Doing it all the time. Georg makes it clear he did not approve of
        Ramacharaka' cavalier attitude either.

        Love
        Bobby G.
      • Nina
        ... There is no need to question the skill level of the teacher. These folks were senior level teachers, able to respond to the reactions and help their
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 27, 2004
          > Dear Nina,
          > When you say "we consistantly had at least 1 person(not the same
          > person) with an emotional reaction to the exercises in each class."
          > are you suggesting a "negative" emotional reaction? If so, perhaps
          > there may be a question about the skill level of the teacher.

          There is no need to question the skill level of the teacher. These
          folks were senior level teachers, able to respond to the reactions
          and help their students into right practice.

          While it is possible to view the reactions as
          'negative' (weeping, backache, breathlessness, muscle cramps)
          or 'positive' (buoyancy, clarity, relaxation, easeful tidal
          expansion), it is also possible to view these reactions as
          guideposts to fine-tuning a practice.

          > We always had many students report wonderful emotional, physical,
          mental,
          > and spiritual results from what we shared. As a matter of fact, the
          > 1-4-2 technique is also referred to as the "How to get high without
          > drugs" technique, and afforded many with a higher high, greater
          > insights and inner sights than any drug had ever given them. There
          > also was a possible to label as problematical side effect to this.
          The
          > technique works so well that some would become bliss-seekers/ecstacy
          > junkies of a sort. But even if this problem is a problem worth
          > mentioning, I know of no evidence anywhere that practicing breath
          > retention will lead to MS, or any other such consequence.

          I was not claiming that breath retention causes MS, and neither
          was Eric Small. I was saying that he was having
          reactions to using a breath technique that induced heat in his
          body, a body which was undiagnosed with MS and yet had been
          displaying the unrecognized symptoms of MS.

          > And I see no
          > need or benefit to using this kind of wild claim to discourage the
          > potential good results experienced by so many for so long of
          > practicing pranayama.

          These claims are no more wild than a claim that other than
          one woman (whose reaction could be dismissed because she
          was asthmatic and couldn't bear to follow her breath in any
          form), there have been no reactions in 4000 students.

          I am not arguing for or against. I am arguing for
          refinement.

          > BTW, I question the statement that implies that meditators are "so
          > busy convincing themselves that physical discomfort was all in their
          > imagination". We have many oncologists, neurologists, cardiologists,
          > psychiatrists, GP's, etc attending and sending their patients to our
          > classes, so as to be better able to deal with their physical
          > discomforts. There is no 'bodily dis-ease is all in the mind'
          attitude
          > prevelant in any of our, or in most meditation classes I know of


          There was in your posts.


          > (such as those given by the Integral Yoga org or the
          > Sivananda ashrams). In
          > any event, I do value pranayama greatly, as I do visualization,
          > mantra, self-enquiry, Raja yoga, and all the other things that bring
          > peace to so many, and hope that what we do here on this group is
          > helping make these concepts and methods available to those who seek
          > this knowledge.

          Good.

          Nina
        • medit8ionsociety
          ... Oh well, since they are senior teachers, I guess there was no lack of expertise, eh? But then again, maybe if they consistantly had negative reactions
          Message 4 of 11 , Jun 27, 2004
            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
            <murrkis@y...> wrote:
            > > Dear Nina,
            > > When you say "we consistantly had at least 1 person(not the same
            > > person) with an emotional reaction to the exercises in each class."
            > > are you suggesting a "negative" emotional reaction? If so, perhaps
            > > there may be a question about the skill level of the teacher.
            >
            > There is no need to question the skill level of the teacher. These
            > folks were senior level teachers, able to respond to the reactions
            > and help their students into right practice.

            Oh well, since they are "senior" teachers, I guess there was no lack
            of expertise, eh? But then again, maybe if they consistantly had
            negative reactions every class, there should have been "Very senior"
            teachers giving the class!? (he said facetiously:-)
            >
            > While it is possible to view the reactions as
            > 'negative' (weeping, backache, breathlessness, muscle cramps)
            > or 'positive' (buoyancy, clarity, relaxation, easeful tidal
            > expansion), it is also possible to view these reactions as
            > guideposts to fine-tuning a practice.
            >
            > > We always had many students report wonderful emotional, physical,
            > mental,
            > > and spiritual results from what we shared. As a matter of fact, the
            > > 1-4-2 technique is also referred to as the "How to get high without
            > > drugs" technique, and afforded many with a higher high, greater
            > > insights and inner sights than any drug had ever given them. There
            > > also was a possible to label as problematical side effect to this.
            > The
            > > technique works so well that some would become bliss-seekers/ecstacy
            > > junkies of a sort. But even if this problem is a problem worth
            > > mentioning, I know of no evidence anywhere that practicing breath
            > > retention will lead to MS, or any other such consequence.
            >
            > I was not claiming that breath retention causes MS, and neither
            > was Eric Small. I was saying that he was having
            > reactions to using a breath technique that induced heat in his
            > body, a body which was undiagnosed with MS and yet had been
            > displaying the unrecognized symptoms of MS.
            >
            > > And I see no
            > > need or benefit to using this kind of wild claim to discourage the
            > > potential good results experienced by so many for so long of
            > > practicing pranayama.
            >
            > These claims are no more wild than a claim that other than
            > one woman (whose reaction could be dismissed because she
            > was asthmatic and couldn't bear to follow her breath in any
            > form), there have been no reactions in 4000 students.

            Uh, you're saying that our 4000 students didn't have reactions is a
            wild claim is not accurate. As I said, they reported very pleasant,
            beneficial and positive reactions. And that's not so wild, it's what
            is supposed to happen. And BTW, excuse the possible lack of humility,
            but these classes were all in public community sponsered adult
            education programs that were evaluated at the end of each semester by
            the students themselves, as well as by the various schools and
            colleges offering the classes, and our ratings of excellence were as
            good as or better than any of the other hundreds of courses offered by
            the various continuing education programs.

            > I am not arguing for or against. I am arguing for
            > refinement.
            >
            > > BTW, I question the statement that implies that meditators are "so
            > > busy convincing themselves that physical discomfort was all in their
            > > imagination". We have many oncologists, neurologists, cardiologists,
            > > psychiatrists, GP's, etc attending and sending their patients to our
            > > classes, so as to be better able to deal with their physical
            > > discomforts. There is no 'bodily dis-ease is all in the mind'
            > attitude
            > > prevelant in any of our, or in most meditation classes I know of
            >
            >
            > There was in your posts.

            If you read apples when we intended to offer oranges, so be it.

            >
            > > (such as those given by the Integral Yoga org or the
            > > Sivananda ashrams). In
            > > any event, I do value pranayama greatly, as I do visualization,
            > > mantra, self-enquiry, Raja yoga, and all the other things that bring
            > > peace to so many, and hope that what we do here on this group is
            > > helping make these concepts and methods available to those who seek
            > > this knowledge.
            >
            > Good.
            >
            > Nina

            Yes, the aim of selflessly and freely sharing things of consciousness
            evolving potential is "Good", and I know that's what you also intend.
            Peace and blessings,
            Bob
          • Nina
            ... same ... class. ... perhaps ... These ... reactions ... lack ... senior ... They are senior teachers because they have a certain level of expertise,
            Message 5 of 11 , Jun 27, 2004
              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
              <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
              > <murrkis@y...> wrote:
              > > > Dear Nina,
              > > > When you say "we consistantly had at least 1 person(not the
              same
              > > > person) with an emotional reaction to the exercises in each
              class."
              > > > are you suggesting a "negative" emotional reaction? If so,
              perhaps
              > > > there may be a question about the skill level of the teacher.
              > >
              > > There is no need to question the skill level of the teacher.
              These
              > > folks were senior level teachers, able to respond to the
              reactions
              > > and help their students into right practice.
              >
              > Oh well, since they are "senior" teachers, I guess there was no
              lack
              > of expertise, eh? But then again, maybe if they consistantly had
              > negative reactions every class, there should have been "Very
              senior"
              > teachers giving the class!? (he said facetiously:-)

              They are senior teachers because they have a certain
              level of expertise, which encompasses the ability to teach
              various forms of pranayama to teacher trainees with a
              recognizable degree of skill.

              Reactions typically do not fall into binary slots, as in:
              good reaction/bad reaction, a reaction/no reaction. It can
              pretty much be assumed there will be a 'reaction' to any
              input into a system as responsive as a human physiology,
              *whether or not the human physiology consciously recognizes
              it*. These reactions will be qualitative, moreso than
              quantitative. The qualitative nature of these reactions
              are what allow adjustments to be made. Usually, it takes
              a bit of tinkering if you are 'going it alone' in new
              territory... expertise is usually recognized by the
              ability to 'hit the mark' with the adjustments.

              Keep in mind, that whether or not a student reports a
              reaction has as much to do with the environmental
              constraints/supports to this reportage as with the
              fact of a reaction. If a student doesn't share that
              she had a reaction, does this mean she had no reaction?

              > > While it is possible to view the reactions as
              > > 'negative' (weeping, backache, breathlessness, muscle cramps)
              > > or 'positive' (buoyancy, clarity, relaxation, easeful tidal
              > > expansion), it is also possible to view these reactions as
              > > guideposts to fine-tuning a practice.
              > >
              > > > We always had many students report wonderful emotional,
              physical,
              > > mental,
              > > > and spiritual results from what we shared. As a matter of
              fact, the
              > > > 1-4-2 technique is also referred to as the "How to get high
              without
              > > > drugs" technique, and afforded many with a higher high, greater
              > > > insights and inner sights than any drug had ever given them.
              There
              > > > also was a possible to label as problematical side effect to
              this.
              > > The
              > > > technique works so well that some would become bliss-
              seekers/ecstacy
              > > > junkies of a sort. But even if this problem is a problem worth
              > > > mentioning, I know of no evidence anywhere that practicing
              breath
              > > > retention will lead to MS, or any other such consequence.
              > >
              > > I was not claiming that breath retention causes MS, and neither
              > > was Eric Small. I was saying that he was having
              > > reactions to using a breath technique that induced heat in his
              > > body, a body which was undiagnosed with MS and yet had been
              > > displaying the unrecognized symptoms of MS.
              > >
              > > > And I see no
              > > > need or benefit to using this kind of wild claim to discourage
              the
              > > > potential good results experienced by so many for so long of
              > > > practicing pranayama.
              > >
              > > These claims are no more wild than a claim that other than
              > > one woman (whose reaction could be dismissed because she
              > > was asthmatic and couldn't bear to follow her breath in any
              > > form), there have been no reactions in 4000 students.
              >
              > Uh, you're saying that our 4000 students didn't have reactions is a
              > wild claim is not accurate. As I said, they reported very pleasant,
              > beneficial and positive reactions. And that's not so wild, it's
              > what is supposed to happen.

              I am saying that what I have to offer by the way
              of anecdote is no more wild than what you have shared. The
              only possible difference being that what I have observed is
              a greater array of reactions to more advanced forms (or, if you
              prefer, more interventive forms) of pranayama practice.
              This difference in degree of intervention in respiration
              may account for the differences in outcome, btw. Nonetheless,
              both perspectives are anecdotal, and therefore, pretty even
              in reliability as far as evidence goes.

              > And BTW, excuse the possible lack of humility,
              > but these classes were all in public community sponsered adult
              > education programs that were evaluated at the end of each semester
              > bythe students themselves, as well as by the various schools and
              > colleges offering the classes, and our ratings of excellence were
              as
              > good as or better than any of the other hundreds of courses
              offered by
              > the various continuing education programs.
              >
              > > I am not arguing for or against. I am arguing for
              > > refinement.
              > >
              > > > BTW, I question the statement that implies that meditators
              are "so
              > > > busy convincing themselves that physical discomfort was all in
              their
              > > > imagination". We have many oncologists, neurologists,
              cardiologists,
              > > > psychiatrists, GP's, etc attending and sending their patients
              to our
              > > > classes, so as to be better able to deal with their physical
              > > > discomforts. There is no 'bodily dis-ease is all in the mind'
              > > attitude
              > > > prevelant in any of our, or in most meditation classes I know
              of
              > >
              > >
              > > There was in your posts.
              >
              > If you read apples when we intended to offer oranges, so be it.

              If you intended oranges and wrote apples,
              should I accept responsibility for miscommunication?

              By the way, who is "we"?

              > > > (such as those given by the Integral Yoga org or the
              > > > Sivananda ashrams). In
              > > > any event, I do value pranayama greatly, as I do visualization,
              > > > mantra, self-enquiry, Raja yoga, and all the other things that
              bring
              > > > peace to so many, and hope that what we do here on this group
              is
              > > > helping make these concepts and methods available to those who
              seek
              > > > this knowledge.
              > >
              > > Good.
              > >
              > > Nina
              >
              > Yes, the aim of selflessly and freely sharing things of
              > consciousness evolving potential is "Good", and I know
              > that's what you also intend.

              Sure, as long as it is fitting.

              Nina
            • medit8ionsociety
              ... snip ... snip ... Nina, FYI, this was one of the much loved and recently departed Bob Eck s favorite sayings, IE: Hey, we re talking apples here, and
              Message 6 of 11 , Jun 27, 2004
                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
                <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                >
                snip
                Bob wrote:
                > > > > BTW, I question the statement that implies that meditators
                > are "so
                > > > > busy convincing themselves that physical discomfort was all in
                > their
                > > > > imagination". We have many oncologists, neurologists,
                > cardiologists,
                > > > > psychiatrists, GP's, etc attending and sending their patients
                > to our
                > > > > classes, so as to be better able to deal with their physical
                > > > > discomforts. There is no 'bodily dis-ease is all in the mind'
                > > > attitude
                > > > > prevelant in any of our, or in most meditation classes I know
                > of
                > > >
                Nina:
                > > > There was in your posts.
                Bob:
                > > If you read apples when we intended to offer oranges, so be it.
                Nina:
                > If you intended oranges and wrote apples,
                > should I accept responsibility for miscommunication?
                >
                > By the way, who is "we"?
                >
                snip
                > > >
                > > > Nina

                Nina, FYI, this was one of the much loved and recently departed Bob
                Eck's favorite sayings, IE:
                "Hey, we're talking apples here, and you're hearing oranges!" Maybe
                this saying is just a Philly cliche, but unfortunatly, your
                defensiveness is universal.
                Peace and blessings,
                Bob
              • Nina
                ... LOL, you say defensive, I say dismissive, you say facetious, I say capricious, defensive, dismissive, facetious, capricious, let s call the whole thing
                Message 7 of 11 , Jun 27, 2004
                  > Nina, FYI, this was one of the much loved and recently departed Bob
                  > Eck's favorite sayings, IE:
                  > "Hey, we're talking apples here, and you're hearing oranges!" Maybe
                  > this saying is just a Philly cliche, but unfortunatly, your
                  > defensiveness is universal.
                  > Peace and blessings,
                  > Bob

                  LOL, you say defensive, I say dismissive,
                  you say facetious, I say capricious,
                  defensive, dismissive,
                  facetious, capricious,
                  let's call the whole thing off!

                  Or something like that. Maybe they were saying tomatoes
                  instead of apples or oranges. It's still all fruit to me.

                  well-versed in the art of name-calling,
                  Nina
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