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Re: Question about severe leg, feet, & hand cramping

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  • Nina
    Hi, Bob, Let s take a step back and look at the difference between meditation and pranayama. For the purposes of this discussion, let s assume that meditation
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 26, 2004
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      Hi, Bob,

      Let's take a step back and look at the difference
      between meditation and pranayama. For the purposes
      of this discussion, let's assume that meditation
      operates on the level of 'observing'. Pranayama,
      on the other hand, while it may begin with observation
      of the breath, does entail actively altering the
      patterns of respiration in the body. For this reason,
      I would not compare the cramps one may experience
      while practicing pranayama necessarily with those of
      meditation.

      The first thing that comes to my mind in response to
      this emailer's question is: has your practice of
      pranayama lowered the levels of oxygen available
      to your muscles, either by sitting/lying in a position
      that is constricting your circulation or by breathing
      in patterns that reduce the levels of oxygen in your
      body? This is sometimes difficult to know on your
      own, so it is helpful to seek out an experienced teacher
      of pranayama (not just a meditation or hatha yoga teacher)
      and have him/her evaluate your practice.

      One of the most common things I have seen in pranayama
      practice is the tendency to push too early and long into
      an altered pattern such that one's body tenses around the
      breath, or one becomes breathless, spacey, or emotionally
      volatile. It would be unwise, when dealing with pranayama,
      to point to these 'symptoms' as 'noise from my inner
      chatterer' and press forward. These are signs of disruption,
      and the causes are often directly related to how one is
      practicing.

      When you experience disruption in your pranayama practice,
      it may help to back off on the frequency and duration of
      altered breath cycles. For instance, practice the altered
      pattern for 1 or 2 cycles and then return to several cycles
      of normal breathing or until you feel entirely relaxed again.
      At any time, if you feel tension anywhere in your body,
      thoughts or emotions, go back to normal breathing.

      The other issue may indeed be the position used for practicing
      pranayama. For many western folks, sitting in Padmasana for
      pranayama simply isn't productive. Most of us simply don't
      have the degree of hip flexibility necessary for most positions
      that require us to sit on the ground, including Padmasana and
      Sukhasana. The exception might be sitting on a block in Virasana,
      but again, if you wish to reduce your cramping, make sure you
      circulation is in no way impaired. The block must be high enough
      to provide ease to your knees and level support to your pelvis
      so that your central channel and spine can lift into alignment.
      Or you might try reclining pranayama or pranayama while sitting
      in a chair.

      In any case, if your muscle cramps do not resolve with simple
      fixes such as those articulated above, it is advisable to seek
      out an experienced teacher of pranayama to evaluate your practice.
      (Note: a teacher of meditation and/or hatha yoga will not
      necessarily understand the workings of pranayama.)

      Have you read Richard Rosen's book 'The Yoga of Breath'?
      It and David Coulter's section on breathing in 'Anatomy of
      Hatha Yoga: A Manual for Students, Teachers and Practicioners'
      are excellent companions to a pranayama practice. Rosen's
      book gives a practice outline and offers numerous options
      as regards sitting/lying positions for the practice. Coulter's
      book is highly informative as regards the physiological
      workings of pranayama.

      Good luck...
      Nina
    • Nina
      ... After reading what Gene had to say about magnesium, I did a search on oxygen, magnesium and respiration/pranayama. Really, there is a connection between
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 26, 2004
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
        "Gene Poole" <gene_poole@q...> wrote:
        > In any event, soaking in a tub of warm
        > water which contains about 2 cups of
        > dissolved Epsom salts, may prove an
        > efficacious remedy for diverse cramps
        > and spasms. But running a check on
        > any possible wasting of magnesium is
        > a good idea.
        >
        >
        > ==Gene Poole==

        After reading what Gene had to say about
        magnesium, I did a search on oxygen,
        magnesium and respiration/pranayama.
        Really, there is a connection between
        levels of magnesium, alkalinity/acidity
        of the body, oxygen/carbon dioxide
        homeostasis and breathing... which is,
        unfortunately, still beyond me to explain. :)
        Anyway, one thing I read was that one
        way to oxygenate the system is to soak
        in a tub of water with hydrogen peroxide
        added. Interesting... though I still have
        no idea how or if that works, I thought I'd
        toss it into the conversation.

        Nina
      • Andy
        ... wrote: Bob ~ you wrote: If you have a clean bill of physical things really not causing these symptoms from your physician, I think you
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 26, 2004
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
          <no_reply@y...> wrote:

          Bob ~
          you wrote:

          "If you have a clean bill of physical things 'really' not causing
          these symptoms from your physician, I think you have to point to your
          mind as the culprit. And this is a good sign, as it indicates that
          you are on the right track. It's like you have now started sawing
          through the bars to your prison, and they will soon break and never
          again bar your way to freedom. But during the sawing, the sounds of
          steel being weakened can make quite a racket. Persevere!"


          Underneath (or between) the words above, is the unstated assumption
          that meditation is an appropriate activity for anyone who feels
          compelled to try it. Another possible interpretation of the body's
          pain signals is that the person is not, at that time, ready for what
          may be seen during meditation. Sure, it could be the mind's way of
          derailing what it perceives as an "assault." And certainly, there
          are instances when one may find one's self persevering despite the
          pain. But I would approach this cautiously because maybe Pandora's
          Box is opening too quickly for the person, and the physical pain
          signals are a protection and not a distraction.

          The human mind/psyche is quite complex and there are a variety of
          people for whom meditation is contraindicated (dissociative
          personality disorder, e.g.). Just like a nutrient-packed food such
          as broccoli isn't for everyone (George Bush Sr.), I have a sense that
          meditation isn't for everyone. Some people just don't want to look
          inside in that manner, but they feel compelled to do so. And some
          are stubborn enough to keep at it even though they find it boring or
          useless. So, perhaps the mind/brain enlists the body to dissuade the
          organism via pain. Ironically, a strong sense of self, ego, needs to
          be present to see that the self/ego is illusory (at least in one
          sense). I think it was Jack Engler, in "Transformations
          of Consciousness" who wrote, "You have to first have a self before
          you can lose your self." :-) He goes on to elaborate on this,
          pointing out that a stable sense of self is required to handle some
          of what comes up (and is disassembled) during deep, persistent
          meditation. If the psychological infrastructure is weak, the
          evaporating of the illusion may prove too threatening.

          You can probably tell what's coming: imo, pain plays no role in
          meditation. If there is pain, it is a cry from some part of the
          mind, asking that it be attended to (even if the pain isn't of
          physical origin, although apparently both psychological and physical
          pain originate in the same regions of the brain). Physical pain is a
          message of some sort, and not always a distraction because the person
          is getting "too close" to seeing something. I think Deep Seeing can
          occur without the accompaniment of pain. The meditator just needs to
          be respectful of Its schedule. It "opens" at Its own rate (if it
          opens at all, of course).

          gassho
        • Gene Poole
          ... Think of it this way; Magnesium ions form the electrical environment which enables proper muscle tonus; (although, calcium ions are equally important) and
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 26, 2004
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina" <murrkis@y...> wrote:
            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
            > "Gene Poole" <gene_poole@q...> wrote:
            > > In any event, soaking in a tub of warm
            > > water which contains about 2 cups of
            > > dissolved Epsom salts, may prove an
            > > efficacious remedy for diverse cramps
            > > and spasms. But running a check on
            > > any possible wasting of magnesium is
            > > a good idea.
            > >
            > >
            > > ==Gene Poole==
            >
            > After reading what Gene had to say about
            > magnesium, I did a search on oxygen,
            > magnesium and respiration/pranayama.
            > Really, there is a connection between
            > levels of magnesium, alkalinity/acidity
            > of the body, oxygen/carbon dioxide
            > homeostasis and breathing... which is,
            > unfortunately, still beyond me to explain. :)

            Think of it this way;

            Magnesium ions form the
            electrical environment which
            enables proper muscle tonus;
            (although, calcium ions are
            equally important) and if in
            short supply for any reason,
            symptoms will occur.


            > Anyway, one thing I read was that one
            > way to oxygenate the system is to soak
            > in a tub of water with hydrogen peroxide
            > added. Interesting... though I still have
            > no idea how or if that works, I thought I'd
            > toss it into the conversation.
            >
            > Nina

            BRRRRRZZZZRRRRPP! <--- myth alert klaxon

            Using hydrogen peroxide
            internally or externally does
            NOT 'oxygenate the system'.

            Unfortunately, the proponents
            of hydrogen peroxide use, who
            are involved in MLM promotions
            of expensive 'stabilized oxygen
            beverages', etc, have been stating
            their hype for so long, that it has
            become an oft-repeated myth.

            I repeat; bathe in Epsom salts
            water, to alleviate minor muscle
            cramps. Please do not repeat
            stories which glorify hydrogen
            peroxide as other than an effective
            germicide and/or rocket fuel
            catalyst.


            ==Gene Poole==
          • Bruce Morgen
            ... Gene Poole wrote: In any event, soaking in a tub of warm water which contains about 2 cups of dissolved Epsom salts, may prove an
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 26, 2004
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              Gene Poole wrote:
              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina" <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                
              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, 
              "Gene Poole" <gene_poole@q...> wrote:
                  
              In any event, soaking in a tub of warm
              water which contains about 2 cups of
              dissolved Epsom salts, may prove an
              efficacious remedy for diverse cramps
              and spasms. But running a check on
              any possible wasting of magnesium is
              a good idea.
              
              
              ==Gene Poole==
                    
              After reading what Gene had to say about
              magnesium, I did a search on oxygen,
              magnesium and respiration/pranayama.
              Really, there is a connection between
              levels of magnesium, alkalinity/acidity
              of the body, oxygen/carbon dioxide
              homeostasis and breathing... which is,
              unfortunately, still beyond me to explain. :)
                  
              Think of it this way;
              
              Magnesium ions form the
              electrical environment which
              enables proper muscle tonus;
              (although, calcium ions are
              equally important) and if in
              short supply for any reason,
              symptoms will occur.
              
              
                
              Anyway, one thing I read was that one
              way to oxygenate the system is to soak
              in a tub of water with hydrogen peroxide
              added. Interesting... though I still have
              no idea how or if that works, I thought I'd
              toss it into the conversation.
              
              Nina
                  
              BRRRRRZZZZRRRRPP! <--- myth alert klaxon
              
              Using hydrogen peroxide
              internally or externally does
              NOT 'oxygenate the system'.
              
              Unfortunately, the proponents
              of hydrogen peroxide use, who
              are involved in MLM promotions
              of expensive 'stabilized oxygen
              beverages', etc, have been stating
              their hype for so long, that it has
              become an oft-repeated myth.
              
              I repeat; bathe  in  Epsom salts
              water, to alleviate minor muscle
              cramps. Please do not repeat
              stories which glorify hydrogen
              peroxide as other than an effective
              germicide and/or rocket fuel 
              catalyst. 
              
              
                
              As long as we're striving
              for factual accuracy here,
              hydrogen peroxide doesn't
              act as a "catalyst" but
              rather as an easier-to-
              handle (but less efficent)
              alternative to liquid
              oxygen in liquid-fueled
              rocket systems.
            • medit8ionsociety
              ... Dear Nina, I had told the email originator before posting the query about cramping/etc that I would not disclose their name or the specific technique, but
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 26, 2004
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                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
                <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                > Hi, Bob,
                >
                > Let's take a step back and look at the difference
                > between meditation and pranayama. For the purposes
                > of this discussion, let's assume that meditation
                > operates on the level of 'observing'. Pranayama,
                > on the other hand, while it may begin with observation
                > of the breath, does entail actively altering the
                > patterns of respiration in the body.

                Dear Nina,

                I had told the email originator before posting the query about
                cramping/etc that I would not disclose their name or the specific
                technique, but it is one of the most widely used of all meditations,
                and the pranayama that was being done involves only observing the
                breath, and does not "entail actively altering the patterns of
                respiration in the body." As for some of the rest of your commentary,
                the classic teaching is in agreement with your advise to "seek out an
                experienced teacher of pranayama", but it is of course possible that a
                meditation or hatha yoga teacher is knowledgable about pranayama, and
                I think you will find them to be few and far between, outside of the
                meditation/hatha teachers available to most people.

                Peace and blessings,
                Bob

                > For this reason,
                > I would not compare the cramps one may experience
                > while practicing pranayama necessarily with those of
                > meditation.
                >
                > The first thing that comes to my mind in response to
                > this emailer's question is: has your practice of
                > pranayama lowered the levels of oxygen available
                > to your muscles, either by sitting/lying in a position
                > that is constricting your circulation or by breathing
                > in patterns that reduce the levels of oxygen in your
                > body? This is sometimes difficult to know on your
                > own, so it is helpful to seek out an experienced teacher
                > of pranayama (not just a meditation or hatha yoga teacher)
                > and have him/her evaluate your practice.
                >
                > One of the most common things I have seen in pranayama
                > practice is the tendency to push too early and long into
                > an altered pattern such that one's body tenses around the
                > breath, or one becomes breathless, spacey, or emotionally
                > volatile. It would be unwise, when dealing with pranayama,
                > to point to these 'symptoms' as 'noise from my inner
                > chatterer' and press forward. These are signs of disruption,
                > and the causes are often directly related to how one is
                > practicing.
                >
                > When you experience disruption in your pranayama practice,
                > it may help to back off on the frequency and duration of
                > altered breath cycles. For instance, practice the altered
                > pattern for 1 or 2 cycles and then return to several cycles
                > of normal breathing or until you feel entirely relaxed again.
                > At any time, if you feel tension anywhere in your body,
                > thoughts or emotions, go back to normal breathing.
                >
                > The other issue may indeed be the position used for practicing
                > pranayama. For many western folks, sitting in Padmasana for
                > pranayama simply isn't productive. Most of us simply don't
                > have the degree of hip flexibility necessary for most positions
                > that require us to sit on the ground, including Padmasana and
                > Sukhasana. The exception might be sitting on a block in Virasana,
                > but again, if you wish to reduce your cramping, make sure you
                > circulation is in no way impaired. The block must be high enough
                > to provide ease to your knees and level support to your pelvis
                > so that your central channel and spine can lift into alignment.
                > Or you might try reclining pranayama or pranayama while sitting
                > in a chair.
                >
                > In any case, if your muscle cramps do not resolve with simple
                > fixes such as those articulated above, it is advisable to seek
                > out an experienced teacher of pranayama to evaluate your practice.
                > (Note: a teacher of meditation and/or hatha yoga will not
                > necessarily understand the workings of pranayama.)
                >
                > Have you read Richard Rosen's book 'The Yoga of Breath'?
                > It and David Coulter's section on breathing in 'Anatomy of
                > Hatha Yoga: A Manual for Students, Teachers and Practicioners'
                > are excellent companions to a pranayama practice. Rosen's
                > book gives a practice outline and offers numerous options
                > as regards sitting/lying positions for the practice. Coulter's
                > book is highly informative as regards the physiological
                > workings of pranayama.
                >
                > Good luck...
                > Nina
              • Nina
                Gene wrote: BRRRRRZZZZRRRRPP!
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 26, 2004
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                  Gene wrote:

                  BRRRRRZZZZRRRRPP! <--- myth alert klaxon
                  Using hydrogen peroxide
                  internally or externally does
                  NOT 'oxygenate the system'.
                  Unfortunately, the proponents
                  of hydrogen peroxide use, who
                  are involved in MLM promotions
                  of expensive 'stabilized oxygen
                  beverages', etc, have been stating
                  their hype for so long, that it has
                  become an oft-repeated myth.
                  I repeat; bathe in Epsom salts
                  water, to alleviate minor muscle
                  cramps. Please do not repeat
                  stories which glorify hydrogen
                  peroxide as other than an effective
                  germicide and/or rocket fuel catalyst.

                  Bruce wrote:

                  As long as we're striving
                  for factual accuracy here,
                  hydrogen peroxide doesn't
                  act as a "catalyst" but
                  rather as an easier-to-
                  handle (but less efficent)
                  alternative to liquid
                  oxygen in liquid-fueled
                  rocket systems.

                  Nina wrote:

                  What - are you guys rocket scientists
                  or something?
                • medit8ionsociety
                  ... big snip ... snip ... Yo Geneji, So you think you could slip in this brilliant sharing of wisdom between advise about magnesium and epsom salt baths and
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 26, 2004
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                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Poole"

                    big snip
                    >
                    > If a person desires freedom, to go
                    > directly to the ultimate challenge
                    > to conditioning, is to attempt to
                    > reason through the 'cause and effect'
                    > illusion.
                    >
                    > We live immersed in a vast field of
                    > 'effects' (what we call 'events'), and
                    > our main, chief superstition is the
                    > assumption of existence of 'cause'.
                    >
                    > In every 'case' I have investigated,
                    > it is attachment to 'cause', the fastening
                    > of blame, the creation of self-as-victim
                    > of 'cause', which has been the root of
                    > suffering.
                    >
                    > Even if we 'decide' that events are
                    > 'uncaused', even if we decide that
                    > there is no actual 'doer', those are
                    > merely beliefs, superimposed upon
                    > an infrastructure of assumption of
                    > cause-and-effect.
                    >
                    > If we have a 'therapeutic goal', it is
                    > to remove the 'original band-aid'.
                    >
                    > The 'original band-aid' was a remedy
                    > for a misdiagnosed 'trauma', which was
                    > in reality, a normal life-event, but
                    > unrecognized as such by the child-
                    > awareness. The original band-aid
                    > was 'gifted' by the parent, and is the
                    > beginning of the child's adoption of
                    > the parental style of _compensation_.
                    >
                    snip
                    >
                    > ==Gene Poole==

                    Yo Geneji,
                    So you think you could slip in this brilliant sharing of wisdom
                    between advise about magnesium and epsom salt baths and think that's
                    all that's gonna be said about it? Wrong oh vast one! You're pointing
                    to the "the creation of self-as-victim of 'cause', which has been the
                    root of suffering." Well, isn't this somewhat acting like a parent
                    applying "the original band-aid"?:-) Please expound on this, so as to
                    avoid our being fastened to some degree of blame for our "adoption of
                    the parental style of _compensation_."
                    Peace and blessings,
                    Bob
                  • Nina
                    ... commentary, ... an ... that a ... and ... Bob, My point was that just because someone teaches meditation and/or hatha yoga does not mean that a person has
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 26, 2004
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                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
                      <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
                      > <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                      > > Hi, Bob,
                      > >
                      > > Let's take a step back and look at the difference
                      > > between meditation and pranayama. For the purposes
                      > > of this discussion, let's assume that meditation
                      > > operates on the level of 'observing'. Pranayama,
                      > > on the other hand, while it may begin with observation
                      > > of the breath, does entail actively altering the
                      > > patterns of respiration in the body.
                      >
                      > Dear Nina,
                      >
                      > I had told the email originator before posting the query about
                      > cramping/etc that I would not disclose their name or the specific
                      > technique, but it is one of the most widely used of all meditations,
                      > and the pranayama that was being done involves only observing the
                      > breath, and does not "entail actively altering the patterns of
                      > respiration in the body." As for some of the rest of your
                      commentary,
                      > the classic teaching is in agreement with your advise to "seek out
                      an
                      > experienced teacher of pranayama", but it is of course possible
                      that a
                      > meditation or hatha yoga teacher is knowledgable about pranayama,
                      and
                      > I think you will find them to be few and far between, outside of the
                      > meditation/hatha teachers available to most people.
                      >
                      > Peace and blessings,
                      > Bob

                      Bob,

                      My point was that just because someone teaches meditation
                      and/or hatha yoga does not mean that a person has a regular,
                      dedicated pranayama practice and the experience that would
                      enable them to make a credible evaluation of someone's
                      practice - particularly if what may be causing a disruption
                      is a matter of fine tuning and not as easy as "relax and
                      breathe" or as dismissive as "it's all in your head."

                      Have a nice evening.

                      Nina
                    • Gene Poole
                      ... Uh-Oh! ... Ha ha... very funny, Bob... Do you have any choice, but to react to your feelings, in the way that you were exampled? And more deeply... do you
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 27, 2004
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                        >, medit8ionsociety <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                        > > "Gene Poole" blathered:
                        >
                        > big snip
                        > >
                        > > If a person desires freedom, to go
                        > > directly to the ultimate challenge
                        > > to conditioning, is to attempt to
                        > > reason through the 'cause and effect'
                        > > illusion.
                        > >
                        > > We live immersed in a vast field of
                        > > 'effects' (what we call 'events'), and
                        > > our main, chief superstition is the
                        > > assumption of existence of 'cause'.
                        > >
                        > > In every 'case' I have investigated,
                        > > it is attachment to 'cause', the fastening
                        > > of blame, the creation of self-as-victim
                        > > of 'cause', which has been the root of
                        > > suffering.
                        > >
                        > > Even if we 'decide' that events are
                        > > 'uncaused', even if we decide that
                        > > there is no actual 'doer', those are
                        > > merely beliefs, superimposed upon
                        > > an infrastructure of assumption of
                        > > cause-and-effect.
                        > >
                        > > If we have a 'therapeutic goal', it is
                        > > to remove the 'original band-aid'.
                        > >
                        > > The 'original band-aid' was a remedy
                        > > for a misdiagnosed 'trauma', which was
                        > > in reality, a normal life-event, but
                        > > unrecognized as such by the child-
                        > > awareness. The original band-aid
                        > > was 'gifted' by the parent, and is the
                        > > beginning of the child's adoption of
                        > > the parental style of _compensation_.
                        > >
                        > snip
                        > >
                        > > ==Gene Poole==
                        >
                        > Yo Geneji,
                        > So you think you could slip in this brilliant sharing of wisdom
                        > between advise about magnesium and epsom salt baths and think that's
                        > all that's gonna be said about it? Wrong oh vast one!

                        Uh-Oh!


                        > You're pointing
                        > to the "the creation of self-as-victim of 'cause', which has been the
                        > root of suffering." Well, isn't this somewhat acting like a parent
                        > applying "the original band-aid"?:-) Please expound on this, so as to
                        > avoid our being fastened to some degree of blame for our "adoption of
                        > the parental style of _compensation_."
                        > Peace and blessings,
                        > Bob

                        Ha ha... very funny, Bob...

                        Do you have any choice, but to react
                        to your feelings, in the way that you
                        were exampled?

                        And more deeply... do you have any
                        choice, but to have those feelings,
                        based as they are, on the very values
                        which formed the core of the parental
                        personality?

                        And did your parents have any choice,
                        about how they would feel, when... and
                        how they would compensate for those
                        feelings?

                        Just whose (ancient) program is running
                        this show, anyhow? Is the family way,
                        all the way back?

                        The consistent factors in all of this, are
                        involving our dire need to be successful
                        socially; how to 'act' so as to be included,
                        not excluded.

                        We have taken up an ancient burden we
                        do not understand, and carry it as our
                        badge of social belonging.

                        The 'family' and 'tribe' are the strongest
                        social units; those can make or break an
                        individual.

                        If a family or tribe is collectively 'sick',
                        and a child fails to successfully 'adapt'
                        to the sickness, the sick tribe/family will
                        eject that child, and define his as 'sick'.

                        We see a lot of tribal sickness these days;
                        and we can only cheer the child, who cannot
                        adapt.

                        Bob, the 'mind' is like a vase of roses; how
                        they are arranged, varies from family to tribe
                        to culture. What we need to keep in mind, is that
                        given the vase and the roses, we can adopt any
                        arrangement we choose.

                        Problem is, that if a strong wind occurs, the roses
                        return to their 'default' config, which was set in the
                        early days of family life.


                        ==Gene Poole==
                      • medit8ionsociety
                        ... Yo Geneji, Great stuff, and right on. I see real life examples of what you point to daily as I work with behavior-problem young girls, and see the way
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 27, 2004
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                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Poole"
                          <gene_poole@q...> wrote:
                          > >, medit8ionsociety <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                          > > > "Gene Poole" blathered:
                          > >
                          > > big snip
                          > > >
                          > > > If a person desires freedom, to go
                          > > > directly to the ultimate challenge
                          > > > to conditioning, is to attempt to
                          > > > reason through the 'cause and effect'
                          > > > illusion.
                          > > >
                          > > > We live immersed in a vast field of
                          > > > 'effects' (what we call 'events'), and
                          > > > our main, chief superstition is the
                          > > > assumption of existence of 'cause'.
                          > > >
                          > > > In every 'case' I have investigated,
                          > > > it is attachment to 'cause', the fastening
                          > > > of blame, the creation of self-as-victim
                          > > > of 'cause', which has been the root of
                          > > > suffering.
                          > > >
                          > > > Even if we 'decide' that events are
                          > > > 'uncaused', even if we decide that
                          > > > there is no actual 'doer', those are
                          > > > merely beliefs, superimposed upon
                          > > > an infrastructure of assumption of
                          > > > cause-and-effect.
                          > > >
                          > > > If we have a 'therapeutic goal', it is
                          > > > to remove the 'original band-aid'.
                          > > >
                          > > > The 'original band-aid' was a remedy
                          > > > for a misdiagnosed 'trauma', which was
                          > > > in reality, a normal life-event, but
                          > > > unrecognized as such by the child-
                          > > > awareness. The original band-aid
                          > > > was 'gifted' by the parent, and is the
                          > > > beginning of the child's adoption of
                          > > > the parental style of _compensation_.
                          > > >
                          > > snip
                          > > >
                          > > > ==Gene Poole==
                          > >
                          > > Yo Geneji,
                          > > So you think you could slip in this brilliant sharing of wisdom
                          > > between advise about magnesium and epsom salt baths and think that's
                          > > all that's gonna be said about it? Wrong oh vast one!
                          >
                          > Uh-Oh!
                          >
                          >
                          > > You're pointing
                          > > to the "the creation of self-as-victim of 'cause', which has been the
                          > > root of suffering." Well, isn't this somewhat acting like a parent
                          > > applying "the original band-aid"?:-) Please expound on this, so as to
                          > > avoid our being fastened to some degree of blame for our "adoption of
                          > > the parental style of _compensation_."
                          > > Peace and blessings,
                          > > Bob
                          >
                          > Ha ha... very funny, Bob...
                          >
                          > Do you have any choice, but to react
                          > to your feelings, in the way that you
                          > were exampled?
                          >
                          > And more deeply... do you have any
                          > choice, but to have those feelings,
                          > based as they are, on the very values
                          > which formed the core of the parental
                          > personality?
                          >
                          > And did your parents have any choice,
                          > about how they would feel, when... and
                          > how they would compensate for those
                          > feelings?
                          >
                          > Just whose (ancient) program is running
                          > this show, anyhow? Is the family way,
                          > all the way back?
                          >
                          > The consistent factors in all of this, are
                          > involving our dire need to be successful
                          > socially; how to 'act' so as to be included,
                          > not excluded.
                          >
                          > We have taken up an ancient burden we
                          > do not understand, and carry it as our
                          > badge of social belonging.
                          >
                          > The 'family' and 'tribe' are the strongest
                          > social units; those can make or break an
                          > individual.
                          >
                          > If a family or tribe is collectively 'sick',
                          > and a child fails to successfully 'adapt'
                          > to the sickness, the sick tribe/family will
                          > eject that child, and define his as 'sick'.
                          >
                          > We see a lot of tribal sickness these days;
                          > and we can only cheer the child, who cannot
                          > adapt.
                          >
                          > Bob, the 'mind' is like a vase of roses; how
                          > they are arranged, varies from family to tribe
                          > to culture. What we need to keep in mind, is that
                          > given the vase and the roses, we can adopt any
                          > arrangement we choose.
                          >
                          > Problem is, that if a strong wind occurs, the roses
                          > return to their 'default' config, which was set in the
                          > early days of family life.
                          >
                          >
                          > ==Gene Poole==

                          Yo Geneji,
                          Great stuff, and right on. I see "real life" examples of what you
                          point to daily as I work with "behavior-problem" young girls, and see
                          the way sickness and anti-social traits/behaviors are mimiced through
                          generations. Grandma was an asthmatic, and so is Mama, so the child
                          believes and insists she is, even though there are no signs or
                          symptoms whatsoever. And G-mom hit her kid, and Mama hit our client,
                          and she answers situations by hitting first and often. A nice thing I
                          do see is that sometimes the arrangement of flowers can be changed and
                          the innate beauty can appear. But we have a society that insists all
                          too often that after the flowers have begun to thrive, on returning
                          the children to the same family and conditions that emphasized the
                          thorns on the stems and not the wonderful aromas and beauty that have
                          been achieved. And yes, "it is attachment to 'cause', the fastening of
                          blame, the creation of self-as-victim as 'cause', ... (that) has been
                          the root of suffering". And in the majority of cases, soon after
                          returning to the original biological and environmental influences, the
                          flowers wither and rot. And for our girls, too often, a life of shame,
                          degradation and abuse continues.
                          Peace and blessings,
                          Bob
                        • Nina
                          ... The mind boggles at the conversations to be had, in which one repeatedly replaces My Family Way for I . How could one possibly remain attached to one s
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jun 27, 2004
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                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                            "Gene Poole" <gene_poole@q...> wrote:

                            > Do you have any choice, but to react
                            > to your feelings, in the way that you
                            > were exampled?
                            >
                            > And more deeply... do you have any
                            > choice, but to have those feelings,
                            > based as they are, on the very values
                            > which formed the core of the parental
                            > personality?
                            >
                            > And did your parents have any choice,
                            > about how they would feel, when... and
                            > how they would compensate for those
                            > feelings?
                            >
                            > Just whose (ancient) program is running
                            > this show, anyhow? Is the family way,
                            > all the way back?

                            The mind boggles at the conversations to be had,
                            in which one repeatedly replaces "My Family Way"
                            for "I". How could one possibly remain attached
                            to one's identity when it is referenced in such a way?
                            Beyond knowing that it exists and recognizing its
                            operation, is there any hope of moving beyond
                            "My Family Way"? It is doubtful, in the way that
                            it is 'impossible' to move beyond the ever fragmenting
                            bounds of a fractal. Who is to say that moving
                            beyond "My Family Way" is not simply... part of
                            "My Family Way"?

                            Nina
                          • tom_flou
                            Hi here is a physoilogical view. If Pranayam is practiced as paying attention to the breathing without changing its natural rhythm in any way, this part can
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jun 27, 2004
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                              Hi here is a physoilogical view.

                              If Pranayam is practiced as paying attention to the breathing
                              without changing its natural rhythm in any way, this part can hardly
                              have any adverse physiological effects.
                              But if the breathing is forced or reduced and so the natural self-
                              regulation of this very complicated and delicate process is
                              tampered with, the consequences can be rather knowledgeable.
                              The resting breath rate is about 15/min. securing a oxygen density
                              in the tissues at close to 100%
                              If breath rate is increased (Hyperventilation) it does not affect
                              the oxygen tension much, but it does markedly decrease the CO2
                              tension.
                              This causes an increase in free hydrogen ions and thus a lowering of
                              the pH of the blood and subsequently the body fluids. (Respiratory
                              acidosis) This has rather immediate and noticeable effects on the
                              body involved. Some symptoms are dizziness, confusion. (Even out of
                              body experiences and hallucinations)
                              As a result of the lowering pH of the blood, even a lowering of
                              calcium occurs, resulting in numbness and tingling in hands, arms
                              and in the face, spasms or cramps of hands and feet.
                              It has bees suggested here to breathe deeply at a rate of 60/min.
                              This will in a short time result in such a respiratory acidosis of
                              the body. Possibly with any number of the above mentioned symptoms
                              emerging. It is not a serious medical condition, as the person
                              affected if he does not stop, will finally pass out, thereby
                              automatically returning his breathing to normal and correcting the
                              offset blood chemistry.
                              Hyperventilation is an integral part of most panic disorders,
                              all of these symptoms giving the sufferer "proof" that something is
                              seriously wrong in the body.
                              The condition is treated with reassurance and if needed, placing a
                              plastic bag over the mouth and nose so the CO2 can reenter the body.

                              Magnesium deficiency is of rare clinical relevance.

                              Dietary or external applications has at best a very limited effect.

                              Cheers

                              Tom
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