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Re: Question about severe leg, feet, & hand cramping

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  • Nina
    ... After reading what Gene had to say about magnesium, I did a search on oxygen, magnesium and respiration/pranayama. Really, there is a connection between
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 26, 2004
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      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
      "Gene Poole" <gene_poole@q...> wrote:
      > In any event, soaking in a tub of warm
      > water which contains about 2 cups of
      > dissolved Epsom salts, may prove an
      > efficacious remedy for diverse cramps
      > and spasms. But running a check on
      > any possible wasting of magnesium is
      > a good idea.
      >
      >
      > ==Gene Poole==

      After reading what Gene had to say about
      magnesium, I did a search on oxygen,
      magnesium and respiration/pranayama.
      Really, there is a connection between
      levels of magnesium, alkalinity/acidity
      of the body, oxygen/carbon dioxide
      homeostasis and breathing... which is,
      unfortunately, still beyond me to explain. :)
      Anyway, one thing I read was that one
      way to oxygenate the system is to soak
      in a tub of water with hydrogen peroxide
      added. Interesting... though I still have
      no idea how or if that works, I thought I'd
      toss it into the conversation.

      Nina
    • Andy
      ... wrote: Bob ~ you wrote: If you have a clean bill of physical things really not causing these symptoms from your physician, I think you
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 26, 2004
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
        <no_reply@y...> wrote:

        Bob ~
        you wrote:

        "If you have a clean bill of physical things 'really' not causing
        these symptoms from your physician, I think you have to point to your
        mind as the culprit. And this is a good sign, as it indicates that
        you are on the right track. It's like you have now started sawing
        through the bars to your prison, and they will soon break and never
        again bar your way to freedom. But during the sawing, the sounds of
        steel being weakened can make quite a racket. Persevere!"


        Underneath (or between) the words above, is the unstated assumption
        that meditation is an appropriate activity for anyone who feels
        compelled to try it. Another possible interpretation of the body's
        pain signals is that the person is not, at that time, ready for what
        may be seen during meditation. Sure, it could be the mind's way of
        derailing what it perceives as an "assault." And certainly, there
        are instances when one may find one's self persevering despite the
        pain. But I would approach this cautiously because maybe Pandora's
        Box is opening too quickly for the person, and the physical pain
        signals are a protection and not a distraction.

        The human mind/psyche is quite complex and there are a variety of
        people for whom meditation is contraindicated (dissociative
        personality disorder, e.g.). Just like a nutrient-packed food such
        as broccoli isn't for everyone (George Bush Sr.), I have a sense that
        meditation isn't for everyone. Some people just don't want to look
        inside in that manner, but they feel compelled to do so. And some
        are stubborn enough to keep at it even though they find it boring or
        useless. So, perhaps the mind/brain enlists the body to dissuade the
        organism via pain. Ironically, a strong sense of self, ego, needs to
        be present to see that the self/ego is illusory (at least in one
        sense). I think it was Jack Engler, in "Transformations
        of Consciousness" who wrote, "You have to first have a self before
        you can lose your self." :-) He goes on to elaborate on this,
        pointing out that a stable sense of self is required to handle some
        of what comes up (and is disassembled) during deep, persistent
        meditation. If the psychological infrastructure is weak, the
        evaporating of the illusion may prove too threatening.

        You can probably tell what's coming: imo, pain plays no role in
        meditation. If there is pain, it is a cry from some part of the
        mind, asking that it be attended to (even if the pain isn't of
        physical origin, although apparently both psychological and physical
        pain originate in the same regions of the brain). Physical pain is a
        message of some sort, and not always a distraction because the person
        is getting "too close" to seeing something. I think Deep Seeing can
        occur without the accompaniment of pain. The meditator just needs to
        be respectful of Its schedule. It "opens" at Its own rate (if it
        opens at all, of course).

        gassho
      • Gene Poole
        ... Think of it this way; Magnesium ions form the electrical environment which enables proper muscle tonus; (although, calcium ions are equally important) and
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 26, 2004
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina" <murrkis@y...> wrote:
          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
          > "Gene Poole" <gene_poole@q...> wrote:
          > > In any event, soaking in a tub of warm
          > > water which contains about 2 cups of
          > > dissolved Epsom salts, may prove an
          > > efficacious remedy for diverse cramps
          > > and spasms. But running a check on
          > > any possible wasting of magnesium is
          > > a good idea.
          > >
          > >
          > > ==Gene Poole==
          >
          > After reading what Gene had to say about
          > magnesium, I did a search on oxygen,
          > magnesium and respiration/pranayama.
          > Really, there is a connection between
          > levels of magnesium, alkalinity/acidity
          > of the body, oxygen/carbon dioxide
          > homeostasis and breathing... which is,
          > unfortunately, still beyond me to explain. :)

          Think of it this way;

          Magnesium ions form the
          electrical environment which
          enables proper muscle tonus;
          (although, calcium ions are
          equally important) and if in
          short supply for any reason,
          symptoms will occur.


          > Anyway, one thing I read was that one
          > way to oxygenate the system is to soak
          > in a tub of water with hydrogen peroxide
          > added. Interesting... though I still have
          > no idea how or if that works, I thought I'd
          > toss it into the conversation.
          >
          > Nina

          BRRRRRZZZZRRRRPP! <--- myth alert klaxon

          Using hydrogen peroxide
          internally or externally does
          NOT 'oxygenate the system'.

          Unfortunately, the proponents
          of hydrogen peroxide use, who
          are involved in MLM promotions
          of expensive 'stabilized oxygen
          beverages', etc, have been stating
          their hype for so long, that it has
          become an oft-repeated myth.

          I repeat; bathe in Epsom salts
          water, to alleviate minor muscle
          cramps. Please do not repeat
          stories which glorify hydrogen
          peroxide as other than an effective
          germicide and/or rocket fuel
          catalyst.


          ==Gene Poole==
        • Bruce Morgen
          ... Gene Poole wrote: In any event, soaking in a tub of warm water which contains about 2 cups of dissolved Epsom salts, may prove an
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 26, 2004
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            Gene Poole wrote:
            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina" <murrkis@y...> wrote:
              
            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, 
            "Gene Poole" <gene_poole@q...> wrote:
                
            In any event, soaking in a tub of warm
            water which contains about 2 cups of
            dissolved Epsom salts, may prove an
            efficacious remedy for diverse cramps
            and spasms. But running a check on
            any possible wasting of magnesium is
            a good idea.
            
            
            ==Gene Poole==
                  
            After reading what Gene had to say about
            magnesium, I did a search on oxygen,
            magnesium and respiration/pranayama.
            Really, there is a connection between
            levels of magnesium, alkalinity/acidity
            of the body, oxygen/carbon dioxide
            homeostasis and breathing... which is,
            unfortunately, still beyond me to explain. :)
                
            Think of it this way;
            
            Magnesium ions form the
            electrical environment which
            enables proper muscle tonus;
            (although, calcium ions are
            equally important) and if in
            short supply for any reason,
            symptoms will occur.
            
            
              
            Anyway, one thing I read was that one
            way to oxygenate the system is to soak
            in a tub of water with hydrogen peroxide
            added. Interesting... though I still have
            no idea how or if that works, I thought I'd
            toss it into the conversation.
            
            Nina
                
            BRRRRRZZZZRRRRPP! <--- myth alert klaxon
            
            Using hydrogen peroxide
            internally or externally does
            NOT 'oxygenate the system'.
            
            Unfortunately, the proponents
            of hydrogen peroxide use, who
            are involved in MLM promotions
            of expensive 'stabilized oxygen
            beverages', etc, have been stating
            their hype for so long, that it has
            become an oft-repeated myth.
            
            I repeat; bathe  in  Epsom salts
            water, to alleviate minor muscle
            cramps. Please do not repeat
            stories which glorify hydrogen
            peroxide as other than an effective
            germicide and/or rocket fuel 
            catalyst. 
            
            
              
            As long as we're striving
            for factual accuracy here,
            hydrogen peroxide doesn't
            act as a "catalyst" but
            rather as an easier-to-
            handle (but less efficent)
            alternative to liquid
            oxygen in liquid-fueled
            rocket systems.
          • medit8ionsociety
            ... Dear Nina, I had told the email originator before posting the query about cramping/etc that I would not disclose their name or the specific technique, but
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 26, 2004
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              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
              <murrkis@y...> wrote:
              > Hi, Bob,
              >
              > Let's take a step back and look at the difference
              > between meditation and pranayama. For the purposes
              > of this discussion, let's assume that meditation
              > operates on the level of 'observing'. Pranayama,
              > on the other hand, while it may begin with observation
              > of the breath, does entail actively altering the
              > patterns of respiration in the body.

              Dear Nina,

              I had told the email originator before posting the query about
              cramping/etc that I would not disclose their name or the specific
              technique, but it is one of the most widely used of all meditations,
              and the pranayama that was being done involves only observing the
              breath, and does not "entail actively altering the patterns of
              respiration in the body." As for some of the rest of your commentary,
              the classic teaching is in agreement with your advise to "seek out an
              experienced teacher of pranayama", but it is of course possible that a
              meditation or hatha yoga teacher is knowledgable about pranayama, and
              I think you will find them to be few and far between, outside of the
              meditation/hatha teachers available to most people.

              Peace and blessings,
              Bob

              > For this reason,
              > I would not compare the cramps one may experience
              > while practicing pranayama necessarily with those of
              > meditation.
              >
              > The first thing that comes to my mind in response to
              > this emailer's question is: has your practice of
              > pranayama lowered the levels of oxygen available
              > to your muscles, either by sitting/lying in a position
              > that is constricting your circulation or by breathing
              > in patterns that reduce the levels of oxygen in your
              > body? This is sometimes difficult to know on your
              > own, so it is helpful to seek out an experienced teacher
              > of pranayama (not just a meditation or hatha yoga teacher)
              > and have him/her evaluate your practice.
              >
              > One of the most common things I have seen in pranayama
              > practice is the tendency to push too early and long into
              > an altered pattern such that one's body tenses around the
              > breath, or one becomes breathless, spacey, or emotionally
              > volatile. It would be unwise, when dealing with pranayama,
              > to point to these 'symptoms' as 'noise from my inner
              > chatterer' and press forward. These are signs of disruption,
              > and the causes are often directly related to how one is
              > practicing.
              >
              > When you experience disruption in your pranayama practice,
              > it may help to back off on the frequency and duration of
              > altered breath cycles. For instance, practice the altered
              > pattern for 1 or 2 cycles and then return to several cycles
              > of normal breathing or until you feel entirely relaxed again.
              > At any time, if you feel tension anywhere in your body,
              > thoughts or emotions, go back to normal breathing.
              >
              > The other issue may indeed be the position used for practicing
              > pranayama. For many western folks, sitting in Padmasana for
              > pranayama simply isn't productive. Most of us simply don't
              > have the degree of hip flexibility necessary for most positions
              > that require us to sit on the ground, including Padmasana and
              > Sukhasana. The exception might be sitting on a block in Virasana,
              > but again, if you wish to reduce your cramping, make sure you
              > circulation is in no way impaired. The block must be high enough
              > to provide ease to your knees and level support to your pelvis
              > so that your central channel and spine can lift into alignment.
              > Or you might try reclining pranayama or pranayama while sitting
              > in a chair.
              >
              > In any case, if your muscle cramps do not resolve with simple
              > fixes such as those articulated above, it is advisable to seek
              > out an experienced teacher of pranayama to evaluate your practice.
              > (Note: a teacher of meditation and/or hatha yoga will not
              > necessarily understand the workings of pranayama.)
              >
              > Have you read Richard Rosen's book 'The Yoga of Breath'?
              > It and David Coulter's section on breathing in 'Anatomy of
              > Hatha Yoga: A Manual for Students, Teachers and Practicioners'
              > are excellent companions to a pranayama practice. Rosen's
              > book gives a practice outline and offers numerous options
              > as regards sitting/lying positions for the practice. Coulter's
              > book is highly informative as regards the physiological
              > workings of pranayama.
              >
              > Good luck...
              > Nina
            • Nina
              Gene wrote: BRRRRRZZZZRRRRPP!
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 26, 2004
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                Gene wrote:

                BRRRRRZZZZRRRRPP! <--- myth alert klaxon
                Using hydrogen peroxide
                internally or externally does
                NOT 'oxygenate the system'.
                Unfortunately, the proponents
                of hydrogen peroxide use, who
                are involved in MLM promotions
                of expensive 'stabilized oxygen
                beverages', etc, have been stating
                their hype for so long, that it has
                become an oft-repeated myth.
                I repeat; bathe in Epsom salts
                water, to alleviate minor muscle
                cramps. Please do not repeat
                stories which glorify hydrogen
                peroxide as other than an effective
                germicide and/or rocket fuel catalyst.

                Bruce wrote:

                As long as we're striving
                for factual accuracy here,
                hydrogen peroxide doesn't
                act as a "catalyst" but
                rather as an easier-to-
                handle (but less efficent)
                alternative to liquid
                oxygen in liquid-fueled
                rocket systems.

                Nina wrote:

                What - are you guys rocket scientists
                or something?
              • medit8ionsociety
                ... big snip ... snip ... Yo Geneji, So you think you could slip in this brilliant sharing of wisdom between advise about magnesium and epsom salt baths and
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 26, 2004
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                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Poole"

                  big snip
                  >
                  > If a person desires freedom, to go
                  > directly to the ultimate challenge
                  > to conditioning, is to attempt to
                  > reason through the 'cause and effect'
                  > illusion.
                  >
                  > We live immersed in a vast field of
                  > 'effects' (what we call 'events'), and
                  > our main, chief superstition is the
                  > assumption of existence of 'cause'.
                  >
                  > In every 'case' I have investigated,
                  > it is attachment to 'cause', the fastening
                  > of blame, the creation of self-as-victim
                  > of 'cause', which has been the root of
                  > suffering.
                  >
                  > Even if we 'decide' that events are
                  > 'uncaused', even if we decide that
                  > there is no actual 'doer', those are
                  > merely beliefs, superimposed upon
                  > an infrastructure of assumption of
                  > cause-and-effect.
                  >
                  > If we have a 'therapeutic goal', it is
                  > to remove the 'original band-aid'.
                  >
                  > The 'original band-aid' was a remedy
                  > for a misdiagnosed 'trauma', which was
                  > in reality, a normal life-event, but
                  > unrecognized as such by the child-
                  > awareness. The original band-aid
                  > was 'gifted' by the parent, and is the
                  > beginning of the child's adoption of
                  > the parental style of _compensation_.
                  >
                  snip
                  >
                  > ==Gene Poole==

                  Yo Geneji,
                  So you think you could slip in this brilliant sharing of wisdom
                  between advise about magnesium and epsom salt baths and think that's
                  all that's gonna be said about it? Wrong oh vast one! You're pointing
                  to the "the creation of self-as-victim of 'cause', which has been the
                  root of suffering." Well, isn't this somewhat acting like a parent
                  applying "the original band-aid"?:-) Please expound on this, so as to
                  avoid our being fastened to some degree of blame for our "adoption of
                  the parental style of _compensation_."
                  Peace and blessings,
                  Bob
                • Nina
                  ... commentary, ... an ... that a ... and ... Bob, My point was that just because someone teaches meditation and/or hatha yoga does not mean that a person has
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 26, 2004
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                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
                    <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
                    > <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                    > > Hi, Bob,
                    > >
                    > > Let's take a step back and look at the difference
                    > > between meditation and pranayama. For the purposes
                    > > of this discussion, let's assume that meditation
                    > > operates on the level of 'observing'. Pranayama,
                    > > on the other hand, while it may begin with observation
                    > > of the breath, does entail actively altering the
                    > > patterns of respiration in the body.
                    >
                    > Dear Nina,
                    >
                    > I had told the email originator before posting the query about
                    > cramping/etc that I would not disclose their name or the specific
                    > technique, but it is one of the most widely used of all meditations,
                    > and the pranayama that was being done involves only observing the
                    > breath, and does not "entail actively altering the patterns of
                    > respiration in the body." As for some of the rest of your
                    commentary,
                    > the classic teaching is in agreement with your advise to "seek out
                    an
                    > experienced teacher of pranayama", but it is of course possible
                    that a
                    > meditation or hatha yoga teacher is knowledgable about pranayama,
                    and
                    > I think you will find them to be few and far between, outside of the
                    > meditation/hatha teachers available to most people.
                    >
                    > Peace and blessings,
                    > Bob

                    Bob,

                    My point was that just because someone teaches meditation
                    and/or hatha yoga does not mean that a person has a regular,
                    dedicated pranayama practice and the experience that would
                    enable them to make a credible evaluation of someone's
                    practice - particularly if what may be causing a disruption
                    is a matter of fine tuning and not as easy as "relax and
                    breathe" or as dismissive as "it's all in your head."

                    Have a nice evening.

                    Nina
                  • Gene Poole
                    ... Uh-Oh! ... Ha ha... very funny, Bob... Do you have any choice, but to react to your feelings, in the way that you were exampled? And more deeply... do you
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 27, 2004
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                      >, medit8ionsociety <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                      > > "Gene Poole" blathered:
                      >
                      > big snip
                      > >
                      > > If a person desires freedom, to go
                      > > directly to the ultimate challenge
                      > > to conditioning, is to attempt to
                      > > reason through the 'cause and effect'
                      > > illusion.
                      > >
                      > > We live immersed in a vast field of
                      > > 'effects' (what we call 'events'), and
                      > > our main, chief superstition is the
                      > > assumption of existence of 'cause'.
                      > >
                      > > In every 'case' I have investigated,
                      > > it is attachment to 'cause', the fastening
                      > > of blame, the creation of self-as-victim
                      > > of 'cause', which has been the root of
                      > > suffering.
                      > >
                      > > Even if we 'decide' that events are
                      > > 'uncaused', even if we decide that
                      > > there is no actual 'doer', those are
                      > > merely beliefs, superimposed upon
                      > > an infrastructure of assumption of
                      > > cause-and-effect.
                      > >
                      > > If we have a 'therapeutic goal', it is
                      > > to remove the 'original band-aid'.
                      > >
                      > > The 'original band-aid' was a remedy
                      > > for a misdiagnosed 'trauma', which was
                      > > in reality, a normal life-event, but
                      > > unrecognized as such by the child-
                      > > awareness. The original band-aid
                      > > was 'gifted' by the parent, and is the
                      > > beginning of the child's adoption of
                      > > the parental style of _compensation_.
                      > >
                      > snip
                      > >
                      > > ==Gene Poole==
                      >
                      > Yo Geneji,
                      > So you think you could slip in this brilliant sharing of wisdom
                      > between advise about magnesium and epsom salt baths and think that's
                      > all that's gonna be said about it? Wrong oh vast one!

                      Uh-Oh!


                      > You're pointing
                      > to the "the creation of self-as-victim of 'cause', which has been the
                      > root of suffering." Well, isn't this somewhat acting like a parent
                      > applying "the original band-aid"?:-) Please expound on this, so as to
                      > avoid our being fastened to some degree of blame for our "adoption of
                      > the parental style of _compensation_."
                      > Peace and blessings,
                      > Bob

                      Ha ha... very funny, Bob...

                      Do you have any choice, but to react
                      to your feelings, in the way that you
                      were exampled?

                      And more deeply... do you have any
                      choice, but to have those feelings,
                      based as they are, on the very values
                      which formed the core of the parental
                      personality?

                      And did your parents have any choice,
                      about how they would feel, when... and
                      how they would compensate for those
                      feelings?

                      Just whose (ancient) program is running
                      this show, anyhow? Is the family way,
                      all the way back?

                      The consistent factors in all of this, are
                      involving our dire need to be successful
                      socially; how to 'act' so as to be included,
                      not excluded.

                      We have taken up an ancient burden we
                      do not understand, and carry it as our
                      badge of social belonging.

                      The 'family' and 'tribe' are the strongest
                      social units; those can make or break an
                      individual.

                      If a family or tribe is collectively 'sick',
                      and a child fails to successfully 'adapt'
                      to the sickness, the sick tribe/family will
                      eject that child, and define his as 'sick'.

                      We see a lot of tribal sickness these days;
                      and we can only cheer the child, who cannot
                      adapt.

                      Bob, the 'mind' is like a vase of roses; how
                      they are arranged, varies from family to tribe
                      to culture. What we need to keep in mind, is that
                      given the vase and the roses, we can adopt any
                      arrangement we choose.

                      Problem is, that if a strong wind occurs, the roses
                      return to their 'default' config, which was set in the
                      early days of family life.


                      ==Gene Poole==
                    • medit8ionsociety
                      ... Yo Geneji, Great stuff, and right on. I see real life examples of what you point to daily as I work with behavior-problem young girls, and see the way
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 27, 2004
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                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Poole"
                        <gene_poole@q...> wrote:
                        > >, medit8ionsociety <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                        > > > "Gene Poole" blathered:
                        > >
                        > > big snip
                        > > >
                        > > > If a person desires freedom, to go
                        > > > directly to the ultimate challenge
                        > > > to conditioning, is to attempt to
                        > > > reason through the 'cause and effect'
                        > > > illusion.
                        > > >
                        > > > We live immersed in a vast field of
                        > > > 'effects' (what we call 'events'), and
                        > > > our main, chief superstition is the
                        > > > assumption of existence of 'cause'.
                        > > >
                        > > > In every 'case' I have investigated,
                        > > > it is attachment to 'cause', the fastening
                        > > > of blame, the creation of self-as-victim
                        > > > of 'cause', which has been the root of
                        > > > suffering.
                        > > >
                        > > > Even if we 'decide' that events are
                        > > > 'uncaused', even if we decide that
                        > > > there is no actual 'doer', those are
                        > > > merely beliefs, superimposed upon
                        > > > an infrastructure of assumption of
                        > > > cause-and-effect.
                        > > >
                        > > > If we have a 'therapeutic goal', it is
                        > > > to remove the 'original band-aid'.
                        > > >
                        > > > The 'original band-aid' was a remedy
                        > > > for a misdiagnosed 'trauma', which was
                        > > > in reality, a normal life-event, but
                        > > > unrecognized as such by the child-
                        > > > awareness. The original band-aid
                        > > > was 'gifted' by the parent, and is the
                        > > > beginning of the child's adoption of
                        > > > the parental style of _compensation_.
                        > > >
                        > > snip
                        > > >
                        > > > ==Gene Poole==
                        > >
                        > > Yo Geneji,
                        > > So you think you could slip in this brilliant sharing of wisdom
                        > > between advise about magnesium and epsom salt baths and think that's
                        > > all that's gonna be said about it? Wrong oh vast one!
                        >
                        > Uh-Oh!
                        >
                        >
                        > > You're pointing
                        > > to the "the creation of self-as-victim of 'cause', which has been the
                        > > root of suffering." Well, isn't this somewhat acting like a parent
                        > > applying "the original band-aid"?:-) Please expound on this, so as to
                        > > avoid our being fastened to some degree of blame for our "adoption of
                        > > the parental style of _compensation_."
                        > > Peace and blessings,
                        > > Bob
                        >
                        > Ha ha... very funny, Bob...
                        >
                        > Do you have any choice, but to react
                        > to your feelings, in the way that you
                        > were exampled?
                        >
                        > And more deeply... do you have any
                        > choice, but to have those feelings,
                        > based as they are, on the very values
                        > which formed the core of the parental
                        > personality?
                        >
                        > And did your parents have any choice,
                        > about how they would feel, when... and
                        > how they would compensate for those
                        > feelings?
                        >
                        > Just whose (ancient) program is running
                        > this show, anyhow? Is the family way,
                        > all the way back?
                        >
                        > The consistent factors in all of this, are
                        > involving our dire need to be successful
                        > socially; how to 'act' so as to be included,
                        > not excluded.
                        >
                        > We have taken up an ancient burden we
                        > do not understand, and carry it as our
                        > badge of social belonging.
                        >
                        > The 'family' and 'tribe' are the strongest
                        > social units; those can make or break an
                        > individual.
                        >
                        > If a family or tribe is collectively 'sick',
                        > and a child fails to successfully 'adapt'
                        > to the sickness, the sick tribe/family will
                        > eject that child, and define his as 'sick'.
                        >
                        > We see a lot of tribal sickness these days;
                        > and we can only cheer the child, who cannot
                        > adapt.
                        >
                        > Bob, the 'mind' is like a vase of roses; how
                        > they are arranged, varies from family to tribe
                        > to culture. What we need to keep in mind, is that
                        > given the vase and the roses, we can adopt any
                        > arrangement we choose.
                        >
                        > Problem is, that if a strong wind occurs, the roses
                        > return to their 'default' config, which was set in the
                        > early days of family life.
                        >
                        >
                        > ==Gene Poole==

                        Yo Geneji,
                        Great stuff, and right on. I see "real life" examples of what you
                        point to daily as I work with "behavior-problem" young girls, and see
                        the way sickness and anti-social traits/behaviors are mimiced through
                        generations. Grandma was an asthmatic, and so is Mama, so the child
                        believes and insists she is, even though there are no signs or
                        symptoms whatsoever. And G-mom hit her kid, and Mama hit our client,
                        and she answers situations by hitting first and often. A nice thing I
                        do see is that sometimes the arrangement of flowers can be changed and
                        the innate beauty can appear. But we have a society that insists all
                        too often that after the flowers have begun to thrive, on returning
                        the children to the same family and conditions that emphasized the
                        thorns on the stems and not the wonderful aromas and beauty that have
                        been achieved. And yes, "it is attachment to 'cause', the fastening of
                        blame, the creation of self-as-victim as 'cause', ... (that) has been
                        the root of suffering". And in the majority of cases, soon after
                        returning to the original biological and environmental influences, the
                        flowers wither and rot. And for our girls, too often, a life of shame,
                        degradation and abuse continues.
                        Peace and blessings,
                        Bob
                      • Nina
                        ... The mind boggles at the conversations to be had, in which one repeatedly replaces My Family Way for I . How could one possibly remain attached to one s
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 27, 2004
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                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                          "Gene Poole" <gene_poole@q...> wrote:

                          > Do you have any choice, but to react
                          > to your feelings, in the way that you
                          > were exampled?
                          >
                          > And more deeply... do you have any
                          > choice, but to have those feelings,
                          > based as they are, on the very values
                          > which formed the core of the parental
                          > personality?
                          >
                          > And did your parents have any choice,
                          > about how they would feel, when... and
                          > how they would compensate for those
                          > feelings?
                          >
                          > Just whose (ancient) program is running
                          > this show, anyhow? Is the family way,
                          > all the way back?

                          The mind boggles at the conversations to be had,
                          in which one repeatedly replaces "My Family Way"
                          for "I". How could one possibly remain attached
                          to one's identity when it is referenced in such a way?
                          Beyond knowing that it exists and recognizing its
                          operation, is there any hope of moving beyond
                          "My Family Way"? It is doubtful, in the way that
                          it is 'impossible' to move beyond the ever fragmenting
                          bounds of a fractal. Who is to say that moving
                          beyond "My Family Way" is not simply... part of
                          "My Family Way"?

                          Nina
                        • tom_flou
                          Hi here is a physoilogical view. If Pranayam is practiced as paying attention to the breathing without changing its natural rhythm in any way, this part can
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jun 27, 2004
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                            Hi here is a physoilogical view.

                            If Pranayam is practiced as paying attention to the breathing
                            without changing its natural rhythm in any way, this part can hardly
                            have any adverse physiological effects.
                            But if the breathing is forced or reduced and so the natural self-
                            regulation of this very complicated and delicate process is
                            tampered with, the consequences can be rather knowledgeable.
                            The resting breath rate is about 15/min. securing a oxygen density
                            in the tissues at close to 100%
                            If breath rate is increased (Hyperventilation) it does not affect
                            the oxygen tension much, but it does markedly decrease the CO2
                            tension.
                            This causes an increase in free hydrogen ions and thus a lowering of
                            the pH of the blood and subsequently the body fluids. (Respiratory
                            acidosis) This has rather immediate and noticeable effects on the
                            body involved. Some symptoms are dizziness, confusion. (Even out of
                            body experiences and hallucinations)
                            As a result of the lowering pH of the blood, even a lowering of
                            calcium occurs, resulting in numbness and tingling in hands, arms
                            and in the face, spasms or cramps of hands and feet.
                            It has bees suggested here to breathe deeply at a rate of 60/min.
                            This will in a short time result in such a respiratory acidosis of
                            the body. Possibly with any number of the above mentioned symptoms
                            emerging. It is not a serious medical condition, as the person
                            affected if he does not stop, will finally pass out, thereby
                            automatically returning his breathing to normal and correcting the
                            offset blood chemistry.
                            Hyperventilation is an integral part of most panic disorders,
                            all of these symptoms giving the sufferer "proof" that something is
                            seriously wrong in the body.
                            The condition is treated with reassurance and if needed, placing a
                            plastic bag over the mouth and nose so the CO2 can reenter the body.

                            Magnesium deficiency is of rare clinical relevance.

                            Dietary or external applications has at best a very limited effect.

                            Cheers

                            Tom
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