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Re: Question about severe leg, feet, & hand cramping

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  • Nina
    ... commentary, ... an ... that a ... and ... Bob, My point was that just because someone teaches meditation and/or hatha yoga does not mean that a person has
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 26, 2004
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      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
      <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
      > <murrkis@y...> wrote:
      > > Hi, Bob,
      > >
      > > Let's take a step back and look at the difference
      > > between meditation and pranayama. For the purposes
      > > of this discussion, let's assume that meditation
      > > operates on the level of 'observing'. Pranayama,
      > > on the other hand, while it may begin with observation
      > > of the breath, does entail actively altering the
      > > patterns of respiration in the body.
      >
      > Dear Nina,
      >
      > I had told the email originator before posting the query about
      > cramping/etc that I would not disclose their name or the specific
      > technique, but it is one of the most widely used of all meditations,
      > and the pranayama that was being done involves only observing the
      > breath, and does not "entail actively altering the patterns of
      > respiration in the body." As for some of the rest of your
      commentary,
      > the classic teaching is in agreement with your advise to "seek out
      an
      > experienced teacher of pranayama", but it is of course possible
      that a
      > meditation or hatha yoga teacher is knowledgable about pranayama,
      and
      > I think you will find them to be few and far between, outside of the
      > meditation/hatha teachers available to most people.
      >
      > Peace and blessings,
      > Bob

      Bob,

      My point was that just because someone teaches meditation
      and/or hatha yoga does not mean that a person has a regular,
      dedicated pranayama practice and the experience that would
      enable them to make a credible evaluation of someone's
      practice - particularly if what may be causing a disruption
      is a matter of fine tuning and not as easy as "relax and
      breathe" or as dismissive as "it's all in your head."

      Have a nice evening.

      Nina
    • Gene Poole
      ... Uh-Oh! ... Ha ha... very funny, Bob... Do you have any choice, but to react to your feelings, in the way that you were exampled? And more deeply... do you
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 27, 2004
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        >, medit8ionsociety <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > > "Gene Poole" blathered:
        >
        > big snip
        > >
        > > If a person desires freedom, to go
        > > directly to the ultimate challenge
        > > to conditioning, is to attempt to
        > > reason through the 'cause and effect'
        > > illusion.
        > >
        > > We live immersed in a vast field of
        > > 'effects' (what we call 'events'), and
        > > our main, chief superstition is the
        > > assumption of existence of 'cause'.
        > >
        > > In every 'case' I have investigated,
        > > it is attachment to 'cause', the fastening
        > > of blame, the creation of self-as-victim
        > > of 'cause', which has been the root of
        > > suffering.
        > >
        > > Even if we 'decide' that events are
        > > 'uncaused', even if we decide that
        > > there is no actual 'doer', those are
        > > merely beliefs, superimposed upon
        > > an infrastructure of assumption of
        > > cause-and-effect.
        > >
        > > If we have a 'therapeutic goal', it is
        > > to remove the 'original band-aid'.
        > >
        > > The 'original band-aid' was a remedy
        > > for a misdiagnosed 'trauma', which was
        > > in reality, a normal life-event, but
        > > unrecognized as such by the child-
        > > awareness. The original band-aid
        > > was 'gifted' by the parent, and is the
        > > beginning of the child's adoption of
        > > the parental style of _compensation_.
        > >
        > snip
        > >
        > > ==Gene Poole==
        >
        > Yo Geneji,
        > So you think you could slip in this brilliant sharing of wisdom
        > between advise about magnesium and epsom salt baths and think that's
        > all that's gonna be said about it? Wrong oh vast one!

        Uh-Oh!


        > You're pointing
        > to the "the creation of self-as-victim of 'cause', which has been the
        > root of suffering." Well, isn't this somewhat acting like a parent
        > applying "the original band-aid"?:-) Please expound on this, so as to
        > avoid our being fastened to some degree of blame for our "adoption of
        > the parental style of _compensation_."
        > Peace and blessings,
        > Bob

        Ha ha... very funny, Bob...

        Do you have any choice, but to react
        to your feelings, in the way that you
        were exampled?

        And more deeply... do you have any
        choice, but to have those feelings,
        based as they are, on the very values
        which formed the core of the parental
        personality?

        And did your parents have any choice,
        about how they would feel, when... and
        how they would compensate for those
        feelings?

        Just whose (ancient) program is running
        this show, anyhow? Is the family way,
        all the way back?

        The consistent factors in all of this, are
        involving our dire need to be successful
        socially; how to 'act' so as to be included,
        not excluded.

        We have taken up an ancient burden we
        do not understand, and carry it as our
        badge of social belonging.

        The 'family' and 'tribe' are the strongest
        social units; those can make or break an
        individual.

        If a family or tribe is collectively 'sick',
        and a child fails to successfully 'adapt'
        to the sickness, the sick tribe/family will
        eject that child, and define his as 'sick'.

        We see a lot of tribal sickness these days;
        and we can only cheer the child, who cannot
        adapt.

        Bob, the 'mind' is like a vase of roses; how
        they are arranged, varies from family to tribe
        to culture. What we need to keep in mind, is that
        given the vase and the roses, we can adopt any
        arrangement we choose.

        Problem is, that if a strong wind occurs, the roses
        return to their 'default' config, which was set in the
        early days of family life.


        ==Gene Poole==
      • medit8ionsociety
        ... Yo Geneji, Great stuff, and right on. I see real life examples of what you point to daily as I work with behavior-problem young girls, and see the way
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 27, 2004
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Poole"
          <gene_poole@q...> wrote:
          > >, medit8ionsociety <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > > > "Gene Poole" blathered:
          > >
          > > big snip
          > > >
          > > > If a person desires freedom, to go
          > > > directly to the ultimate challenge
          > > > to conditioning, is to attempt to
          > > > reason through the 'cause and effect'
          > > > illusion.
          > > >
          > > > We live immersed in a vast field of
          > > > 'effects' (what we call 'events'), and
          > > > our main, chief superstition is the
          > > > assumption of existence of 'cause'.
          > > >
          > > > In every 'case' I have investigated,
          > > > it is attachment to 'cause', the fastening
          > > > of blame, the creation of self-as-victim
          > > > of 'cause', which has been the root of
          > > > suffering.
          > > >
          > > > Even if we 'decide' that events are
          > > > 'uncaused', even if we decide that
          > > > there is no actual 'doer', those are
          > > > merely beliefs, superimposed upon
          > > > an infrastructure of assumption of
          > > > cause-and-effect.
          > > >
          > > > If we have a 'therapeutic goal', it is
          > > > to remove the 'original band-aid'.
          > > >
          > > > The 'original band-aid' was a remedy
          > > > for a misdiagnosed 'trauma', which was
          > > > in reality, a normal life-event, but
          > > > unrecognized as such by the child-
          > > > awareness. The original band-aid
          > > > was 'gifted' by the parent, and is the
          > > > beginning of the child's adoption of
          > > > the parental style of _compensation_.
          > > >
          > > snip
          > > >
          > > > ==Gene Poole==
          > >
          > > Yo Geneji,
          > > So you think you could slip in this brilliant sharing of wisdom
          > > between advise about magnesium and epsom salt baths and think that's
          > > all that's gonna be said about it? Wrong oh vast one!
          >
          > Uh-Oh!
          >
          >
          > > You're pointing
          > > to the "the creation of self-as-victim of 'cause', which has been the
          > > root of suffering." Well, isn't this somewhat acting like a parent
          > > applying "the original band-aid"?:-) Please expound on this, so as to
          > > avoid our being fastened to some degree of blame for our "adoption of
          > > the parental style of _compensation_."
          > > Peace and blessings,
          > > Bob
          >
          > Ha ha... very funny, Bob...
          >
          > Do you have any choice, but to react
          > to your feelings, in the way that you
          > were exampled?
          >
          > And more deeply... do you have any
          > choice, but to have those feelings,
          > based as they are, on the very values
          > which formed the core of the parental
          > personality?
          >
          > And did your parents have any choice,
          > about how they would feel, when... and
          > how they would compensate for those
          > feelings?
          >
          > Just whose (ancient) program is running
          > this show, anyhow? Is the family way,
          > all the way back?
          >
          > The consistent factors in all of this, are
          > involving our dire need to be successful
          > socially; how to 'act' so as to be included,
          > not excluded.
          >
          > We have taken up an ancient burden we
          > do not understand, and carry it as our
          > badge of social belonging.
          >
          > The 'family' and 'tribe' are the strongest
          > social units; those can make or break an
          > individual.
          >
          > If a family or tribe is collectively 'sick',
          > and a child fails to successfully 'adapt'
          > to the sickness, the sick tribe/family will
          > eject that child, and define his as 'sick'.
          >
          > We see a lot of tribal sickness these days;
          > and we can only cheer the child, who cannot
          > adapt.
          >
          > Bob, the 'mind' is like a vase of roses; how
          > they are arranged, varies from family to tribe
          > to culture. What we need to keep in mind, is that
          > given the vase and the roses, we can adopt any
          > arrangement we choose.
          >
          > Problem is, that if a strong wind occurs, the roses
          > return to their 'default' config, which was set in the
          > early days of family life.
          >
          >
          > ==Gene Poole==

          Yo Geneji,
          Great stuff, and right on. I see "real life" examples of what you
          point to daily as I work with "behavior-problem" young girls, and see
          the way sickness and anti-social traits/behaviors are mimiced through
          generations. Grandma was an asthmatic, and so is Mama, so the child
          believes and insists she is, even though there are no signs or
          symptoms whatsoever. And G-mom hit her kid, and Mama hit our client,
          and she answers situations by hitting first and often. A nice thing I
          do see is that sometimes the arrangement of flowers can be changed and
          the innate beauty can appear. But we have a society that insists all
          too often that after the flowers have begun to thrive, on returning
          the children to the same family and conditions that emphasized the
          thorns on the stems and not the wonderful aromas and beauty that have
          been achieved. And yes, "it is attachment to 'cause', the fastening of
          blame, the creation of self-as-victim as 'cause', ... (that) has been
          the root of suffering". And in the majority of cases, soon after
          returning to the original biological and environmental influences, the
          flowers wither and rot. And for our girls, too often, a life of shame,
          degradation and abuse continues.
          Peace and blessings,
          Bob
        • Nina
          ... The mind boggles at the conversations to be had, in which one repeatedly replaces My Family Way for I . How could one possibly remain attached to one s
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 27, 2004
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
            "Gene Poole" <gene_poole@q...> wrote:

            > Do you have any choice, but to react
            > to your feelings, in the way that you
            > were exampled?
            >
            > And more deeply... do you have any
            > choice, but to have those feelings,
            > based as they are, on the very values
            > which formed the core of the parental
            > personality?
            >
            > And did your parents have any choice,
            > about how they would feel, when... and
            > how they would compensate for those
            > feelings?
            >
            > Just whose (ancient) program is running
            > this show, anyhow? Is the family way,
            > all the way back?

            The mind boggles at the conversations to be had,
            in which one repeatedly replaces "My Family Way"
            for "I". How could one possibly remain attached
            to one's identity when it is referenced in such a way?
            Beyond knowing that it exists and recognizing its
            operation, is there any hope of moving beyond
            "My Family Way"? It is doubtful, in the way that
            it is 'impossible' to move beyond the ever fragmenting
            bounds of a fractal. Who is to say that moving
            beyond "My Family Way" is not simply... part of
            "My Family Way"?

            Nina
          • tom_flou
            Hi here is a physoilogical view. If Pranayam is practiced as paying attention to the breathing without changing its natural rhythm in any way, this part can
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 27, 2004
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              Hi here is a physoilogical view.

              If Pranayam is practiced as paying attention to the breathing
              without changing its natural rhythm in any way, this part can hardly
              have any adverse physiological effects.
              But if the breathing is forced or reduced and so the natural self-
              regulation of this very complicated and delicate process is
              tampered with, the consequences can be rather knowledgeable.
              The resting breath rate is about 15/min. securing a oxygen density
              in the tissues at close to 100%
              If breath rate is increased (Hyperventilation) it does not affect
              the oxygen tension much, but it does markedly decrease the CO2
              tension.
              This causes an increase in free hydrogen ions and thus a lowering of
              the pH of the blood and subsequently the body fluids. (Respiratory
              acidosis) This has rather immediate and noticeable effects on the
              body involved. Some symptoms are dizziness, confusion. (Even out of
              body experiences and hallucinations)
              As a result of the lowering pH of the blood, even a lowering of
              calcium occurs, resulting in numbness and tingling in hands, arms
              and in the face, spasms or cramps of hands and feet.
              It has bees suggested here to breathe deeply at a rate of 60/min.
              This will in a short time result in such a respiratory acidosis of
              the body. Possibly with any number of the above mentioned symptoms
              emerging. It is not a serious medical condition, as the person
              affected if he does not stop, will finally pass out, thereby
              automatically returning his breathing to normal and correcting the
              offset blood chemistry.
              Hyperventilation is an integral part of most panic disorders,
              all of these symptoms giving the sufferer "proof" that something is
              seriously wrong in the body.
              The condition is treated with reassurance and if needed, placing a
              plastic bag over the mouth and nose so the CO2 can reenter the body.

              Magnesium deficiency is of rare clinical relevance.

              Dietary or external applications has at best a very limited effect.

              Cheers

              Tom
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